gchristensen changed the topic of #nixos-chat to: NixOS but much less topical || https://logs.nix.samueldr.com/nixos-chat
<globin> ashkitten: we've had zfs hang when swap being on zfs (obviously not a good idea in hindsight)
<elvishjerricco> globin: The zfs-on-linux wiki implies swap on ZVOL is supposed to work, but I could never get it to. Whenever I'd start swapping, the system would hang.
<globin> yep, same experience
<ashkitten> swap on zvol should work but is not recommended at all
<ashkitten> and it's not surprising you'll find weird behavior
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<ashkitten> hmmmmmmmm why is dlna/upnp casting not a thing in firefox tbh
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<ashkitten> hi pie__
<ashkitten> you seem excited
<pie__> more like internal panic
<pie__> not sure what im panicing about but im panicing
<pie__> i havent done nix stuff in like two months
<pie__> which is why you havent seen me ranting constantly
<ashkitten> yeah i did feel like i was missing something in my life
<ashkitten> i thought it was my phone but i guess it was you
<samueldr> pie__: you have a talk scheduled
<pie__> samueldr: wait what
* samueldr intentionally dropped the question mark to make them panic
<pie__> did i forge about a talk im giving
<pie__> oh god lmao
<pie__> samueldr: ffff
<pie__> you gave me a bit of a heart attack there because i did kind of want to give a talk at some point
<samueldr> maybe check your e-mails just in case
<samueldr> but I was only teasing
<pie__> i know
<pie__> i was just telling someone i was about to go to bed then conference panic
<pie__> but now the panic really hit
<pie__> xD
<samueldr> I'm stoked about it all
<pie__> oh its gonna be ggreat i jus tdont have my life in order
<pie__> like, ever
<samueldr> though a bit concerned about my talk... but more about having too much content :)
<samueldr> I want to talk for hours on every minutiæ but it's probably not a good idea
<pie__> we should probably just strap a tape recorder to samueldr and sit him down somewhere
<pie__> can put it in a podcast
<samueldr> that's not really podcast material either :)
<samueldr> though I'm sure I'll have my chances in unpacking everything during the three days
<pie__> can use it to put yourself to sleep at night :P
<samueldr> I'm also really glad of how things are turning out for pre-talk preps, I'm way done with the minimal stuff
<ashkitten> did you know grant kirkhope composed the soundtrack for ghostbusters (2016)? i sure didn't until just now, that's pretty rad
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<Taneb> "16187 store paths deleted, 726873.83 MiB freed"
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<jackdk> I feel like there should be a high-score table for that
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* sphalerite rg 'store paths deleted' ~/.weechat/logs
<sphalerite> Taneb: you seems to have the current high score according to my data :D
<sphalerite> infinisil: new feature for nixbot? :p
<eyJhb> rg?
<eyJhb> ,locate bin rg
<{^_^}> Found in packages: ripgrep
<eyJhb> Ah
<__monty__> eyJhb: Ripgrep, a better grep.
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<__monty__> GCC requires a C++ compiler? o.O
<qyliss> it's written partially in c++
<hyperfekt> manveru: That's pretty cool. I wonder how much better than 240MB 120MB really are. How large would the simplest interpreter able to run a language you could write a C compiler in be?
<qyliss> hyperfekt: have you seen GNU Mes?
<__monty__> hyperfekt: Considering a MB roughly equals 500pages, a *lot* better.
<__monty__> We're talking about having a trusted foundation here.
<hyperfekt> Yeah, I just saw that's essentially what they're doing. I think I underestimated how much complexity there is to compiling a C compiler.
<hyperfekt> __monty__: That's my point, it's still gonna be really hard to review 60.000 pages.
<qyliss> C is a ridiculous language
<__monty__> hyperfekt: A lot easier than twice that though. And they're not done cutting it down.
<__monty__> A single step will only get you neglibly closer to your goal but not taking it will get you nowhere fast.
<hyperfekt> Yeah, I'm excited for that Scheme-only bootstrap. Looks like they'll really get to a place where you could review it. Also I see NLNet is sponsoring that like all the other cool things ^^
<__monty__> Yeah, definite props to NLNet to connect EU funding with foss.
