<{^_^}>
acristescu/OnlineGo#70 (by popz73, 3 weeks ago, open): #15 support for player Stats
<bqv>
Should be basic, but id rather not spend an hour building an impure apk building environment
<name54>
Yeah, really! Lol... it's called opportunity cost :b
<name54>
bqv: if I were you I'd try to figure out how much cash you're saving by not wasting the hour and then offer maybe idk... 1/2 that to eyJhb (y) Then you both win
<sphalerite>
name54: best of all, spend an hour figuring that out :D
<name54>
I'd just ball park it (satisfice); no need to spend an hour... I think they'll be able to strike a good deal
<name54>
I'll start the bidding if you want... $0.01 for an hour of eyJhb's time. I'm cheap, I know =*
<eyJhb>
bqv: messing with you :P
<eyJhb>
But my amount of time is as usual, limited
<eyJhb>
Let me check it out. Also, hourly rate is
<eyJhb>
> DKK 900
<{^_^}>
"3118509.000000 VND"
<eyJhb>
\s
<eyJhb>
What, I cannot fetch all the dependencies bqv
<eyJhb>
First time I have seen it blocking something I need
<name54>
What!?!?! Ugh, that's crazy... maybe try using your VPN or tor-proxy?
<eyJhb>
bqv: not sure that is as easy to get to work as the others
<eyJhb>
Sadly :/
<eyJhb>
name54: Just disabled those lists on my router for now :p
<FireFly>
DKK/SEK exchange rate keeps messing with me when I'm over in Cph, I keep underestimating prices >.<
<eyJhb>
> SEK 10
<name54>
eyJhb: tell bqv that's why it costs money, lol
<{^_^}>
"10 SEK (weakest of the Norse Brothers) = 7.100000 DKK"
<eyJhb>
FireFly: we are the strongest ones!
<eyJhb>
:p
<FireFly>
hehe
<name54>
what about USD to DKK? I'm the only one with a bid in!
<FireFly>
at least the cost after conversion etc isn't quite as bad as Norway
<FireFly>
for a lunch or dinner or something
<eyJhb>
name54: it is actually a common usecase, that have gotton presented before. But didn't have a project to test it on. So I guess Valodim might be happy now
<eyJhb>
G2g for now, the GF is scratching on the door. She has awoken! will look at it later bqv :) No worries!
<name54>
Apples are common but they still cost $1.49/lb here in the United States X-P Charge bqv money!
<name54>
bqv: I'd think about building the apk yourself, you're not going to be able to pay eyJhb enough to leave his girlfriend.
<eyJhb>
name54: one USD is 6.3 DKK. Generally weaker than those
<eyJhb>
Also, 1 EUR is 7.5 DKK
<eyJhb>
Have to go to the dentist now anyways, so I am paying to get away I guess :p
<name54>
later eyJhb! have fun, hope the dental visit goes well 8)
<name54>
IDK, if big macs are inexpensive near your then there might be a lot of work going in that direction. Lol
<eyJhb>
name54: thanks ! ;)
<eyJhb>
Caused by: com.android.builder.sdk.LicenceNotAcceptedException: Failed to install the following Android SDK packages as some licences have not been accepted.
<eyJhb>
patcher;v4 SDK Patch Applier v4
<eyJhb>
ndk;21.0.6113669 NDK (Side by side) 21.0.6113669
<name54>
Valodim: it looks like you're in miami FL, USA... you're never working again. Enjoy retirement!
<Valodim>
oh :)
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<sphalerite>
name54: I misinterpreted "big mac" as "powerful apple computer" in your last message >_<
<name54>
ahahahah
<__monty__>
Do cell towers collate text messages? I just got a text with two timestamps.
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<name54>
I like being utterly pedantic so I'm going to say no, cell towers only physically support antennas and other hardware. Any kind of 'collation' will happen at sms gateways, servers, and on handsets themselves depending on circumstances such as SMS vs MMS etc.
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<__monty__>
Aren't these installed at cell towers?
<name54>
Uh, sometimes I guess. Not handsets themselves though; they're carried in users pockets generally. But you asked specifically about cell towers which are generally make of steel scaffolding and only meant to have things attached to them. So I thought I'd give the safest correct answer I could think of... *no*, cell towers just stand there.
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<Valodim>
"boy, you must be fun at parties"
<name54>
lol
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<name54>
Valoodim: I don't appreciate that comment. What if poor __monty__ is building some kind of life and death medical AI software that has no room for error. I wouldn't want to offer some really bad information, like... "yeah, the cell tower does everything" X-P
<sphalerite>
__monty__: a single message displayed to a user can consist of multiple actual SMS, and I think in that case it's chunked by the device sending it.
<sphalerite>
name54: I hope nobody actually asks critical questions like that in #nixos-chat D:
<name54>
saphelerite: I hope not either but you never know. I figure it's better to be safe than sorry. After all, questions come up all the time and unexpected places.
<name54>
I must be in an especially cheeky mood... please accept my apologies in advance if they're warranted.
<__monty__>
I don't mind pedantry when it's useful. This was just a case of figure of speech though. Metonymy, and Pars Pro Toto in particular.
<__monty__>
sphalerite: I'm not talking about a long text that's cut up and reassembled. This was ![date]: Some text. [date+10min]: more text clearly sent in a second message."
<name54>
Yeah, I'm sorry... I was being extremely pedantic. But it could be of some use honestly. There are many factors involved and your question was just too broadly worded so the actual answer I have is honestly 100% correct. Your "text message" (which is a broad term) sounds like its a multipart message, sort of like email. It could have been split up
<name54>
at "the cell tower" (specifically the SMS gateway), or on your phone itself (idk if you have an android, ios, old nokia flip phone) or inside some "app" that the phone is running or that "apps" back-end server. So, even though you asked a seemingly simple question, the answer isn't that straightforward.
<eyJhb>
Sometimes after a prolonged time with my input switched to e.g. HDMI instead of DP (I use HDMI for another laptop), when I switch to DP, my laptop will not show anything on the screen
<eyJhb>
It just says no signal, even if from my laptops POV, it was never switched off etc.
