<siraben>
dunno if that really clarifies the question :P
<siraben>
If I made nix-shell aliases (e.g. to enter a shell with Haskell libraries) it can be inconvenient to use offline
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<abathur>
samueldr: I think siraben means something like a pattern for defining idiomatic language-specific default environments with whatever tools they like to use for haskell or rust or python or whatever
<abathur>
so that a project-specific shell.nix is just specifying things distinct to the project, and not also user preferences?
<samueldr>
the one thing to keep in mind is that there's strong assumptions going *against* adding development packages to an "installed" environment
<siraben>
abathur: yes
<siraben>
samueldr: how come?
<samueldr>
that's the assumption
<samueldr>
things like C compilers won't work
<samueldr>
if you e.g. nix-env -i or add them to systemPackages
<samueldr>
that's because the shell may setup more things in the environment
<samueldr>
going to C again, things like NIX_CFLAGS that the wrappers consume
<siraben>
But clang seems to compile fine? Or is it problematic when you need libraries?
<samueldr>
yeah, more about the latter
<samueldr>
but any tool *could* work in unexpected manner when used that way, because of those assumptions
<siraben>
I usually use shell.nix + direnv but it feels tedious to keep having variations of the nix file per project
<siraben>
plus have to pin nixpkgs
<abathur>
I feel this general itch
<abathur>
I mostly just put my generic requirements in my systemPackages
<abathur>
linters and stuff
<abathur>
and I have just been lucky that nothing I need to work on requires conflicting linter versions :)
<abathur>
I feel like I may have found and starred or bookmarked an example of someone doing something along these lines in their dotfiles, but I haven't pursued it
<samueldr>
yeah, it's not an outright "won't work", but thing may break, and possibly in subtle ways
<samueldr>
that's even more true for when you need to "link" things from different packages together
<samueldr>
e.g. using a linter or even the just the compiler in isolation is likely to be fine
<abathur>
I guess the hitch is relying on PATH
<samueldr>
but resolving the paths for dependencies may not work if you were to e.g. install SDL to systemPackages and hoping -lSDL would work
<abathur>
if Nix didn't also need to lean on PATH, you could have something like myIdiomaticRustTools
<abathur>
I guess it's probably possible to rig something with aliases
<abathur>
and maybe resholve :]
<abathur>
so you'd have the tools aliased to store paths in the shell, but not on PATH
<abathur>
though some of those tools may behave weird wrt to PATH
<abathur>
(could do it with shell functions, for that matter, and be able to wrap each invocation with PATH overrides if needbe
<abathur>
yeah, actually
<samueldr>
it'd be a nice next evolutionary step to stop the environmental pollution that serves as our... main glue for everything
<abathur>
we'd just need a generator for the shell script
<samueldr>
because environmental pollution is definitely not hermetic
<abathur>
resholvePackage could take something like `... script = [ "bin/my_nix-shell-python-mixin.bash" ]; inputs = with pythonPackages; [ black flake8 ]; ...`
<abathur>
as long as you could generate the shell mixin...
<samueldr>
would be nice to have "buildable" nix-shell
<abathur>
and then the shell.nix could just have a shellHook = ''source "${my_nix_shell_python_mixin}/bin/my_nix-shell-python-mixin.bash}"'';?
<samueldr>
so that you could just ./result into a nix-shell when offline
<abathur>
nod
* samueldr
thinks
<abathur>
I guess if it was codified well enough nixpkgs could eventually have default empty language-specific environments that get folded into mkShell that you'd you'd in turn override with your package prefs
<samueldr>
I guess if one were to do what nix-build.cc does for nix-shell, but as a nix-build that produces a runnable script, it could wor
<samueldr>
work*
<samueldr>
basically get the drv.env, then run a snippet in bash in interactive mode, dropping the user into that shell
<abathur>
samueldr: maybe that should just be what `nix-build shell.nix` does?
<samueldr>
that can't be universal
<samueldr>
since nix-shell takes the env of any drv
<samueldr>
and uh, any drv nix-built is... not necessarily a dev environment!
