<pie_>
shower thought: windows has the registry but doesnt really use env vars, linux doesnt have a proper registry
<pie_>
wat if both?
<samueldr>
pie_: dconf?
<samueldr>
it's even stored in an opaque binary format
<elvishjerricco>
cole-h: Ah. Yea I want to make my hardware-configuration.nix with --no-filesystems, manually writing in the necessary ones, and just using regular ZFS mount points
<pie_>
IDK i never looked into it but like what if you could have a _good_ registry :P
<elvishjerricco>
Using ZFS mount points while they're still in hardware-configuration.nix makes problems IIRC
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<gchristensen>
what if linux had a registry, making it even less pure
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<pie_>
well you have to do it right obviously :P but yeah
<pie_>
its unsafe to wield /o/
<pie_>
i mean, dotfiles are kind of a registry
<pie_>
and user dirs
<gchristensen>
a shame we have those :(
<pie_>
inb4 xdg standards are actually the linux registry
<veleiro>
the reason i asked is because up until now..
<veleiro>
sway is one of the best pieces of software that i've ever used
<Emantor>
Though the state of maturety obviously varies.
<veleiro>
ok i knew other wlroots compositors existed
<colemickens>
all I'll say is, I'm so sorry
<Ke>
I am a bit sad that sway ipc almost allows you to do everything, but not quite
<Ke>
eg. you can't target windows that are not focused
<Ke>
and I guess you can't listen to events
<lovesegfault>
colemickens: hum?
<Ke>
like maybe someone could attach a xmonad like manager to sway, would be funny
<colemickens>
lovesegfault: I was just making a slight joking swipe at the comment "sway is one of the best pieces of sw that i've ever used"
<veleiro>
some beef with the maintainer? i'm not a hard programmer
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<veleiro>
willing to be corrected
<lovesegfault>
colemickens: Ah, yes, I agree :)
<lovesegfault>
As a sway daily user it's... meh
<veleiro>
but it has fit my requirements of "always working" "free software"
<veleiro>
and "always works"
<lovesegfault>
Right, I think the "always working" is what you'll find objection to :P
<veleiro>
my only other experience with wayland is probably some exposure to gnome
<veleiro>
or plasma
<veleiro>
my first usable wayland was sway
<lovesegfault>
veleiro: Are you from a Portuguese speaking nation? (Your nick is the word for sailboat in Portuguese)
<Emantor>
lovesegfault: As long as one isn't using i915 or nouveau, of displayport multi transport (often used in laptops…)
<lovesegfault>
Emantor: so basically amd with HDMI works well and that's it :P
<lovesegfault>
I use AMD with DP and it works well
<veleiro>
no but i can speak port, i'm southern Murcia
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<Emantor>
lovesegfault: Yeah, sway unfortunately exposes lots of driver problems by using all the new shiny features. And the i915 driver has been perpetually broken since forever…
<lovesegfault>
veleiro: very nice, spain is a beautiful country
<veleiro>
I'm very interested in what colemickens opinion about wayland/sway
<lovesegfault>
Emantor: Right, I've definitely dealt with that
<colemickens>
gamma adjustment hasnt worked on any machine for months
<colemickens>
I can crash stable and nightly sway once a week
<veleiro>
i used all of your cachix when i first migrated to nix
<veleiro>
nixpkgs-wayland fwiw
<colemickens>
nightly sway has basically not worked on one or more machines for the past 5 weeks when I've spot checked
<lovesegfault>
Emantor: I'm hoping emersion's new renderer pans our for some cool stuff though :)
<lovesegfault>
vulkan support n'stuff
<colemickens>
sway is great, I dont mean to whine too much, but its not the most reliable tool in my toolbox thankfully :)
<veleiro>
lovesegfault i was speaking bad american english, im USA
<lovesegfault>
veleiro: Oh, I thought you meant actual Murcia lol
<Emantor>
lovesegfault: yep, renderer v6 looks great, a lot of the parts in wlroots are coming together. I am looking forward to the eventual glider integration, so sway can use hardware planes.
