gchristensen changed the topic of #nixos-chat to: NixOS but much less topical || https://logs.nix.samueldr.com/nixos-chat
<infinisil> My most used messages on freenode in descending order: "Yeah", "Hehe", "I see", "Nice", ":)", "Ah yeah", "Lol", "Hmm..", ...
<infinisil> Wrote a program for that :)
<cole-h> Where's the paste? ;)
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<samueldr> ,paste
<{^_^}> Use a website such as [ https://gist.github.com/ http://ix.io/ https://hastebin.com/ http://sprunge.us/ https://paste.ee/ ] or similar services to share anything that's longer than a couple lines.
<samueldr> it's there
<cole-h> Hehe
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<abathur> hmm
<abathur> does this stuff compose? :)
<abathur> > spongebobify ,paste
<{^_^}> error: syntax error, unexpected ',', expecting ')', at (string):325:14
<abathur> > spongebobify paste
<{^_^}> undefined variable 'paste' at (string):325:14
<infinisil> Usage: `nix-build`, then pipe the messages you want to analyze into result/bin/longest-non-unique
* cole-h makes a note to try this out later
<samueldr> abathur: it's nix... you know nix...
<samueldr> > spongebobify ",paste"
<{^_^}> ",PasTE"
<cole-h> lol
<abathur> uhuh
<abathur> > spongebobify "abathur: it's nix... you know nix..."
<{^_^}> "aBatHuR: It's NiX... yOu Know NIx..."
<cole-h> Haha
<aszlig> samueldr: reminds me about what this thingy a while back: https://twitter.com/horenmar_ctu/status/1217028265833115648
<samueldr> hecking trigraphs
<samueldr> for people not in the know https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Digraphs_and_trigraphs#C
<samueldr> ??=define FOO // equivalent to #define FOO
<aszlig> samueldr: IFF you compile with -trigraphs
<samueldr> oh
<samueldr> yeah, right
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<aszlig> but yeah, depends on the compiler
<abathur> ,random-pr
<{^_^}> https://github.com/NixOS/nixpkgs/pull/88786 (by NickHu, 20 weeks ago, open): clipit: enable appindicator support
<abathur> heh
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<abathur> ha
<gchristensen> I wish I'd learned Make better than I do
<abathur> https://github.com/uasi/git-anything - slightly cleaned up from google translation: It's kind of useful to turn every command into a subcommand of git. Just pass the bin path and you can do whatever you want with git: git echo hoge, git ruby fuga.rb, or git shutdown -h now.
<gchristensen> lol!
<abathur> but you appear to know expect
<gchristensen> me?
<gchristensen> yeah
<abathur> I'm not sure which dark art I'd choose...
<samueldr> I had to learn COBOL, not sure if it force filled that "dark art" niche
<samueldr> it was weird how to use the compiler for the class, dosbox was the better option
<samueldr> for the HOW OLD ARE YOU questions: that was back in 2008 or 2009
<energizer> anybody know what's the best tool for pulling structured tables out of PDFs?
<abathur> a dentist?
<abathur> have you tried anything already, or just generally fishing?
* abathur creates a branch with a single quote in the name
<gchristensen> lol
<energizer> i used Tabula a few years ago, it was alright but needed a lot of postprocessing
<energizer> whoa gchristensen that's interesting
<ajs124> abathur: I started a habit of putting slashes in branch names. That was fun recently, when I tried pushing to test/bla when test already existed on the remote.
<gchristensen> a fellow rural MA resident works on it
<abathur> ajs124: I've wondered about that; I like it when I see it but assume I'd break it and stick to underscores :]
<ajs124> 🤷‍♂️ it worked well until it didn't
<samueldr> abathur: try mixing and matching macOS, linux and é
<samueldr> in a branch name
<samueldr> not that *I* did it, I knew better
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<abathur> I don't always make all of my branch names valid shell expansions if not properly escaped...
