<samueldr>
that wasn't specificially against you or this discussion, too often I end up drained by that pattern
<samueldr>
where it seems the only thing worth to do is perfection at all cost
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<samueldr>
so I end up not only having to think about the original problem, but having to face the "perfection at all cost" side of things
<samueldr>
too many times I wished I just said nothing because it drove the discussion completely off rails
<joepie91>
right :)
<joepie91>
yeah I get what you mean
<samueldr>
oh, I think I have another way to say it: too often people get blindsided by the **goal**, ignoring steps to achieve the goal
<pie_>
Even if people agree on a basic idea they can get completely different weightings
<pie_>
I should find the thread I keep thinking of..
<pie_>
It was someone introspecting how while working with someone, they'd repeatedly agree on premises and end up with completely different conclusions
<samueldr>
in most situations where it happens to me, same goals, same ideals, but rather than deal with the current situation with practical solution, only the end goal is being sought
<samueldr>
often leading to nothing at all rather than an incremental benefit
<samueldr>
(again, not this discussion specifically, and not only here)
<joepie91>
there's another side to that coin, though; there are also quite a few cases where an incremental short-term improvement can disincentivize a long-term solution, eg. because the short-term improvement looks more effective than it really is, and makes it seem like the problem has been fully solved
<joepie91>
(this specific discussion is probably not a case of that)
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<samueldr>
yeah, though often I've seen similar arguments stall and stop any kind of progress, where instead nothing happens at all
<samueldr>
(though I do agree)
<samueldr>
"we've done enough, time to rest"
<samueldr>
"aren't you happy with what you have?"
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<samueldr>
wow, the writing for this series (earth final conflict) really goes more and more down the drain as seasons advance
<samueldr>
with huge plot gaps (not holes, simply unexplained things)
<samueldr>
season three had episodes in the wrong order so events that didn't happen yet were mentioned
<samueldr>
and now... AFAICT season four might have the same issue, but it's hard to tell for sure
<joepie91>
samueldr: are we talking about an actual TV show here or is this the "politics in the US" metaphor? :P
<samueldr>
tv show
<joepie91>
I can't tell anymore!
<joepie91>
heh
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<samueldr>
it almost feels like they took season four episodes, shook them around and picked them at random
<samueldr>
5 episodes in and there's no threads linking them
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<samueldr>
in fact, entangled invisible threads it feels
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<joepie91>
samueldr: didn't Firefly have a similar issue
<joepie91>
with FOX airing them in the wrong order or some shit
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<samueldr>
plausible, I don't remember
<joepie91>
and there being 3 different episode orderings and every Firefly torrent comes with a .txt with the recommended watch order and translations between the schemes, lol
<samueldr>
and I don't know if the DVD order would have followed
<samueldr>
(or whatever rip I watched years ago)
<samueldr>
though here that series seems like no one wrote any kind of wiki or deep dive into
<abathur>
has anyone written a bash loadable builtin?
<samueldr>
the fandom wiki is full of red links :)
<joepie91>
samueldr: I'm also reminded of Misfits
<joepie91>
where the first two seasons were fairly entertaining I guess? and then season three just did away with a key cast member and the dynamic totally changed without warning
<joepie91>
or what's the australian spy thriller? where season 2 was like season 1 never happened
<samueldr>
I can't even find information (without scrubbing deep into the partial wiki) about "when" it's supposed to be happening
<samueldr>
it started in 1999, and it *looks* like it's supposed to be ~20 years later
<joepie91>
Secret City, that's the one
<samueldr>
but never has there been a year shown AFAICT
<joepie91>
anyhow I should sleep
<joepie91>
I should have gone to bed like an hour ago actually :P
<samueldr>
here it was unclear whether a character died at the end of the previous episode, but here they're fully alive
<joepie91>
but shockingly I got caught up in watching a CS course
<joepie91>
I normally have extremely low tolerance for maths jargon and notation etc., so it's really quite unusual for me to want to keep following something about linear algebra
<joepie91>
and then suddenly an hour was gone :P
<joepie91>
so yeah, mv /dev/bed
<samueldr>
mv: missing destination file operand after '/dev/bed'
<abathur>
senile sysads probably give weird instructions to nursing home staff
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<FireFly>
funnily the last time I ended up pinged because of the show was *also* in a conversation about shows with multiple/confusing episode orderings
<ashkitten>
hi FireFly
<ashkitten>
i think your name is a different color in my irc client than the last time i saw you
<ashkitten>
i did some recoloring to reduce collisions
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<JJJollyjim>
heck, might as well be a whole new person
<ashkitten>
question to the room: what color is my name?