<abathur>
okok `nix-build --shell any.nix` :)
<samueldr>
but yeah
<samueldr>
looking at it superficially I think it should be possible
<samueldr>
and maybe make `mkShell` buildable so its build produces a runnable script that drops you into said shell
<abathur>
BashOS
<siraben>
Pretty much as soon as I need to use libraries I start a Nix shell of some sort, but for random one-file Haskell/Rust/C things it's overkill
<siraben>
Though I might as well use ghcWithPackages in my home.nix
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<V>
[02:12] <joepie91> mmmm... https://twitter.com/voltagex/status/1354225155631837184 <- I checked the comments, the comment in question was mostly pseudo-intellectual rubbish ("two near-vulnerability bugs") and did more to highlight how trivially auditable doas is
<{^_^}>
https://www.nasa.gov/nasalive spacewalk happening on ISS: Ping for space stuff (edit this command to add yourself, see ",help"): infinisil Taneb ldlework etu philipp[m] eyJhb gchristensen __red__ red red[evilred]
<infinisil>
Oh neat
<infinisil>
Never seen a space walk live :o
<infinisil>
Dude this is heckin amazing, just floating freely right next to a spaceship zooming over the earth
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<pie_>
whoosh
<pie_>
went right over your head
<infinisil>
Hah!
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<adisbladis>
infinisil: Did you ever try diving?
<adisbladis>
I imagine it's the closest you can get without actually going to space
<__monty__>
There's parabolic flights.
<__monty__>
But diving's really fun in its own right : )
<__monty__>
Only have experience with very short freediving though.
* adisbladis
used to be really good at freediving
<adisbladis>
Now, not so much
<adisbladis>
I could do 20 meters no problem
<adisbladis>
But nowadays I only do scuba
<pie_>
how did you even end up doing all this ADVENTURE stuff
<joepie91>
I would've expected it to be less messy for the leading botnet in the world :P
<adisbladis>
joepie91: Tbh this is exactly what I expected
<adisbladis>
Except maybe more ashtrays
<pie_>
adisbladis: how are you so well calibrated
<adisbladis>
pie_: What do you mean?
<pie_>
Im kind of getting "ok but guys what was the plan here" vibes
<pie_>
as im watching this
<joepie91>
yeah lol
<pie_>
like, maybe dont stash the money in your sock drawer:
<pie_>
s/:/?
<pie_>
or maybe thats just the decoy money
<adisbladis>
That's only what they use to play monopoly with
<adisbladis>
The real stash is somewhere else :
<adisbladis>
:P
<pie_>
this is what it looks like when the plan works: ``` <pie_> Im kind of getting "ok but guys what was the plan here" vibes <pie_> as im watching this ```
<pie_>
joepie91: anything on how they got caught?
<pie_>
will we always be wondering how much is parallel construction? :P
<adisbladis>
pie_: Lol that happens to me all the time
<adisbladis>
I isually SSH in and play some music
<joepie91>
pie_: general botnet that distributed other malware I believe
<philipp[m]1>
It was a ransomware botnet. Don't know if they did other things, too.
<pie_>
joepie91's second link explains
<pie_>
so....what youre saying is new markets have just opened up? :PPP "<joepie91> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_BLOmClsSpc -- video of the Emotet (malware) people getting raided"
<joepie91>
basically :P
<philipp[m]1>
Was that market saturated to begin with?
<pie_>
valid but dunno
<philipp[m]1>
From the types of attacks I've seen they are still at the pretty low hanging fruits, so I guess there is still potential.
<pie_>
well, if you can do less low hanging fruit you probably have a lot of space to expand
<pie_>
but that also sounds like space that might be harder to keep
<pie_>
and also, like, requires significantly higher capabilities?
<pie_>
i dunno?
