<gchristensen>
I should probably put it on github properly
<abathur>
speaking of shell, I feel like I should toot at anyone annoyed by a slow git status prompt--I've been picking at an improvement some of you may be able to stomach; this weekend I cobbled a ~benchmark to show I'm not nuts and a nix-shell ~demo mode for people to see for themselves, so I've done the ~Announcement~ thing on discourse
<pie_>
huh neat <gchristensen> neat, gnome has built-in redshift / flux support called Night Light
<samueldr>
gchristensen: yeah :)
<samueldr>
imagine
<samueldr>
a *bluetooth* *printer*
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<abathur>
just treated myself to a reboot, /swoon
<cole-h>
lol
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<cole-h>
gchristensen: Might want to add an actual LICENSE file in addition to the text in the readme
<abathur>
first one this year
<cole-h>
when scheduling calls to see if I wanted to work tomorrow, but nobody's answering the phone when I'm tryna return the call...
<abathur>
up next, exfoliating editor tabs/windows
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* samueldr
thinks
<samueldr>
with wayland, every input events go through the compositor first, right?
<samueldr>
meaning one could make a modal WM
<samueldr>
none of the inputs go to the window unless in the proper mode
<samueldr>
could be neat in a "TV" mode, where windows are "channels" you flip through, and enter in "insert" mode to use the remote's controls into the app
<energizer>
you can do that in x too right?
<energizer>
pretty sure you can do that in qtile
<samueldr>
I'm not sure you can *always* intercept the events
<samueldr>
but yeah, possibly
<samueldr>
apps can take control from the WM, e.g. screensavers can, gksudo can
<samueldr>
s/screensavers/screen lockers/
<samueldr>
but you can probably go 99% of the way
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<lovesegfault>
Oh my god
<lovesegfault>
I wanted a 5950x for my new build
<lovesegfault>
it's out of stock literally everywhere
<lovesegfault>
like, not just US stores
<lovesegfault>
but also CA stores
<lovesegfault>
and most EU shops!
<colemickens>
hasnt it been like that for months tho
<colemickens>
do the tariffs affect cpus too? :(
<siraben>
lovesegfault: must be because of the Bitcoin surge
<energizer>
i woulda thought it's just new and they didn't make enough of them yet, no?
<lovesegfault>
colemickens: idk, I also wonder
<lovesegfault>
it's because of TSMC limitations
<aterius>
I got my 5900x at 3 AM california time randomly
<aterius>
I must have set up 5 different alerts
<lovesegfault>
too many people using their N7 process means they can't churn out enough of them
<lovesegfault>
between AMD, Apple, XBox(AMD), and Playstation(AMD), plus the other clients
<lovesegfault>
aterius: from amd.com?
<aterius>
No, amazon
<lovesegfault>
At this point I'm considering just giving up and paying the scalper tax
<lovesegfault>
but idk yet
<aterius>
I'm there with you if you swap AMD cpu for nvidia gfx card
<lovesegfault>
That's another component I need too
<lovesegfault>
but I want an AMD card
<lovesegfault>
because fuck nvidia
<aterius>
Are you in the bay? Central computers has a waiting list (I think), at least for nvidia
<lovesegfault>
I'm in Berkeley, yeah
<aterius>
Hmm, I think they only did nvidia :/ They haven't put up an AMD waitlist yet
<aterius>
I'm hoping the tarrifs go away soon
<lovesegfault>
They have the 5800x but no 5950, dingit
<aterius>
sad, I wish we had a microcenter/Fry's didn't start cosplaying mad max
<lovesegfault>
:D
<lovesegfault>
Thanks for the reference anyway :)
<lovesegfault>
I'll give them a call tuesday and ask, just to try
<lovesegfault>
Oh, they even have an east bay store :D
<ar>
i ordered my 5950x at launch day, and got it 3 or 4 business days later
<ar>
i actually waited longer for the rest of the parts of my new desktop to arrive
<ar>
also, one random shop had a few units of rx6900xt early morning next day after launch, managed to order that and got it 2 days later. from what I've heard, some peoples CCs bounced and their orders got cancelled because of that, and that's why they had some units available
<lovesegfault>
ar: lucky you :)
<lovesegfault>
How do you like the card?
