{^_^} has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
{^_^} has joined #nixos-chat
evanjs has joined #nixos-chat
<samueldr>
you're not meant to use it
<samueldr>
you're supposed to let their gamble on other people's life drive
<samueldr>
funny how I can't opt-out of their large-scale experiment as a cyclist/pedestrian
<ashkitten>
samueldr: can i opt out of regular drivers?
<samueldr>
that would be nice
<ashkitten>
ftr i don't know anything about tesla but if you're referring to self driving capabilities aren't those generally meant to be safer than human drivers?
<samueldr>
meant to :)
<ashkitten>
(musk is a shitty capitalist pig that takes credit for other people's work but from what i can tell the people who actually do the engineering are decent?)
<samueldr>
but right now they aren't replacing drivers, except drivers get the feeling they are
<samueldr>
so the experiment is more social about drivers misusing the feature
<ashkitten>
oh, limited autonomous mode mistaken for full autonomous?
<samueldr>
yes
<ashkitten>
that is definitely a dangerous mistake to allow drivers to use
<ashkitten>
er, to make
<samueldr>
and the way it's advertised definitely creates confusion
<samueldr>
and AFAIUI automated driving will only be safer once no manual drivers are on the roads
<samueldr>
I don't know whether the in-between state of some full-automatic driving mixed across manual drivers is safer
<ashkitten>
i mean, the solution to all of this is just more public transit
<ashkitten>
very few people should actually need a car
<samueldr>
yeah
<ashkitten>
the thing i hate most about musk is he's so bad for public transit
<ashkitten>
his hyperloop shit is absurd and just a worse subway
<ashkitten>
haha what if a train, but it was cars instead
<samueldr>
I think the initial concept of long distance, not-in-your-car, pods was interesting
<samueldr>
but the whole "but in your car" is terrible
<ashkitten>
meh, just a worse train tho
<samueldr>
I did say _interesting_
<ashkitten>
heh
<ashkitten>
lots of things are interesting without merit
<infinisil>
What's so bad about hyperloop?
<samueldr>
the real "concept" part of the hyperloop could go much faster than trains because of the lack of physics constraints
<infinisil>
^^
<samueldr>
so for real long stretch it was an interesting concept
<samueldr>
smaller pods not requiring engines could also allow triage stations with a single entry/exit of your pod
<ashkitten>
because we don't have maglevs in the US?
<samueldr>
I think it was quite competititive with maglevs, no?
<ashkitten>
i don't know
<samueldr>
still, the original concept, not the totally dumb final product
<samueldr>
infinisil: what's so bad mainly is that it's just carrying your car around
<samueldr>
great if you are privileged enough to have a car
<ashkitten>
it just feels like it's a worse solution to a solved problem that just hasn't been paid much attention in north america
<infinisil>
Oh huh, didn't know about the car thing
<ashkitten>
china is doing great with maglevs afaik
<samueldr>
I can't say if "worse solution", but yes problem that hasn't been paid much attention
<gchristensen>
I do hope he (tries to) does a hyperloop to miami though
<samueldr>
been learining a lot about trains because of how dumb it is up here in Canada
<samueldr>
in the early 1900s there were three different *people train* companies operating up to the station in my city
<samueldr>
multiple railways
<samueldr>
separate ownership
<samueldr>
also freight separately
<samueldr>
then something happened
<samueldr>
and we have one railway, with one operator
<samueldr>
for freight
<samueldr>
and passenger goes on top of it
<samueldr>
freight has priority
<samueldr>
since it's one way most of the way, you get to wait until the way is clear in the direction you're going
<gchristensen>
(fl is famously, uh, not amenable to putting things underground)
<samueldr>
it would be even more trivial in my province to get great passenger train service on the north sore, it's basically a line
<samueldr>
but that would require planning for more than one electoral term
<ashkitten>
the thing i'm confused about is like
<samueldr>
which, as my city's mayor proves by his actions, is not easy
<ashkitten>
it's not really feasible to make a faster maglev
<ashkitten>
even if theoretically the hyperloop could reach hypersonic speeds, it wouldn't matter with passengers
<samueldr>
the original hyperloop had close to a vacuum between pods, so IIRC it was something about not having the air that made it more possible
<ashkitten>
most maglevs afaik don't even reach their top speeds over the course of their entire trip, because they have to accelerate so slowly