<samueldr> git checkout -B '`echo hi`'
<abathur> hmmmmmmmmmmm
<abathur> can probably do some weird stuff to people's aliases and completions
<abathur> wonder if anyone evals any git output in their prompt script
<samueldr> *evals*... whew that's scary
<samueldr> I don't like that idea
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<abathur> so, there are people
<abathur> who do things like
<gchristensen> I bet there are people who do that :(
<abathur> in their defense
<abathur> I did go check to see if I do it
<abathur> and even if I don't, this fancypants bash events library I use does, so I can't swear I don't
<abathur> but I haven't broken my prompt, yet
<gchristensen> ack
<gchristensen> git rebase -x is so good
<samueldr> for what good use case?
<gchristensen> like running a formatter on every commit, or verifying tests pass on every commit, since a parent branch
<abathur> nice
<samueldr> I don't know how the formatter thing would work; would it cause "as few" conflicts as possible since it's done before a commit is done?
<gchristensen> nah it is actually extremely painful for that usecase :P
<samueldr> right, as I thought it would be :)
<gchristensen> I have a script for that though ...
<abathur> heh: eval "git $1`git branch --no-color 2> /dev/null | sed -e '/^[^*]/d' -e 's/* \(.*\)/\1/'`"
<abathur> luckily that's just basically part of an alias
<drakonis> i'm starting to feel like i should pave over this server and just run nixos in it
<drakonis> i'm hating ubuntu with all my soul
<samueldr> TIL about .git/info/exclude
<samueldr> basically a local variant of .gitignore
<drakonis> i hate the house of cards that other distros are
<drakonis> i spent 2 hours troubleshooting ubuntu's mysql package
<drakonis> i could've been productive
<elvishjerricco> Aw. NixOS can't boot from a degraded ZFS pool. Like if you've got raidz2 and you pluck a disk, it won't boot because the `poolReady` bash function in `tasks/filesystems/zfs.nix` only looks for the ONLINE state and doesn't consider DEGRADED.
<drakonis> i think i'm going to ask my teacher whether i can raze ubuntu and set up nixos because holy shit this is improductive
<samueldr> elvishjerricco: sounds like you know how to make the fix at least :)
<drakonis> thank goodness for lustrate being a thing
<drakonis> as i can only reach it while sshed
<elvishjerricco> samueldr: It does raise the question of if the user should be prompted about continuing. Some people don't like running a degraded pool.
<samueldr> I wouldn't be able to answer that question
<gchristensen> no
<gchristensen> I should be able to recover my still healthy enough machine remotely without going in to emergency
<samueldr> sounds cromulent
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<drakonis> o shit
<drakonis> its tomorrow
<drakonis> nixcon that is
<drakonis> this talk
<drakonis> i remember it coming up on 2018's roadmap talk
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<samueldr> >> I just informed Greg KH privately about it. He was not made aware of these issues prior to now. What's up with Intel and Google's security disclosure process ?
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<drakonis> https://github.com/NixOS/nix/tree/configs i guess it begins here
<drakonis> lookin' good tho
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<eyJhb> gchristensen: I should really use Spotifyd instead of the Spotify client
<eyJhb> You tried so hard little unstable - https://i.imgur.com/l0dgGKJ.png
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<__monty__> Any reason why du (tree --du) would be faster on an HDD compared to an SSD?
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<averell> drive cache maybe, better cable (full sata speed) or just large continuous access
<eyJhb> Quite sure this is some of the most ugly shell ever made - https://gitlab.com/eyJhb/notebooks/-/blob/master/utils/makeweb.sh but it does work
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<ldlework> how do i install autoreconf?
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<tilpner> ldlework: autoconf
<ldlework> hmm yeah i tried that. `npm i @hqjs/hq` no workie on nixos
<ldlework> something something mozjpeg
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<drakonis> i'm excited about those nixcon talks
<drakonis> plus i'm going to deploy nixos on a server
<drakonis> another one, that is.
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<drakonis> config recommendation system talk
<drakonis> experimental modules system talk
<drakonis> ho ho ho
<drakonis> then mainstream nix talk
<drakonis> now this one's going to be something
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<sphalerite> Why do my phones never survive me moving? Moved into a new flat today, promptly dropped my phone on the kerb.