<lovesegfault>
seems to be even harder to find than the 5950x
<ar>
it's nice. surprisingly quiet, and fast enough
<lovesegfault>
Cool :D
<ar>
also, it fit in my new sff case and doesn't overheat there
<lovesegfault>
I might just use the 5600 XT I have while I wait for 6900 XT stock
<lovesegfault>
I got an SFF case too!
<lovesegfault>
I'm planning on running a custom loop
<ar>
i fit mine with an AIO
<talyz>
I ordered my 5900x a month and a half ago and am still waiting for it.. The date keeps getting pushed forward :/
<ar>
finding a 240mm aio that would fit in there was a bit of a pain
<lovesegfault>
talyz: where did you get it from?
<lovesegfault>
ar: what case?
<ar>
lovesegfault: ncase m1
<lovesegfault>
Ah, nice, I almost went for that one
<eyJhb>
And I have to either flash my BIOS to be able to have 16 GB mem in my machine + some from GPU, or pull out the other 8GB stick...
<eyJhb>
And most times it is just "ohh give me your BIOS and I will patch it for you", which is sketchy as hell
<ar>
eyJhb: i just got a new laptop, without tb3, and tb3 would've solved a few problems i had
<ar>
for some reason, lelnovo decided not to give x13 amd versions the tb3 option
<LinuxHackerman>
probably intel's fault
<eyJhb>
:( THe next I want to buy most have, m.2 connector(s), tb3 + WiFi 6 support. Also would very much like it to dock NOT using a connector on the side. I have a feeling they might break + I really hate having a random dock next to it
<eyJhb>
What, why.. Idiots.
<eyJhb>
But then again, my laptop also supports three monitors, but getting it to work is a PIA
<eyJhb>
But really considering starting to use the dock. As I talked with talyz about a LONG time ago, would be cool to drive more monitors and not using the USB dock :D
<eyJhb>
LinuxHackerman: Well, Lenovo is actually idiots now
<eyJhb>
So I wouldn't blame intel that fast.
<LinuxHackerman>
It's very much in Intel's interest to have features exclusive to the intel series
<talyz>
eyJhb: I have a docking station that I think fits your laptop left over, if you want it :)
<LinuxHackerman>
I mean, you could argue that lenovo is stupid for agreeing to whatever agreement intel made there, but it probably made sense business-wise 🤷
<eyJhb>
Oh yeah, BUT Levovo have a tendency to not use the "entire cpu" as in, it can do all this nice stuff with moniters, ram, stuff, things but it isn't exposed ......
<eyJhb>
Thanks for the offer talyz ! But I have slowly build up a collection of 3-4 docking stations as well :D
<eyJhb>
Did you switch laptop as well?
<talyz>
eyJhb: oh :D
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<eyJhb>
Like for some reason, when you have a Lenovo laptop, stuff just accumulates... :|
<talyz>
yeah, but I never used the laptop that fit in the dock as my main
<talyz>
but I recently got a T14s AMD
<LinuxHackerman>
T14 AMD here
<LinuxHackerman>
I'm happy with it :)
<lovesegfault>
taobao is so incredibly hard to use
<talyz>
I'm happy with the performance and build quality of mine, but Lenovo still treats it as their budget option, so you can't choose a nice screen, the webcam sucks, etc
<Emantor>
Eh, I'd love to get a T14 AMD, but my Dell Latitude E7270 with Skylake i5 is still going strong. And due to Covid and homeoffice I'm mostly using the desktop anyway…
<talyz>
which is a bit sad, since it performs way better than the Intel option :p
<Emantor>
Lenovo at least has AMD options, Dell AFAIK has no good AMD offerings.