<ashkitten>
so your top speed doesn't matter if you can't reach it
<samueldr>
sure helps to enable the feature I'm testing before testing it
kalbasit_ has joined #nixos-chat
<cole-h>
colemickens: Don't know if you saw, but Solo V2 launched yesterday
<colemickens>
cole-h: I did, I bought more than one, then saw that OpenPGP isn't on the menu for sure. So... mixed feelings. But I do appreciate the pings very much :)
<cole-h>
:D
<cole-h>
I personally don't mind that. I'm trying to switch away from it at the moment :P
<cole-h>
And I saw some conversation between FiloSottile (age guy) and the Solo guys about an age applet :o
<gchristensen>
nice
tilpner_ has joined #nixos-chat
srhb_ has joined #nixos-chat
jackdk_ has joined #nixos-chat
manveru_ has joined #nixos-chat
gausby_ has joined #nixos-chat
manveru has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds]
jackdk has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds]
sudocurse has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds]
srhb has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds]
gausby has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds]
lunc has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds]
ece3 has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
<ashkitten>
so i would definitely need pgp support in the solo v2
<hexa->
there was a roadmap for age to support yubikey piv applets
<hexa->
and passwordstore.org
<hexa->
not sure how far along that is
lunc has joined #nixos-chat
<bbigras>
so age is like a new better gpg without decades of old legacy code? a bit like wireguard is for vpn?
<bbigras>
lovesegfault: I made a tailscale PR before you get greedy 😉.
<hexa->
age is a single-purpose tool
<bbigras>
it's nice that age supports ssh keys
<gchristensen>
age doesn't do a lot of important stuff that PGP tries to do, like key exchange and trust, and ... I mean, signing
<colemickens>
and origin authentication right? is that the same as signing?
* samueldr
thinks
<samueldr>
what happens with big.LITTLE designs with mixed core arches when some can do 32 bit and some cannot?
<samueldr>
I don't even know enough about how things work to know if it should make my head hurt or not at that level
<samueldr>
is it even legal?
kalbasit has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds]
kalbasit has joined #nixos-chat
slack1256 has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
kalbasit_ has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds]
<lovesegfault>
bbigras: :D
<lovesegfault>
I was about to!
<bbigras>
haha. I knew it!
kalbasit_ has joined #nixos-chat
endformationage has quit [Quit: WeeChat 2.9]
kalbasit_ has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds]
kalbasit_ has joined #nixos-chat
<ldlework>
lmao, when you hail mary `nix-env -iA nixos.libgen-cli` and it starts downloading
<ldlework>
fuckin nixos man
<ldlework>
aww it's a cli affair and not a curses thing
<ldlework>
still that's hilarious
<siraben>
ldlework: nooo why are you installing it imperatively
<ldlework>
siraben: i do that for things i haven't decided i actually want
<ldlework>
also howdy
<siraben>
heya
<siraben>
the nix flakes CLI help is so nice these days
<siraben>
even has examples!
kalbasit[m] has joined #nixos-chat
kalbasit[m] has joined #nixos-chat
kalbasit[m] has joined #nixos-chat
kalbasit[m] has quit [Changing host]
kalbasit[m] has quit [Quit: authenticating]
kalbasit[m] has joined #nixos-chat
kalbasit[m] has quit [Client Quit]
midchildan has joined #nixos-chat
kalbasit[m] has joined #nixos-chat
kalbasit[m] has quit [Client Quit]
kalbasit[m] has joined #nixos-chat
waleee-cl has quit [Quit: Connection closed for inactivity]
kalbasit_ has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds]
ece3 has joined #nixos-chat
kalbasit has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds]
nckx has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds]
ece34 has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
sudocurse has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds]
nckx has joined #nixos-chat
sudocurse has joined #nixos-chat
<cole-h>
What configuration languages are out there these days? I know the obvious JSON, YAML, TOML, but are there any others you guys like?
<bbigras>
dhall?
<LinuxHackerman>
Nix :D
<LinuxHackerman>
dhall is really cool too though
* cole-h
whines that there's no easily-googleable Nix serde crate :(
<LinuxHackerman>
I think yaml is a good choice though, terrible as some things about the language may be. In the end you can just plop in json and use your favourite language (nix, dhall, whatever) to generate it
<cole-h>
It's true.