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<hyperfekt> Ah, there's stage0 which is more along the lines of what I imagined. Less than 1kb trusted binary size. That is where my comment was rooted, in the intuition that much less *should* be possible (even if it takes a ton of work).
<gchristensen> poor matrix :(
<__monty__> Still getting DDoSed?
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<eyJhb> AW!
<eyJhb> Pwntools is broken on 19.09...
<gchristensen> trying to use an external monitor on my second machine here reminds me of all the reasons I switched to wayland, and is making me wish super hard that obs had even better support for wayland.
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<gchristensen> I wonder if I could have my system run wayland and x11, choosing which one after boot?
<adisbladis> gchristensen: SDDM can do that
<gchristensen> oooh!
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<adisbladis> Probably GDM too, but I don't have any experience using that
<pie_> joepie91: i tried to get a hetzner but they disabled my account before i could upload my ide cuz they were like give us your id lol
<pie_> joepie91: i was gonna do a babbys first website
<pie_> now what
<joepie91> pie_: afaik they e-mail you about the ID?
<pie_> and the jerks even have the audacity to not let you create an account without giving a credit card first :P
<pie_> joepie91: they have some web interface now
<joepie91> huh what, I don't have a CC on file with them
<pie_> how do you pay for stuff then
<pie_> oh paypal probably
<pie_> right i forgot could choose, derp
<joepie91> pie_: bank charge for hetzner iirc
<pie_> anywayi registered, the system was like
<joepie91> SEPA direct debit
<pie_> * anyway i registered on sunday, the sysstem was like WE REQUIRE ADDITINAL VAERIFICATION (maybe because im coming from hungary)
<joepie91> this is what I got
<pie_> and then i was gonna give them crap monday night and it was like ACCOUNT DISABLED
<pie_> and support isnt replying to my emails even though the system is acknowledging them
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<joepie91> that's really weird
<joepie91> dunno what to do with that
<joepie91> you could try prodding them on Twitter
<pie_> i guess they just dont like me
<joepie91> or LowEndTalk
<pie_> i dont have a twitter
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<joepie91> or somewhere else they're active
<joepie91> pie_: hold on
<pie_> some google results were lowendtalk where people were like lol they dont want your business you entitled little
<joepie91> yeah you can mostly ignore those posts
<pie_> im open to other hosting options -_-
<ajs124> digitalocean?
<manveru> vpsfree :)
<manveru> or netlify, for static stuff
<pie_> joepie91: also i was recommended njalla as an anonymous domain registrar, which is cool, but registration just gives me permission denied ;_;
<joepie91> I don't know of anything that matches the price:resources ratio of Hetzner at similar quality
<pie_> i want to do some dynamic stuff too later
<pie_> joepie91: aw.
<joepie91> if the ratio can be a bit worse, then there are plenty of options
<pie_> i was starting with hetzner cloud
<joepie91> pie_: where's the requirement for 'anonymous registrar' come from?
<ajs124> Although all my stuff does run on Hetzner. As in, these messages go through Hetzner...
<pie_> nowhere, i just thought it would be nicer
<pie_> and it makes me feel better
<joepie91> pie_: there's a risk tradeoff; if you register your domain through Njalla, that means that they own the domain on paper and therefore you're SOL in a dispute
<joepie91> this is not true for non-anonymous registrars with WHOIS privacy (afaik)
<joepie91> where you can file a dispute through ICANN
<pie_> my domains probably arent that important
<pie_> i kind of just want to give it a shot anyway but i cant even register for the site lol. i dont suppose youve ever used it
<joepie91> I haven't
<joepie91> my only experiences with anonymous domain registrations were with PRQ
<joepie91> which, uh, did not go well :)
<joepie91> my own domains are primarily at internetbs
<gchristensen> I bet r13y.com could get some interesting unreproducibility issues if I turned on filename normalization: $ touch $'\377' => «touch: cannot touch ''$'\377': Invalid or incomplete multibyte or wide character»
<gchristensen> (I really like gandi)
<ajs124> All my domains are with hosting.de. Their api is nice and they're pretty cheap.