<JJJollyjim>
blue (bordering on cyan?)
<FireFly>
ashkitten: you're purple for me
<FireFly>
also hiya
<etu>
ashkitten: white here :)
<LinuxHackerman>
ashkitten: green but also the same as Jamie
<LinuxHackerman>
err I mean… same as Jamie
<sphalerite>
no, green!
<etu>
:D
<JJJollyjim>
lol for me those both show up identical Linux Hackerman
<JJJollyjim>
matrix can create some real hunter2 situations
<LinuxHackerman>
how so?
<ashkitten>
what's a ******* situation?
<LinuxHackerman>
hahahaha
<JJJollyjim>
just different people seeing things differently, i mean lol
<ashkitten>
i know, just playing off of it :D
<LinuxHackerman>
Jamie: no I think we see the same in our respective Elements — teal ashkitten, orange etu, purple me (both as LinuxHackerman and sphalerite), green you
<JJJollyjim>
yeah, i was talking to Linux Hackerman who asked "how so", which it's quite possible you never saw because of the stupid unreliable bridge
<sphalerite>
but I also have my weechat
<JJJollyjim>
:P
<sphalerite>
where the colours are all different
<ashkitten>
sphalerite is aquamarine
<energizer>
hexchat hardcodes a fixed number of colors :(
<LinuxHackerman>
it's not hard code if it's open source :pp
<energizer>
(just the number; the colors are configurable)
<energizer>
the way i feel about patching internet-facing C code, it might as well be closed source :)
<JJJollyjim>
oof relatable
<JJJollyjim>
that's a load-bearing number of colors
<JJJollyjim>
determined by trial and error to cause the fewest segfaults
<energizer>
i'd believe it
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<philipp[m]>
At 2010 edition of FOSDEM in Brussels, Niels Sascha Reedijk gave a talk HAIKU OS has no Future[22] cited the work of queer theory by Lee Edelman on queer futurity, and Mathew Fuller’s software studies, stating the Haiku OS is a “queer” operating system:
<philipp[m]>
“Our work will not ever define the future of operating systems, but what it does do is undermine the monotone machinery of the competition. It is in this niche that we can operate best. … Because even though we have no future, it does not mean that there will not arrive one eventually. Let us get there the most pleasant way possible.”
<philipp[m]>
I hope I cut that into enough pieces for the bridge to handle.
<pie_>
philipp[m]: do they do something weird with versioning
<philipp[m]>
They do but this is one of the nicest things I've ever heard somebody say about their work in FOSS.
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<gchristensen>
it'd be neat if I could ask {^_^} to ping me when chat volume drops in a channel
<gchristensen>
concretely I have a question for #nix-dev unrelated to the current topic, and I don't want to interrupt or forget
<gchristensen>
s/nix/nixos/
<siraben>
gchristensen: what's the question?
<gchristensen>
it'd be off topic for here
<siraben>
heh
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<ldlework>
lol asked gchristensen to help me switch from channels to git clone of nixpkgs, and i'm half-way through and he's like "I've got a call, let's continue in 20. Ping me? I might forget."
<ldlework>
uh hell yeah I'm gonna ping you haha
<ldlework>
my nixos-rebuild switch is broken XD
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<drakonis>
i continue to be impressed at how nixpkgs swells in size every week
<drakonis>
at this rate it will contain every package
<drakonis>
ldlework: flaaaaaakes
<drakonis>
alternatively, you can just have it point to a local clone of nixpkgs on rebuild
<ldlework>
drakonis: where is the nice guide that explains what they are and how to migrate
<samueldr>
> Failed to connect: org.bluez.Error.NotAvailable
<{^_^}>
error: syntax error, unexpected ':', expecting ')', at (string):471:18
<samueldr>
thanks
<V>
oh, I guess she works for them now? huh
<samueldr>
I really can't deal with non-descriptive error messages anymore
<samueldr>
if you're giving me nothing, at least own it and start up with "oopsie-woopsie we made a [...]"
