gchristensen changed the topic of #nixos-chat to: NixOS but much less topical || https://logs.nix.samueldr.com/nixos-chat
<energizer> the executor is just the runtime, the scheduling strategy is "run them in reverse"?
<gchristensen> this is C
<samueldr> only for a subset of async functionalities
<samueldr> nothing runs asynchrouously with defer
<lovesegfault> right, this is all synchronous
<energizer> there's nothing async about `await` in python either :D
<lovesegfault> there are no promises/futures
<gchristensen> hehe
<gchristensen> fair enough
<energizer> lovesegfault: exactly
<lovesegfault> I don't think that's true, right? You can be asynchronous without being threaded
<lovesegfault> python async is not parallel, but it's still async
<energizer> right, but you dont need promises either
<lovesegfault> I'm confident if we drill down this discussion we will reach my "will not be taking any questions" opinion of programming which is " everything is just a lookup table" :P
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<lovesegfault> it's LUTs all the way down
<gchristensen> and assembly is a pure functional language with a very special runtime
<energizer> lovesegfault: oh "I don't think that's true" was for me?
<samueldr> gchristensen: every instructions purely functional
<lovesegfault> energizer: yeah
<lovesegfault> samueldr: that just follows from them being lookup tables
<energizer> lovesegfault: it's really the concurrency library (asyncio,trio,twisted,tornado) and select/epoll that make async. `await` is just sugar over `yield from`
<gchristensen> this got super meta when the topic was C support for defer :P
<energizer> haha oops :)
<lovesegfault> :D
<infinisil> lovesegfault: Still trying to come up with an example that would require defer.. There may be none!
<lovesegfault> infinisil: I'm trying too!
<lovesegfault> I think if you use that guard pattern and Drop you completely replace defer
<infinisil> If you allocate a resource, it makes sense to return that resource as an object -> destructor/drop
* lovesegfault nods
<infinisil> I can imagine defers being used to just do state modifications though, because destructors can't be used for that
<infinisil> But, when do you even want to "undo" some state change?
<infinisil> Like, unconditionally
* lovesegfault nods
<gchristensen> defer certainly makes sense for C
<gchristensen> whereas drop does not
<lovesegfault> Right, I don't think we're talking about C, but just language design in general
<lovesegfault> (at least I am)
<gchristensen> aye
<lovesegfault> the claims I'm making are:
<infinisil> Yeah
<gchristensen> I wish we could get away from C, but we really really can't, since it is the basis for all FFI
<lovesegfault> 1. Drop + Guard is superior to defer in almost every way, and covers almost all the same cases
<lovesegfault> that's it, there's one claim, I thought there'd be more :P
<infinisil> lovesegfault: I typed out this whole example before I realized what a stupid use case that would be: https://paste.infinisil.com/fyixo27Z4Y.c
<lovesegfault> I have to say, I'm writing a rust library to fetch data from Discogs, which exposes a JSON/REST api and I hate it so much
<lovesegfault> I wish json had a schema and I could just autogen the code
<lovesegfault> or, damn, at least types!
* lovesegfault looks at example
<gchristensen> yeah a shame xml is not better
<energizer> lovesegfault: post an example?
<lovesegfault> lol infinisil, I read it and was like "ah this is nice... wait a moment!"
<lovesegfault> energizer: infinisi* linked it above
<lovesegfault> oh, wait, an example of what energizer?
<energizer> lovesegfault: i mean the data
<energizer> json
<lovesegfault> gchristensen: The real shame is protobuf/flatbuf also not being as good as they could be
<lovesegfault> energizer: https://www.discogs.com/developers#page:database,header:database-release
<gchristensen> I dunno I really don't like how protobuf has everything optional
<infinisil> lovesegfault: Yeah lol, why the heck would anybody want to do modifications to a running database just to simulate whether an update could be done
<infinisil> And then undo all changes
<gchristensen> nobody properly validates fields
<samueldr> valiwhat?
<lovesegfault> energizer: and the code I'm writing is here https://github.com/lovesegfault/malt
<lovesegfault> gchristensen: we use flatbuffers interally and they're alright
<lovesegfault> tooling is lacking
<energizer> lovesegfault: here's an openapi schema https://bpa.st/55BA
<energizer> of what, i dont know
<samueldr> quite obviously of objects having integers
<lovesegfault> TIL about openapi
<lovesegfault> Looks like Rust is supported!