<sphalerite> Relatedly: can anyone recommend a smartphone? Especially interested in vendors that are good in terms of their kernelness, hence ping samueldr ;)
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<sphalerite> ldlework: probably use nix-shell instead, and also ask in #nixos :p
<sphalerite> eyJhb: you might appreciate my hack for remote-controlling my laptop with my phone https://github.com/lheckemann/presremote
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<leonardp> POWER9 is slowly creeping towards affordable desktop systems
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<drakonis> nice
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<sphalerite> >90W
<sphalerite> >power efficient
<sphalerite> does that mean it's really powerful?
<sphalerite> (90W TDP on the CPU)
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<cransom> seems on par with a recent higher end desktop processor
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<gchristensen> kinda cool
<drakonis> nix is leaking onto things
<gchristensen> w00t
<drakonis> he he he
<drakonis> i cant wait for nixcon tho
<drakonis> big changes
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<sphalerite> https://github.com/gethiox/yeelight-go this might be the best project logo I've seen yet
<drakonis> lmaoooo
<gchristensen> lol
<drakonis> YEE
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<sphalerite> on that topic, does anyone have good tricks for finding disassembly videos/tutorials? I tried searching for ylxd01yl disassembly on ddg and youtube, but haven't found anything for the exact model…
<gchristensen> I always start with ifixit's website, and then I'll go to the FCC database which usually has disassembly pictures, and sometimes there are clues
<sphalerite> gchristensen: where do I find the fcc database? :D
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<sphalerite> hm actually maybe this was never tested by the FCC :/
<sphalerite> it doesn't have an FCC logo on it in any case
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<samueldr> sphalerite: better option for availability of everything: google
<samueldr> I had good experiences with ASUS, but YMMV
<samueldr> oneplus are apparently doing like Xiaomi now, and forcing a wait time before an unlock for newer devices [citation needed]
<samueldr> lenovorola I don't know about their kernel release, though it appeared that Lenovo (not motorola) branded devices might sometimes not have their kernel released promptly
<samueldr> (or at all?)
<samueldr> xiaomi still releases quickly enough, but the whole thing of linking with an account and waiting 2 weeks is not good
<drakonis> the wait time is like rolling a dice, sometimes it can take longer than two weeks
<samueldr> that's when you do something they deem suspcious
<samueldr> e.g. trying to go around the limits :)
<samueldr> though with my limited 2-devices experience it never jumped past
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<samueldr> samsung to me is still a big unknown
<samueldr> I would hazard a guess that kernels are made available in a timely manner
<samueldr> though bootloader unlock is not a given
<samueldr> (here some devices can't)
<samueldr> LG similar story, but worse, AFAIK all their north-american devices can't be unlocked [booooooooooooooo]
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<samueldr> trying to think about other OEMs
<samueldr> sony are good open source citizens
<samueldr> but pricey (meh) and uh, sometimes hard to get
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<samueldr> oh, fairphone are probably a fine choice for Europeans
<samueldr> though if you intend to frequently rely on North American bands, YMMV
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<sphalerite> my dad had a terrible experience with a sony phone, so I think I'll pass on that one
<samueldr> everyone can find someone that has had a terrible experience with everything ;)
<samueldr> but I do concur, that it leaves a bad taste
<samueldr> though anyway their phones are quite expensive
<sphalerite> I think fairphone might be the right thing for me, at least if I'm buying new. I bought my last two phones used, and feel a lot better about the environmental impact doing that :D
<samueldr> the big problem with buying a used phone, or even a last-gen phone, is that you basically buy into not having security updates sooner :|
<samueldr> can we please apply the wintel paradigm to phones?
<sphalerite> well I'm not buying one willy-nilly, I won't go for anything that isn't currently supported by lineageos
<sphalerite> and the whole kernel thing is about sustainability for me as well (as in I can sustain use thanks to downstreams like lineageos and postmarketos)
<samueldr> you do get more security updates, but even then it's bound to stop with LineageOS :(
<samueldr> yeah
<sphalerite> I mean, also mobile-nixos, but mostly sustainability :D
<samueldr> yeah, in my mind if you talk about any alternative software possibility Mobile NixOS is a possibility
<sphalerite> :D
<samueldr> proven by asus-x018d, no custom rom available, even the only TWRP available is built using the binary kernel from the OEM
<sphalerite> oooooh
<samueldr> but Mobile NixOS with a kernel built from the OEM sources exists
<sphalerite> yeah maybe I'll just go for the fairphone…
<sphalerite> how much of the hardware works? ;)
<samueldr> x018d?