<name54>
eyJhb: I like to be pedantic so I'm going to answer... sometimes things don't work the way you expect.
<eyJhb>
I can get it to work, but not i QHD
<eyJhb>
To restart, or not to restart...
<name54>
before you restart have you tried forcing it into the proper mode?
<eyJhb>
Yup, it does not work
<eyJhb>
It is great fun!
<name54>
does it give an error in the log files? how do you try forcing it?
<name54>
what driver are you using?
<eyJhb>
name54: just restarted! :p - I should be using the intel driver, but currently I just use the default? Mode something maybe
<eyJhb>
The fun thing with the intel driver is, that it screws up my dock
<JJJollyjim>
modesetting
<JJJollyjim>
which one to use is contentious, i was reading about this earlier
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<eyJhb>
So when it is dockek, it will freeze at stage1, before prompt with "loading intel..." until I take it out of the dock, and set it back in
<JJJollyjim>
most distros have made modesetting the default
<JJJollyjim>
intel is the only way i can get rid of screen tearing on my laptop though :(
<eyJhb>
But I would guess intel would be the right thing to use in general
<eyJhb>
Seeing as I only have the integrated graphics
<name54>
yeah, idk... i usually try xrandr or restarting my display manager. i think the intel drivers are probably pretty high quality
<__monty__>
I'm talking about plain old SMS. I said "text" because I figured it can't be sensible to ask whether two SMS messages can be sent in *one* SMS message.
<JJJollyjim>
it's a tradeoff between two different sets of bugs :P
<name54>
__monty__: plain old sms is very dumb, it probably got split up by the gateway
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<eyJhb>
JJJollyjim: As usual!...
<__monty__>
I doubt the person on the other end manually added timestamps after 10 min to indicate separation of the messages.
<__monty__>
This is not a case of *splitting*.
<eyJhb>
I have soo many things I should de
<eyJhb>
do**
<__monty__>
Two separate messages arrived as a single SMS.
<__monty__>
With timestamps in the body.
<eyJhb>
But, the time. Where is it. And those things are generally no fun. Also sometimes picom fails to start.. So I have a little square of 5x5 cm, on only 1 of 3 monitors
<eyJhb>
Where I need to restart picom for it to work again
<name54>
eyJhb: graphical issues like vid modes needing to be restarted are worked around really well by using terminal apps inside a screen or tmux ;-)
<__monty__>
It *could* be the android messaging app collates texts you send if you didn't have a network connection at the time or something but I don't know. This is the first time I've received such a text. I'm still using a feature phone so there's no apps on my end collating messages.
<name54>
__monty__: i think you're thinking it through rather well... it could also be the sending phone that decided to split it ahead of time. I've seen some apps have options which say "use sms or mms" in which case a long message would get possibly split into many small sms. and... if your recipient is a feature phone there would be almost no chance it
<name54>
was smart enough itself to reassble anything.
<__monty__>
There's nothing to reassemble though. This is two messages that arrived as if they were a single SMS just with timestamps in the text body.
<sphalerite>
eyJhb: wayland! :p
<eyJhb>
sphalerite: DisplayLink !
<eyJhb>
:(
<sphalerite>
ooh you're still using that
<__monty__>
I was thinking maybe the routers(? whatever sort of hardware actually handles SMS delivery) are smart enough to just bunch up multiple texts for the same recipient if the queues are close to capacity or something.
<eyJhb>
Got back to it after a while sphalerite :(
<eyJhb>
Need to use it to get 2xQHD and another monitor
<__monty__>
Though I guess it could be the standard android or samsung messaging app being smart enough to save money by fully utilizing the capacity of a single text if multiple messages need sending. I'm fairly certain this person isn't using any fancy messaging apps.
<name54>
__monty__: It does sound a little crazy. Usually a long message gets split up, I've never really seen a much of short messages get stiched together... unless it was by some proprietary app.
<__monty__>
Hence my puzzlement. I figured this channel had the highest chance of containing knowledgeable people.
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<name54>
IDK __monty__ maybe you're onto something with your "bunch up to save money" theory.
<manveru>
maybe it's just Steins Gate :)
<name54>
In which case it'd actually really be just one message as far as sms is concerned and someone it trying to use sms as as the transport layer of a higher level app.
<name54>
I'm still fascinated by this displaylink issue. Why on earth would someone do such a thing to themselves... isn't vnc good enough these days for most work? I can't understand what the obsession is with "retina" and mega pixel density displays.
<__monty__>
Do you have a big display you're sitting quite close to with young eyes?
<name54>
No, I have a crappy display that I'm sitting away from with old eyes. lol
<__monty__>
Well there you go.
<name54>
Touché
<name54>
and big fonts, big giant fonts... fantasque-sans-mono generally :')
<name54>
vga is terribley old. actually part of the reason I'm using DVI mostly is because my "main" machine is raspberry pi, but I just use it as a terminal to connect to servers. I like that I can just velco it to the back of a monitor and use a bt kbd. I like the sexy hardware eyJhb, but it's way overkill these days for the work i do.
<eyJhb>
Ehh, would never work on a RPi. I compile too many things, also..
<eyJhb>
Videos
<__monty__>
What about videos? RPi's have hardware video decoding for common encodings, no?
<eyJhb>
Doesn't run that well, not when I tried last time
<name54>
omg, the model 3b+ is pretty darn fast. and the 4 is faster but I wanted to keep things compatible and save the electricity since it's powered of the built in usb of the display
<__monty__>
eyJhb: Are you sure the network wasn't a bottleneck?
<name54>
and, again... it's just a "dumb" terminal into the servers so all it has to do is render
<eyJhb>
I just have my small x230 :p
<eyJhb>
__monty__: it was locally and the file was less than 500 MB
<eyJhb>
name54: for a dump terminal with only text etc. it would be fine
<eyJhb>
And you can always see star wars
<__monty__>
HEVC maybe?
<__monty__>
Not sure the RPi has hardware support for that.
