<supersandro2000>
I really love when people recommend something in one post and recommend against it in another post
<tomberek>
gotta hedge your bets, eh?
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<supersandro2000>
tomberek: I don't fully understand what you mean
<supersandro2000>
or when it is recommended to use X and Y but X blocks Y...
<siraben>
supersandro2000: what are you referring to exactly
<supersandro2000>
siraben: I read a guide and it recommended to use windows in s mode but also to use veracrypt
<supersandro2000>
in s mode you can only load things from the Microsoft store
<supersandro2000>
When I think a bit more about I think that was for Linux only
<siraben>
supersandro2000: what's s mode?
<supersandro2000>
some strict mode which amongst other things block installing/running normal exe files not from the windows store
<siraben>
ew
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<colemickens>
huh, I just lost tailscale connectivity to one of my nodes too.
<colemickens>
that or azure made my whole node go away for a bit without telling me or who knows
<colemickens>
oh no, yikes, I can access it via the front door but not tailscale
<colemickens>
and tailscale logs full of "connect: network unreachable" ?
<colemickens>
hm
<colemickens>
gchristensen: I'll be curious to hear more about your woes/fixes/etc.
<colemickens>
of course it booted me in the middle of debugging smart card stuffs, in a moment where I was highly relying on that channel being open. yay for windows gpg being reliable at least.
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<colemickens>
same thing too, one machine can still connect, the other cant
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<philipp[m]>
lol openvpn via tcp/443. Somebody has been a victim of bad firewalls.
<MichaelRaskin>
We just need to make the next step from sslh and have a https/ssh/openvpn combo. Maybe with wg thrown in.
<pie_>
someone seems to really be pushing an anti-encryption or ssl interception narrative these days or something (or my bubble), or theyre marketing their FUD security products hard, i keep getting news articles about "the dark side of encryption" and intercepting proxies and pushing security to the cloud for data analysis or something
<philipp[m]>
MichaelRaskin: Wen need this https via udp thing to make our vpns faster!!!
<eyJhb>
pie_: The NSA is targeting you to join them.
<__monty__>
Pushing security to the cloud? What marketeer came up with that genius idea?
<joepie91>
cloudflare, probably
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<gchristensen>
I would just adore a tool that was like `systemctl cat run-macos-vm.service` but it automaticalyl cat'd the ExecXxxx's if they're bash scripts
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<eyJhb>
gchristensen: Agreed. Use that waaay too much
<hodapp>
hmm, should I try to put Nix on my shiny new M1 Macbook like 90% because I just don't feel like learning Homebrew's weird terms?
<hodapp>
and always forget whether it's 'brew ferment --keg=http://whatever' or 'brew hops --type=mosaic --method=dry' or whatever the hell to make brew actually do the thing for real
<joepie91>
lmao
<hodapp>
I'm joking, of course, but only barely.
<srhb>
barley*
<gchristensen>
lol
<hodapp>
okay, my jokes were silly... but that was the worst one of the malt
<hodapp>
er, them all*
<srhb>
It's okay, we all reach that point when we have so many feelings bottled up.
<hodapp>
yes, sometimes they're just fermenting from the bottom.
<hodapp>
but many people ignore the specific gravity of the situation.
<srhb>
Oooh, nice
<srhb>
You brew, clearly :D
<gchristensen>
last time I brewed I had to replace my landlord's sofa
<srhb>
... what did you do
<hodapp>
hah... I have brewed. I've only done 3-4 batches of beer and I quickly realized that (1) I was in a city with so many breweries, so many *good* breweries, and so many friends who brew, and they all did it better than me, and (2) I don't really drink that much beer
<hodapp>
95% of my fermentation for the past 5 years has been sauerkraut and sourdough
<srhb>
hodapp: Ah ok. Specific gravity is just not something people would normally riff on :D
<srhb>
I don't brew, but I have two friends who do. One makes great beer which unfortunately is usually too "IPA" or too "Ale" for me, the other brews mead, and I _love_ it, but she doesn't do it enough :P
<gchristensen>
the airlock got clogged and it spewed wort all over the couch and ceiling
<srhb>
gchristensen: Yikes!
<gchristensen>
it was a thing :)
<hodapp>
gchristensen: eeek. my worst was when I made bottle bombs when going a ginger beer
<hodapp>
I crimped the caps normally. The caps held just fine. That wasn't the problem. The problem was the rest of the glass...