<LinuxHackerman>
knot extends yaml though. don't be like knot. don't extend yaml.
<cole-h>
I wanted to use TOML cuz that's the Rust-y choice, but I really like YAML's ability to reference other values (e.g. with &key and *key)
<LinuxHackerman>
eww
<samueldr>
I still can't take significant indent languages seriously
<LinuxHackerman>
IMHO whatever you use shouldn't have smarts, just data. The smarts can be a layer above it (in nix or dhall or a custom python script or …).
<LinuxHackerman>
samueldr: are there situations where you think the indentation shouldn't reflect the structure?
<samueldr>
I don't know
<samueldr>
but making *invisible* characters control structure is bad
<samueldr>
I already think text files is a terrible idea for representing programming
<Ke>
what then?
<Ke>
all ideas are terrible, but we need something to replace them
<samueldr>
it can be what the IDE shows you if you prefer, but making that the format for saving and parsing and managing the language is not good
<samueldr>
I don't really want to go there at this time
<samueldr>
since I have a time-sensitive thing to attend to in a couple minutes
<Ke>
can you refine your idea so that it only supports static strong typing and mills cput architecture?
<cole-h>
LinuxHackerman++ Thanks, that actually helped me decide on something. Gonna stick with TOML and do the "smarts" in my code :)
<{^_^}>
LinuxHackerman's karma got increased to 6.000000000000001
<Ke>
\end{troll}
<samueldr>
nah, because I have no strong opinion about the capabilities of the programming languages, only that editing text files as a poor approximation of an AST is an artifact of limitations of previous eras we're iterating from
<samueldr>
and I have a strong gut feeling that text files are seen as a romantic perfect ideal here, so efforts towards a next evolutionary step are either not made, or scoffed at
<samueldr>
and I think the latter is what really gets me
<samueldr>
almost every time I speak about that I get strong feelings against, that it's a waste of time, text is plenty good
<samueldr>
I don't have any research, anything other than a desire to see what ideas can flourish once we stop for a moment and think past the limits of text files
<Ke>
you are probably right that people do have attitudes
<samueldr>
I want to see all ideas, bad, good
<pie_>
my pet idea in this category is typed pipes
<samueldr>
you're a typed pie_pe
<pie_>
omgnomgnomg
<pie_>
but one of my big doubts is whether its possible to do anything without just introducing a bunch of unnecessary complexity and just making everything harder, and xkcd +1 standard issues
<cole-h>
samueldr: I'd be really interested to see what an alternative could look like. My imagination is apparently not good enough, because I get heebie-jeebies when I imagine programming in any other way that I do now.
<samueldr>
that's why I want to see efforts and tries about it!
<samueldr>
cole-h: I figure a chunk of it may end up "looking" like text editing
<pie_>
and feature levels partly for backwards compat and partly for implementation effort adjustment and semantics compatbility leave my iffy
<samueldr>
but if the editor knows about the AST, you're at a better place for things like "structurally" editing
<pie_>
because as we all know from crypto, configurable protocols are too hard
<samueldr>
not sure how to word things that are mainly gut feeling
<samueldr>
and having the actual AST from the language used by editors, rather than a re-implementation is probably a good first step
<pie_>
sidenote theres a word for these structural editors but i cant remember off the top of my head
<samueldr>
also, imagine another way to program this way where you can edit the same code in "python like" or "ruby like" semantics
<pie_>
i *think* unison was developing one
<Ke>
samueldr: also our input devices do currently text
<Ke>
we may need alternate input devices
<samueldr>
where I open my code.whatever file, I see `def fn(); x; end` and you see whatever indent-based editing you prefer
<samueldr>
Ke: plausible
<samueldr>
in fact, encouraged to explore augmenting it that way!
<samueldr>
btw, my mouse doesn't do text ;)
<samueldr>
mainly
<Ke>
I could agree that storing indentation inside the code is stupid instead of having syntax aware editor render it
<samueldr>
chorded input with "navigation" primitives could do well to edit structure and code
<samueldr>
I'd also like something that completely makes it impossible to write syntaxically wrong code
<samueldr>
not sure how it applies!
<samueldr>
but I really want to see the next step, after what, 60+ years of text-based code editing
<samueldr>
but I can only be a cheer-leader, for now
<pie_>
all these block based programming languages are basically the "no invalid syntax" thing?