<pie_>
:D samueldr <3
<pie_>
samueldr: youre starting to need the emotional cushion and i can understand it
<samueldr>
pie_: bluetooth+printer
<V>
I spent so much time bashing my head against bluez trying to get my headphones to connect
<samueldr>
name a better duo
<pie_>
my printer seems to have stopped printing a color
<V>
turns out you need pulseaudio running to be able to do that
<samueldr>
V: I still can't do it without blueman
<V>
samueldr: with headphones?
<samueldr>
(pairing audio devices)
<samueldr>
yeah
<V>
oh
<pie_>
samueldr: big oof
<V>
a) ensure pulseaudio is running, b) connect <addr> in bluetoothctl?
<samueldr>
V: the pairing
<V>
requires pairing first, may require running connect twice?
<V>
oh
<samueldr>
they sure work afterward
<V>
I didn't personally have issues with that
<samueldr>
and it's not like I pair every day
<samueldr>
V: was it you who had bluetooth serial interfaces for misc. uses
<samueldr>
I'm wondering if like the pulseaudio config thing, there's something needed for rfcomm to work
<V>
uhhhhh I'm not sure what I've mentioned about stuff I've done with RFCOMM
<samueldr>
only as far ar "using it" if it was you
<V>
and that's a vague enough description that it might be
<samueldr>
as far as* sorry ar
<samueldr>
probably not you, it was recent
<V>
I reverse engineered the proprietary serial protocol for my bluetooth headphones and wrote a status bar widget that grabs the battery level using it
<V>
but nothing else that fits that description
<samueldr>
nah, not you then
<V>
k
<samueldr>
someone's using inexpensive bluetooth UART modules for serial access to misc. hardware (e.g. SBCs)
<V>
ahh
<samueldr>
I know the printer requires rfcomm to work, so I wanted to double-check that rfcomm doesn't need anything special config-wise in NixOS
<joepie91>
samueldr: something something deprecated backend something, I ran into issues with this while reverse-engineering the RDTech USB meters
<joepie91>
which also use RFCOMM
<joepie91>
details are scarce, I think there was something on the arch wiki about it
<elvishjerricco>
Who was I talking with the other week about plasma5+xmonad?
<samueldr>
though I think the main issue I have here is bad software which wants to use `ps` even though it's not available to it
* samueldr
fixes that first
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<samueldr>
like, I think those are frontend commands that were removed
<samueldr>
I had an rfcomm connection going at some point when doing the "setup" wizard with blueman
<samueldr>
so I think it partially works
<samueldr>
but most of its handling seems to require `ps` which it doesn't know about
<samueldr>
oh yeah, a few sections down, "missing, implement with dbus"
<samueldr>
because nothing more convenient on the CLI than using dbus
<V>
dbus is easy enough?
<samueldr>
when you know it
<samueldr>
and if you have the proper backing knowledge for the feature you want to use
<samueldr>
it's, though, inconvenient
<V>
dbus is always inconvenient
<philipp[m]>
Finally going to satisfy my pipewire curiosity (listen to me not hearing any audio any more) :D
<samueldr>
I guess this software's pure garbage... added `ps` to its closure and still it apparently cannot see it
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<V>
samueldr: time for makeWrapper?
<samueldr>
it's already wrapped twice
<samueldr>
because wrapping programs fixes everything
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* samueldr
won't go there today
<samueldr>
it's totally unclear to me why `subprocess.Popen(['ps', ...` would fail that way unless the software somehow clears its PATH beforehand for no good reason
<samueldr>
connecting works, disconnecting breaks due to... other reasons?
<samueldr>
but darn it, using a full path just works
<samueldr>
now that I'm probably done with the bluetooth part of the problem
<samueldr>
what are the chances it's less painful for the printer part?
<samueldr>
>> You shouldn't need rfcomm devices on linux. CUPS supports RFCOMM devices natively via the bluetooth://protocol backed by bluez-cups.
* samueldr
sobs
<pie_>
sending hugs?
<__monty__>
Handling unicode across python 2 and 3 is so much fun.