<lovesegfault> energizer: where'd you get that schema?
<energizer> lovesegfault: i have a tool
<lovesegfault> tempting
<lovesegfault> lol L595 of that file is one I also don't know
<gchristensen> lol
<energizer> in i3, can you associate this monitor with these workspaces and that monitor with those workspaces, so switching to workspace 1-3 always appears on left monitor, and switching to workspace 4-6 always appears on right monitor?
<infinisil> I know you can do that in xmonad :D
<cole-h> Yes
<cole-h> (I think -- because I do it with sway)
<infinisil> But that's mainly just because you can do anything in xmonad, because it's just an arbitrary program lol
<energizer> is there a name for that setting in sway cole-h
<cole-h> energizer: The syntax (in sway, at least) is `workspace # output OUTPUTNAME`
<energizer> thanks
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<samueldr> gchristensen: it's not the only "funny" thing around there :)
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<cole-h> And it begins
<{^_^}> nix#4096 (by pickfire, 22 minutes ago, open): Remove title for nix-env
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<lovesegfault> cole-h: hurr durr look at me hacktoberfest
<lovesegfault> I hate this stuff
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<cole-h> (:
<{^_^}> #99224 (by pasanyasara, 9 minutes ago, closed): Description
<hexa-> here we go
<lovesegfault> hexa-: oh my god
<lovesegfault> that is the worst one I've seen yet
<{^_^}> MengTo/Spring#342 (by pasanyasara, 5 days ago, open): Fix typo in README
<{^_^}> MaheshaMuthumala/hello-world#3 (by pasanyasara, 6 days ago, open): Update hello
<{^_^}> virajani/dotty#1 (by pasanyasara, 6 days ago, open): Create contribution list
<{^_^}> virajani/StarPatterns#1 (by pasanyasara, 5 days ago, merged): update one
<lovesegfault> jesus
<hexa-> > Associate Software Engineer computer BSc (Hons) in Computer Science - University College Dublin
<{^_^}> error: syntax error, unexpected IN, expecting ')', at (string):324:49
<hexa-> idk
<lovesegfault> Yeah... right
<cole-h> zzzzz
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<{^_^}> #70188 (by pasanyasara, 1 year ago, closed): create contributions file
<lovesegfault> no way
<lovesegfault> what
<lovesegfault> wtf
<cole-h> Free swag!!!!!!!!
<lovesegfault> do they get anything by doing this?
<cole-h> Free t-shirt this year
<cole-h> 70k limited quantity
<lovesegfault> from github?
<abathur> lol
<samueldr> nope
<samueldr> digital ocean
<samueldr> I would say it might be a good idea to report invalid PRs to github, so it becomes *their* problem too
<samueldr> digital ocean has absolutely nothing of value to lose here, it's other people's projects, on a platform they don't own
<samueldr> so they don't get to deal with any fallout
<cole-h> lmao
<samueldr> while getting free publicity
<abathur> I mean
<lovesegfault> it's like a DoS attack on FOSS
<lovesegfault> lol
<samueldr> yes
<abathur> I'll happily tell them I'm crossing them off my list of VPS candidates
<cole-h> Reported for spam and blocked
<cole-h> I'm doing my part.
<samueldr> the thing is that particular user only lost a PR in the count
<samueldr> it doesn't even affect their standing with the event
<lovesegfault> it's ridiculous
<samueldr> if there was at least consequences from invalid PRs, it would help
<cole-h> I'm a little salty about that nixos/nix PR getting a nice round number
<samueldr> imagine if #100000 is an invalid PR
<cole-h> I'd have an aneurysm
<lovesegfault> I'll make that PR and it'll just be an empty commit with me saying #100000
<cole-h> Better not
<lovesegfault> I'm getting ready
<samueldr> at least make it an issue if you're going to waste it
<lovesegfault> good idea samueldr
<cole-h> lovesegfault: b e t t e r n o t
<samueldr> just don't waste it maybe?