<pie_>
time to read a thesis on malware economics
<pie_>
well..maybe in a few weeks
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<joepie91>
gchristensen: also, this is defnitely gonna be a "wait, you can just... do that?" moment for a lot of people
<gchristensen>
tbh I'm still not totally convinced you can just do that
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<joepie91>
I mean, best case it's gonna get undone by the SEC and there's gonna be a looooot of questions about why hedge funds can manipulate the market but others cannot
<joepie91>
best case for them, I mean
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<FireFly>
ye
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<FireFly>
I do hope this will raise a lot of discourse about shorting with imaginary stock >.>
* FireFly
possibly optimistic
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<infinisil>
Damnit, why is CI so unreliable
<infinisil>
Like in general
<infinisil>
It feels like almost every time I contribute anywhere, CI fails with a totally unrelated error
<infinisil>
Seemingly with Nix and Hydra especially
<sphalerite>
andi-: curious, what led you to get a mac?
<andi->
work.
<andi->
I like the hardware but the software kinda sucks.
<andi->
Most likely will just use it as a remote terminal to my beefy workstation (as always)
<gchristensen>
I like that with macos I can just add my calendar, and with gnome I have to install evolution, configure my calendar, and then uninstall evolution
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<andi->
yeah, that was also kinda nice
<andi->
so it is a more modern gnome3 without any proper tiling features
<andi->
and that is driving me nuts right now. I am drowning in windows. Not sure which ones I can just close and which have to stay open for notifications to keep working.
<andi->
sphalerite: also there is no proper (linux) hardware on the market right now
<andi->
This M1 is really nice performance wise. I did play some Dota2 earlier and it was barely getting warm.
<gchristensen>
incredible
<andi->
Well it is mostly a full aluminum case which is really handy for getting rid of the heat..
<andi->
I also like the TPM integration into the OS. Not having to worry about keyfiles on the disks is nice
<andi->
I managed to configure the tiling WM by clicking all the checkboxes in such a way that I can't access the config settings anymore and my mouse pointer constantly resets...*sigh*
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<adisbladis>
andi-: Too bad the rest of the hardware sucks :/
<adisbladis>
Like input devices
<adisbladis>
Omg Apple keyboards are the friggin worst
<eyJhb>
adisbladis: EHEM!
<eyJhb>
Some people enjoy them! I do however not. They really are the worst.
<adisbladis>
eyJhb: Those who like them are wrong ;)
<etu>
eyJhb: I heard they are fine if you enjoy breaking for fingers.
<andi->
I've been trying to use the WM for a few minutes now on the native keyboard. My joints aren't linking it.
<adisbladis>
(only half-joking)
<sphalerite>
Some people enjoy pain ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
* adisbladis
has started looking at tiny ryzen laptops earlier today
<adisbladis>
As tiny as possible
<adisbladis>
With as much perf as possible
<eyJhb>
I agree :p My GF likes it however....
<andi->
with a nice gaming GTX from NVIDIA as otherwise the screen resolution sucks?
<adisbladis>
andi-: Hm?
<eyJhb>
But she hasn't tryed quality. And she will not get a mechanical keyboard! Fuck if I want to listen to keyboard smashing in LoL
<andi->
I haven't found a single AMD Ryzen 4k or 5k offering that wasn't <=FHD that didn't have an NVIDIA chip
<adisbladis>
eyJhb: Hot take: Most mechanical keyboards are garbage
<ashkitten>
adisbladis: what makes a mechanical switch good?
<gchristensen>
this is indeed "too" relational database
<adisbladis>
ashkitten: Not too heavy actuation, they should trigger in the right spot (something most switches fail completely at), a nice tactile bump, quiet
<ashkitten>
how do you feel about kailh box switches?
<adisbladis>
I'd easily pay upwards of $1000 for a split Topre keyboard
<adisbladis>
ashkitten: I hate them
<adisbladis>
I got my ergodox ez shipped with those because reviews
<adisbladis>
And I never ever used it until I found the zealios as a replacement
<adisbladis>
Kailh is hot garbage
* adisbladis
is obviously extremely opionionated
<etu>
:D
<ashkitten>
i ended up on my gf's iris with kailh jade low profiles a while back and i liked the clickiness
<adisbladis>
But tbh, I prefer any thinkpad keyboard over Kailh
* etu
wouldn't ever have opinions about things either
<etu>
My keyboard is the best keyboard I ever used.