<srhb>
Yeah.. The aforementioned "mead" was champagne yeast style. Needs some serious bottles.
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* hodapp
goes back to look at Nix support on Apple Silicon instead of talk about beer :P
<eyJhb>
hodapp: You can do both?
<hodapp>
this is true
<hodapp>
possibly dumb question: do any sort of graphical apps work through Nix outside of on Linux?
<hexa->
I noticed that I am very impatient with my own pull requests and I feel like they've been open longer than they've actually been open.
<hexa->
at least if they've been open for >4-5 days
<srhb>
I think that's probably generalizable :P
<srhb>
To more than pull requests at least (and, probably, others than you)
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<philipp[m]>
It's really impressive how my countries catastrophe warning system never misses a severe weather warning for my area*
<philipp[m]>
* posted 15 minutes after the severe weather is done being severe.
<andi->
at least it reached you.
<andi->
Can't say that about my location.
<philipp[m]>
You also just got hit by that thunderstorm in the berlin area?
<lassulus>
that was awesome
<pie_>
lassulus loves the thunderstorms
<eyJhb>
^
<pie_>
they are pretty good
<pie_>
igotta say
<lassulus>
the was a lighting like right on top of my building, that was pretty cool
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<philipp[m]>
Also went directly over our heads. Pretty awesome.
<eyJhb>
I am getting the sun in my eyes here. Which is weird and annoying. would rather have rain/thunder. But I guess not THAT MUCH so that they put out a alert for it.
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<lovesegfault>
I can play Battlefield 5 on 4K Ultra on Linux :D
<samueldr>
>> The price for this model? $799. There's also an annual fee of $180 that kicks in a year after purchase, which covers Oculus' business services and support
<joepie91>
samueldr: this is 100% a CYA move
<joepie91>
they are trying to circumvent the GDPR by exploiting that disastrous ruling that you can put up a forced cookiewall if you offer a cookie-free version even if it involves a subscription cost
<samueldr>
that's what I said to the friend who shared the news with me
<samueldr>
but for other reasons
<joepie91>
(which I'm still pretty sure is incorrect)
<joepie91>
so providing it at a ridiculous price is the point here, they don't want people to actually buy it
<samueldr>
well "other" reasons, probably more related to similar yet-to-exist reasons in the USA
<joepie91>
they just need something to tell the regulator "but see, we gave them the option!"
<samueldr>
I love how there's an annual fee to use the thing
<samueldr>
because it means it's still using the backend services from occulus/fb
<samueldr>
and you're not any more the owner of the device than with the other version
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<colemickens>
I've increasingly noticed guix posts following a similar, though overall scaled down, trend as Nix.
<colemickens>
More blog posts, more projects that seem to support/mention it, etc. It seems that the types of people that comment about NixOS commonly know of Guix too, etc.
<drakonis>
its not without reason, really.
<drakonis>
people seem to have an easier time dealing with lisp
<drakonis>
better ux across the board
* colemickens
makes a face, but then remembers his first ~6 months of Nix
<ldlework>
I feel like I figured out nixlang, but the "stdlib" is so confusing
<ldlework>
It feels like php with all the oddly named things that don't reveal what they do, have to look at source because the documentation is missing, etc
<samueldr>
organically grown "stdlib"
<eyJhb>
ldlework: It is a contious question of `where?`
<ldlework>
some of the code in the "stdlib" is actually in the package manager
<colemickens>
definitely agree
<colemickens>
need to have 2-3 doc pages open, sort of have intuition for where I need to go
<colemickens>
I know to google "trivial-builders.nix" sometimes, or attrsets or lists.nix to get to the source
<ldlework>
The *****only***** reason I am able to use NixOS is because of unfettered charity.
<drakonis>
guix has vastly cleaner code than nixpkgs as wel
<samueldr>
[opinions may vary]
<ldlework>
If the charity ever dried up, I'd be up creek.
<drakonis>
sure
<eyJhb>
Nixpkgs should really work towards a cleanup :/
<eyJhb>
But that is h ard.
<drakonis>
its also consistent
<colemickens>
ldlework: I might even agree with that too, I have a huge amount of gratitude for irc folks that helped me over initial humps
<hodapp>
this is one of my gripes too... I have to cargo-cult a lot based on what other packages say
<hodapp>
and I have to pester people with a whole lot of questions
<samueldr>
one thing that mostly prevents Nixpkgs cleanups is how there is no interface guarantees, and the current status quo is "don't break the interface"
<samueldr>
which is good for external users
<samueldr>
but makes any revamp effort pretty much a non-starter
<eyJhb>
But don't we reach a point, where it _needs_ to be done?