<samueldr>
yeah
<samueldr>
and an exploration of the idea
<pie_>
probably why theyre posed as nonprogrammer friendly, they remove the surface complexity of syntax
<samueldr>
but it'd be nice to have "block based" editing for power developers
<samueldr>
whatever _that_ means
<samueldr>
which, I don't have answers to
<pie_>
maybe one of the more meta questions is what if "syntactic" programs werent serialized graphs :P
<pie_>
but i dunno, humans seem to be pretty limited to interpreting program semantics rather linearly so
<pie_>
wooo physical spacetime
<samueldr>
pie_: whatever that means, maybe it's also a false dichotomy
<Ke>
also what do alternate forms of code representation mean for editor/ide complexity
<samueldr>
maybe we're thinking in... serialized graphs??... because they're limited to text based?
<samueldr>
Ke: good question
<samueldr>
and one that probably has no universal answer
<pie_>
i was saying more, i dont think we can things in ways that dont involve zooming in on linear sections and trying to decompose things to such
<Ke>
I would assume the underlying representation would always be a language
<samueldr>
I assume so, at least at the beginning
<Ke>
even if not meant to be seen by humans
<pie_>
on the human side we cant do better than cutting up graphs because our memory is limited
<pie_>
and our simulation capacity is too
<samueldr>
if you were to say to me: we got mobile nixos, and your next 3-5 projects under control, we're doing it for you... then maybe I'd look at that, and my first rough draft there would still be an AST
<samueldr>
if you were to say to me: we got mobile nixos, and your next 3-5 projects under control, we're doing it for you... then maybe I'd look at that, and my first rough draft there would still be an AST
<samueldr>
oops
<samueldr>
wrong window
<pie_>
theres probably existing itneresting resarch on this you just gotta find it
<pie_>
lots of stuff in the first few decades of computation
<Ke>
it's not like we don't also have simulink and then the couple of educational programming things
<pie_>
but a lot of the argument in more typed circles _is_ stop making everything stringly typed :P
<samueldr>
Ke: sure
<samueldr>
but I don't know of non-text-based programming _for programmers_
<samueldr>
there's lots of examples elsewhere
<samueldr>
like those horrible machinery programming things
<Ke>
pie_: I guess you know powershell has structured data in pipes
<pie_>
Ke: yeah ive heard about it
<cole-h>
samueldr: Replace all languages with MIT Scratch
<cole-h>
:D
<Ke>
pie_: would be easier, if you could define new file type so you could stat stdout and select output format based on that
<pie_>
im inclined to think text is very information dense and space efficient
<pie_>
or at least human interpretably so
<pie_>
theres probably reasons things converge to it
<Ke>
pie_: mostly it's fast to prototype, as it's human readable
<pie_>
doesnt mean its not a metastable hole, but it seems like a pretty deep one
<samueldr>
cole-h: why not? has anyone actually tried _working_ with that and making it a productive environment?
<samueldr>
text *sure* is a convenient abstraction
<Ke>
especially, if your output would be a complex struct, you would have to properly find the path to your data in the struct
<pie_>
kinda wish one of the guys in another irc channel was here right now
<Ke>
also text pipes allow processing data before it has finished
<pie_>
Ke: i havent really done much of the research i should be doing for this, but yeah if things arent unityped (i.e. stringly) it seems like things would need to negotiate their common denominator and...big oof
<Ke>
I guess if typed pipe produced always an array of typed atoms
<pie_>
Ke: stringy are an array of char typed atoms ;DDD
<Ke>
ie. each writewhatever syscall would produce atomic typed entity
<pie_>
really tho, just shove jq in between everything lel
<Ke>
sure, I mean making things better
<pie_>
yeah
<pie_>
random thoughts fllowing like, ok so do you do "object" buffering now as opposed to line buffering?