<lovesegfault>
Emantor: I read about that! Although I don't think I fully grok what hardware planes bring to the table
<veleiro>
in terms of applying system configs in nix, sway has never been the problem
<veleiro>
for me at least
<Ke>
veleiro: I can drink port, hahahaha
<veleiro>
maybe the UX itself still sucks
<veleiro>
just as i staid its not i3 compatible if you cant load the configs
<lovesegfault>
I need to get more port wine
<lovesegfault>
The best drink for a rainy day
<Emantor>
lovesegfault: currently sway uses two planes, cursor and primary. Hardware often exposes more planes, so you could assign windows to planes and only update the plane when the window contents change, not needing to render the other planes.
<Ke>
veleiro: someone asked me about that, was it just the layout save/restore that was missing?
<veleiro>
i am seriously looking at either distributing a wayland compositor as a UX
<lovesegfault>
Emantor: Oh! That is cool!
<veleiro>
or creating one, i assumed i'd be using wlroots
<lovesegfault>
Emantor: has anyone checked, calculated, or anything of the kind on what the power savings could be?
<veleiro>
Ke: hard no on sway supporting it, because its complex in i3
<{^_^}>
swaywm/sway#1005 (by ddevault, 4 years ago, closed): Layout save/restore
<lovesegfault>
Nix is a horrible piece of software 🤣
<Ke>
I do agree that not everything should be put to core sway, but the ipc could be slightly more powerful imo
<lovesegfault>
Like I love Nix
<lovesegfault>
but god does Nix-the-tool suck
<veleiro>
drew basically said absolute no, after looking at it a bit
<lovesegfault>
at least it's getting better
<veleiro>
look at that thread, there's some good ideas towards the end in how to do it
<veleiro>
and maybe there's something there
<lovesegfault>
Emantor: Curious, do you know what a plane translates to in HW?
<veleiro>
the unix philosophy is extremely important to adhere to
<lovesegfault>
(like, on the GPU)
<Emantor>
veleiro: the gist is that the maintenance cost for layout/save restore is to high. And I tend to agree. If none of the core maintainers are willing to maintain it, it doesn't belong into the software in the first plane.
<veleiro>
nix itself isnt necessarily built with that in mind
<veleiro>
systemd adherence
<lovesegfault>
I don't think the Unix philosophy is good for most things
<lovesegfault>
including Nix
<veleiro>
having said that its the only way i am familiar with and its good
<Emantor>
lovesegfault: No real idea about hardware level implementation, but they look like independent hardware buffers which are overlayed in the scanout engine of the GPU.
<veleiro>
there's obviously some cavets in these things, linux kernel isnt unix philosophy
<lovesegfault>
Just like systemd. Sure it's big but it does everything I want and works alright
<lovesegfault>
was buggy as hell in the beginning
<lovesegfault>
but such is life
<Emantor>
The overlaying is individually configurable in the scanout engine and varies a lot by hardware.
<veleiro>
but practially there are some things you need to consider
<veleiro>
Emanotr is right about the maintenance
<lovesegfault>
Emantor: Interesting. I expect each GPU model to have a different number of available planes then?
<veleiro>
Emantor oops
<Emantor>
lovesegfault: Yes.
<Emantor>
Thats where libliftoff steps in, its a library which unifies plane access and knows all the weird hardware quirks.