<etu>
AMD just came out with Zen3 laptop CPU's as well
<ar>
talyz: on X13 webcam is the same between intel and amd models, and both have the same screen options
<ar>
talyz: on top of that, the amd version can have more ram (32G instead of 16G)
<Emantor>
I hate the new naming scheme for 5xxx laptop APUs. Some are Zen3, others are Zen2. horrible.
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<etu>
Emantor: yes... I was happy when they announced the 5xxx during the autumn because maybe they could get it right this time, but no.
<Emantor>
I wonder if they'll eventually use RDNA for the Laptop APU GPU part. Guess we'll see with Rembrandt.
<talyz>
ar: aha, on the T14s you can choose a better screen on the Intel model
<talyz>
ar: the webcam might be the same, but it sucks - my six year old X1 Carbon has a better one
<talyz>
ar: the ram option is really nice, yeah :)
<talyz>
oh yeah, the trackpoint feels pretty bad on linux, but it seems to be a driver issue with elantech trackpoints
<ar>
dunno. it feels the same as it did on X260, which to me is fine
<ar>
but i haven't yet moved to wayland/libinput
<talyz>
on windows you can increase the sensitivity, that's not an option on linux, so it's really stiff
<ar>
last time i tried wayland (with libinput), it felt really weird
<talyz>
I'm using libinput, but had to patch it to make it usable with this trackpoint
<ar>
on top of that, libinput maintainer seemed actively hostile towards trackpoints
<ar>
at least from some posts on the internet
<eyJhb>
ar: x260! You are so far ahead :D
<talyz>
I've had discussions with him about it and didn't get that impression
<ar>
eyJhb: x260 is my old laptop. the previous thinkpad i had (T420s) might not be functional
<eyJhb>
Rocking my x230 till it dies!
<eyJhb>
T420 was a better build quality however..
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<talyz>
but the libinput approach currently is a bit too "one size fits all"
<ar>
talyz: btw, if you'd ever want a dock for that t14s, be aware that 40AJ0135 does *not* support dual 4k@60Hz. it occupies two usb-c connectors, but uses them only in 3.1 (not 3.2) mode, and uses half of the bandwidth for usb ports on the back.
<ar>
half of the bandwidth of one port*
<talyz>
ar: if it was a really long time ago since you tried it last, it might have been strange due to a flawed trackpoint implementation which was later replaced (2018, I think)
<Taneb>
How does mathml behave for people using a screenreader or a browser without JavaScript?
<Taneb>
Not mathml sorry, mathjax
* LinuxHackerman
is defiling his old laptop with windows. It feels bad.
<ar>
talyz: i think it was sometime in 2019, but i don't really remember
<eyJhb>
I am guessing it doesn't render?
<eyJhb>
Taneb: :D
<Taneb>
Would it fall back to the underlying specification?
<eyJhb>
$$ \frac{1}{2} $$
<eyJhb>
^ Would be what it shows I guess
<talyz>
ar: ah, good to know
<V>
[05:47] <samueldr> with wayland, every input events go through the compositor first, right? <- unless you're in the input group and the program decides to go through libinput directly
<etu>
With my T495 I run it on a single cable in 120Hz
<etu>
My work laptop does only give me 60Hz
<etu>
🤷
<etu>
It's *bonkers* and I love it.
<eyJhb>
Could we have chosen a name for impermanence that would have been easier to spell?
<eyJhb>
,tofu
<{^_^}>
To get a sha256 hash of a new source, you can use the Trust On First Use model: use probably-wrong hash (for example: 0000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000), then replace it with the correct hash Nix expected. For inserting 52 0's in vim: <esc>52i0<esc>
<lovesegfault>
Do any of you have chinese social media accounts?