<pie_>
what if an object is too big to fit in a buffer
<pie_>
it all immediately goes "fully robust protocol engineering"
<pie_>
put a tcp stack in my shell x'D
<pie_>
(I have no idea what I'm talking about)
<pie_>
*in my libc
<pie_>
is plan9 with typed pipes microservices
<pie_>
the first thing i got hung up on was how the hell would you retrofit bidirectional communication onto pipes, at least to the extent of negotiating the protocol level and schemas
<pie_>
i didnt look into it, but can you get the file descriptor or pid of the process writing into the pipe? because if you can you could bypass the pipe and check for a predetermined file descriptor or something as a sidechannel for the typed pipe interface, and otherwise fall back to the classic pipe
<Ke>
you can pipe arbitrarily large objects with normal pipes too
<Ke>
sender just blocks until reader reads
<pie_>
sure but does it make sense to split an object at an arbitrary point. hm well ok i guess that just needs to be handled at a higher level
<Ke>
no big buffers needed on kernel side
<Ke>
you could also assemble the struct on new pages and pass the pages to the recipient
<pie_>
shared memory should only be used as an optimization here i think
<Ke>
it does not get split, if you force reader to accept it atomically
<Ke>
sure
<Ke>
passing pages is something that can be slow
<pie_>
that reminds me of another idea i had while being frustrated about csplit having to write its outputs to files instead of me just being able to select a result.
<pie_>
what if basic utilities could handle output and input on multiple file descriptors so you could write stuff like "map" or selecting a result with an index
<Ke>
kdbus people found that it can be reasonable to memcopy even megabyte to avoid messing with page tables
<Ke>
IIRC
<pie_>
huh.
* samueldr
has material for a first mainline kernel patch
<samueldr>
this is exciting
<pie_>
of course at that point youre basically turning bash into a real programming language <pie_> what if basic utilities could handle output and input on multiple file descriptors so you could write stuff like "map" or selecting a result with an index
<samueldr>
and not like typo stuff, feature stuff! (not to discount the work of people doing the others)
<Ke>
this is fundamentally different, if you need to create and store the whole dataset, instead of just generating it as stream
<Ke>
many tools are unimplementable this way
<Ke>
they only have resources to create streams
<Ke>
like if you would be streaming whole filesystem contents, like btrfs/zfs send
<Ke>
making that random accessible can be a fundamental change
<pie_>
would love to talk about this more but i need to force myself back to studying
<Ke>
I should work
<Ke>
6 weeks of paternity leave and I should package as much of my work as possible
<samueldr>
I should go to bed ;)
<Ke>
are you in quebec?
<samueldr>
yes
<Ke>
quite late yes
<sphalerite>
Well. The CO2 level in my room was… pretty high
<sphalerite>
(up until just now, a little airing later)
<energizer>
sphalerite: what happened?
<sphalerite>
energizer: just not enough ventilation, apparently.
<sphalerite>
The amount of CO2 released by hands is negligible compared to ambient levels of 300 ppm, and it is unlikely to be attractive at this level of release by itself.
buckley310 has quit [Quit: Connection closed for inactivity]
<sphalerite>
so yes but also no :D
<energizer>
yeah hand-emitted CO2 was never that attractive to me either
<sphalerite>
hm, the levels aren't going significantly below 820ppm with windows open on both ends of the apartment, regardless of whether I'm at my desk or not
<energizer>
do you know the reading outside?
<LinuxHackerman>
no, but I don't expect it to be that high :D
cole-h has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds]
<energizer>
there is also the issue of sensor calibration
tilpner has quit [Quit: tilpner]
tilpner has joined #nixos-chat
<LinuxHackerman>
hm, it's still rising steadily after I pointed a fairly powerful fan at the sensor to stop CO2 coming from me from playing too big a role
<LinuxHackerman>
true, but I'm hoping the sensor is calibrated at least reasonably from the factory
<LinuxHackerman>
because I don't have the means to create an environment to calibrate it in
<jD91mZM2>
That said, it performs exceptionally badly at its job and gets a stack overflow by just 1000 lol
ece3 has joined #nixos-chat
<LinuxHackerman>
with your evaluator? What about with "vanilla" nix?
<jD91mZM2>
In vanilla nix it can make it to 5000 before crashing with stack overflow
<LinuxHackerman>
neat
<jD91mZM2>
To be more exact, 7591. I have a long way to go to reach that efficiency
<jD91mZM2>
If you're curious about the infinite data structure itself, see "Infinite data structure" in https://jameshfisher.com/2014/09/28/nix-by-example/. I found it while trying to look for potential shortcomings of this evaluator, so I had them dealt with beforehand
<siraben>
jD91mZM2: oh yeah i played around with infinite lists in nix before
<siraben>
prime sieve works :P
<eyJhb>
worldofpeace gchristensen Did Office Hours die out?