<lovesegfault>
Are they at least truthful or is there the usual HW bullcrap of "oh yes I have 5 HW planes *wink* *wink*" but you can only use 4, unless it's tuesday then only 3 KMS planes work :P
<veleiro>
lovesegfault is right about systemd too, as i said i use it
<Emantor>
AFAIK they are throuthful, pending limitations discovered when actually using them :D
<veleiro>
and its just lol to think otherwise
<Emantor>
*truthful
<veleiro>
i'd be interested to see how Guix works without it... at some point
<Emantor>
Its easy, they implement their own init system :-)
<lovesegfault>
Yup
<lovesegfault>
And their own kernel
<Emantor>
With drugs and hookers, as bender would say ;-)
<veleiro>
but the Guix guys arent as attractive to me as nix
<lovesegfault>
Emantor: :D
<lovesegfault>
futurama is great
<lovesegfault>
aye, Nix has the best looking developers
<veleiro>
i know they do but i dont have enough experience in init to have an opinion
<Emantor>
AFAICS Guix being a GNU project also somewhat struggles with unfree software. But no idea if this is true.
<veleiro>
only that i prefer unix-philosophy type ways of software
<lovesegfault>
Emantor: it is.
<lovesegfault>
There is no unfree software in Guix. You have to package it all yourself
<lovesegfault>
you can't even mention repos with unfree software in their community channels, AIUI
<etu>
oww
<lovesegfault>
they're very serious about being an FSF distro
<veleiro>
so i choose to be practical in some things in order to concentrate on goals
<veleiro>
nix is a midpoint for me, has a huge community compatitavely
<veleiro>
and is basically the inventor
<lovesegfault>
Right, same for me
<veleiro>
i've chosen to not go with guix, even though its hard free software and lisp
<lovesegfault>
It does make me sad b/c I would totally try Guix otherwise
<veleiro>
for sure! guix even has a tool to just import nixpkgs derivations
<veleiro>
i cant remember what it is atm
<lovesegfault>
What Nix really needs is a rewrite
<lovesegfault>
With no GC
<veleiro>
and they seem more immediately concerned for bootstrapping
<lovesegfault>
Maybe in another lang like Rust or Go
<lovesegfault>
But realistically that will never happen
<Emantor>
I started using Nix because its was the easiest way to keep my desktop and laptop in sync… Easy contributions, configurable modules, consistency, rollbacks and easy patching are very nice too :-)
<veleiro>
there was many reasons i started using nix
<veleiro>
this post was the other one! dealing with the new garbage in linux
<veleiro>
instead of apt vs rpm vs pacman it was turning into this this meta talk
<Emantor>
I don't think snaps and flatpacks are garbage. They solve a packaging problem for a lot of people and make applications installable across distributions.
<veleiro>
about snaps and flatpaks and appimages
<lovesegfault>
Nix is hard. Flatpak/Snap is easy.
<veleiro>
Emantor: i dont care about that at all! it should exist
<lovesegfault>
Flatpak/Snap is obviously the superior solution to 99% of people
<veleiro>
but for me personally, nix was an awakening of how to approach packaging correctly
<Emantor>
ah, okay. reddit.com/r/linux is really weird some of the time.
<lovesegfault>
any online Linux community is weird
<lovesegfault>
even LWN
<veleiro>
i'm long gone from the degenerates of reddit
<etu>
This is probably the only linux community I've found that works for me... :)
<etu>
Everything else that I've experienced is somewhat weird in too many bad ways
<lovesegfault>
etu: Aye, same
<veleiro>
its important to have a long term outlook on things and goals that agree
<veleiro>
with it
<lovesegfault>
Or, that's not true, Gentoo people were really nice and helpful
<etu>
lovesegfault: Too backwards for mee
<etu>
s/ee/e/
<lovesegfault>
always kind
<etu>
lovesegfault: With the views on systemd etc
<veleiro>
what's their views on systemd?
<lovesegfault>
etu: Yes, conservative, but it was a nice community
<veleiro>
too monolithic?