<samueldr>
everything in Nixpkgs, be it libs, or the package sets, are interfaces that we currently strive not to change
<drakonis>
they also have some other goals that advance things up
<eyJhb>
Is there any stdlib link/source for guix one can read?
<drakonis>
yes
<colemickens>
eyJhb: just close your eyes and dream of a nickel-based nixpkgs2
* colemickens
(don't @ me) :P
<drakonis>
assuming that nixpkgs2 gets anywhere as much traction as the first one
<joepie91>
ie. the network API versioning approach
<joepie91>
samueldr: how so?
<drakonis>
i've been reasonably impressed at the pace of useful stuff being included in the repos
<joepie91>
like, is there something specific about Nix that makes this hard? this is pretty routinely done in HTTP API dev
<samueldr>
all the exposed interactions within pkgs.* that are technically part of the interface
<__monty__>
Also a bit funny to keep the "interface" really consistent but be really harsh on dropping packages and versions.
<joepie91>
samueldr: not sure I understand
<samueldr>
making an interface on top of Nixpkgs2 that stays compatible with Nixpkgs(1) will be hard work
<colemickens>
drakonis: sounds like you're in that space enough to maybe answer - can I see a self-contained rpi4 system, for example? If I had self contained system to play with it'd be more likely that I actually play with it more
<eyJhb>
samueldr: But it would be sooo satisfying!
<samueldr>
__monty__: inconsistency in applying those unwritten guidelines
<colemickens>
samueldr: sounds awful
<drakonis>
i think there's a config for that
<drakonis>
let me look it up
<colemickens>
both as a goal and the work it'd take
<joepie91>
samueldr: I don't understand what you mean with "exposed interactions within pkgs.*" - we're talking about the stdlib here, no? ie. the lib.* stuff and such
<colemickens>
do people like the "interfaces" in nixpkgs? (he asks, respectfully)
<joepie91>
bleh
<joepie91>
when markdown formatting goes wrong
<samueldr>
I don't think it's an stdlib-only problem
<drakonis>
one thing i enjoy about guix is that it feels a lot more whole than nix
<colemickens>
I like the module system, but the implicit interfaces that I think are being referenced, not as much
<drakonis>
the ecosystem
<samueldr>
stdlib is probably the part that requires the least changes
<joepie91>
* samueldr: I don't understand what you mean with "exposed interactions within pkgs.\*" - we're talking about the stdlib here, no? ie. the lib.\* stuff and such
<colemickens>
what about the firefox wrapper?
<samueldr>
I know now what you mean
<colemickens>
that's used externally and broke things when it changed, for example
<samueldr>
but really, pkgs.*, stuff like package sets each being independently organically grown, no common interfaces
<drakonis>
you can get rpi4 to work if you use nonguix btw
<samueldr>
that's the real issue
<joepie91>
samueldr: but... isn't stdlib what we're complaining about here?
<samueldr>
changing stdlib is probably trivial
<samueldr>
well, I wasn't
<samueldr>
[17:11:39] <samueldr> everything in Nixpkgs, be it libs, or the package sets, are interfaces that we currently strive not to change
<joepie91>
I think that's the original complaint of ldlework and hodapp though
<samueldr>
and a "Nixpkgs2" only for lib.* imho is not worhtwhile
<samueldr>
reall what needs a good cleanup is the inconsistency within pkgs.*
<samueldr>
really*
<joepie91>
but this is a different discussion :P
<samueldr>
that's what you seem to have decided, but early on I was talking about pkgs*
<samueldr>
but the discussion is really about the exposed interfaces for external users
<samueldr>
which is pkgs.*, of which lib is part of
<drakonis>
colemickens: what does a self-contained system entail?
<joepie91>
I don't understand at what point and why the scope changed from "pkgs.lib" to "pkgs" and I don't think I agree that the package set is the most pressing issue to begin with
<samueldr>
I guess what I'm saying never mattered?
<joepie91>
like, having a sensible stdlib to build the package set with seems like a prerequisite to me for fixing the package set itself
<joepie91>
and I agree with the original complaint that it's a maze of seemingly random utility functions where it's very difficult to figure out how to solve a given problem
<samueldr>
it is *too*
<colemickens>
drakonis: uh, idk, that link works well for what I was wanting
<colemickens>
drakonis: between that and the work I've done mucking with nixos+rpi4 maybe I can get it going.