<sphalerite>
Hm. Can I run a hydra machine under my desk to keep my feet warm?
<adisbladis>
sphalerite: nix-build '<nixpkgs>' -A chromium --check
<adisbladis>
Should keep you warm for a few hours :P
dingenskirchen has quit [Quit: ZNC 1.8.1 - https://znc.in]
<sphalerite>
but my laptop isn't near my feet
<eyJhb>
If you have a RPi, then you can keep a single maybe two toes warm
ottidmes has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds]
<adisbladis>
eyJhb: One arm per toe :P
<eyJhb>
^Exactly
<Ke>
he does have honeycomb, but it's only like 30W
<eyJhb>
Saving the world #GoGreen \s idk :p
<Ke>
case of my honeycomb is cold
dingenskirchen has joined #nixos-chat
<Ke>
protip, if you wear earplugs, building a silent system is a lot more feasible
<sphalerite>
hahaha
<eyJhb>
Ke: haven't you heard of the best trick?
<Ke>
I'll put rx550 in this weekend, I hope
<eyJhb>
You just stick a stick into the fans. Silent!
<worldofpeace>
eyJhb: energy and focus was shifted.
<worldofpeace>
and shifted away from being able to do them at that time
<worldofpeace>
well, more so shifted out of alignment to say it in a very delicate way.
<gchristensen>
covid killed my energy :(
<eyJhb>
Fair enough worldofpeace :) They were hyggelige when we had them, even when I wasn't really there.
<eyJhb>
Also,
<eyJhb>
,hygge
<{^_^}>
a Danish word for a quality of cosiness (= feeling warm, comfortable, and safe) that comes from doing simple things such as lighting candles, baking, or spending time at home with your family
<eyJhb>
Understandable gchristensen ! ALso, I guess having a kid takes some energy as well :p
ece3 has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
<worldofpeace>
what's in alignment now or tomorrow will always produce something different. I'm glad I did it. yeah covid had a big effect on energy.
<worldofpeace>
lately I have new ideas if time could allow them
lejonet has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds]
awaxa has joined #nixos-chat
lejonet has joined #nixos-chat
<eyJhb>
I feel dirty all over. Just fixed a networking issue on my router by restarting it.
lejonet has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds]
lejonet has joined #nixos-chat
<lukegb>
Ah, an email about "Study on your experiences during code reviews in open-source" with reference to nixpkgs
<eyJhb>
das_j: Too much clutter, you should have done `./justdoit` :D
<eyJhb>
What did it try to fix?
<das_j>
One Perl tool found the library, one did not. So I thought "hey let's just nuke it from everywhere so nobody finds it" because that made troubleshooting much easier
<das_j>
I was unsure where cpanm installed the garbage so running that and cpanm afterwards made the install location clear
<eyJhb>
That is like a parent mentality `Well! Then NOBODY gets it`
<eyJhb>
But at least it worked :p
<das_j>
yeah, that's me babysitting my centos because it needs someone to hold its hand all the time
<das_j>
no it didn't really work tbh. I get random errors from random tools now
<das_j>
Maybe I should just nuke the VM and start over
<lukegb>
tbh: I think ansible is fine if the way you use it is to bake a new rootfs image which you then make read-only, and you run it from scratch every time you want to do an update :p
<das_j>
Did you just say "Docker"?
<andi->
I think ansible is fine if you want to use it for mutation of whatever but don't treat it as tool to reproduce some previous state.
emilazy has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
emilazy has joined #nixos-chat
<cransom>
i find that process basically the smae for chef/puppet as well. long term state changes and updates always ended up being messy
kalbasit has joined #nixos-chat
kalbasit has quit [Quit: WeeChat 2.9]
<eyJhb>
Isn't Ansible basically SSH commands with groups?
<adisbladis>
eyJhb: Pretty much
<talyz>
eyJhb: you can declare some stuff, like "these packages should be installed" and such, but it's basically just running a script on a remote
<adisbladis>
andi-: What value do you think ansible is offering over a shell script?
<talyz>
you almost always have to manually make sure your actions are idempotent, which is a pain
<philipp[m]1>
I believe that ansible is meant for containers that you throw away and set up fresh every time you want to change their state.
<sphalerite>
srk: where did you get your esp8266 breakouts?
Jackneill has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
<adisbladis>
Is it even worth getting esp8266 breakouts?