<lovesegfault>
unlike, say, Arch
<Emantor>
Arch developers are great, Arch community however…
<lovesegfault>
Although, I ran gentoo with systemd
<lovesegfault>
Emantor: Yes, exactly my views
<etu>
lovesegfault: yeah, for sure, I agree with that
<etu>
lovesegfault: So did I :)
<lovesegfault>
:D
<etu>
veleiro: They use OpenRC by default but supports using systemd
<lovesegfault>
And they are _very_ committed to maintaining OpenRC
<veleiro>
ok, well i only tried gentoo once about 2 years ago and my desire went away
<lovesegfault>
Gentoo is nice, if I weren't using Nix I'd be using Gentoo
* etu
was on gentoo for like ~8 years
<etu>
There's quite a bunch of people in nixos that has a gentoo background
<veleiro>
ok i'm not too familiar with OpenRC
* lovesegfault
was on gentoo for ~3y
<veleiro>
but i obviouly am for init freedom
<lovesegfault>
etu: Yes, andi- convinced me to switch by mentioning that :P
<lovesegfault>
so it felt like the natural next step
<lovesegfault>
another interesting distro is Void
<lovesegfault>
never used it though
<veleiro>
sakkai was helping me for the longest time to get the novena system working
<veleiro>
i wonder, i bet there's not a lot of people in Genoo that came from Nixos?
<etu>
Possibly, I'm not in the gentoo community so I don't have a feel for that :)
<Ke>
I would assume gentoo is dying, but who knows
<Ke>
I started getting frustrated, because of the too strict consitency enforcement
<Ke>
sure my system was inconsitent, but it did not mostly matter that much
<lovesegfault>
Ke: It's definitely not dying
<lovesegfault>
it has a healthy community of active devs
<lovesegfault>
and company involvement
<lovesegfault>
PlayStation uses Gentoo
<LinuxHackerman>
Emil Karlson: consistency enforcement? That sounds like more of a NixOS problem to me :>
<Ke>
true, but nixos is less effort that way, because it's has easier defaults
<Ke>
gentoo offers to automatically configure things for you, but that'll leave cruft in your config
<LinuxHackerman>
what do you mean by consistency enforcement though? I haven't used gentoo
<Ke>
if gentoo would have the options to change use to satisfy deps without writing the files, would be more in line with nixos
<Ke>
I thing there were similar autounmaks things, but you weren't supposed to use those
<Ke>
I mostly used stable, but occasionally bumped to ~arch to avoid bugs or something
<LinuxHackerman>
aah so it would be better if gentoo supported per-user package management :p
<Ke>
well I definitely do not like that
<Ke>
damn you home-manager
<LinuxHackerman>
huh, why?
<Ke>
granted I don't know how it works, but I suspect it's up to no good
<LinuxHackerman>
hahaha
<Ke>
I like having only one master config and only one top level store item pinned by the system profile
<Ke>
I am single user using all my systems anyway
<Ke>
I have no idea, whatever happens to packages added with nix -i
<Ke>
do they ever get updated or gc'd
<Ke>
if so, what are the semantics
<Ke>
can my system have some other state than defined in my git repo
<Ke>
+the one
<LinuxHackerman>
yeah, for single-user systems fair enough
<LinuxHackerman>
hm, I wonder how much of my user profile stuff I could move into system config.
<Ke>
well even for multi user system, how do the user profiles get maintained
<Emantor>
Ke: home-manager is essentially configuration.nix for your user profile. And you can integrate it into your system configuration, so it is consistent.
<LinuxHackerman>
I've been meaning to try switching to home-manager for a long time, but currently I'm just using a declarative user profile
<LinuxHackerman>
by the users!
<Ke>
Emantor: what about the nix -i I see in home-manager scripts?
<Emantor>
Ke: I don't use any of the home-manager scripts, I use it directly within my configuration.nix.
<Emantor>
So, I don't know, unfotunately.
<lovesegfault>
Yup, do not use the home-manager scripts
<Ke>
if something is too hacky to be maintained against current stable, I do not want it
<Ke>
this is why flakes scare the out of me
<Emantor>
lovesegfault: thanks.
<Ke>
lovesegfault: what does $tool give me that my custom script on top of nixos-rebuild does not?
<lovesegfault>
Ke: Depends. Do you have only one system that is the one you deploy from?