<ajs124> Not true. Some are with namecheap, for reasons. Which kinda sucks.
<pie_> joepie91: dont suppose you could poke njalla on twitter why i cant reg? :p
<buckley310> eyJhb, fwiw, pwntools works if you install it via pip
<joepie91> pie_: my limit for today is at 1 customer support proxy service :P
* joepie91 is sick
<pie_> aww
<pie_> get well soon \o/
<joepie91> thanks
<pie_> buckley310: eyJhb: and virtualenv has generally worked for me, once you have the external deps down
<pie_> im still not sure i know hwo to properls use python infra :/
<pie_> joepie91: ill ask again later? :P
<pie_> i also kind of just want to practice doing stuff anonymously and whatnot, but yea
<joepie91> pie_: that'll involve a lot more work than picking out a few providers :)
<pie_> yeah but you have to start somewhere
<pie_> or at least i have to
<joepie91> pie_: well... yes and no. the point to start is by establishing a threat model (and thus learning how to do that), not by picking things that claim to be "anonymous"
<joepie91> the latter won't get you anywhere
<pie_> the thread model is if it has your address and credit card youre dumb
<joepie91> that's not a threat model :P
<pie_> :P
<pie_> i wish i could security tabletop with some people, im so bad at it
<joepie91> of potential use
<pie_> to quote mickend a bit badly
<pie_> mickens
<pie_> ". Basically, you’re either dealing with Mossad or not-Mossad. If your adversary is not-Mossad, then you’ll probably be fine [...] f your adversary is the Mossad, YOU’RE GONNA DIE AND THERE’S NOTHING THAT YOU CAN DO ABOUT IT. The Mossad is not intimidated by the fact that you employ https://"
<joepie91> lol
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<pie_> 3) What are their incentives/goals?" youve been reading somethng
<pie_> " 2) What are their resources/capabilities?
<pie_> this sounds familiar
<joepie91> ?
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<pie_> or maybe this is just obvios
<joepie91> it's obvious to people who have been dabbling in security and subconsciously learning threat modelling for a while
<joepie91> it's definitely not obvious to most people :P
<joepie91> for starters, a lot of people think in a binary {secure, not secure}
<joepie91> entirely missing the 'incentives' and 'costs' points
<joepie91> "security is about making an attack on something unjustifiably expensive for the attackers you expect" seems obvious to security people, but not so much to most other people
<pie_> ive kind of come full circle
<pie_> but maybe thats because im interested in secure messaging in the face of state actors
<ajs124> do I hear OTPs and carrier pidgeons? :D
<pie_> not scalably
<joepie91> pie_: so then the next question is, why are you interesting to state actors :P
<joepie91> because state actors have a budget
<joepie91> it's a big budget, but still a budget
<joepie91> and they will allocate more or less to you depending on why you're interesting
<pie_> nah man everyone knows state actors are magic
<pie_> i feel like this kind of comes down to an argument about dual use technologies and whether it should be relevant if youre interesting or not
<pie_> i guess im still super naive but i feel like it should be accaptable to have a system that doesnt break at the slightest prodding
<pie_> and that means metadata too
<pie_> maybe ive got my manties in a bunch over nothing :p
<joepie91> it's nice if you can build such a system, the problem is that increased robustness often comes at the expense of other things
<pie_> yeah
<joepie91> and it's difficult (often impossible) to make that tradeoff determination without knowing the context
<joepie91> which is what the threat model is for :P
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<pie_> leanring this stuff in a vacuum sucks
<joepie91> it's also useful to keep in mind that everyday systems that have been running for many years, outside of IT, are super prone to fucking with them
<pie_> my brain isnt so good that everything sticks the first time :( or im just learning wrong
<joepie91> like, it isn't especially difficult to take down your local electricity grid
<pie_> i guess
<joepie91> or poison the water supply
<pie_> but the state isnt interested in taking down the electricity grid
<joepie91> but people don't do this, because why would they
<pie_> unless for false flags or something :P
<joepie91> and this is where 'incentives' come in
<pie_> right
<pie_> th enecessity of capability and incentive even i figured out
<pie_> to be able to do something...you have to be able to do itű
<pie_> but then you have to actually want to do it
<pie_> gchristensen: whois privacy is a thing by default now?