<energizer>
use six
<gchristensen>
use mypy
<energizer>
also consider futurize/pasturize
<energizer>
pasteurize*
<energizer>
oh and unicode-nazi
<energizer>
(also yes it sucks hard)
<supersandro2000>
drop python 2
<eyJhb>
^ but I am guessing you are reffering to some Ranger stuff __monty__ ?
<supersandro2000>
yeah
<supersandro2000>
Python 2 needs to die out sooner than later
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<energizer>
yes. it is sad to see so much unnecessarily wasted dev effort though
<__monty__>
Dropping python 2 compatibility just because "python 2 needs to die" is misguided imo.
<gchristensen>
when do you think it shouldbe dropped?
<__monty__>
As long as Pypy3 isn't up to speed imo it's worth supporting.
<samueldr>
gchristensen: ~2010
<__monty__>
And even then it should only be dropped if it becomes a burden.
<supersandro2000>
the only thing I know about pypy is that it takes forever to compile in nixpkgs and draws mandelbrots
<energizer>
the reason to drop py2 is because it takes work to maintain compatibility and i can spend that time elsewhere (disclaimer: i have py2 services running on the web atm)
<supersandro2000>
you can usually drop quite a bit of code when throwing out python2
<energizer>
samueldr: it really wasn't a good idea until 3.6 or so imo
<__monty__>
If I drop py2 I might as well drop py3 as well and switch to a language I actually enjoy using : )
<cole-h>
Sounds good to me!
<supersandro2000>
rewriting something in another language for no good reason is misguided imo
<__monty__>
And yet you promote rewriting for py3.
<supersandro2000>
porting to python 3 should most of the time be not super hard
<cole-h>
"I actually enjoy using language B over language A" sounds like a "good reason" to me :)
<samueldr>
>> Printer name can only contain printable characters.
<samueldr>
isn't that ironic?
<samueldr>
and which of bluetooth://68847E610FBF isn't printable?
<infinisil>
Lol
<cole-h>
samueldr: Whoever wrote that must've patted themselves on the back
<supersandro2000>
porting something to a new numpy version when using undefined behavior all over the place is hard
<cole-h>
s/patted/pat/
<supersandro2000>
like why is that 3d matrix multiplied by that 2d matrix suddenly returning something else?
<V>
samueldr: the ZWSP I snuck in while you weren't watching
<gchristensen>
some aws form said only printable ascii, and it rejected a space :(
<supersandro2000>
I recently created a git branch on windows: 242-use-git-scripts
<samueldr>
gchristensen: can you print a space?
<__monty__>
Tbf spaces are the epitomy of non-printed characters : )
<gchristensen>
samueldr: yes!
<gchristensen>
samueldr: want me to send you a picture?
<cole-h>
hehe
<samueldr>
is the lack of printing the space being printed? or is the lack of printing meaning it cannot be printed?
<__monty__>
supersandro2000: You must not have ported any significant amount of python to claim a library version bump is harder to deal with than the cross between languages.
<ashkitten>
i tried to fax a whitespace program but when i used ocr on the other end the program didnt work :(
<V>
lol
<gchristensen>
y'know what can't be printed?
<gchristensen>
BEL,NUL, SOH, ENQ
<cole-h>
A car
<__monty__>
ashkitten: Maybe some of those dozen RLE bits got lost along the way?
<ashkitten>
you wouldn't pirate a car
<gchristensen>
cole-h: lmao
<samueldr>
gchristensen: some printers handled BEL with a bell!
<cole-h>
gchristensen: :D
<gchristensen>
fair
<gchristensen>
NUL, SOH, ENQ ... I'd say DEL but some printers have built-in whiteout
<samueldr>
I love software that silently does nothing
<samueldr>
no error message, but no expected outcome
<__monty__>
This is getting too silly >.< nn, peoples
<V>
samueldr: that roughly describes my expectations of most software
<supersandro2000>
__monty__: I think it probably really depends on the code quality. If you have such low quality code as the project I was talking about than anything is painful.
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<samueldr>
looks like our cups doesn't know about bluetooth?%
<energizer>
supersandro2000: systems that involve a lot of filesystem interaction like monty's (excellent) `ranger` can be tricky to manage in either version. in py2 there's silent coercion; in py3 there's surrogateescape. both tricky
<pie_>
purely functional <samueldr> no error message, but no expected outcome
<pie_>
the ideal program
<pie_>
and you can just optimize it away to nothing