<lovesegfault> bad idea
<abathur> just make it and then auction it off? :)
<lovesegfault> abathur: GOOD IDEA GOOD IDEA
<cole-h> lovesegfault: B E T T E R N O T
<lovesegfault> going to sell it for one bitcoin
<cole-h> oh no
<ashkitten> who cares about #100000 anyways, it's not even a nice number
<samueldr> ashkitten: 42069 is already in the past
<ashkitten> eh, try for #4294967296
<lovesegfault> #42069
<{^_^}> https://github.com/NixOS/nixpkgs/issues/42069 (by kirelagin, 2 years ago, open): haskell: All boot libraries get added to pkgdb
<lovesegfault> of course it had to be some haskell thing
<ashkitten> everything's a haskell thing if you're math enough
<lovesegfault> this reminds me
<lovesegfault> I have question to all of you to help settle a debate between my wife and I
<lovesegfault> here's the experiment:
<lovesegfault> 1. look down towards your feet/thighs (depending if you're up or sitting down)
<lovesegfault> 2. rotate your head in one direction, as if you were stretching your neck or something, complete a whole circle or two
<lovesegfault> 3. now rotate the other way
<sphalerite> gchristensen: can you ban pasanyasara from the nixos org like coretemp?
<lovesegfault> the question is: can one of these be referred to as clockwise?
<sphalerite> lovesegfault: yes
<ar> lovesegfault: yes, the rotation from right to left
<sphalerite> lovesegfault: both :D
<lovesegfault> To me clockwise only makes sense to things I'm looking at
<lovesegfault> if my point of reference is moving I can't reasonably say one or the other
<ashkitten> lovesegfault: i'd consider the frame of reference to be fixed on the base of the neck in this case
<samueldr> lovesegfault: I'd call that painful
<lovesegfault> samueldr: this arose during our yoga today, lol
<lovesegfault> she told me to rotate my head clockwise and I was like "hol up"
<lovesegfault> ashkitten: the base of my neck as in where it attaches to my torso?
<ashkitten> yeah
<lovesegfault> if so: clockwise if you're looking from the base upwards is counter-clockwise looking down at the base
<lovesegfault> which is where the head is
<ashkitten> i imagine the base of your neck is a circle and you are looking down from where your head is, looking toward your body
<lovesegfault> ashkitten: I see, so left shoulder->right shoulder rotation is clockwise
<ashkitten> wait, left-right?
<ashkitten> OH
<sphalerite> ar: argh!
<ashkitten> you meant
<ashkitten> tilt head
<lovesegfault> maybe, I need a drawing
<ashkitten> i can't do that on my phone
<ashkitten> i need a nap....
<sphalerite> I think I need to burn my hacktoberfest t-shirts.
<samueldr> sphalerite: no need to burn
<lovesegfault> sphalerite: tweet it at them
<lovesegfault> yeah, don't burn, compost them
<samueldr> cut them up into material for hand-swen covid masks (with the design hidden)
<samueldr> or non-covid masks too, halloween is coming
<ashkitten> agreed
<ashkitten> oh god halloween
<ashkitten> the germs
<samueldr> up here in Québec all the big regions are since midnight today "red zones"
<ashkitten> there had better not be any children going from house to house spreading disease this year
<sphalerite> fwiw I've reported pasanyasara on https://www.digitalocean.com/company/contact/#abuse and the report link in the menu on https://github.com/NixOS/nixpkgs/pull/99224
<{^_^}> #99224 (by pasanyasara, 1 hour ago, closed): Description
<samueldr> up to at least the 28th, so I don't think halloween will be a thing this year
* lovesegfault does it
<sphalerite> please do join me :)
<sphalerite> I might write a script to automate this, since I expect this will not be the last one we get this month…
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<cole-h> sphalerite: > like coretemp
<cole-h> Was this person banned in the past, or is this some other reference?
<sphalerite> yes, was banned in the past for being unfriendly/rude/highly demanding.
<cole-h> Ah, OK. Sounds like before my time.
<sphalerite> search for commenter:coretemp in nixpkgs if you want to get angry :p
* lovesegfault goes get angry
<lovesegfault> oh god
<sphalerite> I mean, it's a bit of a shame because they did make the occasional useful contribution. But that doesn't nearly justify the way they treated everyone else.
<samueldr> (the ban was only temporary IIRC)
<samueldr> (AFAIK we have zero permanently banned people)
<sphalerite> really? huh ok
<samueldr> oh, maybe one
<samueldr> not 100% sure though
<sphalerite> coretemp hasn't been back in any case
<samueldr> yep
<samueldr> getting a temporary (though not short) ban must have been enough of a chilling effect
<lovesegfault> yikes
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<sphalerite> samueldr: I suspect it's more likely that they threw the account away and created a new one.
<samueldr> that's for sure
<samueldr> but no one sprung up with coretemp-like behaviour
<lovesegfault> I was thinking the same
<lovesegfault> is there a lm_sensors?