<name54>
and __monty__ has a point too... the newer PIs have built in 80211ac dual band
<name54>
and they're only like $30... 6 big macs, lol
<name54>
eyJhb: yeah, it's a great dumb terminal
<eyJhb>
name54: wrong unit of meassure
<eyJhb>
You should use cheeseburgers
<name54>
they're dirt cheap, lol
<eyJhb>
A lot more expensive than the earlier versions
<eyJhb>
Valodim: Holy hell the NDK is outdated
<Valodim>
the one in nixpkgs?
<eyJhb>
Yeah, the patch for it
<eyJhb>
And it fucking contiues to try and patch it, even when I have said, no, bad Nix
<name54>
eyJhb: thinkpads are nice too... i have my x60 lying around somewhere. The other thing is I like a portrait display and it's touch to find a laptop with one of those.
<name54>
*tough*
<__monty__>
Landscape displays are just two or more portrait displays joined seamlessly.
<name54>
I know, so I'd always just split my emacs into 2 and keep one open with nothing in it... then thought I like looking at code the way you look at a page of a book. if i were an accountant in a spreadsheet I'd probably love landscape or just use pivot a lot.
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<eyJhb>
I have deleted the shitty patch file, and it still tries to apply it? The hell
<name54>
The only slight drawback is that some web-sites really weren't built with portrait in mind... in end up zooming way way out. But I pretty quickly just leave those sites... they're figure out that "responsive" means it should look good in portrait too!
<eyJhb>
... Fuck me
<name54>
is this the apk build for bqv still?
<name54>
I thought you were going to the dentist anyway!??!
<__monty__>
I like having some documentation alongside my editor or an irc window : )
<eyJhb>
name54: somewhat, and I was! But my appointment was apparantly not today. So yay me
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<name54>
__monty__: yeah, i just end up splitting my emacs window vertically instead of horizontally
<infinisil>
Oh no I also need to go to the dentist :(
<eyJhb>
infinisil: checkup or problems?
<infinisil>
Both
<name54>
__monty__: but if i want to imerse myself in a single source file it's way better in portrait (imho)... more lines of code
<eyJhb>
Ahh, not nice :(
<infinisil>
Nothing urgent though, so I've been delaying it as best as I can lol
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<name54>
I had to have a cracked molar pulled out last year... not fun!
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<eyJhb>
I had a Wisdom tooth removed and couldn't open my mouth more than .2-.5 cm for a year
<eyJhb>
Fuck, that
<infinisil>
Damn
<eyJhb>
ALso, three years later and I still have trouble at time
<talyz>
eyJhb: that sucks :(
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<__monty__>
Maybe find a better dentist?
<eyJhb>
Not really their fault
<__monty__>
I had two wisdom teeth pulled and was back to having solids the same day.
<eyJhb>
But still hate them for not informing about the risk
<eyJhb>
Because it is a "common" thing. But usually only lasts for 2 weeks
<eyJhb>
Most are like that __monty__ :/
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<eyJhb>
bqv: not sure gradle2nix will work on this, sadly :(
<eyJhb>
How it fetches the dependencies is still magic. Considering just parsing the logs
<name54>
Some dentists are definitely egomaniacal jerks though, I won't deny that. The one who pulled my cracked tooth wanted to do an "experimental" root canal after I told him that I already went to an endodontist who looked at me and said there was no way to save the tooth because it was cracked all the way lenghtwise and it needed to be pulled out.
<name54>
After a bit of debate I told him no thanks, just pull the tooth out. And sure enough as he's drilling away he says "oh, your endodontist was right, this tooth just fell apart in my hands".
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<name54>
Well, duh! She looked at it with a microscope and her job is to do root canals all day every day. You a general dentist and don't even have a microscope in your office... I think he just wanted the extra money. He was going to charge me $3k to try and save the tooth. And it would have fallen apart in his hands and then made me come back and pay
<name54>
again to have it just pulled out as suggested by the specialist.
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<eyJhb>
> USD 3000
<{^_^}>
"3000 USD = 20000.000000 DKK"
<eyJhb>
Perfect.
<name54>
That's a lof of hamburgers just to screw something up! Lol
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<eyJhb>
200 of them
<eyJhb>
Wait
<eyJhb>
2000*
<eyJhb>
But, that is 3000 in the US?
<eyJhb>
We are getting screwed
<__monty__>
Microscope? They just take x-rays here, I'm sure a crack would be visible on those.
<__monty__>
Microscope in a person's mouth sounds like an impossible way to work. Are you sure it wasn't just a stereoscope?
<name54>
It really opened my eyes that doctors and dentists aren'e necessarily that smart. Esp because I told him ahead of time the endodontist looked at it and he literally said "well, I didn't see it myself so I can't trust her diagnosis". She told me, I told you... he was basically saying he didn't trust me.
<name54>
Yes, it was a microscope... my crack was from the front of the tooth to the back and those types ususally don't show on an xray.
<__monty__>
Are you sure? They can see awfully subtle things on those images.
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<__monty__>
Still doubt it was a microscope though. The depth of field is so small I can't imagine working with one on a moving subject.
<eyJhb>
__monty__ guessing name54 had to sit still :p
<name54>
It was definitely a microscope. They also show up on CT scans but those are really expensive.
<eyJhb>
Free some places!
<name54>
Not the kind of microscope with a slide from a biology lab... more like a head mounted one that magnifies like 100x. Think powerful mangifiying glass.
<__monty__>
Looks like a plain old stereoscope to me. Like a macroscope but with *two* oculars.
<name54>
Now you're the one being pedantic. But yes, that could be the techincally correct name for the device. Lol. In fact, she said she could see it with her naked eye it was cracked so badly.
<__monty__>
Figured you'd appreciate the pedantry ; )
<name54>
:] Of course, her naked eye was very well trained. She said I might be able to see it myself but I couldn't make it out. I was somewhat surprised that two other normal "general practitioner" dentists couldn't see it either though.
<__monty__>
How'd you manage to crack it btw? Sounds painful.
<name54>
You know... I suspect I did it by accidentally biting down on an olive pit many years ago and it got worse and worse and eventualy, finally infected.