<sphalerite> yeah
<samueldr> as much as expected for the current state of things
<samueldr> mediatek-based
<samueldr> wifi not explored, modem not explored
<samueldr> but everything else seems to work just fine
<sphalerite> ah ok
<samueldr> basically same state as the popular qualcomm devices
<samueldr> if the fairphone was available here, I surely would have gotten them
<samueldr> (available also mean useful connectivity-wise)
<sphalerite> unrelated: how might I be able to recover data from a failed (kernel can see it but I get messages like "ata4: softreset failed (device not ready)") SSD?
<sphalerite> because _of course_ the one thing I have no backups of is the boot SSD of my backup server…
<samueldr> ironic
<samueldr> I would hazard a guess that nothing can be done
<pie_> samueldr: kinda orthogonal but you miught try asking people in #openfgpa this kinda stuff
<samueldr> pie_: about SSDs? that's sphalerite
<pie_> no about teardowns and idk
<sphalerite> that was also me x)
<pie_> oh
<sphalerite> ah well, guess I'll have to redo my home assistant setup
<sphalerite> not the end of the world I guess, I wanted to move to docker for it anyway
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<drakonis> hrrrm i need to expand my linode vps
<drakonis> as i need more memory
<colemickens> Is everyone just lurking in IRC during NixCon?
<eyJhb> Wait, is there Nixcon?
* colemickens wishes he was in Munich
<colemickens> eyJhb: :) I'm glad I said something, it starts tomorrow! It really crept up on me.
<colemickens> eyJhb: https://2020.nixcon.org/
<colemickens> The talks look.... really freaking great. I'm super pumped.
<eyJhb> But I have plans this weekend :(
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<colemickens> "Nix at Chatroulette v2" <- whaaat?
<pie_> whaaaat
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<eyJhb> I am so sorry
<eyJhb> But I see Chatroulette is that penis website
<colemickens> Nix x IPFS talk, too. :D Ready for a geek out weekend.
<pie_> ooh michael is doing a talk
<eyJhb> `Bridging the stepping stones: using pieces of NixOS without full commitment` that is so fucking Michael.. :p
<eyJhb> His frakenstein OS
<colemickens> "nix modules" and "nix-processmgmt" also seem very exciting
<pie_> ive wanted to generate service defs in isolation before
<eyJhb> `Bringing NixOS to my school`
<eyJhb> Interesting
<pie_> idk how much has changed but sander has a blog post for processmgmt
<drakonis> those are some good talks
<drakonis> nix modules are very exciting, if you recall eelco's talk from 2018
<drakonis> eyJhb: frankennix :V
<eyJhb> drakonis: Pretty much :p
<pie_> the best systems are ones where you can do anything with the system
<samueldr> zombo com?
<pie_> which also meanstearing it into little pieces
<pie_> samueldr: lol
<drakonis> which bot command lets me look up binaries in the cache?
<pie_> zombonix
<drakonis> i need to find out if roadrunner is on nixpkgs
<samueldr> ,locate bin hello
<{^_^}> Found in packages: hello, polarssl, perkeep.bin, gitlab-runner.bin, haskellPackages.hello
<drakonis> ,locate bin rr
<{^_^}> Found in packages: rr
<drakonis> ughhh
<eyJhb> rr?
<drakonis> roadrunner
<samueldr> rr goes brrr
<drakonis> this isnt the right one
<eyJhb> Eelco seems like the chill guys you find at uni! (Which makes sense)
<drakonis> its something to replay code
<drakonis> roadrunner is a php web server in go
<pie_> drakonis: rr is record and replay, is roardunner also a code replay tjhing
<drakonis> no
<pie_> ok
<pie_> i see now
<drakonis> i need to host a service that needs roadrunner
<drakonis> among other things
<drakonis> real talk tho, that nix modules talk looks like the bees knees
<samueldr> looks like you'll need to package something :)
<drakonis> of course.