<sphalerite> lol
<ar> there are some apparently-permanent bans here
<ar> /mode +b to see for yourself
<lovesegfault> not today devil
<ar> (https://dpaste.com/FHG7582EW.txt if you don't want to /mode +b)
<lovesegfault> those seem like spam accounts
<lovesegfault> nixos-mods, lol
<ar> well, that's just "importing" banlist from another channel
<sphalerite> huh, genesis is an actual person I seem to remember
<sphalerite> gchristensen: according to history, genesis's ban was supposed to be temporary :p
<lovesegfault> anyone interested in reviewing some Rust code?
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<ashkitten> lovesegfault: i'd love to look at shiny rust code
<ashkitten> feedback is extra
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<NinjaTrappeur> fancy :)
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<gchristensen> sphalerite: it was, but they were pretty insistent on continuing to be an ass
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<gchristensen> youtube has decided I want to watch all the videos about this guy who just 3d prints different fan designs
<pie_> well
<pie_> does he have any heavy metal fans
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<aanderse> has anyone tried running https://talonvoice.com/ on nixos yet?
<abathur> I don't even know what I did to convince yt I really want to watch train videos
<abathur> but it keeps suggesting multi-hour train videos to me
<abathur> *I may be exaggerating on the length of these videos :)
<gchristensen> aanderse: I took a look at it some time ago but it freaked me out
<aanderse> gchristensen: yeah? in what way?
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<gchristensen> it is free(beer) software but closed source, and listens to what I say and types things for me
<gchristensen> I don't trust that
<aanderse> right, right
<aanderse> i had some crazy reason i was thinking it was open source, but then i saw it went to public beta and was not open source
<gchristensen> and supposedly written by one guy. I dunno
<aanderse> would be interesting to run it in a jail and monitor network activity
<gchristensen> I'd trust it if I paid $300 for it :P
<aanderse> ha ha ha
<gchristensen> I mean that, actually. it is complicated software. $20 is too cheap in terms of the value it offers. I'd want to be paying enough for it where the developer is actually invested in me being the customer
<aanderse> yeah
<aanderse> or at least good voice software
<aanderse> not sure how much voice software exists for linux, though
<gchristensen> yeah
<gchristensen> I used aenia and caster, and the open dictation toolbox
<gchristensen> but it never really worked right. Dragon on Windows, though, is seriously amazing
<gchristensen> it uses their incredibly good accessibility controls to make it really seamless
<aanderse> sounds nice
<gchristensen> it is very persuasive to me w.r.t. windows
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<eyJhb> Anyone found anymore PRS regarding DO?
<andi-> Anyone here played with gtk4 in nixpkgs yet?
<gchristensen> I don't suppose anyone uses Outlook in their daily life
<gchristensen> I ask, in the channel *LEAST* likely to get any "yes"s
<eyJhb> gchristensen: SOMETIMES, why?
<gchristensen> is there a workflow that makes sense?
<gchristensen> like, it appears that I can't trivially make email go away once I'm done with it
<gchristensen> which is how I usually use email
<eyJhb> Guessing most just dump it into a folder to never look at again
<eyJhb> But I don't use it that much.... :/ Sorry
<gchristensen> guh
<eyJhb> The only one I know that uses it quite alot is my mother
<eyJhb> My dad usually just deletes everything
<pie_> aanderse: yes
<pie_> aanderse: i havent run it myself yet but ther are people that have worked on it so if you go on the slack you can ask the main dev
<pie_> oh huh <gchristensen> but it never really worked right. Dragon on Windows, though, is seriously amazing
<eyJhb> gchristensen: also, why do you use outlook?
<gchristensen> one of my clients is Enterprise
<eyJhb> Ohh...
<sphalerite> gchristensen: yes, I found that info afterwards…
<gchristensen> WSL not supporting systemd is really stuck in my craw today
<sphalerite> even WSL2?
<gchristensen> it doesn't seem to? distros still use init
<V> most mainstream distros use systemd these days AIUI?
<gchristensen> yeah
<gchristensen> but not on WSL!
<Mic92> but wsl2 supports systemd, no?
<gchristensen> apparently not nicely? there are things like ttps://github.com/arkane-systems/genie to make it work apparently
<Mic92> Do they goove up the kernel?
