gchristensen changed the topic of #nixos-chat to: NixOS but much less topical || https://logs.nix.samueldr.com/nixos-chat
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<colemickens> I turned on the auto controlmaster thing for ssh. It's cool and fast sometimes, but I have lost so much time to wondering why git/ssh is stalled when it's using a broken existing one.
<infinisil> colemickens: Ohh yeah same
<gchristensen> yea... and you can't ctrl-z a session using controlmaster
<infinisil> ControlPersist: If set to a time in seconds, or a time in any of the formats documented in sshd_config(5), then the backgrounded mas‐ ter connection will automatically terminate after it has remained idle (with no client connections) for the specified time.
<infinisil> That sounds like a good idea
<infinisil> Like, setting it to a time like 10 seconds
<colemickens> just as "My ISP Is Killing My Idle SSH Sessions. Yours Might Be Too." hits HN
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<armin> if your ISP does that, try KeepAlive in ~/.ssh/config or use a vpn i'd say?
<armin> well, actually both. and i'd change my ISP asap, too.
<colemickens> Ya I doubt mine is actually doing anything like that. I still consider myself very spoiled ISP-wise.
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<cole-h> I've recently discovered a phenomenon where working later at night feels a lot longer than working earlier in the morning.
<supersandro2000> other way around for me
<cole-h> 1745-2300 feels longer than 0800-1330
<supersandro2000> 8 to 13 feels short
<supersandro2000> but 13 to 17 feels long
<cole-h> It might just be because 1745 on is when things start slowing down (retail)
<cole-h> The only real slow part of 0800-1330 is 0800-0900 (when we're not open yet). Then everything kicks into high gear.
<samueldr> oh sure, retail time goes fast when customers are around
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<supersandro2000> oh, I don't work in retail and I probably couldn't
<supersandro2000> customers are ... complicated
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<abathur> that's one way of saying it :]
<armin> colemickens: well if you do, vpn and a default route through it would get you "sane" internet at home, but that's a bit tricky to set up
<infinisil> Not that I didn't know that already, but I didn't realize so many things were named after him
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<energizer> is there a service that will occasionally make http requests and record the status?
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<samueldr> third party?
<samueldr> I think statuscake does
<energizer> i meant a nixos service
<bbigras> prometheus with the blackbox thing. maybe a bit overkill.
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<energizer> systemd service+timer is so verbose...
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<pie_> do we not have an attr pointing to the latest python in nixpkgs?
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<LinuxHackerman> pie_: python3 :p
<eyJhb> Doesn't python default to Python3 now?
<eyJhb> energizer: stdredirect to /dev/null?
<etu> > python.version
<{^_^}> "2.7.18"
<eyJhb> Hmm, thought it was
<eyJhb> > python3.version
<{^_^}> "3.8.6"
<supersandro2000> no it doesn't
<etu> iirc there's some python standard thingy declaring that "python" is "python2"
<JJJollyjim> yeah
<JJJollyjim> i think it might have been written after arch made python=python3
<JJJollyjim> ah the recommendation has updated
<JJJollyjim> due to python2 eol
<etu> Oh
<JJJollyjim> it's now "If the python command is installed, it is expected to invoke either the same version of Python as the python3 command or as the python2 command."
<cole-h> what
<cole-h> Am I misreading, or is that just "python can be python3 or python2"
<JJJollyjim> i guess if i have 3.0 and 3.8 installed, and python3=3.8, python can't be 3.0
<JJJollyjim> but otherwise yes lol
<cole-h> kinda wacky
<JJJollyjim> (crucially the recommendation is that python2 and python3 should exist, which hasn't always been the case)
<JJJollyjim> (some distros used to just have python)
<etu> That recommendation kinda says nothing :D
<JJJollyjim> ** should exist if the relevant version is installed
<JJJollyjim> the recommendation reflects reality and what people should expect though
<JJJollyjim> because arch never followed the old advice
<supersandro2000> git-crypt or git-secret?
<cole-h> I prefer git-crypt
<cole-h> Mostly because I can decrypt it at-rest, but it's encrypted on GitHub and whenever it's freshly cloned
<eyJhb> NixOS just saved my ass on the exam.