<adisbladis>
Nodemcu boards are so cheap
<andi->
adisbladis: not much unless you have to deal with API + Auth + various remote systems in a single play. It also isn't terrible at sending emails based on some template you write inline. All in all not much benefit over writing your own scripts but it slowly adds up.
<philipp[m]1>
adisbladis: Ahahaha! Love it!
<talyz>
adisbladis: :D
<srk>
sphalerite: pcbway
<sphalerite>
ah ok, so you designed it, sent the design to them and they made $n of them and shipped them to you?
<srk>
its worth if you have special requirements, like no on-board UART, dc regulator
<f0x>
adisbladis: is it even worth getting esp8266 as opposed to esp32 :D
<srk>
yep, using kicad
<srk>
I can share it I guess but I think it needs an update for kicad 5
<sphalerite>
did you get them to populate them for you or do that yourself?
<srk>
diy
<srk>
it's pretty easy to solder
<sphalerite>
hmm ok
<f0x>
JLCpcb has great assembly service
<sphalerite>
and is it hard to design something like that with no prior experience?
<f0x>
(and generally cheaper than pcbway as well)
<srk>
not at all
<srk>
it's actually a pretty good first time project
neeasade has joined #nixos-chat
<adisbladis>
f0x: Last I checked esp8266 boards were substantially cheaper and had better firmware support from third parties
<adisbladis>
But this was a while ago
<f0x>
adisbladis: it's around 2 vs 3 usd i think, and lots more capacity. firmware should be rather equal, especially when just using arduino framework
<f0x>
(i tend to slap an esp32-wrover-b on everything nowadays hah)
<talyz>
philipp[m]1: well, that wasn't the stated goal of it last i tried to use it (the instructions even tell you how to make things idempotent), but it probably works better when you use it that way :)
<sphalerite>
f0x: what's that going to be?
<f0x>
sphalerite: 8x32 led matrix of 0402 leds, with a Holtek HT1632C driving chip
<philipp[m]1>
talyz: That's just take after having written a fair amount of ansible-playbooks trying to make them as idempotent as possible.
<f0x>
mezzanine connector to the second board, which has the esp32, serial, usb type-c
<talyz>
philipp[m]1: I see. I gave up when mine constantly broke and went for nixops instead, but being able to feels kind of like a luxury ;)
<srk>
it will warn you about unconnected pins and missing power flags for supply rails, not sure how are the power flags are actually used to check the design
ece3 has joined #nixos-chat
kraem1 has joined #nixos-chat
kraem is now known as kraem[m]
kraem1 is now known as kraem
<sphalerite>
R4 is a pull-up for the boot pin, which you then jumper to ground as necessary?
<srk>
yeah, for jumping to bootloader when programming
<sphalerite>
and R1 is just to make the chip always enabled, and you reset by removing and reapplying power?
<srk>
CH_PD pullup is required (at least for eps-07) don't remember exactly why. reset by disconnecting power, yes
<sphalerite>
AFAIU it's inverse reset, so if you don't pull it up the chip won't do anything
<srk>
my workflow with these is attach uart->usb, add jumper, flash nodemcu, remove jumper, reset, flash lua app, forget about it
<srk>
in appliances they are mostly powered by leftover USB chargers
<sphalerite>
and what's the setup on GPIO15 for? Why are there two resistors?
<sphalerite>
oh is one for pulling down the LED?
<srk>
that's just a blinky led
<srk>
yep, so it won't blink randomly :)
<sphalerite>
R2 is for stepping down the voltage and R3 for pulling it down, ok
<sphalerite>
I like the spare supply pins
kraem has quit [Quit: outta here]
<srk>
yeah, I was missing that on of the china stacked breakouts when one part was like a base with usb->uart and regulator and the other was esp with just one gnd and one 3v3 pin
<srk>
*on one of
<sphalerite>
stacked breakouts?
kraem has joined #nixos-chat
<srk>
uh, can't find pic. it has male/female headers connecting two boards
<sphalerite>
ah so you get a base and 20 of the breakouts, then you can use the base to flash/test/debug and then use just the breakout part in your project?