<adisbladis>
I think everyone should try a Topre for a couple of hours
<adisbladis>
At least as a frame of reference for what an actually good keyboard "switch" feels like
<adisbladis>
And then try to go back to your mechanical ones...
<cransom>
i'm aghast that cherry browns are not considered the pinnacle
<ashkitten>
but they don't come in a cherry mx compatible variety?
<adisbladis>
ashkitten: No, they ara capacitive
<adisbladis>
are*
<adisbladis>
Topre _nailed_ the trigger point exactly at the tactile bump
<adisbladis>
Nothing I've ever used does that
<adisbladis>
Which means you can type very light
<adisbladis>
And pretty much only go ~50% of the way and still trigger
<eyJhb>
cransom: I have Gateron Brown and Cherry MX Brown :p They work fine, and a hell of a way up from my previous ones
<adisbladis>
The layout isn't optimal, but at least it's the right switch
<etu>
cransom: My opinion is that cherry brown is linear.
<samueldr>
adisbladis: ewww, putting Enter/Return in the middle of the keyboard
<samueldr>
oh wait
<samueldr>
I was being fascetious
<samueldr>
because I had assumed they mixed the left and right part up in the picture
<samueldr>
I *don't* actually have an opinion on that layout
<samueldr>
(and it's tab which I misidentified
<adisbladis>
I've been trying to get one since late 2017
<adisbladis>
It's impossible
<ashkitten>
that's a weird looking keyboard
<cransom>
there shoudl have been a /s on that. i have a keyboard with browns currently and they are just much nicer than any other cheap rubber membrane feeling gummy garbage i'd had previously.
<bbigras>
Are ortholinear keyboards usable? I mean I'm sure ymmv but it seems like an expansive thing to try out.
<eyJhb>
Me too, looks nice
<adisbladis>
bbigras: I tried it
<adisbladis>
I think it's stupid
<adisbladis>
They don't match any kind of natural positioning of your hands
<etu>
bbigras: Uhm, yes, if it's the ergodox type where the rows aren't in straight lines but the columns are.
<etu>
bbigras: Just a grid is not good.
<adisbladis>
etu: I'd pay very good money for that...
<bbigras>
I meant the grid ones
<bbigras>
thanks to you both
<etu>
bbigras: Proof of ergodox: Put your hand up in front of you, look at the difference of length in your fingers. Then you bend the fingers and see how they don't move in diagonals. :p
<bbigras>
I mean. they probably have some weird/silly explanation that the grid is even better for our hands.
<ashkitten>
my understanding is that ortholinear is grid, ergolinear is where the columns are shifted to account for finger length
* adisbladis
feels like the entire mechanical keyboard space is a race to the bottom :/
<ashkitten>
i don't get how people can use 60% keyboards and stuff
<adisbladis>
We reached the best key switch type in the 70s (or 60s?) and it only went downhill from there
<ashkitten>
like
<ashkitten>
i can't use anything but ergonomic keyboards
<adisbladis>
Buckling spring was all about bringing down cost of capacitive switches
<adisbladis>
It was the wrong optimisation for people who spend all day typing
<etu>
ashkitten: 60% is fine if you're fine with classical type writer layouts but don't want the extra cruft around.
<bbigras>
I was wondering too about smaller keyboard. One of the argument is more space for the mouse. I don,t care about that. Another one is having less distance to move with your hands. which I could like. maybe
<gchristensen>
the best keyboard was invented in the 80's and nothing has innovated on it further imo
<adisbladis>
gchristensen: Which one?