<gchristensen> eh?
<pie_> does gandi.net hide my whois info
<gchristensen> `whois gsc.io` to find out? :P
<pie_> nope
<pie_> got your contact info
<joepie91> that's not a great metric
<pie_> err
<joepie91> WHOIS privacy allowedness varies by TLD
<pie_> rather your name and state
<pie_> joepie91: ah yeah?
<joepie91> and some registrars will hide your info by default if you're in the EU (because GDPR) but otherwise not
<pie_> right
<gchristensen> whois grahamc.com
<joepie91> some registrars do that for everyone
<joepie91> some registrars (like internetbs) have been offering it as a free option since long before the gdpr
<pie_> gchristensen: that one looks better
<pie_> guess ill look at internetbs
<joepie91> in pretty much every case, the details of the WHOIS policy are listed on the registrar's site
<pie_> joepie91: whats the "name" field in the dns record manager?
<pie_> it defaults to @ (or thats just empty, im not sure)
<pie_> im trying to figure out how to make a *.mail.example.com
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<joepie91> pie_: no idea, I don't use their DNS, I don't know if they support wildcard records (most DNS services don't)
<joepie91> I just point it at dns.he.net
<pie_> ok
<pie_> i was thinking id set up my own dns but later
<pie_> (interesting how china and russia have no nodes http://he.net/3d-map/)
<sphalerite> pie_: @ is the domain without a subdomain
<sphalerite> pie_: you can try putting *.mail in
<pie_> yeah meanwhile i figured out @ means "root" and name is the, yeah *.mail in name
<pie_> worked
<pie_> i should probably read a book on dns or something
<pie_> any pointers
<sphalerite> 21595 IN PTR lugn.soundray.org.
<sphalerite> (scnr)
<pie_> :P
<pie_> ,locate dig
<{^_^}> Found in packages: bind.dnsutils
<pie_> wtf it told me its in bind
<gchristensen> in reflection of the start of Yom Kippur, and in the spirit of atonement, I'm thinking about this response in Litany of Atonement by Rob Eller-Issacs: "We forgive ourselves and each other; we begin again in love."
<pie_> sphalerite: i added *.mail and mail both, but nothing is showing up on mail. do i have to wait for my ttl? i didnt need to wait for the wildcard (because it wasnt cached yet? but if its about caching, it should still have it when i had an mx set on the top level...)
<sphalerite> yes probably caching
<pie_> i mean, i set an mx for my top level but when i removed it and added *.mail it seemed to immediately work
<pie_> err
<pie_> well ok ill wait a bit
<pie_> ive got ttl at 10 minutes so shouldnt be too bad
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<samueldr> really generic linux question: isn't it udev that adds /dev/disk/by-* symlinks? if so, is it by an internal rule? it doesn't seem to be in /etc/udev/rules.d
<infinisil> Probably hardcoded yeah
<samueldr> looks like it's provided in another way, and that I was copying it to the target device (comparing to my local computer)
<samueldr> though it somehow doesn't apply to the local storage of *that* phone :/
<samueldr> it doesn't in stage-1, it will within stage-2
<buckley310> I was under the impression that everything under /dev/ was handled by the kernel through devtmpfs
<samueldr> my understanding is that devtmpfs does a chunk of it, but udev does the rest
<buckley310> interesting
<gchristensen> adisbladis: do you have any info / links w.r.t. sddm & sway / sddm & i3?