<__monty__>
Yikes. Jarred cherries are always scary to me. Or the pips in blackberries 😱 Those are really the worst.
<name54>
Periodically I'd feel a lot of pain when I bit down on something the wrong way, but only temporarily. Towards the end, when it got infected, the pain was excruciating and continuous.
<name54>
Best to chew gingerly when eating those kinds of foods!
<name54>
What I don't understand is... __monty__, how on earth are you still using a feature phone?!?! You and my dad are probably the last ones doing so.
<name54>
My dad is super old fashioned too so he barely uses his mobile phone ever. It's literally for emergencies only... with giant fonts, lol.
<__monty__>
It's my first phone. Hasn't broken yet so why throw it away?
<__monty__>
I hate consumerism and I spend most of my time at a computer so don't miss a smartphone that much.
<name54>
I can understand that. I wish a handset maker would bring back the slider form factor. I might be too clumsy for a touchscreen.
<FireFly>
my phone's mainly a portable terminal with ssh and portable LTE hotspot tbh
<__monty__>
It's a Sony Ericsson T303 so it *does* slide : )
<FireFly>
name54: you'd be surprised, I know several friends who opt to use feature phones or similar
<joepie91>
name54: I use a brickphone
<joepie91>
basically same reasons as __monty__
<__monty__>
Mind you, I will probably switch to a smartphone when the time comes, can't be much longer given the issues I've had with it.
<__monty__>
I *do* like having a much clearer picture of how insecure all my communication is though : )
<name54>
Man I loved my nokia 6550... the build quality was great!
* joepie91
has no intention of switching until "a device that you have control over" becomes a reasonable thing to exist in smartphone-land
<joepie91>
name54: the newer brickphones have unfortunately not inherited that quality
<joepie91>
on my previous brickphone I managed to crack the screen - yes, cracked screen, on a brickphone
<name54>
Making the switch can be a tough pill to swallow, I certainly empathize.
<__monty__>
I've completely disassembled and reassembled mine several times. And it hasn't done the device any good. But it still keeps on trucking.
<adisbladis>
joepie91: What's your take on pinephone & librem5?
<__monty__>
Recently put it in humid swimming trunks. Screen turned on still but didn't display anything though the logic still seemed ok. Turned it off for a bit et voila.
<name54>
I'd switch back to a feature phone to be honest but I'd want to be able to tether and I'd want at least 3.5G.
<joepie91>
adisbladis: librem has well and truly put me off from ever giving them any money considering how they've been behaving
<name54>
The privacy and security aspect is an issue for me too so I won't use anything I can't build my own custom Lineage image for.
<joepie91>
pine* actually seems well-intentioned but their hardware specs aren't quite there yet and the ecosystem around non-Android phones still needs to develop quite a bit more I think
<adisbladis>
joepie91: Please elaborate on what purism has done wrong :)
<__monty__>
I.e., samueldr get cracking!
<__monty__>
: >
<adisbladis>
I also have some opinions on what I think they've been doing wrong, which mostly comes down to NIH.
<joepie91>
adisbladis: the Librem One thing, for example. rebadging federated services (sure, fine), without being clear what services they actually are (ehhhhhh), and then refusing to moderate their instances because "not our job" leading to them becoming an abuse vector for the broader network
<joepie91>
if I'm going to be giving money to a more 'free' alternative, I'd want to do so to an organization that actually stands behind their ethics, and doesn't just import their company policies from big tech companies :)
<adisbladis>
This is partly why I really like the pinephone approach :)
<adisbladis>
It's not a company that tries to sell you services & the like
<adisbladis>
It's just: "here is some hardware & specs, go nuts"
<joepie91>
I mean, I don't even necessarily have a problem with selling services, so long as it's done with ethical caution
<joepie91>
librem/purism is... not that
<name54>
Purism was never really on my radar but their site says the phone is $2000! Lol, that's a lot of hamburgers for a phone.
<adisbladis>
joepie91: Sadly IME selling services always leads to this
<lejonet>
joepie91: yeah, credit where credit is due, and stand by your principels shouldn't be that hard to understand you'd think
<joepie91>
but yeah, I have not seen any reason to distrust pine stuff, far as I can tell they have the right intentions across the board
<joepie91>
lejonet: especially for a company of this type!
<adisbladis>
They are purely a hardware company and they know it
<lejonet>
joepie91: indeed
<lejonet>
adisbladis: that is what I like about them
<adisbladis>
name54: The website states 750 USD
<adisbladis>
Still a ton of $$$
<lejonet>
I've very much got the itch to get a pinebook from them, but have a hard time motivating it as anything but just another thing to tinker with, which I already have quite a few SBC as :P
<joepie91>
lejonet: yeah that's also kinda been the thing for me :P
<adisbladis>
The made in the US model is 2k$ though O.o
<name54>
I wonder if they're doing geo-located price discrimination because I saw $2k when surfing from the USA.
<adisbladis>
name54: It seems to do with manufacturing location
<name54>
Oh, yeah.. ok US model. The carriers like to do that so they can make extra money.
<adisbladis>
name54: It still seems like the same hardware
<name54>
It's the dvd region encoding of telecom.
<etu>
Yep, same hardware
<etu>
Just assembled elsewhere
<adisbladis>
So if you don't wanna wave your flag and scream "USA, USA" you could order the presumably made in china one for less than half
<lejonet>
joepie91: I have some of their Pine A64 (both backer and LTS versions) SBC, that I never really got anything sane working on
<name54>
I never heard of pine, but it looks they're not ready to ship anything.
<etu>
name54: They tend to sell in batches
<adisbladis>
name54: I was playing around with one just last weekend
<etu>
name54: But they tend to ship fairly quick when they say that they will
<name54>
Right, you could order the one from china but it might not have every band your provider needs/has and so you might get spotty coverage or be on the phone for 20 hours trying to configure your access point.
* etu
has both a pinebook pro and a pinephone
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<adisbladis>
etu: Did you see the "convergence bundle" option in the last batch?