<drakonis>
if you use the nonguix kernel package code as an example
<drakonis>
it should be good
<samueldr>
but really I think it's an all or nothing for the exposed interfaces, a partial change is not going to be enough
<colemickens>
drakonis: are you "converting"? do you have some guix systems? curious what your level of adoption is
<drakonis>
but i swear i've seen something on their repos related to it
<drakonis>
colemickens: i am
<samueldr>
because while lib is part of the problem, the inconsistency in pkgs.* is imo the real goal, "only" fixing stdlib doesn't seem worthwhile when in reality so many "utilities" are not in lib
<samueldr>
you're more likely to deal with fetch* inconsistencies, or package set inconsistencies than lib issues
<ldlework>
to be clear, nixpkgs is just as confusing
<samueldr>
and those are, AFAICT from people close to me using Nixpkgs, the crux of the issue
<colemickens>
drakonis: neat, I'd be an interested reader/watcher if you wrote or gave a talk about it
<drakonis>
don't get me wrong about the nix ecosystem, but its beginning to crumble under its own weight now
<ldlework>
there seems to be a part of it where every single package is listed, but it's also orgnaized into folders, and to put a package in nixpkgs you write it completely differently than if you were writing it locally for your own system configuration, dependencies come in magically, you need a bunch of random utility stuff from other parts of nixpkgs for building ui toolkits and so on
<__monty__>
joepie91: You're suggesting gutting lib to make it a shim over a new one? Doesn't that just make for the one-more-standard kind of thing? pkgs would slowly but never completely migrate so now packagers have not only the current mess to deal with but some stuff on top? It's very pragmatic but imo you can't call it a short term solution.
<colemickens>
gchristensen: not trying to spam you, but did you get your tailscale stuff sorted?
<ldlework>
I know I wont be contributing to nixpkgs anytime soon, not because I don't have anything to offer, but just because I know that it means learning an entirely new domain expertise that I honestly don't actually want.
<joepie91>
__monty__: typically the old interface gets deprecated after enough time has passed (or a major release cycle, in the case of software). the point of gut-and-alias is just to not have to maintain two implementations during the transition period - as both the old and new API have a stable interface, the translation only needs to be written once and does not need to be changed after that
<drakonis>
trying to write a new package requires either miming existing stuff or knowing how all the magic works
<gchristensen>
colemickens: yeah, it turned out upgrading from versions the support team describes as "ancient" helps
<ldlework>
I wrote a bunch of nix tooling for installing Go-playing tools and stuff and released it as baduk.nix and I remember some people took a look at it and were like "I'd use this if it were in nixpkgs"
<ldlework>
and I was like "I bet."
<joepie91>
also yes, I agree that the weird mismatch between 'nixpkgs contribution' and 'local package' is super confusing
<joepie91>
I don't want to run my entire system off a local fork that I need to maintain, but there's also no obvious migration path from "package declared in config" to "package contribution to nixpkgs"
<drakonis>
there's a lot of fragmentation going on as well
<joepie91>
ideally I could just copy-paste the local definition into a nixpkgs checkout, PR it, and forget about it
<drakonis>
the various *2nix packaages
<drakonis>
which nowadays live in various states of maintainership, which isnt ideal.
* joepie91
mumbles something about working groups
<drakonis>
we used to have a few of those back then, didnt we?
<drakonis>
there's how many deployment tools right now? 5?
<drakonis>
i wish it was easier to maintain a local repository
<drakonis>
even with flakes, it still doesnt quite do it
<drakonis>
colemickens: not sure if i'd actually manage to do either
<mjlbach>
I mean, you're dealing with a fraction of the packages, with less automation and a mailing list model
<mjlbach>
I use guix for guile, and that's about it
<drakonis>
ehhh
<drakonis>
less automation, what?
<drakonis>
also, a fraction of the packages? not really
<drakonis>
also what is wrong iwth mailing lists?
<drakonis>
i've seen guix gain a surprisingly large amount of packages in a year
<drakonis>
i know nixpkgs has the kitchen sink, but guix is no slouch
<drakonis>
it isn't just for guile, honestly.
<drakonis>
how i wish it was just for that, then i wouldnt even consider using it for anything
<colemickens>
those all seem like emergent properties of the guix ecosystem rather than inherent properties of guix itself. which doesn't change them, I guess.