<eyJhb> I only have vim installed, and I don't usually zoom in. So my theachers couldn't see what was written in Vim, and I couldn't zoom in easily (as I never do it), but in 10 sec I had sublime text instealled and could use the zoom in there... NixOS <3
<Ke> user testimonial!!!
<Ke> being able to install software is not really nixos exclusive feature
<eyJhb> Ke: But being able to do it THAT fast, and just work :D
<eyJhb> The part that took the most time, NIXPKGS_ALLOW_UNFREE=1
<supersandro2000> "zoom in"
<Ke> "enhance"
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<eyJhb> `Cannot upload crash dump: cannot exec /usr/bin/wget`, ahh nice that Teams will just upload crash dumps without consent
<sphalerite> eyJhb: the existence of /usr/bin/wget is interpreted as consent
<sphalerite> Clearly you haven't consented :)
<eyJhb> ;) Yeah, that might be what they write :p
<eyJhb> *pros of NixOS I guess.
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<ashkitten> just got flight sim 2020 and messed around with it in vr for a while
<ashkitten> it's extremely cool and good looking
<supersandro2000> also who had the great idea to upload crash logs with wget?
<eyJhb> supersandro2000: Widely available, but dunno...
<eyJhb> Also, hardcoded path.
<supersandro2000> what about linking statically curl in
<supersandro2000> at least they are not hardcoding credentials in php files...
<eyJhb> Are you SURE supersandro2000 ??
<supersandro2000> no...
<supersandro2000> "Alles zweifelhafte muss angezweifelt werden"
<eyJhb> Well, I would be somewhat sure as the backend is most likely .NET... But they might hardcode stuff in there :p
<supersandro2000> something like "Everything doubtful must be doubted"
<supersandro2000> strings | grep DB_ ?
<supersandro2000> Why do people want to monitor everything? It just sucks performance.
<eyJhb> supersandro2000: On in that way... :P That would be extra stupid.
<eyJhb> Because then they can monitor you!
<supersandro2000> I just killed my monitoring and replaced it by htop in a tmux and now the nixpkgs-review runs 10% faster
<eyJhb> Oh.
<eyJhb> I thought you meant webpages etc. as well
<supersandro2000> htop showed 10% CPU for monitoring but it probably used more
<supersandro2000> webpages are probably not a bad idea
<eyJhb> To monitor?
<supersandro2000> but do I need to know which of my 50 containers sucked 10% cpu at 10:03 this morning? I don't care that much tbh
<supersandro2000> eyJhb: yeah. monitor useful stuf not just everything
<eyJhb> Yeah some monitoring, but some do too much
<eyJhb> And I am not sure what facebook does/messenger. But it is the SLOWEST website ever
<supersandro2000> at least it shows you something eventually
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<supersandro2000> try to search closed issue in nixpkgs
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<eyJhb> supersandro2000: Haven't had a issue with that yet
<jD91mZM2> Hey, I just had an epiphany. What about a version of nixpkgs with entirely self-contained and configurable packages, and I mean self-contained. I mean the packages would contain their configuration as a passed-in parameter of execution and all dependencies would be injected into $PATH before launching.
<jD91mZM2> I wouldn't be surprised if this has been done before, because it would be so amazing. Your neovim configuration including terminal shell and dependencies could be nix-bundle:d (although that'd take a while) and sent to any system, and you would no longer have a system configuration but rather just a list of installed programs with overrides
<LinuxHackerman> jD91mZM2: that's roughly what I do for my user-level config, just a bunch of wrappers. I like the idea but it doesn't address the same problems as system configuration does.
<jD91mZM2> LinuxHackerman: That's true, it'd fit better as a replacement to home-manager
<jD91mZM2> But I really want a modules system for it, too. I may throw myself into the nixpkgs module system and see if I can get it to work for this purpose
<infinisil> Reminds me of my static/dynamic configuration idea in #nixos-dev from 1/2 days ago
<jD91mZM2> Oh, I haven't seen it, I'll browse back in the logs
<__monty__> Isn't this kinda how vim_configurable works?