<lovesegfault>
I need a QQ acct
<talyz>
etu: yep, it looks really nice
<lovesegfault>
but it's literally impossible for a foreigner to make one
<lovesegfault>
same with taobao
<lovesegfault>
I get insta-banned as "suspicious"
<talyz>
eyJhb: we could have, yeah ;)
<etu>
talyz: You just have to come here and look at it some day :>
<etu>
eyJhb: Yep, but we didn't want to :D
<eyJhb>
:( Discrimination against the danes.
<talyz>
etu: yeah, once covid settles down I will! :)
<eyJhb>
Trying to get my configs up-to-date, but there is so much hacking!
* etu
is a bit behind on impermanence as well, have lagged due to the fuse parts that he haven't got around to testing yet ;)
<etu>
But pinning is part of what makes nix great so meh :D
<eyJhb>
WAIT
<eyJhb>
Are you saying the latest version might not be stable ? :p
<Ke>
behind as in not tracking HEADs?
<etu>
eyJhb: I guess it's stable, but it's different from the commit I'm pinned at, I know I should update that some day
<Ke>
I would just drop things, if they have trouble keeping up with mainline, but obviously if you are using those parts, will not help
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<eyJhb>
Well in this situation, it would mean that we have to drop etu I guess?
<Ke>
ritualistic sacrifice, in teletubby costumes, yes
<talyz>
etu: try it! :p
<Ke>
standarp practise
<Ke>
standard
<etu>
talyz: Possibly tonight :)
<talyz>
etu: ..but don't do a `nixos-rebuild switch`, to it ;)
<talyz>
etu: nice :)
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<Ke>
ideally there would be nix code that would automatically evaluate the latest commit your config can use recursively and report, whetever is pinning it back
<Ke>
!
<eyJhb>
talyz: Waaaait. Why not?
<talyz>
eyJhb: going from everything being symlinked to bindfs doesn't work very well
<eyJhb>
WELLLLLLLLLLLLLLL
<eyJhb>
Btw. why did "we" go to using bindfs?
<talyz>
mainly, setting up the bindmounts on a live system is not a great idea :p
<eyJhb>
Not sure I can switch to this, e.g. I am using nixus. And I can only really do a live switch I guess
<eyJhb>
Here I go
<talyz>
well, symlinking directories is problematic sometimes
<Ke>
isn't symlinking directories like all of nixos
<talyz>
programs that check the permissions of their config path won't like it, some just delete it and replace it with a read directory, etc
<Ke>
well, not quite every dya
<talyz>
*real
<talyz>
bindfs seems to work better in that sense, but it's still not perfect
<eyJhb>
talyz: all my stuff is not there :(
<talyz>
eyJhb: did you switch to it and reboot?
<eyJhb>
Yeah
<eyJhb>
Some dirs are there, others are not
<talyz>
:/
<talyz>
can you see anything in the logs?
<eyJhb>
Seemed like it stopped at a dir, and then aborted
<talyz>
eyJhb: yep, `listOf (oneOf [attrs str])` might be an option, which would work fine if you only need to specify additional attributes occasionally
<talyz>
Emantor: yeah, i've tried it and it helps a little bit, but it doesn't really fix the issue
<eyJhb>
talyz: If I have the time, I might look at it. But I will most likely not have the time :D
<eyJhb>
I am guessing a submodule would be better
<talyz>
Emantor: i guess the sensitivity setting changes how the trackpoint reads the pressure values, which can't really be compensated for by a multiplier
<talyz>
Emantor: i patch libinput to change the acceleration curve instead, to make it more suitable
<talyz>
eyJhb: by all means, go ahead :D
<Emantor>
I see.