<bbigras>
I'm not a fan of the old clicky ibm ones. I'm thinking a modern not-to-noisy mechanical should be nice
<gchristensen>
the maltron dual hand which was "borrowed" by the kinesis computer ergonomics company
<adisbladis>
bbigras: I used to like those when I was a teenager, but I think that was mostly because of the "cool" factor
<adisbladis>
The actuation is way too heavy, and it's too noisy
<ashkitten>
gchristensen: the keyboardio model 01 has a pretty innovative layout imo
<adisbladis>
gchristensen: Not optimised for us homeless ppl though
<gchristensen>
it was my reductionist, absolute statement and I'm sticking to it
<ashkitten>
the palm fn key is pretty great
<adisbladis>
Right now I need something which collapses nicely into a bag
* etu
managed to sell off his second keyboardio model 01 recently
<etu>
Freeing up space in the office :)
<ashkitten>
i've had mine for i think 3 years
<ashkitten>
it's so great
<ashkitten>
i'm gonna instabuy the model 100 when that comes out
* adisbladis
wonders what a current ultimate road warrior setup is
<__monty__>
Where can I go to do karate kid-style training until I master bash's variable expansion?
<adisbladis>
__monty__: The school of hard knocks
<gchristensen>
hey I graduated from HKU
<adisbladis>
gchristensen: Hong Kong University? :P
<gchristensen>
Hard Knocks University :)
<adisbladis>
(I know what you actually mean)
<etu>
ashkitten: I was hoping for it from the original kickstarter, but while waiting, I got an ergodox instead from a groupbuy and started using that and liked the layout so never got started on keyboardio
<adisbladis>
Where I currently am is not a place you want to ship electronics to
<etu>
But I sold off my last one to a nixos person in spain that I found in some other group chat a while ago :) So I packed in some nixos stickers as bonus :D
<adisbladis>
So I need to trick someone into accepting the shipment and come visit me :P
<adisbladis>
etu: Nice
<adisbladis>
I also have a bunch on me just in case, though I doubt there are many software engineers around
<etu>
adisbladis: you know I would accept the shipment, but currently I'm not able to go because of reasons :)
<adisbladis>
etu: I know :) Perfectly reasonable
<adisbladis>
etu: I think I may be able to convince my dad
<__monty__>
Is there a debugger for bash? Or a way to trace execution?
<gchristensen>
set -x
<adisbladis>
__monty__: set -x
<adisbladis>
etu: I might have to wait until I get to another country :/
<adisbladis>
The next one I plan to go to "only" has 25% import taxes
<adisbladis>
Instead of the 50%+ here
<etu>
adisbladis: Makes sense
<adisbladis>
I really want that monitor
<__monty__>
Ok, so I can indeed find the offensive line in the set -x output: 'less -R' -R --CLEAR-SCREEN '--prompt=> scroll for more, h for help, or q to quit'
<__monty__>
But how do I trace this back to where it was composed like this? The single quotes around `'less -R'` are the problem.
<bbigras>
gchristensen: do you think you'll have time to check my PR soon? I don't want to rush you.
<adisbladis>
-chat is not for talking about PRs imo
<__monty__>
Does anyone else have PAGER="less -R" set?
<gchristensen>
adisbladis: unrelated :')
<bbigras>
adisbladis: it's not about a nix PR
<etu>
Then it's fine :D
<adisbladis>
__monty__: Yes
<adisbladis>
For the last decade+
<adisbladis>
Alrgiht, then it's fine :P It's just a lot of people seem to think -chat is a shortcut to get reviews
<adisbladis>
Carry on
<samueldr>
adisbladis++ it's the thought that counts
<{^_^}>
adisbladis's karma got increased to 129
<__monty__>
adisbladis: Set explicitly or somehow set by nixos/-darwin?
<adisbladis>
__monty__: Tbh idk where it's coming from :D
<gchristensen>
hey actually joepie91 is there something weird about overwriting `test`?