<joepie91>
name54: when pine releases something, basically, their site gets the hug of death and it sells out instantly
<etu>
adisbladis: yep, mine is the "breaveheart edition" though :)
<joepie91>
or well, as 'instantly' as possible when every ordering page takes 5 minutes to load :p
<name54>
joepie91: i see, maybe they can raise their prices?
<joepie91>
name54: honestly I think it's probably fine as it is
<etu>
name54: Nah, they aren't a for-profit company
<joepie91>
part of their goal is to create a market
<joepie91>
lower prices help for that
<lejonet>
^
<etu>
name54: They do stuff like giving away devices to people in need and such nice things as well with the prices they have already :)
<name54>
then jack the prices... lol, maybe!?! From what I understand it's a fiercly competitive market and the demand for a "fully open-source" phone just isn't that great.
<name54>
I mean, why spend that kind of capex to build a niche phone when most people are just blindly buying new samsungs and iphones without blinking?
<etu>
I think they would loose a lot of their fan-base if they raised the prices
<adisbladis>
etu: I know :) But I was pretty happy to see that the convergence edition has 3GB RAM and 32GB eMMC (double the regular one)
<etu>
Since a lot of peolpe are like: "oh, something from pine, oh, it's a smartwatch for $25, I'll buy it to play with it"
<etu>
adisbladis: oh that's nice :)
<adisbladis>
etu: I just ordered it for the nice little hub :P
<etu>
:D
<joepie91>
name54: it being a competitive market is *why* the prices are low, most likely
<joepie91>
like I said, part of their goal is to create a market
<joepie91>
"demand just isn't that great" is the problem it sets out to solve :P
<adisbladis>
etu: Because it's pretty cheap as far as USB-C hub goes already ^_^
<etu>
adisbladis: Oh wow, just looked at a picture. It looks really neat :)
<name54>
yeah, could be... that's what's great about a competitive free market. lots of choice, prices are kept low, and the tech is constantly improving (y)
<joepie91>
'competitive free market' is debatable ;)
<name54>
There are shades of grey of course. I personally can't wait until I can go to a manufacturer's site and pick and choose the exact features, package, and color for my phone!
<name54>
I'm with __monty__ :] Hasn't broken, so why throw it away?
<__monty__>
Sustainable production trends more towards grey slush though. Good enough for everyone. Rather than myriads of colors and other choices.
<name54>
Pessimist! :b
<__monty__>
Just think of it as a commodity. Like cutlery. What it looks like exactly doesn't often matter.
<name54>
I actually don't think you're being intellectually honest __monty__
<lejonet>
__monty__: nothing is stopping you from painting it yourself once you get it ;)
<__monty__>
lejonet: Well, you see, paint would be a grey slush product as well ; p
<lejonet>
__monty__: xD
<lejonet>
so throw a crushed ladybug into it to get a red-ish hue then? :P or some freshly cut grass to get green-ish? :P
<adisbladis>
lejonet: It's cochineal that's commonly used for that
<name54>
Consider how limited your options where just 10 years ago... to how many different models exist now.
<__monty__>
Beet juice works wonders for a similar shade.
<name54>
To how much faster the connection is.
<__monty__>
name54: That's driven by consumerism though. Not sustainability.
<name54>
To the absolute ubiquity of phones now.
<lejonet>
adisbladis: I know its not ladybugs, it was just to show an example of thinking outside the box to get the colour you want :P
<name54>
There's also sustainability... e.g. in secondary markets.
<adisbladis>
lejonet: I would highly recommend going to your local hardware store and buy a spraycan over killing poor bugs
<lejonet>
adisbladis: indeed :P
<lejonet>
maybe find moltings instead? :P
<__monty__>
And every day of consumerist waste means the sustainable alternatives get more boring, because there's less of a margin for frivolity.
<name54>
I bought a used phone off ebay just to keep as a back up internet connection for when my wired internet goes down.
* lejonet
just fired up an backup Nokia N900 he bought ages ago, just a few days ago, because he wanted to check if stuff still worked for it
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<lejonet>
Surprisingly enough, I could install openssh-client from the official app manager still :D
<adisbladis>
name54: You have no idea how many customer returns that ends up in africa eventually
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<FireFly>
lejonet: :)
<lejonet>
adisbladis: that hub of the convergence edition does indeed look really swell
<name54>
adisbladis: I'm sure many do... the profit motive of the manufacturers means they're not going to throw the things out.
<adisbladis>
I've seen first hand how western phones are being refurbished into ones that looks completely new
<adisbladis>
It's pretty phenomenal
<adisbladis>
But, of course many ends up in landfills and get recycled instead :/
<adisbladis>
Reuse > recycle
<joepie91>
<name54> Consider how limited your options where just 10 years ago... to how many different models exist now.
<joepie91>
were they, though?
<joepie91>
there was a very thriving market of custom phone shells
<joepie91>
that has been largely reduced to printed covers of dubious quality
<joepie91>
and under the covers, there seems to be less variety than ever before as well
<joepie91>
with the main distinguishing feature between different models from different brands often being exactly which malware is preinstalled
<joepie91>
the development of phones over the past 10 years looks a lot more like grey slush to me, than like highly-customizable rainbow selections :)
<FireFly>
certainly in terms of physical design and innovation things are a lot more uniform nowadays when every phone is a rectangle with touchscreen
<lejonet>
Wasn't it Apple that tried to sue someone (Samsung perhaps?) with a design patent that was just that? A rectangle with a touchscreen?