<eyJhb>
*exams talyz , EXAMS!*
<talyz>
eyJhb: don't you want reasons to procrastinate? ;)
<eyJhb>
I don't want to fail the exam twice
<eyJhb>
I guess I procrastinated too much the first time :p
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<lovesegfault>
lol
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<jD91mZM2>
Hey, strange question, but does anybody here know of a mega simple headless webbrowser that has decent privacy? I have previously used chromium as an alternative to electron, but it's bloat and I need to statefully configure privacy options which sucks
<monsieurp>
jD91mZM2: I use Chromium with a zillion addons these days to get it to wipe cookies, history and such things automatically
<monsieurp>
otherwise yeah privacy sucks big effing time
<monsieurp>
have you heard about ungoogled chromium btw?
<monsieurp>
Chromium without the Google bloated shit
<jD91mZM2>
I have heard of it, but not looked into it as much as I should have
<monsieurp>
now is the time probably :)
<monsieurp>
NixOS/nixpkgs: Available as ungoogled-chromium
<jD91mZM2>
Hey, nice, maybe this could be my main drive as well!
<monsieurp>
there you go
<jD91mZM2>
I currently have this weird setup where my main drive is firefox but because firefox doesn't have a good headless mode I use stock chromium to open discord and mattermost on my last workspace
<monsieurp>
give ungoogled-chromium a go
<jD91mZM2>
I wonder if this is compatible with the chromium module in home-manager, I bet it is. That'd be really cool
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<__monty__>
jD91mZM2: What do you mean by "headless" mode? Like, kiosk mode?
<__monty__>
I think you can also hide all the browserchrome using userChrome.css.
<V>
reminds me of the many times I've walked by shops with screens showing the dinosaur game
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<sphalerite>
Are DVD misprints common? I have a DVD here where the film's chapters seem to be in the wrong order.
<__monty__>
Well that sounds like a particularly bad experience.
<sphalerite>
yeah thankfully I was watching it with someone else who knew the film and said "this is wrong."
<bbigras>
Don't they "stamp" CDs and DVDs like with a mold thing.
<__monty__>
bbigras: That's only for really high volume productions afaik.
<bbigras>
ah yeah probably
<sphalerite>
bbigras: yeah, I'm thinking maybe a mistake was made and not caught by QC before the master was replicated
<__monty__>
Many are basically written like you would burn a DVD-RW.
<sphalerite>
__monty__: are you sure? I'm thinking most commercial video DVDs would be stamped.
<__monty__>
That's what I used to think.
<sphalerite>
both because of longevity and because of production speed.
<__monty__>
Let me see if I can find a source to back me up.
<__monty__>
Hmm, can't find much of anything. I came across this when reading up on ripping DVDs. I think it was on a site of a company that produced DVDs. Something along the lines of "Unless you're producing millions (making up this number but I'm pretty certain even tens of thousands of discs was comfortably in the "yeah, we're gonna burn not stamp" range of quantities) of DVDs stamping isn't cost-effective."
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<jD91mZM2>
__monty__: Sorry for the late reply: Yes, kiosk mode. I thought "headless" was the word because you remove the ui interface (its "head"), but I don't know much about browsers
<jD91mZM2>
Well actually, maybe not kiosk mode as that looks like a very restrictive thing. Just looking for something without any UI besides the page itself - like "chromium --app" (which I think I may now use with ungoogled-chromium)
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<bbigras>
try `firefox --kiosk`
<Ke>
if you copy-paste all your code from chat, IIRC --kiosk is no-go
<Ke>
I ended up doing --no-remote and separate home dir
<Ke>
ie. set env HOME and XDG_*
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<jD91mZM2>
bbigras: Yeah, I was wrong, kiosk mode isn't exactly what I'm looking for. That makes it fullscreen too, I just want a browser window without url bar :)
<bbigras>
gotcha
<jD91mZM2>
monsieurp: Darn it, ungoogled-chromium isn't very responsive to picking up external extensions configured by home-manager. It'd be incredibly cool to have a browser pre-prepared for me
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<jD91mZM2>
Maybe I should use Brave. It's not as ungoogled, but it is what it is...
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<eyJhb>
Brave the one that puts "vochers" in random sites?