<gchristensen> goove? :)
<Mic92> *goof up
<gchristensen> maybe? not sure :(
<Mic92> Does not look like it genie creates its own namespace
<Mic92> does wsl2 not run systemd as pid1
<gchristensen> not sure, I didn't come prepared for anybody to actually look at the problem :x I was just griping
<Mic92> but systemd also supports running as pid2 I believe, They added this when rkt was still a thing
<gchristensen> hrm
<gchristensen> "The only missing element is systemd as the init system. Microsoft is using a custom init that sets up what is effectively a container for each installed WSL-2 distribution."
<Mic92> so what does echo $$ return in wsl?
<gchristensen> I don't even have access to it right now, even, this is just a problem I'm having to help a team work through
<gchristensen> I was really not prepared for anything beyond a "ah that sucks" :x :')
<Mic92> one could hack pid1 to do a re-exec to systemd :)
<Mic92> with ptrace
<gchristensen> haha sounds great :D
<Mic92> If I have to use this one day, I will implement this
<gchristensen> unfortunately this is for users to install in to their existing wsl2 and so taking it over like that is probably not an option for this particular case :P
<Mic92> How so? I thought the goal is to run systemd in the end?
<Mic92> or nixos?
<gchristensen> nah, the hope is it'd be trivial to support wsl to start a service: just treat it like any other systemd based distro and call it done
<gchristensen> but it isn't, it is the same bad-old-days of pre-systemd
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<gchristensen> Systemantics is calling us out https://twitter.com/SysQuotes/status/1310609537334992896
<lovesegfault> ashkitten: https://github.com/lovesegfault/malt
<lovesegfault> not at all shiny
<lovesegfault> the important part is in `discogs/`
<lovesegfault> which is just me trying to wrap around this RESTful API
<ashkitten> lovesegfault: you repeat serde::Serialize and serde::Deserialize many times, i'd add a use statement at the top
<lovesegfault> ashkitten: Yeah, I wanted to do that once I move all of these data types into a module
<lovesegfault> but I couldn't figure out what to name the module
<lovesegfault> so I procrastinated
<cole-h> Just name it module and then stick a `TODO: rename` above it :D
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<gchristensen> I bet I could use ocvpn, vpnns, and wireguard to have an always-on VPN connection separate from my laptop...
* pie_ looks at the two thirds of that he doesnt know
<pie_> whzat does "separate from my laptop" mean here
<gchristensen> when i close my laptop I lose the VPN connection and have a very annoying process to reconnect
<pie_> right
<gchristensen> if I instead ran the VPN (ocvpn) on a stable system and then plumbed wireguard to it, I could use wireguard locally to connect to this stable system and connect right in
<pie_> this vpnns thing might be neat
<pie_> i currently run separate containers as vpn gateways
<gchristensen> vpnns is great!
<pie_> (which is probably (?) orthogonal, jus sayin)
<drakonis> is 21.09 ready yet
<gchristensen> ^ this is how I launch my VPN (and RDP... which is needed.)
<drakonis> real question though, is it possible to forward traffic through a vpn tunnel?
<drakonis> its something i dearly need
<gchristensen> 21.09 is a bit far away
<drakonis> i see
<gchristensen> ~1y14d if I had to guess
<drakonis> woops
<drakonis> 20.09!
<drakonis> perhaps i should subtract a year off that count
<drakonis> two weeks then
<gchristensen> possible to forward traffic through a vpn tunnel? what do you mean?
<__monty__> Like sshuttle?
<samueldr> drakonis: there's going to be a meeting for that tomorrow
<samueldr> and also "you tell us" :)
<drakonis> i have a specific domain i want to route traffic through a tunnel when accessing it
<drakonis> as it can only function if i try to access that domain through the vpn
<gchristensen> check out the gist I linked? it does something similar, and disables nscd so dns resolution is forced inside the ns
<drakonis> hmm i see
<drakonis> i'll check it
<drakonis> suspected as much
<worldofpeace> drakonis: 20.09 is due, it will be released when there's no more blocking PRs or issues
<worldofpeace> "when it's ready"
<drakonis> hmm, so valve time?
<gchristensen> from worldofpeace's keyboard to your eyes
<worldofpeace> drakonis: no, not exactly valve time, like we meet regularly and delay in weekly increments
<drakonis> twas a jest
<gchristensen> worldofpeace++ for bringing order to this process last release, and continuing it this release
<{^_^}> worldofpeace's karma got increased to 193
<__monty__> How do you know valve hasn't been delaying the next half-life by weekly increments?