<name54>
I respectfully disagree.... what you call malware is really "a creative financing plan", the network speeds have increased a least an order of mangnitude, one can still buy a used mobile phone if they wish to have a clamshell and it will still likely work if it's an unlocked gsm, and the costs have dropped like a rock... they have pre-paid phones
<name54>
that aren't even $50. It may look like grey slush because you're looking at a high res image but if you zoom in a little there's a lot of diversity. They're coming out with folding screens, punch-hole displays. Not all of these differences will dominate but the universe is expanding at a faster rate than we're able to fill it with variation. IMHO
<joepie91>
there was much more variation pre-smartphone than punch-hole displays and foldings creens
<joepie91>
folding screens*
<joepie91>
your argument shows that innovation/experimentation has not 100% died, but it doesn't show that it has improved, at all
<eyJhb>
bqv: that branch does not compile for me
<eyJhb>
Valodim: Worked fairly well
<name54>
Hey, I could be wrong. But if I had to make prediction I'd say we're more likely to be customizing our own personal phones via an "app" than we are to have only one model to choose from. They're already doing it with shampoo... https://www.functionofbeauty.com/order/
<eyJhb>
And might still jump from the highest building
<infinisil>
Heh
<eyJhb>
It seems like much of the code, could be reused
<joepie91>
infinisil: that code looks like pretty standard scientist code
<joepie91>
(and that is why I am highly skeptical of research results that are entirely software-driven)
<name54>
Lol, that job isn't paid hourly... i think a fixed price bid. IDK if I'd call it the worst... C++ can look gross by it's nature IMHO. I don't like that they're not following 1TBS though, that's for sure =(
<eyJhb>
Some yes joepie91 , but I wouldn't say it is generally all code scientist code that is like that
<joepie91>
eyJhb: not all, but enough that it is basically a meme
<eyJhb>
joepie91: it is more of, they do not code that much, so it just needs to work
<joepie91>
eyJhb: for a highly debatable definition of "work"
<joepie91>
and this is basically the issue I have with it
<eyJhb>
"it does something that looks correct"
<joepie91>
don't write code for important things (like research) if you don't understand how to
<eyJhb>
YOU HAVE TO FIGHT ME BEFORE I STOP DOING THAT! :(
<name54>
tabs, yuck
<eyJhb>
Maybe a lang which is hard to make ugly , would be ideal
<eyJhb>
name54: MORE EFFICIENT!
<eyJhb>
You don't want to press space 2 times, do you?
<name54>
I don't press space multiple times, the editor exands the tab into spaces.
<eyJhb>
name54: I know :p
<eyJhb>
See the video for cringe TV example
<eyJhb>
Good show however
<joepie91>
name54: that should kinda be a red flag :P
<name54>
or I'll often just untabify... it's not a big deal. I don't think it's especially terrible to be honest. I don't understand it because I haven't read it, nor am I computational biologist. But it honestly doesn't look like obfuscated Perl so I'm sort of ok with it, lol.
<eyJhb>
space, tab, length is why using other peoples Python code is annoying
<infinisil>
:%retab!
<eyJhb>
Not always..........
<eyJhb>
For some fucking reason
<name54>
I actually don't hate C++... I've done enough of it I guess to have seen much worse.
<name54>
eyJhb: agreed, I could never fully digest Python making indentation significant, but again... whatever. I've gotten to the point that I'm happy to use whatever language the gizmo was written in provided the gizmo is doing it's job as intended. I rarely want to "start fressh"; would rather sit on the shoulders of giants if I can.
<name54>
eyJhb: where I'll disagree with you is when you say "Maybe a lang which is hard to make ugly , would be ideal"
<name54>
eyJhb: and I forget who said it, and I'm paraphrasing but the saying is something like... you can't have a language the prevents you from writing bad things beause it would prevent you from writing good things too. I suppose the same holds true for pretty vs. ugly" It's in the eye of the beholder IMHO
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<eyJhb>
No matter what anyone says, I would argue that Go does this really well
<eyJhb>
Because it has standard formatters, anf most of the time forces you to do it in a specific way
<eyJhb>
But hell that would still look ugly in Go
<name54>
You know, my asthetic taste really isn't overy fickel or sensitive to be honest... I'm more of an existentialist. The stuff generally just exists. Sure some days I think one piece of code is really great or really gross; or one language sweet and another sour. But mostly these things just serve a practical purpose as far as I'm concerned. And so I
<name54>
hate nothing more than not being able to take a existing, working, sniippet and use it unchanged on a newer, supossedly better, system :@
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<joepie91>
eyJhb: Go has also been simplified beyond reason
<name54>
Hell, I like Forth... talk about simple! It's super simple. But I'd hang myself if I needed to rewrite every program I use or steward in it!
<joepie91>
(and with "beyond reason" I mean it ignores the waterbed theory)
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<eyJhb>
joepie91: not sure where that holds true for go
<eyJhb>
ALso...
<eyJhb>
These blocklists block NVidia servers as well
<joepie91>
eyJhb: basically the generics meme goes here
<joepie91>
but I've seen it happen more generally, with people writing a lot of highly-repetitive code because it seems the language works against them in managing their complexity
<joepie91>
and sure, that highly-repetitive code looks very clean visually...
<joepie91>
but... yea
<joepie91>
there's a certain minimum complexity in software development, and if your language doesn't handle it, and it doesn't provide facilities for third-party abstractions to handle it... then the place where that complexity ends up is "throughout the application code", usually tenfold
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<eyJhb>
Well, if you ever read about Go and generics, there is always some good arguments for it.
<eyJhb>
So I wouldn't go into that
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* joepie91
has not seen any good arguments for Go's lack of generics, only bad ones that sound very credible on the surface
<joepie91>
(usually by invoking some kind of "simplicity" claim, which is the ignoring of the waterbed theory I mentioned earlier)
<joepie91>
it's kinda analogous to the whole schemaless database thing, where schemaless DBs are marketed as a "simpler" thing to work with because "you don't have to define a schema"
<joepie91>
when in reality, having a schema is not something you can choose not to do, a schema is something your data either has or does not have, and the only choice is between whether it is explicit in 1 place or implicit scattered through the application code
<joepie91>
and in the long run, storing schemaful data without a schema leads to misery
<name54>
joepie91: pretty sure your observation is where Greenspun's tenth rule comes from, lol
<eyJhb>
joepie91: I have only seen it, when people try to force the way of other languges on Go
<eyJhb>
Which is not intended
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<joepie91>
eyJhb: feel free to hand me a (real-world!) codebase in Go which you believe doesn't suffer from this problem, for later review; I'm fairly confident that I'm going to find code duplication or some other code quality issue resulting from trying to avoid that duplication :)
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<eyJhb>
joepie91: moby/moby
<eyJhb>
Get reviewing!
