gchristensen changed the topic of #nixos-chat to: NixOS but much less topical || https://logs.nix.samueldr.com/nixos-chat
<qyliss> Another thing we'd do with infinite money: pay someone to make an lwn-style thing
<qyliss> posting summaries of interesting discussions from all around
<infinisil> lwn?
<infinisil> Ah last week in nixos?
<drakonis> that'd be nice
<drakonis> we have nixos-weekly
<drakonis> "weekly"
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<gchristensen> lots ofwork
<qyliss> hence for when we have infinite money
<drakonis> we don't have a lot of daily happenings to even justify that
<drakonis> even with infinite money
<drakonis> if we had infinite money, i'd vote on redoing nixos
<drakonis> making a better mousetrap
<drakonis> building a better mousetrap, that is.
<gchristensen> probably not a good idea to throw out the baby with the bathwater
<qyliss> drakonis: I think we do!
<drakonis> oh?
<qyliss> I don't think anybody (apart from worldofpeace) can keep up with all our issues and PRs and Discourse threads and IRC channels, and all the stuff that we do on upstream mailing lists etc.
<drakonis> oh, you mean like that?
<samueldr> not only internal, but also looking for interactions with other projects could be good
<qyliss> Yeah exactly
<drakonis> also a good idea
<qyliss> There have probably been 30 emails on the public-inbox mailing list about the NixOS module I'm working on
<samueldr> a chunk of the nixers isn't really aware of the topics and whatnots happening on IRC
<drakonis> there's a mailing list?
<drakonis> another one?
<samueldr> (a chunk isn't or a chunk aren't?)
<qyliss> Other people aren't going to be interested in the minutae, but I bet there's me something interesting for a mailing list
<qyliss> drakonis: public-inbox is software I'm packaging
<qyliss> they have a mailing list
<drakonis> ohhhhhh
* drakonis smacks forehead
<qyliss> samueldr: I think it's isn't in American English and aren't in British
<drakonis> software about making mailing lists has a mailing list that uses itself
<samueldr> qyliss: then what about canadian english? :)
<drakonis> truly recursive and dogfooded
<worldofpeace> qyliss: lol, that's because I have an uncommon memory ability
* samueldr digs in the termium+
<drakonis> you might call it meta!
<drakonis> 30 emails you say?
<qyliss> that's my guess
<drakonis> the thread says 11 emails
<qyliss> notmuch count '(from:hi@alyssa.is or to:hi@alyssa.is) and to:meta@public-inbox.org'
<qyliss> 53
<drakonis> hmm
<qyliss> drakonis: a bunch of different threads
<drakonis> ah okay!
<drakonis> ah there's a kernel dev replying to one of your emails
<drakonis> v. cool tho
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<qyliss> Yeah that was pretty cool
<qyliss> The Linux foundation funded some of it's development
<qyliss> (public-inbox's, that is)
<drakonis> yes
<qyliss> they use it at https://lore.kernel.org/
<drakonis> i'm aware
<drakonis> its good.
<drakonis> made following kernel dev much easier
<qyliss> it's gonna have a very nice NixOS module soon
<drakonis> awesome.
<qyliss> hoping to get the PR up this week
<drakonis> i would also like to propose that if we had infinite money, i'd throw infinite money at writing better docs
<drakonis> the shiniest docs
<drakonis> and most definitely at python devs to give us decent pypi metadata
<qyliss> we'd have to be careful not to collapse the global economy with our infinite money...
<qyliss> would be lots of responsibility
<drakonis> naaah screw the global economy
<qyliss> we've got an operating system to write!
<gchristensen> lol
<drakonis> topple the global economy and go sing kumbaya
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<elvishjerricco> My windows showed up overtop my i3lock screen. wat
<drakonis> i'd also pay devs to fix the linux desktop stack
<drakonis> its only fair
<drakonis> also linux phones for all
<qyliss> can we buy every company who makes unfree software in nixpkgs and release the source code
<drakonis> yes
<drakonis> buy nvidia
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<qyliss> oh yes good
<drakonis> buy google too
<qyliss> and intel
<drakonis> buy every hardware company
<drakonis> do buy amazon and microsoft too
<drakonis> gotta own the cloud
<drakonis> nix on the clouds
<samueldr> `qmp: sphinx: Add Qualcomm Malware Protection kernel instrumentation` ??!?
<drakonis> with diamonds
<samueldr> OEM kernels are full of surprise
<drakonis> what is this from?