<sphalerite>
jD91mZM2: nooo don't use Brave
<sphalerite>
(this text courtesy of joepie91 ) TL;DR of Brave: business models so far have been a) replacing ads on people's sites without said site operators' consent and b) soliciting donations on behalf of people without said people's consent and now something something cryptocurrency, in both cases ignoring criticism and only backing down when it threatened to become a PR storm; they seem to have a real
<V>
Brave is the Chromium fork that the creator of JavaScript started working on after he got kicked out of his role as CEO at Mozilla for being homophobic
<sphalerite>
problem with understanding the concept of consent, which makes them highly shady as far as I'm concerned
<V>
oh cool he's also a COVID denier
<sphalerite>
oh really? I didn't know that bit :|
<V>
I just checked out his page on wikipedia so I could double-check it's built on chromium
<V>
and, apparently
<V>
in case you needed any more reasons to convince someone that JavaScript is a terrible language
<jD91mZM2>
sphalerite: V: Oh, thanks, got it. I'll have to think some more
<jD91mZM2>
I knew they were shitty but I didn't... yeah
<lukegb>
It was three days ago, hasn't made it to a release yet
<sphalerite>
hahahaha this wikipedia infobox
<sphalerite>
Known for: JavaScript, opposition to same-sex marriage
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<samueldr>
V: yeah, I wasn't accounting for external sources of reading inputs as I assumed it would be relatively obvious... the main concern was _within the scope of wayland_, where within the scope of X11 I think it's still possible to override the WM
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<__monty__>
lukegb: Thanks for pointing this out. I think I refrained from using it before because of that but didn't remember. Too bad. Kinda unfortunate the mozilla devs aren't open about the "user research" too. If it is as buggy as they say it is the number of users using it doesn't sound like a good reason to drop it entirely. If anyone is using it despite the bugginess surely that's because they want it
<__monty__>
that bad?
<Ke>
also kind of sad that they want to make a browser that is just slightly more appealing than competition
<Ke>
while it's probably honest thing to say
<sphalerite>
ugh, I keep getting the case of boot.supportedFilesystems wrong
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<samueldr>
case insensitive nix when?
<gchristensen>
right after nix is z inzenzitive
<joepie91>
niz
<V>
kebab-case is the only true case
<V>
change my mind
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<gchristensen>
i'Don't'agree
<supersandro2000>
niz() { command nix "$@" }
<__monty__>
I have an old ipad mini and the display only manages to turn on properly once every so often. Usually if I wait for an hour or more it turns on. But if it sleeps and I try turning it back on within seconds or minutes it usually either flashes a couple vertical lines and then only the backlight stays on or no lines and just the backlight. I don't really expect any solutions but can anyone explain to
<__monty__>
my how an LCD could behave like this?
<__monty__>
Is it definitely a hardware issue or could it be software?
<__monty__>
Is this because charge needs to build up somewhere to kickstart the LCD?
<V>
gchristensen: ew
<samueldr>
__monty__: to my relatively inexperienced professionally eyes, sounds like something in the control circuit is failing, and not like an individual "end" component
<samueldr>
e.g. not the LCD panel or the backlight
<samueldr>
maybe the display control circuit cannot get the proper power, maybe the cpu/specialized IC that handles that crashes
<samueldr>
it could be like you intuit, about kickstarting, powering that part of the device may be done through a separate~ish section that derives its own power source, and e.g. a cap is not working as it should
<gchristensen>
V'ew?
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<V>
okay but more seriously, the fact that it's actually possible to do that in nix is horrifying
<__monty__>
Maybe it's haskell influence? ' is often used to mark a helper function. `f = f' initArg`
<gchristensen>
yea
<V>
I don't mind primes
<V>
but using it in the middle of a word? /me shivers
<samueldr>
m'eh
<V>
s/eh/lady/
<samueldr>
hm, no thanks
<gchristensen>
hm'st've
<gchristensen>
a fuse filesystem that autopatchelf's ELFs that are written to it?