<drakonis> i'm planning to do that
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<drakonis> spiral has a bunch of optional dependencies
<drakonis> before i proceed to chump myself
<drakonis> i'm almost certain i can do it with just the php web server
<drakonis> i think i'm pointing to the wrong directory
<drakonis> i'll still package it because it seems useful to have
<drakonis> probably not
<eyJhb> drakonis: Are you taking GNU Health while you are at it?
<drakonis> hmm, sure why not
<eyJhb> drakonis: I think you will end up using too much time on that - https://www.gnuhealth.org/#/
<drakonis> roadrunner uses the same binary namespace as rr
<drakonis> sadly
<eyJhb> But it would be cool!
<drakonis> its in python no?
<eyJhb> Yeah it is
<drakonis> i'll check it later
<drakonis> hmm, that module talk... i cant wait to not have to finagle with overriding for enabling package features
<eyJhb> `calonloupanseajzkrfls@kekasihhatikusiapayangmau.com` legit Apple Email
<gchristensen> abathur: is there a way to add this syntax to bash: ((foo))<>((bar)) where foo and bar are two programs, and the pipes are connected as: foo | bar, and bar | foo ?
<drakonis> the great dictionary nightmare is over
<cole-h> That's super weird and now I want it
<gchristensen> it is possible to do, and I've done it, but if there is a terrible way I could trick bash in to giving me that syntax for it, I'd prefer it :P
<eyJhb> gchristensen ! Do you know of any libraries that uses NixOS? As in, the places with the books
<gchristensen> sure
<gchristensen> why?
<eyJhb> Wondering if there is any success in providing NixOS to the users, like, the computers that can freely be used to browse the WWW, write documents, etc. at the library
<eyJhb> Not the backend systems as such, because then we have srhb :D
<gchristensen> ah :)
<gchristensen> not sure
<eyJhb> Damn... Would be cool, however... Maybe not that old people friendly, if they want to teach them how to use a Linux system at home
<lovesegfault> nice, nixos-unstable advanced 🎉
<eyJhb> Once more?
<eyJhb> Aww, you had my hopes up for another one lovesegfault
<lovesegfault> eyJhb: one a week is enough to celebrate!
<eyJhb> unstable is so ofte killed atm. :(
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<samueldr> gchristensen: back and forth?
<gchristensen> yeah, the back and forth operator
<gchristensen> :)
<samueldr> forever?
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<gchristensen> forever, or until one of the writes gets a SIGPIPE I guess :P
<samueldr> ,escape'' ''
<{^_^}> Escape this in '' strings with: ''' '''
<{^_^}> Escape this in " strings with: '' ''
<samueldr> I uh... that seemds like a weird answer
<samueldr> but it's right, but it seems to be answering to ,escape(.*)
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<drakonis> nice!
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<abathur> gchristensen: not sure if there's anything terse, but I haven't really tried/considered that one before; what's the other way you've done it?
<gchristensen> have to create a 3rd pippe and <&3 ... >&3
<abathur> hmm
<abathur> there's a particular bit of arcana here that I rarely see used, I wonder a bit...; I don't feel like I have a great handle on what all it can do yet, though I do remember trying to do some weird stuff with it and did manage to establish that there are some things that seem like valid syntax that it won't do
<abathur> I'll go look for the doc, but basically function definitions can have redirections on the closing }
<abathur> so like whee(){ echo hehe; } >2
<abathur> and then bare invocations of whee will respect it
<gchristensen> whoa....
<gchristensen> :o
<abathur> here's a blog post with someone playing with it that I found when I first had my mind blown by it https://www.linuxjournal.com/content/more-bash-redirections
<pie_> 0_0
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<abathur> I'm thinking maybe the bit I tried that it couldn't do directly is directly piping the tail
<abathur> I used this in a dirty little script I've been picking at while thinking about your ~traced execution request
<gchristensen> oh wow, that is awesome :D
<abathur> well, the most-useful at least
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<gchristensen> whoa I didn't know you could make named pipes.....