<joepie91>
gchristensen: it originally occurred for a var named `choice`
<joepie91>
this is just my repro case
<gchristensen>
ah
<gchristensen>
I don't see a reproducer on that binary here
<samueldr>
same
<joepie91>
welp
<joepie91>
guess I'll just have to not hit ctrl+c 🤷♂️
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<samueldr>
the console not being flushed before the kernel panics really is getting on my nerves
<andi->
some wayland wm maintainer would say: It isn't supposed to panic!
<samueldr>
haha
<gchristensen>
haha
<gchristensen>
great point
<andi->
garr, who comes up with these touch gestures? two finger swipe, three finger swipe, four finger swipe, four finger strech + thumb movement.
<samueldr>
andi-: don't forget 3D touch
<andi->
Also very good that left swipe with two fingers might trigger deletion in some applications (swipe it away!) and three fingers change workspace.
<samueldr>
(which is being abandoned)
<samueldr>
3D touch, while a cool technical feat, is an horror in accessibility
<samueldr>
and discoverability
<samueldr>
yeah, swipe-to-delete is a scourge
<samueldr>
imagine having a drawer-style side-menu in your app
<andi->
Yeah. I mean they have a help page showing a three finger swipe to bring up notifcations. The image suggests to swipe from the middle. The text says to sway from the far right.
<samueldr>
and swipe-to-delete
<samueldr>
and obviously no undo
<andi->
s/sway/swipe/
<andi->
yeah
<samueldr>
not even an ephemeral undo notice
<samueldr>
(which is another hell topic)
<andi->
I can securely ssh into my nixos box using iterm2. That works flawless so far.
<andi->
Everything else feels very rough.
<samueldr>
got a new employer/client forcing macOS on you?
<andi->
They aren't forcing it on me but they offered to send me a notebook to work with..
<andi->
So I wanted to try out this new mac hardware
<andi->
still working from my workstation / nixos notebook for the most part.
* samueldr
shudders
<andi->
This hardware + linux with proper hardware support would be great but still nothing I'd invest my private money into.
<andi->
but then again I've been so annoyed by sway, gnome, all things linux desktop in the last 3 months :/
<samueldr>
this is part of why I'm not moving to wayland yet: I can barely stand the well worn-in flaws of my setup
<andi->
Understandable.
<andi->
I am really in love with the security model for the SSH key on this box. No knowledge about TPMs, key slots, PCRs, ... required to get an SSH key backed by it. Really amazing experience. I've been too lazy to invest time into figuring all the components to make it work on linux reliably.
<samueldr>
WSL -- but for macOS -- when?
<andi->
docker run -it bash /bin/bash ?
<samueldr>
I was half-joking :)
<andi->
but that wouldn't give you that crippled kernel where only some init systems work..
<samueldr>
andi-: just saying, if you want to clear your mind from horribleness and work with other awful things, the oneplus3 device family can go on WiFi no with Mobile NixOS ;)
<andi->
hmm
<andi->
horrible stuff indeed
<andi->
I would probably rather continue my uboot on SPI journey
<samueldr>
understandable
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<andi->
Looking into how to create backups of this device doesn't look great. Either setting up samba... or running that apple daemon that graham blogged about some time ago. Neither look great from an authentication perspective.
<samueldr>
it's because it's mean to use the cloud™
<samueldr>
meant to*
<eyJhb>
I like the first version better samueldr
<eyJhb>
s/like/liked/
<andi->
Is that included in the device premium someone paid for this device?
<samueldr>
¯\_(ツ)_/¯
<andi->
Probably not and even then I wonder how all the impure things I've already done would be played back on a slightly different version of the OS...
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<gchristensen>
lol the anxiety is deep, andi-
<joepie91>
so
<joepie91>
wallstreetbets subreddit is set to private
<joepie91>
their discord has been banned
<joepie91>
for "hateful content", which sure is interesting timing
<andi->
Where will I get my latest trending bets now?
<joepie91>
most every retail brokerage is down or bugging out
<joepie91>
I think Reddit broke the economy
<joepie91>
which, honestly, seems like a nice change of pace?
<joepie91>
I much prefer them wrecking hedgefunds over wrecking governments :P