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<ma27[m]>
still considering to patch stdenv in a fork to allow stuff like `don'tBuild`. I'm highly convinced that the underlying bash scripts will become very pretty after that %)
<ldlework>
just won a crazy round of go with a gambit
<ldlework>
feels good
<ldlework>
adreneline pumping lol
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<eyJhb>
I am forced to have a PowerPoint file for Teams presentations.........
<eyJhb>
That is why energizer and __monty__ :(
* colemickens
waves to everyone
<bbigras>
could you fake it? put a fake powerpoint overlay on your screen and share your screen
<eyJhb>
bbigras: I need to share it, so other people can take control of the presentation, and that can only be done using a powerpoint...
<eyJhb>
:(
<bbigras>
oh :(
<eyJhb>
Like I can "somewhat" convert it, but it removes a lot of elements from the PDF. And adds weird ugly hyperlinks...
<colemickens>
DAE have like 5% of their requests to GitHub just... never complete, since about a month ago?
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<lovesegfault>
ar: computer central had the mobo I wanted :)
<lovesegfault>
And they updated the BIOS for me and tested that it works with a 5000 series CPU
<lovesegfault>
really nice, will buy from them again
<samueldr>
I think we need warnings like tobacco warning on product boxes for things that don't give you the ability to run your own operating system on them
<samueldr>
on all things, IoT, computers, phones, routers
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<energizer>
we also need warnings on things that do provide that ability :D
<samueldr>
hm?
<energizer>
warning: you might spend a lot of time configuring this
<adisbladis>
samueldr: Kinda like RYF but practical
<samueldr>
adisbladis: yeah
<samueldr>
part of repairability label
<samueldr>
where the basic ideas behind RYF is kind of a part of repairability
<samueldr>
energizer: ah, nerd snipe warning
<energizer>
yup
<samueldr>
I'm way past the warnings
<joepie91>
<samueldr> I think we need warnings like tobacco warning on product boxes for things that don't give you the ability to run your own operating system on them
<adisbladis>
Does anyone hav an idea of how much RAM you need to run a synapse (matrix) server?
<samueldr>
(I'm thinking apples of this world will want to make sure the label is not part of their packaging)
<samueldr>
(because it'll be ugly)
<adisbladis>
I'm getting a new VPS and I'm thinking how much RAM I actually need
<adisbladis>
Or is Dendrite actually usable by now?
<joepie91>
frankly I think it should just be outright banned
<joepie91>
it's an environmental disaster
<joepie91>
welp and there went the network
<samueldr>
joepie91: operating systems banned?
<samueldr>
;)
<joepie91>
no, devices which you cannot replace the operating system / firmware on :)
<samueldr>
I definitely agree
<samueldr>
at least at a level where it matters
<samueldr>
like, I can agree that not being able to replace a standards-based firmware like an UEFI is _barely acceptable_
<samueldr>
on a repairability label that would ensure it couldn't get a perfect grade for software repairability
<samueldr>
but it'd still be past a passing grade, since standards-based interoperable bootloaders are good enough for what it matters
<lovesegfault>
samueldr: this reminds me of a funny thing I've found here in california. Are you familiar with "Prop 65 warnings"?