<srk>
possibly. I've always had to solder wires on them due to missing spare supply/gnd pins and sometimes add a regulator from 5V which make them not-so convenient to use in projects
<srk>
and when they are connected to base you can't connect any other things
kraem has quit [Quit: outta here]
kraem has joined #nixos-chat
bqv has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds]
bqv has joined #nixos-chat
<sphalerite>
srk: and how much spare current does the regulator allow?
kraem has quit [Quit: outta here]
kraem has joined #nixos-chat
<srk>
it's like 1A I think, esp can be ~200mAh peak transmitting with core at 160mhz
<srk>
maybe not even that, just a guess
rajivr has quit [Quit: Connection closed for inactivity]
<sphalerite>
nice
<sphalerite>
any chance you could help me design something similar for ESP32? I have all these modules which I'm not that keen on adding legs to… :D
<sphalerite>
I mean, if not that's fine of course
<sphalerite>
I'd also appreciate just a link to a good resource for learning to use kicad
<srk>
looks like there are few esp32 parts in kicad library, wroom/wrover/pico-d4
<srk>
you can also ask #kicad about tutorials
waleee-cl has quit [Quit: Connection closed for inactivity]
<bbigras>
for playing with electronics, is using a simulator useful for learning?
<hplar>
,hygge
<{^_^}>
a Danish word for a quality of cosiness (= feeling warm, comfortable, and safe) that comes from doing simple things such as lighting candles, baking, or spending time at home with your family
<hplar>
hmm ... google translate from norwegian seems more accurate than from danish
<{^_^}>
SN9 might launch soon https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n5kVZlnHZ3o: Ping for space stuff (edit this command to add yourself, see ",help"): infinisil Taneb ldlework etu philipp[m] eyJhb gchristensen __red__ red red[evilred]
<infinisil>
:o
cole-h has joined #nixos-chat
<infinisil>
gchristensen++
<{^_^}>
gchristensen's karma got increased to 419
<samueldr>
aww, aborted
<samueldr>
(but doesn't mean there won't be one later on)
<philipp[m]1>
So I hear that there is drama with the regulators because they are only allowed to land and not to launch.
<philipp[m]1>
Ah, no. That was that other thing that's going on.
<lovesegfault>
hm, seems like my old boot gens aren't being deleted
* lovesegfault
sighs
endformationage has joined #nixos-chat
<gchristensen>
adisbladis: I think I have to install beta bios firmware to use this card :x
<infinisil>
Fully aborted for today
<infinisil>
fwi
<infinisil>
fyi
<gchristensen>
thanks infinisil
* infinisil
now enabled EverydayAstronaut youtube notifications
<sphalerite>
srk: well, I watched the whole video so I guess I'm an expert now
<sphalerite>
I'm also very sleepy. I guess that comes with expertise.
<gchristensen>
this isn't good, I don't remember changing the password on the BMC and yet
<gchristensen>
oh. that wasn't the issue. I was being logged in, and then taken to th elogin page which was the page I was redirected from. quality.
<samueldr>
software doing exactly what it's been told to... the worst
<gchristensen>
this motherboard is terrible
<ashkitten>
i'm rebuilding my kernel with the hid-playstation patch series
<samueldr>
finally, they got to hide the playstation?
<ashkitten>
i feel like if i was using a different os i would never be able to do stuff like that because manually building and installing a kernel with patches is so annoying
<samueldr>
+1
<ashkitten>
samueldr: it was difficult, because it's so big
<infinisil>
+1
<samueldr>
I'll reming you all again how I'm using the gobohide patchset on my machines
<samueldr>
and since I started using NixOS, I only had to fiddle with it once
<samueldr>
it just works
<ashkitten>
it's so nice!
<samueldr>
and why did I have to fiddle with it? upstream breakage!
<ashkitten>
i have a rust program that i wrote and shoved in my initrd that beeps out a tune during boot
<infinisil>
Well, tbh NixOS is mostly just glue for upstream packages :P
<ashkitten>
i don't even know how i would do that in another os
<samueldr>
ashkitten: so good
<samueldr>
if I didn't hate sound making stuff, that'd be my jam
<ashkitten>
i guess i'd have to build the rust program myself, and somehow include it in the initrd with whatever generates that? and then i'd have to figure out how to add a line that runs it
<ashkitten>
but instead it's just preDeviceCommands = '' ( exec -a @initbeep ${pkgs.callPackage ./files/initbeep {}}/bin/initbeep ) & '';
AMG has quit [Quit: Quit]
<ashkitten>
(the `exec -a @initbeep` is to keep it from getting killed)