<drakonis> good question
<pie_> :D
<pie_> the half life of no half-life-three is 3 days
<worldofpeace> __monty__: then the difference is we will tell u about it :D
<cole-h> Hehe
<infinisil> Oh wow, ssh has `PreferredAuthentication = gssapi-with-mic` which lets you authenticate with your voice!
<drakonis> nice!
<gchristensen> O.O
<infinisil> /s
<cole-h> uh
<cole-h> lmao
<infinisil> I was excited for a moment until I actually looked that up: https://serverfault.com/questions/75362/what-the-heck-is-gssapi-with-mic
<gchristensen> gutsy to assume Linux audio works well enough for authentication
<worldofpeace> gchristensen: thanks ❤️ Me and Jon also talked about taking the rm docs out of the nixos manual
<gchristensen> oh really? cool
<worldofpeace> and doing a github wiki
<pie_> eeeh
<cole-h> gchristensen: btw, I think $$ is POSIX
<cole-h> A POSIX replacement for $BASHPID *
<pie_> wiki is harder to download (whats rm?)
<gchristensen> $BASHPID isn't the same as $$
<cole-h> Oh
<worldofpeace> release management pie_
<worldofpeace> there's no reason for it to be in the nixos manual. like, hey this is how u use nixos modules, and also if you want to be releasing nixos here's our internal process
<pie_> oh
<pie_> make a release manager manual? :P
<pie_> as an extra benefit it gets to be versioned? (do github wikis get versioned? i never used em)
<cole-h> gchristensen: `echo $(echo $$) $$` -> `16238 15259` for me -- is that not what you want?
<cole-h> (This was tested inside mrsh, a POSIX shell)
<__monty__> I think they do but I've never checked to see if I could actually roll anything back.
<worldofpeace> pie_: basically. but it needs to be very very mutable because it's quickly changing. it's most convenient and I figure as rm's we can just do what we want
<cole-h> They're versioned. Kinda like the Arch Wiki
<pie_> ye *shrug*
<pie_> beiung able to iterate quickly _is_ nice
<gchristensen> cole-h: still not the same thing :P
<cole-h> :'(
<infinisil> gchristensen: Whatcha using to serve those files?
<gchristensen> cole-h: $(...) is different from (...)
<infinisil> gchristensen: Oh the extension guessing is nice, I might steal that for mine
<cole-h> gchristensen: Could you maybe explain why $$ doesn't suffice? I keep misunderstanding :P
<gchristensen> cole-h: sure, I use `(somestuff here)&` and everything inside the (...) becomes a background process
<gchristensen> then immediately I SIGSTOP that background process, in the background process
<infinisil> I also now feel the need to make an auto-expiring paste, which just returns `https://paste.infinisil.com` as the url. The paste becomes invalid once I paste the next thing :P
<gchristensen> so that later on I can SIGCONT the background process
<gchristensen> infinisil: I used to have a URL shortener which started a 1, and incremented a number, and entries expired after 24h. it was really nice
<gchristensen> cole-h: does that make sense?
<infinisil> I guess generally you do want links to stay valid though, so maybe best to only use expiring ones when necessary
<cole-h> gchristensen: OK, I see. Lemme play around a bit.
<__monty__> Yeah, so many irc logs full of holes from expired urls :'(
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<cole-h> gchristensen: OK, I see. From my meager knowledge of POSIX and brief testing, doesn't seem possible.
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<cole-h> ("OK, I see." is my favorite phrase, as you can probably tell)
<gchristensen> aye, cool
<abathur> :]
<gchristensen> I wasn't sure if it was possible or not -- but cool to know this is a properly required bashism!
<gchristensen> this sigstop/sigcont bit feels especially dirty
<infinisil> Just set up a monthly donation to wikipedia. The amount of benefit I got out of wikipedia is so big, no regrets at all
<infinisil> If you want to as well: https://donate.wikimedia.org
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<infinisil> (they are a bit pushy with these donations, but I can't blame them, they probably have a tough time staying non-profit)
<__monty__> How transparent are they about finances?
<gchristensen> quite
<gchristensen> and the executive director gets paid well ($358,871) but not as well as the shady nonprofits
<infinisil> Nice
<__monty__> Wow, running wikipedia costs less than $100M per annum?
<__monty__> Like, that's not in any way a small figure.
<__monty__> But it's quite comfortably within the single-person-financeable spectrum.