<drakonis> 5.4?
<drakonis> oh
<samueldr> 3.10 OEM kernel
<drakonis> oh lord whaaaat
<samueldr> old device
<drakonis> that looks like secure boot but bad?
<samueldr> no idea still
<samueldr> I was struck by the commit message
<drakonis> yiiiiiiiiiikes i looked that one up
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<drakonis> hooooly moly this is bad
<samueldr> has a bad smell, from sight, but in no way that makes it bad... now let's look at the implementation :3
<samueldr> it might be something that runs in their trustzone implementation though :/
<samueldr> I'm only glad to see there's an option to disable it
<samueldr> hm, not in the implementation I'm faced with, though :/
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<samueldr> I'm not liking the fact that this new google interface doesn't show URLs anymore most of the time https://stuff.samueldr.com/screenshots/2019/10/20191009234049.png
<samueldr> and this weird thing that looks like a breadcrumb but isn't one is... weird
<samueldr> feels awfully like something's trying to make the AOL keyword a thing again :/
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<etu> samueldr: Isn't "awful" the correct word to describe modern web for the past many years? :)
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<pie_> this looks like a pretty neat collection of links on bootstrapping stuff https://bootstrapping.miraheze.org/wiki/Main_Page
<pie_> unrelated, would be nice if packages had a metadata field pointing to an upstream text file or something that could be used for outdatedness checking
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<sphalerite> eyJhb: didn't get tired of it, just confused :p
<sphalerite> (once)
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<eyJhb> AHh... :p Embrace the coin sphalerite ! If you know EUR somewhat, then it is always around 7.5 DKK to one EURO :p
<eyJhb> Ohh damn, the joy!
<sphalerite> eyJhb: that's too much, I already have to deal with SEK sometimes
<eyJhb> sphalerite: the SEK currency is weak! :D And.. Not that easy to convert with
<eyJhb> 7.5 is just easy!
<talyz> eyJhb: extra weak at the moment! :D
<eyJhb> I like the 1:1.46 conversion :%
<eyJhb> :D Might need to visit again ;)
<eyJhb> However the ZAR is better haha, 1:2.23 (DKK:ZAR)
<talyz> eyJhb: haha, yeah, do it ;)
<talyz> sphalerite: oh, that's bad.. and weird
<eyJhb> I will try to bring my friend next time, if she is up for a "roadtrip" :D Would be fun! Then another meetup where I am not the only dane :D :D
<talyz> eyJhb: sounds good! then being surrounded by us swedes might be less intimidating ;)
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<eyJhb> Ahh you were all lovely! I somewhat miss hearing Swedish actually. But I have found out, if I drive a little up from Aalborg, I can reach the Swedish P3 radio station haha
<eyJhb> Btw. talyz how is Uni going for the misses (?) ?
<talyz> eyJhb: it didn't work out, unfortunately - it started out really heavy with tons to read and group work
<talyz> eyJhb: molly's more of the practical type, so that kind of program wasn't a good fit, but we did find one that seems much more suitable with four days of practical learning and one day of lessons per week :)
<eyJhb> talyz: ahh sorry to hear that, but great that you guys have found something else for her :D Is it in the same field?
<eyJhb> Also, she will always be welcome to come over and be a engineer with us :D Tons of practical stuff
<talyz> eyJhb: you can probably get P3 online as well (if they haven't limited by ip..)
<eyJhb> Haha yeah, I can! But never the same as while you're driving. And my car doesn't allow for anything else than CDs..
<eyJhb> (+ radio)
<talyz> eyJhb: yep, same field, just a step lower in the "hierarchy"
<talyz> eyJhb: ah, right, high tech stuff :p
<eyJhb> Yeah okay :p As long as she likes it! - it is the most high tech standard radio talyz ! Priced at about 2.000 DKK used as far as I remember...
<eyJhb> Like the time I needed a single cable for my car, but could only buy it for 30.000,- DKK, because they couldn't sell it to me, without selling the entire wire network
<talyz> :D
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<eyJhb> btw. talyz & etu , when is the best time to visit Sweden?