<eyJhb>
\s :p I could show you my own! Which is real world
<joepie91>
emphasis on "later review" :P today is tax day
<eyJhb>
But honestly, I don't see much code, in any language, which I think is beatiful etc.
<eyJhb>
I don't think you would like to rewiew that either way
<eyJhb>
I have seen code in there, that does think in the standard library, which was faster at some point but no longer is
<eyJhb>
It is terrible
<joepie91>
eyJhb: you keep talking about 'ugly' and 'beautiful' but this is not what I am talking about nor is it important :)
<joepie91>
code is first and foremost a functional thing, a tool - not a work of art
<joepie91>
whether it's aesthetically pleasing is completely irrelevant for whether it's maintainable, reliable, etc.
<joepie91>
(and in fact, often the most reliable code is the code that looks boring as all heck)
<joepie91>
aesthetics just doesn't matter at all, and is not the same thing as readability either
<eyJhb>
Art is a vague term in general, when I see code and I call it ugly/beautiful, it is not because they have ascii drawings but rather the above. It is readable, maintainable, etc.
<joepie91>
then just call it readable/maintainable :P otherwise you're just introducing imprecision into the discussion
<eyJhb>
Like you see a machine, as a engineer, and go "this is a piece of art" because it is wonderful and you know this will be reliable etc.
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<eyJhb>
I will take the engineering stance on it, and I will call it beautiful. Does reddit have a codeporn subreddit?
<eyJhb>
Like cable porn?
<eyJhb>
Ohh, fuck yes.
<eyJhb>
I hate it.
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<name54>
lol
<sphalerite>
ugh. pings going through, but tcpdump is only seeing half of them. whyyyyyyy
<sphalerite>
aaaaah the previous state of "workingness" is entirely incorrect
<eyJhb>
joepie91: also, regards to this. I think you cannot come with any codebase (allmost), that does not have these traits of duplicaton/complexity, sadly... But I have come across the generics issue in Go before, but I found a sweet solution to it.. Sad part is, I cannot remember much of it
<__monty__>
name54: You say grey slush would hamper innovation. But consider how much faster the wireless networking might be if the exterior of phones didn't allow for differentiation by manufacturers.
<__monty__>
eyJhb: Hasn't Go added generics?
<__monty__>
Or is going to at least?
<eyJhb>
__monty__: Going to have!
<eyJhb>
Also the way "exceptions" work in Go
<eyJhb>
I feel like it is half assed
<sphalerite>
the router tries to ping an "internet" address, and seems to… respond to it itself?
<joepie91>
eyJhb: there's a small category of unavoidable duplication, where the copies are different in lots of tiny ways but structurally similar but also not *quite* the same, but this is a very small category. other forms of duplication are certainly fully preventable in JS (and I do so in my code)
<eyJhb>
sphalerite: But... Isn't that just iputils being screwy?
<__monty__>
eyJhb: If the designers of the language, who were so adamant not to have generics have conceded. Why do Go evangelists still defend the "Generics are complicated." meme?
<sphalerite>
eyJhb: no, this responding-to-itself happened before the iputils bump
<eyJhb>
joepie91: I would say the same in my own code as well :p -- __monty__ I haven't been that much into it, sadly. But I do get both sides
<eyJhb>
sphalerite: Ahh... Weird :/
<sphalerite>
eyJhb: the difference is that the newer ping doesn't exhibit this behaviour. I have no idea yet if that's a case of "it no longer responds to itself" or "it now ignores the self-responses"
<eyJhb>
Not sure how to help, at all, networking is not my strong suite
<sphalerite>
aah yes, from iputils's release notes: "discard packets with wrong source address (comply RFC 1122, commit: 5e052ad)"
<__monty__>
eyJhb: My actual point is, maybe it's _necessary_ complexity. You can't fix that by sweeping it under a rug, which both Go and Elm seem to have been doing.
<eyJhb>
__monty__: isn't the complexity at the implementation, and not in the actual usage?
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<eyJhb>
Also, new favorite thing is just watching YouTube videos with people cooking.
<eyJhb>
It has currently replaced games done quick
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<FireFly>
dishes done quick?
<eyJhb>
So quick they are never in the episodes FireFly !
<__monty__>
Yeah, file.io is *terrible* in IRC channels. Even when you *ask* people not to click the link there's always *someone* who clicks the link.
<manveru>
some clients make requests on their own...
<eyJhb>
Do they?
<eyJhb>
Uhhh
<__monty__>
Downloading whatever is at a random url?
<eyJhb>
Let me try fun things then
<__monty__>
That doesn't sound like a smart idea.
<eyJhb>
Shyyyys
<eyJhb>
Makes things easier for us
<manveru>
maybe just for known stuff :)
<manveru>
i dunno, i know that slack does requests for every url
<manveru>
figure some irc clients are configured with crazy plugins too
<__monty__>
I could see trying to render images or fetch youtube titles etc but doing that for random urls sounds like a bad idea.
<infinisil>
Would be easy to test
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<__monty__>
eyJhb: I liked transfer.sh, not sure whether it's still operating. Know they had financial issues.
<manveru>
who had that ipfs pastebin?
<__monty__>
Ironically I think that's bqv?
<manveru>
thought it was graham
<infinisil>
Any ipfs gateway can be used
<Valodim>
croc just failed for me when I tried to actually use it a while ago
<name54>
omg, i'm so tired... i've been chatting all day and night. i should have never switched to this tab! lol. i need a nap... goodnight all
<sphalerite>
oh wow, just read about the pinecil and pinecube.