<__monty__> Due to unfortunate social situations, ofc.
<__monty__> Thanks for this, I've wondered but never really looked.
<gchristensen> yeah, it really is a pretty good one
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<infinisil> It's kind of interesting, wikipedia pretty much has a "monopoly" on general knowledge
<infinisil> But it's not a bad thing
<infinisil> Maybe monopolies are only bad if they make money doing so?
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<infinisil> Probably can't characterize it with just that
<samueldr> monopolies are bad when they are anti-competitive
<samueldr> and it's way more subdued
<samueldr> since in practice here the government-mandated monopoly for electricity "is anti-competitive"
<samueldr> but it's not bad
<samueldr> (unless you look at it in a purely capitalist sense)
<joepie91> (2017)
<__monty__> Otoh, maybe a second wikipedia would reveal how wikipedia is super biased.
<joepie91> it's uh, worth a read
<samueldr> yeah, it's hard to gauge _how_ biased it is
<samueldr> it surely is, everything is
<gchristensen> joepie91: "By: Guy Macon" "Guy Macon has been a Wikipedian since 2005, has more than 30,000 edits to his name, and is the author of the Wikipedia essay WP:1AM. He runs a consulting business, rescuing engineering projects that have gone seriously wrong." okay I'm ready to read... an ad
<worldofpeace> it's like every day I find something new https://nixos.org/manual/nix/unstable/ 🤣 I knew they were markdown but I didn't know it would be pretty :D
<gchristensen> they are pretty :o
<samueldr> they don't play well with narrow viewports :(
<__monty__> How narrow? My browser's often identified as a "mobile" browser so my viewport must be pretty narrow already.
<worldofpeace> do u know how they're generated samueldr ?
<samueldr> a third of my display size; 752 innerWidth
<samueldr> worldofpeace: using the toolchain from rust's books
<samueldr> ah, I see what is going on
<samueldr> if the page is _opened_ narrow, the menu will default to be hidden
<samueldr> but uh... reflowing the text with a side menu is a bad idea for perfs
<__monty__> Ah, makes sense.
<__monty__> Yeah, was hidden at load for me.
<samueldr> so, less bad
<worldofpeace> samueldr: thanks, found it I think https://github.com/NixOS/nix/blob/master/doc/manual/local.mk#L59
<colemickens> calling the OS activation script a post-install hook doesn't seem fair to nix https://michael.stapelberg.ch/posts/2019-08-17-linux-package-managers-are-slow/. has there ever been an actual "why distri instead of nix" post?
<samueldr> (spicy take) no because no one would put an experimental system like distri in production, when there are well-proven technologies like Nix
<V> distri is explicitly a research operating system
<V> also the activation script is absolutely a post-install hook
<colemickens> I guess I'm not sure I understand why "images" seem to be stressed over archives. (And I do admit I think there are places Nix isn't as parallel as it could be.)
<V> it's just a bunch of post-install hooks concatenated into a single file
<__monty__> Is nix really among the faster package managers in those measurements?
<joepie91> colemickens: gotta say, I didn't expect Nix to perform as well as it does, comparatively
<colemickens> V: why? nothing about "installing" that package requires it to run. I add my system config to my package manager without running that script, it doesn't execute until runtime
<V> nix has terrible performance but that's not b/c of using files instead of archives
<colemickens> it is, by definition, not a post-build hook
<colemickens> or a post-install hook, it requires manual execution
<V> is there a difference between a post-install hook and one which is run later?
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<colemickens> Yes? Especially in the context of distri and that article?
<colemickens> The presumption is that post-install hooks prevent parallel installation of packages, which simply isn't true with Nix. Or I'm misunderstanding.
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<V> oh, that point doesn't apply to nix (although the activation script is still run in sequence)
<colemickens> I mean, if you just install packages into the store, no activation script is run, but ok
<colemickens> like, that activation script literally only applies to NixOS, not even a single "package".
<infinisil> V: The important difference the activation script has from just a post install script is that the amount of steps it does is very low, and each step is atomic
<V> I misremembered what the article's contents were and thought he was against them because they couldn't be done at runtime or something
<infinisil> While in current NixOS you can add whatever you want to the activation script, ideally that shouldn't be allowed
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<V> infinisil: sure, I get that
<V> I prefer NixOS in that regard to post install scripts from any other system I have used
<abathur> grumble
<infinisil> mumble
<abathur> zoom for misanthropes who don't enunciate well
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