<eyJhb>
f0x joepie91 : Do you have a way to "force" users into a specific community? Wondering if I can seperate all my IRC stuff from "all the other"
<f0x>
eyJhb: hmm I don't think so, users need to join a community themselves
<f0x>
although various bridges have config to let their virtual users join them automatically
<supersandro2000>
that moment when your new server is named neon
<veleiro>
good convo guys!
<veleiro>
i would say nix is a game changer for me in dotfiles, but packaging in general
<veleiro>
and beyond that, i see how flakes can be a way to pin better and check
<veleiro>
for impurities
<veleiro>
then nixus solves the rest using pure nix, which is hugely undervalued
<veleiro>
when using a nix config i appreciate using *only* nix
<eyJhb>
f0x: Do you have any example of such a bridge? Because the ones I have looked at so far does not :/ Which makes it one big hell when you bridge a lot of things
<eyJhb>
> It's something we'll probably never do again, and has fully convinced me that federated protocols are a thing of the past in this world of ours.
<{^_^}>
error: syntax error, unexpected ',', expecting ')', at (string):460:45
<f0x>
eyJhb: the irc bridge does, and (some of?) the mautrix bridges like telegram
<eyJhb>
f0x: I must be blind then. Let me check that out :)
<eyJhb>
Are you running the synapse homeserver, or something else btw.?
<eyJhb>
Yes, I am blind. Thanks f0x .... Need to polish my techglasses
<f0x>
:)
<f0x>
just synapse, conduit is looking promising but not usable enough (and appservice support is only just happening)
<eyJhb>
Yeah, I would assume so as well. Guessing that IRC is the most active bridge :p
<eyJhb>
Did you look further into seeing if NixOS could be a option for you?
<veleiro>
thank you for the signal issue link eyJhb
<joepie91>
<eyJhb> > It's something we'll probably never do again, and has fully convinced me that federated protocols are a thing of the past in this world of ours.
<joepie91>
it's always disappointing when someone completely dismisses a concept based on one bad experience, with seemingly no root cause analysis...
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<eyJhb>
joepie91: Thought you would enjoy that. It is even more fun, that it is from 2016, and now Matrix has picked up pace
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<joepie91>
'enjoy' may be stretching it :P
<eyJhb>
'be disappointed at'/'you would have a reaction for it' :p
<__monty__>
This sounds familiar. What was the one bad experience?
<Ke>
lovesegfault: I maintain 6 nixos systems of which 4 at at work, I do prefer seeing them individually at this level
<eyJhb>
__monty__: federation with cyanogenmod
<Ke>
even though 4 at work are basically clones with exceptions for hardware compat modules
<eyJhb>
But I have also heard that federation can be a PIA with offline servers and such
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<f0x>
eyJhb: unfortunately did not have the time/spoons for further NixOS experiments yet :(
<eyJhb>
Some day when we invent more time in the day then f0x . Time is usually sparse! I can hopefully share my configuration when I have done a little more tinkering, maybe that could be useful
<f0x>
would be great :)
<eyJhb>
Atm. I am strugling with finding a good way to declarative give the registration files to Synapse, withouth manually copying stuff around... But I also have exams to catch up on, so... :D
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<gchristensen>
it is a good thing nix doesn't aggressively cache build failures... my noexec / is still enabled and I have to disable it from time to time
<eyJhb>
I can't build my system on noexec because of how DisplayLink is packaged... :/
<eyJhb>
Also...
<eyJhb>
gchristensen++ for sharing it :D It is a nice addition to my system
<{^_^}>
gchristensen's karma got increased to 400
<gchristensen>
noexec / is really not very meaningful anyway, since it is trivial to add a thing to the nix store and elevate it to exec
<eyJhb>
Ohh, congrats on the 400 :D
<gchristensen>
oh neat:)
<eyJhb>
Also, it is not like you cannot execute bash/sh things anyways, you just have to do sh script.sh, bash script.sh, etc. - But it is still a cool little thing! I most say, I rarely notice it
<gchristensen>
yea
<gchristensen>
true :)
<eyJhb>
Only when I have shebangs with nix-shell in my files...