<infinisil> jD91mZM2: https://logs.nix.samueldr.com/nixos-dev/2021-01-10#4455880; and it follows into the next day
<LinuxHackerman> __monty__: yep
<jD91mZM2> __monty__: Yeah I want something like that for everything. Also with a more transparent way to makeWrapper PATH everything into place
<__monty__> Sounds good.
<supersandro2000> eyJhb: I think they fixed some issue
<jD91mZM2> infinisil: Looks like it's different, but sure it'd definitely be useful. If anything just so I can finally stop having to rebuild my system each time I make a tiny change lol
<infinisil> jD91mZM2: I now think that's kind of exactly what you could use to implement what you want
<infinisil> Hmm
<infinisil> Maybe not no, never mind
<infinisil> But almost
<jD91mZM2> I don't know. Your idea seems to be that program configurations can be computed at runtime. My idea is that each program derivation will completely inject all of its dependencies in $PATH and the likes before executing, possibly overriding what was there before for purity
<infinisil> Hmm, maybe not even almost :P
<infinisil> Yeah so my idea is to make things *less* pure, while you want full purity, got it
<infinisil> jD91mZM2: Maybe check out https://github.com/Infinisil/nix-xdg
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<jD91mZM2> Regarding purity, our two ideas aren't necessarily conflicting. Just that I want the program configuration to be separated and result in self-contained derivations. Nothing like "oh I'm installing this language server globally because neovim requires it" - you'd *have* to do both
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<infinisil> Yea
<jD91mZM2> But absolutely, I don't care about purity as much when it comes to the configuration. If the user wants something dynamic, sure, I don't mind
<infinisil> (nix-xdg by the way also isn't exactly what you're looking for, but it provides a more convenient way to wrap binaries)
<jD91mZM2> nix-xdg looks awesome, but preferably there wouldn't be any config outside of the /nix/store at all
<jD91mZM2> What I'm saying is my /home would be super clean lol
<infinisil> I mean you *do* need some state
<jD91mZM2> Yes, yes, but the configuration doesn't need to be stateful
<infinisil> Yea
<infinisil> Though also a problem is that many packages don't distinguish between state and config
<infinisil> E.g. weechat just mixes it all in a single directory
<jD91mZM2> Disgusting
<__monty__> Some programs even want you to generate config *from* the program.
<jD91mZM2> Not a problem I care about solving necessarily. I just want to throw out home-manager basically
<__monty__> The irssi devs want this for example because they get too many support requests of people who introduced formatting issues.
<__monty__> Well, it gets harder to generate such a config.
<__monty__> Since they're no longer bound by "config should be editable text."
<jD91mZM2> I currently use home-manager for *everything* and now my config is ugly and I can't use any of my programs outside of this hussle I made for myself. So I want to go back and be able to bundle programs easily
<infinisil> I think the main problem is that it just takes work to wrap all these programs, a lot of it
<infinisil> And you're never done with it. Every new program will have to be wrapped
<infinisil> But I guess if there's some super convenient way to do it in most cases, that might not be so bad
<infinisil> E.g. maybe bubblewrap
<jD91mZM2> No more work than doing it in home-manager I think
<jD91mZM2> Well apart from infinite work right now because home-manager is leagues ahead
<__monty__> If you wrap each individual program you might have to update the wrapper every time the program updates.
<__monty__> With home-manager if you provide something in your environment, all the programs get access.
<jD91mZM2> I don't really see what you mean, but you know what, I'll try to implement a simple framework and we'll see how it goes
<ldlework> I too try to keep as much out of my system config as possible, offloading as much to home-manager as possible.
<philipp[m]> There are some ETF "Elevator Taskforce" vans parking in front of my house and now I wonder whether they write RFCs.
<philipp[m]> RFC0001: An Elevator must move up and down relative to the ground and may move in a number of additional arbitrary directions
<LinuxHackerman> jD91mZM2: https://github.com/NixOS/rfcs/pull/75 may also be relevant.
<{^_^}> rfcs#75 (by doronbehar, 21 weeks ago, open): [RFC 0075]: Declarative wrappers
<LinuxHackerman> philipp: hahaha
<LinuxHackerman> philipp: you mean MUST and MAY
<philipp[m]> Ah, yes. Of course :D
<jD91mZM2> LinuxHackerman: That would be a must-have, yeah. I guess what I'm trying to do is similar, but yet somewhat different.