<talyz> eyJhb: I guess that depends on what you want to do... Weather-wise, I would say either during summer or winter ;)
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<qyliss> worldofpeace: your client appears to be inserting the realname rather than nick when you're pinging people, fyi
<worldofpeace> qyliss: It seems matrix is doing that. I think they're using matrix also
<gchristensen> oh matrix :(
<worldofpeace> tbh only use it because of slick UI :P
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<gchristensen> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HrUvjocWopI says HP z220 is a good machine for reasonable
<gchristensen> i7-3770 at 3.9ghz with 32G of ram for $450 :o
<sphalerite> qyliss: the realname thing only applies for other matrix users, and uses their matrix display name
<sphalerite> the bridge could be smart and translate the names into irc nicks though
<samueldr> gchristensen: have a z420 here and it's not bad
<samueldr> why are you looking at those?
<samueldr> might also want to check a bunch more since 450$USD seems steep for only the z220
<samueldr> $CAD in this page
<samueldr> they also have the dual-cpu variants
<samueldr> confirmed for the z420, likely for the z220; they have vpro technology... make that what you want, I'm fine with the ability to have remote control and serial access to the machine, so I can manage grub from afar
<drakonis> that's surprisingly cheap
<drakonis> only $450 dollars
<drakonis> there's no gpu tho?
<gchristensen> nice
<gchristensen> samueldr: just interested in it. my home machine which I run(ran) r13y from doens't do it very well anymore.
<samueldr> drakonis: there's a GPU
<samueldr> it ships with a basic quadro
<drakonis> ohh that's nice.
<samueldr> really basic
<drakonis> that's a fantastic price tho
<drakonis> a quadro is surprisingly beefy
<samueldr> it was fantastic 2 years ago, now it's getting longer in the tooth
<samueldr> drakonis: not those basic ones
<samueldr> they're approx like GT630
<drakonis> hm
<samueldr> quadro is just "nvidia, but for business"
<samueldr> gchristensen: the z620 or z820 from that website could be of use, more cores, more cpu
<samueldr> with the z series from HP, it's zCG? where G is generation and C is class, and ? I haven't really seen change from zero
<samueldr> so z220, z420, z620 and z820 were all sold around the same time
<samueldr> I *think* we're still at zX40
<samueldr> hm :/ the shop link is broken
<samueldr> though "standard UEFI boot environment" likely mean the aarch64 iso works
<samueldr> might need _latest though
<NinjaTrappeur> gchristensen, We are using this kind of material in a local association as remote builders (dual processor hpz800). While you can have them for pretty cheap, the electrical consumption is significantly higher than for a regular desktop (~750w peak). They also tend to heat pretty much.
<NinjaTrappeur> The ram is crazily cheap though
<gchristensen> ahh interesting
<gchristensen> my electricity usage is already noticable
<samueldr> when I was looking at those boxes, the "0th" generation (zX00) vs. "2nd" generation (zX20) there seemd to be a major bump in all appreciable metrics for the same power use
<NinjaTrappeur> ah, did not know
* NinjaTrappeur looks at the x20 second hand price range
<NinjaTrappeur> The price difference is sadly considerable where I live :( Won't cover up the electrical cost.
<samueldr> I think it's likely that for the z820 range the price goes higher; I was looking at the z420, and specifically for that seller in my locality :)
<samueldr> ah! it's not a new product from softiron, it's the 2016 thing
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<gchristensen> yeah
<gchristensen> https://arewefissionyet.com/ neat
<srhb> git checkout HEAD~3000
<srhb> ... strap in, we're in for a ride
* srhb dons helmet
<gchristensen> oooh neat
<gchristensen> ...whatchadoin?
<srhb> Debugging some bond regression in 19.09
<gchristensen> oh!
<srhb> TL;DR: You can end up with fantasyland hwaddresses on all your interfaces :P
<gchristensen> where are your bonded systems?
<srhb> I'm not sure I understand the question :P
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<ashkitten> whats yalls opinion on kali? i've never used it
<gchristensen> kali linux?
<ashkitten> yep
<drakonis> isnt it just debian except it comes with pentesting tools preinstalled?
<drakonis> one gsoc participant upstreamed many of kali's tools
<drakonis> or at least tried, i have not looked up the outcome
<drakonis> upstreamed packaging to debian, that is.
<ashkitten> ah
<ashkitten> i don't know much about it lol
<drakonis> it didnt go far enough
<drakonis> kali has 470 extra packages total
<ashkitten> huh
<drakonis> they're written in different languages, so samueloph would have to go through the packaging process for many languages
<drakonis> so overall it is fairly time consuming
<drakonis> debian's packaging policies are complex
<drakonis> there's also blackarch, which has a much wider range of packages
<drakonis> 4400 last time i looked it up?