<samueldr>
I would assume all the world is aware that things giving you cancer in california
<joepie91>
samueldr: that assumes that the standards-based bootloader - which basically never ACTUALLY complies with the standard, ever - actually functions correctly (which it frequently also doesn't)
<samueldr>
but it's fine, I'm not in california :)
<joepie91>
samueldr: consider my motherboard, for example - I cannot enable fan curve smoothing because Gigabyte are incompetent, that board will likely be replaced at some point when I get tired of the fan revving getting on my nerves, and then sit on a shelf
<samueldr>
yeah
<lovesegfault>
samueldr: so, I bought a tin of tobacco once and it came plastered with a warning "WARNING THIS PRODUCT MAY EXPOSE YOU TO TOBACCO"
<lovesegfault>
lol
<joepie91>
that's 1 (one) e-waste
<samueldr>
but you can see how pragmatically it's generally okay
<lovesegfault>
I sure damn hope so
<joepie91>
because noone can publish firmware that fixes the goddamn issue
<joepie91>
samueldr: the same is said for non-standards-based firmwares
<adisbladis>
lovesegfault: "May contain traces of tobacco"
<joepie91>
"pragmatically it's generally okay"
<joepie91>
the problem is that no, it really isn't
<lovesegfault>
adisbladis: I've seen that one too
<adisbladis>
Really? lol
<joepie91>
I don't consider UEFI firmwares meaningfully different in that sense
<lovesegfault>
and like, inside the tin is just pure tobacco nothing else
<samueldr>
whew
<lovesegfault>
'beware may have traces of tobacco'
<samueldr>
that sure sounds like someone who's dealt with bad implementations :)
<samueldr>
but yeah
<adisbladis>
lovesegfault: Being in California, maybe the rest is weed?
<lovesegfault>
:D
<samueldr>
I _want_ it to apply to everything
<joepie91>
samueldr: honestly I'm not sure you'll ever find anyone who has actually worked with UEFI, who can give you an opinion that does not include at least one curse word
<samueldr>
but that's the difference between climbing a 45° ramp vs. a 80° ramp
<joepie91>
it's a notorious shitshow :)
<samueldr>
implementations are bad
<samueldr>
I would word something like: when you are not found to be compliant, you have to give out the escape hatch to end-users
<samueldr>
but yes, please make everything end-user serviceable
<joepie91>
sure but "implementations are bad" is precisely the reason we're having this discussion in the first place, just the exact value of "bad" is different for UEFI firmware vs. embedded device firmware
<joepie91>
if implementations were perfect, user-serviceability would not be needed :)
<samueldr>
no, it would be needed
<samueldr>
for experimentation!
<joepie91>
there's nothing to experiment if they were already peffecfg
<joepie91>
perfect*
<joepie91>
that's what I mean with "different values for bad"
<samueldr>
it might be perfect for the intended use case
<joepie91>
then it's not perfect in an absolute sense :)
<samueldr>
what if I want to add a speaker to my intelligent lightbulb through a GPIO pin?
<joepie91>
either way I am going to continue watching this CS course, I was just trying to illustrate why I don't think UEFI and such should get an exemption :P
<joepie91>
but it's not a discussion I want to spend a lot of time on
<samueldr>
my main worry is that it could end up creating a fractal of different boot flows that, sure, you could technically replace the initial firmware, but they'd work in incompatible manners by default
<samueldr>
like, let's say, android devices almost are
<samueldr>
it's somewhat compatible
<joepie91>
sufficient documentation would be the other side of the coin
<samueldr>
ah, now you're advocating for something that will not happen (sadly), _support_ from vendors
<samueldr>
I was only thinking about the practical "this can happen now" idea
<samueldr>
not a warranty void if unlocked, but rather, *shrug kaomoji* if unlocked
<samueldr>
don't misunderstand me, I would prefer the always well-documented always open scenario
<joepie91>
it's certainly possible with enough political will
<samueldr>
sure
<samueldr>
everything's possible with enough political will
<samueldr>
but sadly we don't live in an world where only ideal solutions will exist :(
<joepie91>
samueldr: last time someone said that, we had the Australian PM disagreeing with the laws of mathematics
<joepie91>
so let's not say that too loudly :P
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<samueldr>
I really don't like when those kind of discussions end up in places of pure idealism, almost always impractical, completely devaluing the practical options without even attempting to propose alternative, work with or fix the practical options
<samueldr>
it's draining
<joepie91>
my arguments are neither 'pure idealism' nor exclusive of 'repairability labels', FTR