<__monty__> RFC0002: An Elevator MUST enclose its passengers for the duration of the voyage. The ETF's (no relation) Escalators are a menace to society and common sense!
<ldlework> > Manage the environment of wrappers declaratively and deprecate shell based methods for calculating runtime environment of packages.
<ldlework> nice
<{^_^}> error: syntax error, unexpected ')', expecting ID or OR_KW or DOLLAR_CURLY or '"', at (string):461:1
<__monty__> jD91mZM2: I meant that with home-manager you'd put some stuff on the PATH for every program at once. So as long as the union of program PATHs is well-defined they all work. If you wrap each program with a PATH you then have to make sure that you update said PATH every time the program adds/removes a runtime dependency. In the former case you only remove things if everything has dropped them and you
<__monty__> add things if any of your programs need them, so you don't have to add the same thing for programs 2 through n.
<jD91mZM2> __monty__: Yes, if you update PATH and want it global Nix would currently (in my head) have to recreate each package where it could be used. In reality though, I'll probably only *add* to PATH instead of overriding it so you can still use home-manager for global stuff
<__monty__> But you want to get rid of global stuff? Otherwise, why bother with the wrapping?
<__monty__> I'm just saying it does sound to me like it adds a lot of maintenance work.
<jD91mZM2> __monty__: I want to get rid of the required global stuff, so there's no surprise like "oh no the shell is missing from this vim bundle". But if the user wants to use certain shell commands that aren't needed for the main thing to function, who am I to judge?
<jD91mZM2> The main purpose I guess would be to unify home-manager and nixos modules by adding a third option
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<eyJhb> Anyone that knows af something OneNote like for Linux, where I could e.g. throw a image into my clipboard, and then just ctrl+v it into the application, drag and drop it around? Not GIMP, etc. but a notebook style thing
<gchristensen> if you find one that is actually within striking distance of as good as onenote, let me know
<eyJhb> gchristensen: Will do! The main thing I "miss" from OneNote is just the easy of images really...
<gchristensen> I miss just about all of it ;_;
<eyJhb> Are there any other specific features that you miss? Wondering what it would be
<__monty__> gchristensen: You need to go to OneNote rehab and just forget about the features : /
<eyJhb> How well is crossover/wine support for OneNote?
<adisbladis> Does anyone have some nice setup to package wine applications?
<adisbladis> It would be nice to have wine prefixes living in the nix store somehow
<etu> ooh, that would be nice
<etu> Like, packaging an exe or msi file to have a readonly environment that doesn't break :p
<supersandro2000> hedgedoc md?
<supersandro2000> you cant drag the things around but everything else is doable
<adisbladis> etu: I was thinking about the rm desktop application ;)
<etu> adisbladis: :>
<adisbladis> It's kinda annoying they don't have linux support :/
<adisbladis> Especially given how linuxy the product is
<eyJhb> adisbladis: rm desktop application?
<adisbladis> eyJhb: https://remarkable.com/
<eyJhb> OH! Does that not run on Linux?! :(
<adisbladis> eyJhb: Not their desktop app, no.
<adisbladis> You don't need to use it
<adisbladis> But it would be a pretty handy way of accessing the cloud sync on desktop
<eyJhb> How weird.. But yeah, it would be cool with a "easy" way to package Wine stuff..
<adisbladis> Hmmm
<adisbladis> I actually did something like that while experimenting on https://git.m-labs.hk/M-Labs/wfvm
<LinuxHackerman> eyJhb: xournal is supposed to be good for notes
<etu> adisbladis: I'm thinking, declare wine package, declare src to download exe, declare key sequence to go through installer (like: tab tab, enter, tab, enter) or something
<eyJhb> `Xournal is an application for notetaking, sketching, keeping a journal using a stylus on Tablet PCs and other platforms`, might make sense for that yeah, but OneNote is also pretty good for stuff that is not skeching etc. :D (just opened it, and looked around)
<eyJhb> Also, anyone that have tried setting up a laptop for a old relative? Thinking of maybe sitting up a NixOS machine with the bare essentials needed. Anyone with success doing that? (the Windows PC atm. keeps getting screwed up in various ways)
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<worldofpeace> I think a nixos machine for anyone that's not a serious tech geek would just be torture 😀
<eyJhb> worldofpeace: If you only use the browser + mail?