<drakonis> 2347, welp, way off the mark here
<joepie91> the same is true for pentesting distros in general; usually they consist of a bunch of pre-packaged pentesting-related tools on top of an off-the-shelf distro, with a cool wallpaper and maaaaybe some different kernel settings and userland 'hardening' trickery
<drakonis> they're all downstreams to other distros
<joepie91> it's basically not worth using any of them in any fashion other than "on location, as a disposable live CD/USB"
<ashkitten> yeah makes sense
<drakonis> disposable usb more likely
<joepie91> but if you treat them as metapackages in ISO form, they can be useful to get up and running quickly for an engagement
<joepie91> especially if you don't have much experience yet (and therefore not a strong preference for config/tools)
<drakonis> a cd is too slow and disk drives are less common
<joepie91> eh, they run fine off CD :P
<drakonis> by the way i may have convinced someone to use nixos, i'm almost certain they're going to have a hard time
<drakonis> riiip new user
<joepie91> and if you do pentesting professionally you'll probably run into some engagements where you can't use USB devices
<ashkitten> nixos is technically impressive but i think not seemingly necessary to people who don't already care about our values
<gchristensen> I didn't have nixos' values until after I new I needed it
<drakonis> its a manjaro user
<ashkitten> reproducibility is definitely not a thing a lot of desktop users care about
<drakonis> he asked in the group about distros and i mentioned nixos, then he asked about the package manager
<ashkitten> i care a lot about it because i despise statefulness and indirection
<drakonis> perhaps i should have just pointed out he can install it standalone
<joepie91> ashkitten: website users also don't care about parameterized database queries, but we still widely recommend them, because users *do* care about the consequences of not having/usiing them
<joepie91> it's the same with the properties NixOS, in my opinion
<joepie91> users may not directly care about the technical properties of it, but they certainly care about the consequences
<joepie91> namely: no more "wait why did this thing mysteriously stop working"
<ashkitten> yeah
<ashkitten> i like being able to feel confident when i make changes to my computer
<joepie91> I don't think that NixOS is anywhere near the point, currently, where it can abstract its technical properties into properties that end users care about; but it does have the foundation to make it so
<joepie91> typical end users, that is
<ashkitten> or update my server with confidence because i know nothing will go wrong usually
<joepie91> drakonis: I've kinda stopped recommending Nix-on-other-distros unless people ask about it specifically. the problem is that you still need to learn most of the Nix things, but you don't get many of the niceties that NixOS gives you, and now you have to explain the distinction between what Nix does vs. what NixOS does
<ashkitten> though i wish even if they didnt give me a full graphical console output on the server, please at least give me serial so i can interact with grub....
<joepie91> drakonis: particularly irritating is that on other distros you don't get declarative service management, and the gap between "Nix-installed applications" and "distro-native services" is really rather big
<joepie91> in a server context, for example, that means that I can tell someone "hey you can install a specific Node.js version with Nix and it won't mess with the system version" and then after 2 weeks their question is "okay and now I want to do this on a server and make it a service, now what"
<joepie91> there's a lot of annoying system integration disconnects like that, that could easily end up being more of a hassle than just wholesale switching to NixOS would've been :P
<drakonis> ah yes
<drakonis> it is too a hassle when someone moves to nixos and things that worked under distro + nix stop functioning under nixos
<joepie91> aye, but there I can explain how to do things by explaining a single operational model
<joepie91> for Nix-on-other-distros, I need to explain the operational model of both Nix and the current distro, and how to integrate them together
<joepie91> and why those specific hacks are needed
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<aminechikhaoui> joepie91 it looks like you can achieve declarative service management with Nix-on-other-distros through systemd generators, have a look at the manpages here https://www.freedesktop.org/software/systemd/man/systemd.generator.html
<joepie91> aminechikhaoui: huh, that's new to me. I don't currently have the mental cycles to learn about it (flu...), but if you could write that up on the wiki it'd be much appreciated :)
<aminechikhaoui> oh sorry to hear that, hope you'll feel better soon :) I haven't tried it yet but from the description it sounds like it could solve the problem you're describing. But I think it's probably a good idea to have an example somewhere like the wiki
<joepie91> thanks
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<joepie91> man
<joepie91> those old monochrome laptop screens are so nice
<gchristensen> so beautiful
<joepie91> this is the laptop/project in question, btw: https://revspace.nl/Compaq_LTE_Elite_4/50E
<joepie91> (it now has wifi and stuff)
<gchristensen> :o
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