<mjlbach>
Ofborg, nixpkgs-review, cachix related hooks, github actions, etc. You can go into the weeds on the numbers, but repology unique packages puts nix at 7442 unique packages, and guix at 2873, with notable omissions including KDE plasma desktop
<mjlbach>
Unless that's changed in the past couple months
<mjlbach>
Also guix only recently got a working go importer (not sure if it's merged yet?)
<colemickens>
drakonis: I'd be curious for you to elaborate. the "it's all guile" is part of what seems appealing ot me
<mjlbach>
I use it just for guile, I was not saying it's used just for guile to clarify
<drakonis>
kde is wip last i checked
<mjlbach>
Re: mailing list, I know it's preference but I find bumping a package revision on github to be much easier to do as a drive by than submitting/merging a mailinst list patch
<drakonis>
irc is also a main communication channel
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<drakonis>
i believe guix has patch testing available
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<mjlbach>
Oh also r-ryantm, don't know how I forgot about that :)
<drakonis>
ehhh
<drakonis>
using fresh packages in guix is surprisingly easy
<mjlbach>
Sure, it's easy with nix too (nixpkgs-update)
<drakonis>
these tools are used to manage the amount of PRs nixpkgs gets
<drakonis>
dont you have to push a update to the tree to actually benefit from that?
<mjlbach>
Which indicates nixpkgs is fresh and has a large package set?
<drakonis>
okay, sure?
<drakonis>
guix lets you do package transformations from the cli
<drakonis>
its neat, really.
<samueldr>
all of this currently sounds like looking over the fence and marvelling at the greener grass
<drakonis>
dont need to manage a whole separate tree for this
<drakonis>
i'm aware of what switching entails
<drakonis>
but seriously, patching my packages to use nvidia's drivers was a breeze, besides the compilation times of course
<DigitalKiwi>
mjlbach: where does it say these numbers you're getting
<drakonis>
hmm, the top level packages count i gave for nixpkgs is higher than it should be, as it counts unversioned packages
<drakonis>
versioned ones, that is.
<drakonis>
regarding all the nixpkgs automation
<drakonis>
there is something i cant help but ask
<drakonis>
why do the builds break so frequently?
<DigitalKiwi>
which ones?
<samueldr>
"break so frequently" is awfully vague
<samueldr>
not everything is "covered" by "automation"
<DigitalKiwi>
haskell? stackage
<drakonis>
nixpkgs
<samueldr>
still awfully vague
<drakonis>
unstable is broken right now
<drakonis>
nixos-unstable went for about a week without building
<drakonis>
a while back
<samueldr>
from what I know, issues are all distinct
<drakonis>
the current period is 2 days
<samueldr>
currently the amazon image has started being too big to be output
<samueldr>
well, to be used by hydra
<drakonis>
i see
<samueldr>
which is unrelated to any kind of automation
<samueldr>
it's not like there is a coverage of 100% of everything before it gets into hydra
<DigitalKiwi>
i expect it's because maintainers don't do anything
<samueldr>
it's more like 90%, the obvious issues
<DigitalKiwi>
oh simpson isn't here ;(
<samueldr>
DigitalKiwi: not sure what you're implying
<samueldr>
drakonis: the main thin I've observed right now is that all recent "nixpkgs is broken" issues all had different root causes, and nothing trivial
<drakonis>
i understand.
<samueldr>
and it's broken in ways that we should be glad it breaks, because it's been catching some odd hard to see issues
<samueldr>
>> that gets us to the next issue: being a maintainer doesn't mean to much. If I know that you know what you are doing I am more forgiving but I don't know all people who know what they are doing :P
<samueldr>
DigitalKiwi: mark my words that I don't agree that maintainers don't mean anything
<DigitalKiwi>
i don't even bother with making/reviewing PRs anymore
* colemickens
reads some scrollback, loudly laughs out loud
<mjlbach>
Back to less controversial topics, one thing I do like in guix is the --container flag for environment
<mjlbach>
it would be nice to have something similar for nix shell
<mjlbach>
or whatever nix shell turns into
<DigitalKiwi>
a lot of times i'll update something and then the bot will make a PR while i'm testing it >.>
<DigitalKiwi>
nixpkgs-review nix-build etc. have about a 3/5 chance of causing me to have to reboot though so...
<DigitalKiwi>
for the more complicated/important stuff i get to it as fast as i can but it usually gets merged before i even comment so what's the point