<pie_> OH. I HAVE TO ADD ALIASES MANUALLY. I just thought i set the domain stuff and aliases magically come into existence when they receive mail
<qyliss> I just discovered fonts.fontconfig.allowBitmaps = false and now my eyes no longer bleed when web pages like https://oss-security.openwall.org/wiki/mailing-lists/oss-security try to use Lucinda
<gchristensen> ohhhhhhh
<adisbladis> gchristensen: It's nothing special
<adisbladis> For sddm
<adisbladis> It's just your standard xdg desktop session definitions
<gchristensen> hrm
<gchristensen> I'll have to try it once https://buildkite.com/grahamc/nix-install-matrix/builds/72#_ finishes :)
<samueldr> hmm! looks like udev doesn't start; will need some more debugging but it's possible something is not yet ready that it needs
<samueldr> that would explain why the symlinks aren't created
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<__monty__> qyliss: How bad does it look?
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<eyJhb> Anybody experienced this problem on a Macbook 12" 2016 model? Sometimes it works if you get the screen in perfect rotation - https://i.imgur.com/KPYWvGa.jpg
<eyJhb> Happened a couple of weeks after some idiot store replaced the back of it + battery for 5.000,- DKK
<eyJhb> > DKK 5000
<{^_^}> "5000 DKK = 750.000000 USD"
<gchristensen> :o currency conversions? lol
<eyJhb> I can't remember who got tired of my DKK, but somebody did it yeah :p
<eyJhb> Maybe sphalerite ?
<samueldr> something something not a general purpose programming language
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<worldofpeace> eyJhb: I followed through with my idea :D https://discourse.nixos.org/t/thanks-everyone/4310
<samueldr> anyone has a gut feeling about why udevd won't start in an init script, but will in a (dropbear) ssh session? error is `Assertion 'close_nointr(fd) != -EBADF' failed at src/basic/fd-util.c:71, function safe_close(). Aborting.`
<samueldr> though the assertion along doesn't tell me what's up, setting more debug info to track it down
<samueldr> ooh, got a feeling about the console output, the ssh session "had an output", while it could be that the initrd didn't; I've been having weirdness with that device
<samueldr> stripping console= from /proc/cmdline; arguments that were in the OEM cmdlines, fixed the issues :)
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<infinisil> Ugh, some youtuber made a word filter for things that sound like bad words, which can be very useful. Now he made a video "publishing" the code because others might find it useful
<infinisil> And by "publishing" he meant a friggin web api for it, a web api!
<infinisil> Like come on, he probably used dozens of open source projects as dependencies
<samueldr> infinisil: in case you didn't know https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Affero_General_Public_License
<samueldr> there's a license for that
<samueldr> though it's not uncontroversial :)
<infinisil> Well we can't know he used some such dependencies
<infinisil> Wouldn't surprise me though
<drakonis> hmm, i'm confused about something, the hell is slnos and why wont oxij stop talking about it?
<gchristensen> slnos is Suckless NixOS, which is nixos but ... suckless I guess. oxij is the SLNOS project's pope
<samueldr> suckless nixos, a private fork he's been maintaining with a philosophy closer to suckless'
<qyliss> does slnos, like, exist?
<samueldr> privately apparently
<joepie91> suckless :(
<samueldr> so in a sense, "yes"
<drakonis> he keeps talking about it on issues but you never see the code
<samueldr> but for all practical purposes, it sounds more like a thought experiment
<drakonis> idgi
<{^_^}> #54188 (by danbst, 37 weeks ago, open): New `nixos` executable
<qyliss> also our tor browser comes from the SLNOS GitHub org for some reason
<qyliss> which i've never been very comfortable with
<gchristensen> qyliss: wat
<qyliss> the patches are pretty minimal, but i didn't like that i had to go and diff it myself
<gchristensen> qyliss: oh no
<qyliss> the patches are basically to stop it writing out of XDG_DATA_HOME, as I recall?
<qyliss> but Tor doesn't seem like good software to be patching
<qyliss> oh, hmm, am I wrong?
<samueldr> or at the very least, loudly and built in the repo?
<drakonis> and given oxij's propensity to be patching things
<drakonis> he has patches
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<drakonis> he patches tor this is not good
<qyliss> yeah
<qyliss> I've read them, and they do look fine...