<eyJhb>
But then I just nix-shell whatever.py, and it works :D
<sphalerite>
or even /nix/store/…glibc…/lib/ld-linux-x86-64.so.2 /some-executable
<eyJhb>
But Docker is 100% acceptable based on these comics. I might have to tell my teacher he can reuse them for his next book :p
<cransom>
i was thinking the OSI model, but no one thinks about that nowadays.
<eyJhb>
Since my first semester, we somehow always get to include it.
<eyJhb>
We have stopped explaning it now, but we did explain it each semester for 3-4 semesters I think.. And we even used it this semester (1st semester in my masters)
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<abathur>
has anyone here tested a shell prompt in CI?
<abathur>
not to be confused with putting your CI status in your shell prompt, which is apparently a thing
<eyJhb>
Wait what... Like when you cd into a dir and you get the branch you are on, the it pulls info from the CI at a interval abathur ?
<abathur>
I'm not really sure, I just saw a few different results for it while trying to look for testing a shell prompt
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<abathur>
ah, sometimes things aren't as bad as you fear; passing a heredoc to bash -i seems to work
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<bbigras>
,locate vips8
<{^_^}>
Found in packages: vips.dev, signal-desktop
<{^_^}>
Use ,locate <filename> to find packages containing such a file. Powered by nix-index (local installation recommended) https://github.com/bennofs/nix-index
<samueldr>
bbigras: ^ with nix-locate (command to search with nix-index) you can do much more
<samueldr>
really helpful with files "apparently" found in too many packages
<samueldr>
since it shows the full path, you can grep or anything else you fancy
<bbigras>
samueldr: thanks!
<pie_>
in other random news :P ,
<pie_>
Chrome browser, following concerns the move could curb rival digital advertising.)"
<pie_>
<x> “oh no, measures against fingerprinting and restrictions on third-party cookies might harm google’s competitors!” it’s not reasonable at all.
<pie_>
<y> sounds reasonable, unless you want google to turn the whole internet into its private panopticon and sharecropper system
<pie_>
<z> I remember feeling it ridiculous in Cyberpunk 2020 rpg when it described the cybernet to be just one company's server somewhere. how naive of me
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<colemickens>
Turns out cybernet is just the amazon inventory/warehouse AI gone rogue.
<samueldr>
misunderstood AI mistaking "termination [of employment]" for "termination [of life]"
<infinisil>
Arghh I give up, background jobs in bash are a pain in the butt
<pie_>
samueldr: x'D
<pie_>
infinisil: my very limited experience indeed suggests that as one of the lines i draw for "try to not use bash"
<pie_>
infinisil: are you using wooledge
<infinisil>
Signal handling, process groups, jobs, jobspecs, all that jazz, it's a mess imo
<pie_>
bash does not seem very good for multiprocess :P
<pie_>
a shame
<sphalerite>
infinisil: what are you trying to do?
<samueldr>
infinisil: does abathur have some kind of wizard-level library for your use case?
<infinisil>
I wrote a wrapper which is supposed to start a process, but kill and restart it if the main process receives a SIGHUP
* abathur
is a wozard
<samueldr>
woah
<abathur>
woahzard?
<infinisil>
And it works mainly, I think, but there's some special cases where it doesn't work, I think
<infinisil>
E.g. when the command it runs starts additional processes on its own
<infinisil>
And now I'm just trying to even see how I can kill a whole process tree, and there's so many things involved
<infinisil>
Apparently there's `kill <signal> -<process>` which sends the signal to the whole process *group*
<pie_>
the part where i decided "i hope i never have to deal with this" is looking at the manual of some special utility i forgot the pourpose of that couldnt solve something because IIRC POSIX?
<infinisil>
But that somehow doesn't work for SIGINT
<pie_>
i wish i could remember what it was
<pie_>
it had something at least tangentially to do with trying to pass the pid of an fg process to a background process...maybe?