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<jD91mZM2> I pushed my idea! https://gitlab.com/jD91mZM2/purepkgs
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<jD91mZM2> CC __monty__ LinuxHackerman infinisil (sorry if you're uninterested)
<jD91mZM2> I have only actually wrapped neovim yet, but the main point is that the module system can now be used fully
<adisbladis> jD91mZM2: I've had a similar dream once
<jD91mZM2> adisbladis: I wouldn't be surprised if a lot of people have this thought - it would help unify nixos modules and home-manager, as well as allow sending individual closures over. I think I talked to aaronjanse about this a while back too
<jD91mZM2> (individual [pre-configured] closures over [to other machines]) i accidentally some words there
<adisbladis> jD91mZM2: Pm :)
<eyJhb> jD91mZM2: Just to ensure I understand the concept (because I am not sure I do), 1. Each program is self contained, config, etc. 2. Each program only contains what it needs (e.g. there is no clutter in the form of I have added texlive to my main path, thereby the other programs also have it)?
<jD91mZM2> eyJhb: That's what I've thought of so far, although I wouldn't be entirely against allowing programs from the main path to be used too, just that the program should function without them
<adisbladis> jD91mZM2: Imagine what that means for building Docker containers with Nix
<abathur> I'm not in the shower, but it feels like a shower thought: if [ all of the work required to programmatically donate to arbitrary OSS projects (or in their name to a designated org) ], nix/nixOS could make it vaguely plausible to "support the software you use" in a fair way (i.e., not just shiny high-level apps, but the un-sexy stuff that makes them possible)
<jD91mZM2> adisbladis: Yeah that's true, containers would gain a lot from having some programs (but not necessarily all!) configured with nix
<__monty__> jD91mZM2: How does the transitive closure work? I.e., what if A depends on B and B depends on C, does A get C in its environment? And flipside, if both depend on D do you need to specify so twice or does A inherit B's dependencies?
<jD91mZM2> You could push over your zsh config to a container and instantly use your favorite environment to do all the stuff that you do in a container
<jD91mZM2> __monty__: I'm thinking you only get the flat dependency tree
<jD91mZM2> So no propagating
<jD91mZM2> A gets B's dependencies if it explicitly only depends on B, not C's, not D's.
<__monty__> B's *dependencies* or B's tools and libraries?
<jD91mZM2> oh, my bad, yes I meant B tools
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<jD91mZM2> Currently I don't do anything special with libraries, although I suppose we could put them in LD_LIBRARY_PATH so people can use purepkgs when nix fails to have something in the rpath automagically
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<pie_> i think that doesnt point to the latest though <LinuxHackerman> pie_: python3 :p
<pie_> on unstble there is a 3.9 and 3.10 and it doesnt point to it
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<LinuxHackerman> oh ok nevermind me then
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<cole-h> When nouveau crashes in the middle of typing: https://i.imgur.com/Sk04gt1.jpg
<samueldr> hehhhhhhhh
<samueldr> also on-brand that it's h for cole-h
<cole-h> :P
<LinuxHackerman> ooooh yeah that feeling
<cole-h> andi-: "These images have ben built" https://nixos.cloud/
<cole-h> andi-: s/ben/been/ :P
<LinuxHackerman> or "were built"
<cole-h> either/or
<cole-h> Fiiiine
<{^_^}> andir/nixos.cloud#12 (by cole-h, 8 seconds ago, open): index.md: fix typo
<andi-> cole-h: thanks!
<andi-> Someone moved the metadata-fetcher files for openstack around and now the build failes..
<cole-h> :D
<andi-> I somehow recall gchristensen being responsible for something like that :D
<gchristensen> was it me?
<gchristensen> did I break it? :P
<andi-> I haven't investigated yet
* gchristensen (~graham@NixOS/user/grahamc) has miraculously disappeared from #nixos-chat
<cole-h> lollll
<lukegb> So mysterious
<lukegb> Spooky, in fact
<samueldr> suspicious
<andi-> Great, haunted by the reproducibility issue with nixos VMs again..