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<gchristensen> nice
<abathur> this was in the bottom answer https://github.com/flonatel/pipexec
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<infinisil> samueldr: Yeah I should probably fix that
<infinisil> Or make it a bit more intuitive
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<energizer> abathur: i would love a keyboard-driven gui based on that
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<abathur> on which?
<abathur> pipexec?
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<pie_> domething that grinds my gears: why dont any major operating systems have a rhobust low-memory environment you can access when you hang your system
<pie_> by resource exhaustion
<pie_> any if they do why isnt it available by default
<gchristensen> all major operating systems pretend to be a turing machine
<gchristensen> which is to say, they all pretend memory is infinite
<gchristensen> Rust, a language famous for making you deal with problems doesn't even acknowledge the idea that a memory allocation can fail
<pie_> i cant be the only person thats wanted this in the past 80 years
<gchristensen> almost certainly no significant number of C/C++programs can do anything reasonable but fail if it fails to allocate more memory
<pie_> im saying the OS could acknowledge this even is apps dont
<pie_> the problem is it doesnt fail
<pie_> the problem is the machine slows to a crawl
<pie_> so probably swapping but idk
<gchristensen> yeabh
<gchristensen> that is why I don't have swap anymore
<gchristensen> and why facebook made oomd (now systemd-oomd I think?)
<pie_> i still brefer that to everything crashing suddenly for some reason
<gchristensen> slowness?
<pie_> i think os should reserve a small amount of ram for some sort of supervisor that remains responsive and resident
<gchristensen> AH
<gchristensen> ah*
<pie_> yes the slowness
<pie_> and the supervisor would be a method to selectively unslow :p
<samueldr> already, having all processes sharing from the same bowl, without some kind of priority or preference is not great
<gchristensen> I much prefer the rapid death, personally
<pie_> well i guess vms or containers or whatever are the solution to this
<gchristensen> away from CEO computing and onwards to robust-first computing!
<samueldr> your firefox process can decide it takes it all, so now there's none left for your WM
<samueldr> or the system processes
<pie_> gchristensen: id probably like that more if i didnt work with tons of state and most things being garbage at orthogonal persistence
<gchristensen> yea
<pie_> if things were good at restoring themselves, yeah sure have fun with process mass murder
<pie_> i still need to look at criu
<samueldr> since I started limiting the firefox process, I haven't had any problem
<pie_> +containers
<samueldr> though tbf I also changed my usage pattern around the same time :/
<pie_> idk even with firefox limited to 8g i stll have no trouble fillign up most of my 16gb of ram
<pie_> and i get a slow ff as a bonus but at least the rest of the sys kinda works
<samueldr> yeah, most of the "real work" happens on another computer
<samueldr> (or happened)
<pie_> samueldr: im kinda doing that too right now but i have to give my mom her laptop back now xp
<pie_> also whaat triggered this discussion is i got windows to hang
<pie_> gchristensen: hm guess ill watch that later
<gchristensen> it is a neat one
<pie_> something is garbage with either win10 or the filesystem or firefox
<pie_> or all 3
<pie_> every time i hard reset it loses the entire session
<abathur> maybe a little too OT, but does anyone use a ram-backed TMPDIR for Nix builds? Curious about performance, and how much RAM you have to throw at it
<gchristensen> I don't have good answers other than "great" and the fact that I used "all of it"
<abathur> hmm
<andi-> abathur: if you have >=16GB of RAM it should be okay most of the time unless your hobby is compiling chromium, firefox, ….
<abathur> <3 andi- good reference points. I have 16GB on the laptop I'm curious about. It looks like I'll be able to create a tmpfs using up to 8GB, but I can't test it out on real builds yet
<{^_^}> andi-'s karma got increased to 37
<hexa-> gchristensen: systemd-oomd: @keszybz keszybz merged commit 69c0807 into systemd:master 11 hours ago
<hexa-> see you in 247
* andi- backports furiously
<hexa-> go nuts :D
<{^_^}> systemd/systemd#15206 (by anitazha, 29 weeks ago, merged): systemd-oomd
<andi-> actually, I do not have a single x86 device with <32GB of RAM anymore once I've returned this XPS13... no need then
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