<qyliss> but I still don't like it
<drakonis> github's UI is not fit for looking at patches
<infinisil> I'm also not very comfortable with slnos mysteriousness
<drakonis> same
<qyliss> I'm going to open a PR to pull from upstream
<infinisil> +1
<qyliss> I'll go through the patches and figure out if anything's worth keeping
<drakonis> there's also nix and nixpkgs forks from 2017
<samueldr> I think you're making too much of "a thing", it's just someone's derivative that's being kept secret; tor-browser patches notwithstanding in this statement
<samueldr> oxij can keep the secret fork as they please
<qyliss> I'm only talking about the Tor thing
<samueldr> yeah, that wasn't addressed to you qyliss :)
<gchristensen> for me, it seems unwise to be pulling something as sensitive and complicated as the tor browser from a fork
<samueldr> the tor patches are of concern
<gchristensen> not to mention the "up-to-date"edness
<drakonis> for some reason the tor derivation has multiple packages?
<drakonis> firefox esr 52
<samueldr> as long as upstream is maintaining them it's not an issue
<samueldr> ESR is the extended support releases
<drakonis> they arent maintaining esr 52 anymore
<drakonis> mozilla that is
<drakonis> neither tor supports a version that old
<qyliss> I'll kill that in the same PR
<samueldr> then it's an issue
<drakonis> the latest firefox esr is 60
<qyliss> Which is what current tor-browser is based on
<drakonis> yes
<drakonis> esr 52 users get force bumped into 60
<samueldr> it's amazing, that one console= bug basically fixed all the issues specific to that one phone in early boot :3
<qyliss> :D
<drakonis> noice
<drakonis> tor's description is totally a thing that oxij would write lmao
<qyliss> Can we tone down the ad hominems?
<drakonis> yes
<drakonis> i'll stop it now
<gchristensen> qyliss++
<{^_^}> qyliss's karma got increased to 11
<qyliss> Thank you
<qyliss> I can't link this discussion in the eventual PR now
<drakonis> my bad
<drakonis> axe this one line from the logs tho
<samueldr> I can't, and won't
<drakonis> aight
<samueldr> I even let the decidedly rude ascii art from the spammers that one time
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<qyliss> samueldr++
<{^_^}> samueldr's karma got increased to 122
<samueldr> I don't want to cast any doubts about editing the logs
<samueldr> though, now thinking about it... maybe an addition for spam which greys them out a bunch could be good, but I still wouldn't mark a user's words as spam
<qyliss> here's the SLNOS diff, btw: https://0x0.st/zw5n.diff
<qyliss> it just reverts three upstream commits
<qyliss> None of this looks like it's required for NixOS, so I'm going to propose dropping all three reverts and just switching to upstream
<drakonis> just three?
<gchristensen> let's move to -dev
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<eyJhb> worldofpeace!!! Nice! Good with a little thanks to the people who helped! I myself didn't do jack squat :p
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<eyJhb> Praying to the IT gods, that everything will work for my presentation+demo tomorrow after this upgrade of NixOS :D
<eyJhb> Else I can always switch back, because, NixOS <3
<worldofpeace> exactly!!!! Though I probably wouldn't be brave to mutate my setup like that after having to do something like that
<joepie91> I am not going to space today
<gchristensen> oops
<joepie91> no idea what broke
<joepie91> worked fine previously
<joepie91> just doesn't boot anymore now
<joepie91> booted into install image, mounted from there, worked fine
<joepie91> clearly the block devices and filesystem are fine\
<joepie91> guess I'll debug it tomorrow
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<tokudan> i realize it's a bit late as an addition to the release notes, but would it make sense to add a note about the new feature system.autoUpgrade.allowReboot? i completely forgot that when working on the PR back then
<samueldr> tokudan: not too late, late, but not too late :)
<samueldr> tokudan: open a PR targeting master, adking for backport, or doing the backport PR yourself :)
<tokudan> samueldr, gotta look up how to change that first ;)
<tokudan> samueldr, is that a highlight or does it belong into Other Notable Changes?
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<tokudan> i've added it to other notable changes now in PR: https://github.com/NixOS/nixpkgs/pull/70887
<{^_^}> #70887 (by tokudan, 43 seconds ago, open): Update to PR #64267, add missing release notes.
<tokudan> i haven't build the documentation locally as it's past 1am here
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