<cole-h> We should just nuke all the VM tests and rewrite them.
<andi-> no that is not it
<cole-h> :P
<andi-> it is something that was substituted vs something that had to be built locally (preferLocalBuild…)
<kalbasit> What IRC client do you guys use? I used irssi/weechat for a long time. I switched recently to tiny due to its 'mentions' feature but I'm getting tired of its lack of many other features.
<andi-> kalbasit: weechat
<cole-h> ^
<cole-h> I like its extensibility
<kalbasit> It's been few years since I used weechat. Does it have a way to collect mentions in one place?
<andi-> highmon
<kalbasit> either of you have your weechat configuration in Nix? :smiley:
<kalbasit> I guess not :)
<cole-h> No, I change it too "frequently"
<cole-h> Or rather, I don't want to need a redeploy to test things like plugins :P
<cole-h> I basically just symlink my config into place
<kalbasit> Anyway you can share it (-minus sec.conf obviously)
<__monty__> Glirc2 is another interesting client.
<kalbasit> cole-h: thank you!
<cole-h> kalbasit: -irc.conf, -sec.conf
<cole-h> Though my sec.conf doesn't actually have anything in it now that I use a .pem to authenticate :P
<kalbasit> freenode supports .pem now?
<__monty__> +1 for SASL external with an SSL cert.
<cole-h> ^
<cole-h> It's so nice. No interaction at all.
<kalbasit> I want that! https://freenode.net/kb/answer/certfp <--- is this the documentation?
<cole-h> Yep
<kalbasit> nice
<infinisil> Hot take: iptables aren't that bad if you take the time to understand how it works!
<sphalerite> eh, my main problem with iptables is that it's really difficult to get from an unknown state to a known state.
<sphalerite> well, ok, maybe really difficult is an exaggeration
<infinisil> sphalerite: iptables -F ;)
<sphalerite> infinisil: yeah but you need to know the chains for that.
<sphalerite> oh wait no
<infinisil> Nope
<sphalerite> ok iptables -F && iptables -X
<infinisil> Flushes all of them if no chain is given
<sphalerite> TIL
<infinisil> We could totally implement a declarative firewall in nixos
<infinisil> (and not just `networking.firewall.extraCommands`)
<samueldr> I'm supposed to be an expert in my domain, kind of
<samueldr> but still, I just got caught for a couple of minutes by a stupid issue
<samueldr> my phone wouldn't charge
<cole-h> Have you tried turning it off and on again
<cole-h> ;)
<samueldr> it couldn't turn on, battery flat
<cole-h> (/s)
<samueldr> turns out it can't charge if any of the ends of the usb cable is left unconnected
<samueldr> left disconnected*
<__monty__> >.<
<__monty__> You should report that. Sounds like a serious usability issue for people who are OTG.
<samueldr> add wireless charging to usb cables
* samueldr writes to the USB-IF
<__monty__> Yet another thing you'll never know whether a USB-C cable supports.
<kalbasit> cole-h: where's mkOutOfStoreSymlink coming from?
<cole-h> kalbasit: home-manager
<kalbasit> ohh nice
<kalbasit> thanks
<kalbasit> cole-h: interesting that it's not accessible from lib.hm and instead it's in a config. I've never seen a library declared this way before
<cole-h> Yeah, definitely weird, but
<cole-h> ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
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<ldlework> I learned about the game Hex today.
<ldlework> It's pretty nifty. If you find Chess a little orthodox, Go a little too heavy, Othello a little too light -- then Hex may be just for you!
<ldlework> Very interesting mathematical properties
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<supersandro2000> while we advertise games: you should try out Factorio. It has a proper, free demo that works on Linux.
<bbigras> also known as cracktorio. it's great. it has multiplayer too
<bbigras> a ton of mods too. there's even a mod with jumping trains
<bbigras> there also electronic logic stuff. I should play with those.
<supersandro2000> that mod got a bit useless lately because trains stop if there is no rail connection between the beginning and the end
<bbigras> Literally Unplayable