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<bqv>
Yeah I do the ipfs pasting thing
* kraem
needs to look into ipfs more
<samueldr>
joepie91: (going back to ~5 hours) the nice thing about pine, to me, is that they are openly "this is a toy", but overdeliver, and they are likely already preparing for the next step
<samueldr>
they also don't overpromise on privacy (though I do see "where security is a must" on their site)
<samueldr>
(which is highly debatable)
<samueldr>
while for librem (adisbladis) I can't say for non-technical reasons because I haven't delved in their actions, what irks me is how they act as if they were respectying your freedom, by getting the certification
<samueldr>
which is basically a big red flag that they aren't really in my opinino
<samueldr>
opinion*
<samueldr>
see, to respect your freedom you have to hide the fact you are using a firmware blob if you're using one, in a way where the end-user can't access it, for fear of blob cooties
<samueldr>
so *whenever* that blob ends up being liberated (no thanks for librem's effort at hiding it) you'll still be unable to use the liberated version
<samueldr>
and the communication about the capabilities and the variants of the prototypes of the phone didn't end up bringing confidence up in their capabilites considering what pine was able to do
<samueldr>
which, according to a blog I don't have the link to, is because the purism people don't have hardware design people on board, it's all done through another firm
<samueldr>
though, as far as I'm involved, both phones should have a pretty similar boot chain, u-boot based both, and most likely similar userspace components, so I'm not concerned about supporting the librem 5 myself really much
<bqv>
The nice part about using ipfs for pastes is that things are organically garbage collected
<Church->
Hey so who would like a nixOS primarily-based hosting service?
<Church->
Have a mate experimenting with it?
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<joepie91>
samueldr: yep, that all makes sense
<joepie91>
I guess it's the classic "talks the talk" vs. "walks the walk"
<samueldr>
yeah
<samueldr>
one problem for now is that they are working with tech they understand only, and that means there's not much options for mobile devices :/
<samueldr>
since AFAIUI they work exclusively with allwinner and rockchip hardware (for their SBCs), and only allwinner has what some would call "energy efficient" hardware
<samueldr>
at least, the A64 is desgined for tablet use
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<manveru>
Church-: sure :)
<manveru>
Church-: like vpsfree?
<sphalerite>
hm, good on https://pcbshopper.com/ for self-hosting their ads? first time I've actually seen ads on a website in ages x)
<sphalerite>
oh wow and no fancy tracking on the links or anything
<samueldr>
ads that aren't "bid on your profile at the last moment" and instead are paid placement on a page are imo quite respectful
<samueldr>
yeah, at worst ref=pcbshopper on one of them
<eyJhb>
Need a sharing site!
<samueldr>
eyJhb: sharing what?
<samueldr>
(I don't have any in mind though if it's for files)
<eyJhb>
Weird how the IRC Lounge connects a bunch of times, instead of once
<Church->
manveru: No clue what vpsfree is :p
<bqv>
eyJhb: oh, you did manage it
<eyJhb>
Yeeees
<bqv>
eyJhb: much love!!
<bqv>
hope it wasn't trouble
<eyJhb>
Took forever, and the PR didn't even work to begin with
<bqv>
i was assuming it would be easy
<eyJhb>
Only took 5+ hours
<bqv>
oh my god what
<bqv>
why did you try that long
<bqv>
im sorry
<bqv>
eyJhb: now i feel like i should compensate you, but i don't have any money, so i'll just give you a free favour whenever you need (up to a day's work)
<eyJhb>
I did it in-between plays of Ark :p So it wasn't that annoying! But stuff takes time I guess! But I found some new faults in AndroidEnv, which should be reported I guess :/
<eyJhb>
Does it even work?
<eyJhb>
If it doesn't work, I will jump out the window, just a FYI
<eyJhb>
There is like 4 meters down, so not that much, but still
<eyJhb>
Make that 2-3
<bqv>
eyJhb: fair enough, heh
<bqv>
and yes, it does work!
<bqv>
i will probably share the apk on that pull request thread, in case anyone else wants this patch
<eyJhb>
Do you want the files for it as well?
<eyJhb>
Tobuild it bqv ?
<bqv>
oh, no not really :D i don't plan on hacking on it, at all really
<bqv>
i just wanted that one PR
<bqv>
and acristescu seems entirely AWOL
<eyJhb>
Annoying :/
<eyJhb>
But now there is a easy way to build it
<eyJhb>
Until someone updates the gradle version etc. :p
<bqv>
god bless android...
<samueldr>
please no, may gods bless the ability for the end-user to control the operating system on all their devices, and all devices to be generic machines taking in generic operating systems
<samueldr>
open source and freedom for the user to manipulate them
<samueldr>
(bootloaders)
<samueldr>
and the operating systems too
<bqv>
samueldr: but that's not profitable at all
<samueldr>
bqv: are you sure?
<bqv>
they certainly are
<samueldr>
I don't know :)
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<samueldr>
viric: while a genitalia move, they're free to do as they want with their code
<viric>
I see, I see.
<viric>
it's like publishing binaries under MIT license
<bqv>
that's sneaky as hell
<bqv>
couldn't you by the same logic, publish a jar file rather than .java files
<bqv>
because java is decompilable to .java files
<samueldr>
MIT doesn't care about the source
<bqv>
heck, why not just publish the assembly that constitutes a binary. it's still source
<samueldr>
it concerns attribution and warranty
<viric>
I agree
<samueldr>
oh, and distribution, duh
<bqv>
most people i know seem to love MIT but i never did...
<bqv>
i'm an MPL2 kinda guy
<samueldr>
MIT has been put forward as "the good license" by big corps as it gives them a free pass to embed MIT bits in their closed source stuff
<bqv>
yeah, which is one reason why i'm real confused why my open source friends like it
<samueldr>
some argue that it gives more freedom to the parties using the code
<samueldr>
which is true
<samueldr>
GPL, by design, restricts freedom
<bqv>
anarchy isn't very fun
<bqv>
i treat MPL as the healthy compromise
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<__monty__>
BSD is nice for small projects that'd just end up being rewritten by people who are GPL-averse.
<bqv>
bsd looks pretty lax
<bqv>
isn't it just discount MIT?
<__monty__>
BSD 2-clause is identical afaik.
<bqv>
yeah :/
<bqv>
at least with MPL, you go pretty far towards GPL without actually going full GNU
<bqv>
it pushes open source ideals, without being imposing
<__monty__>
I'm not sure whether that's a good thing.
<bqv>
you'd prefer to be more pushy? or even less?
<__monty__>
I like BSD for small projects, Apache as permissible, GPL as copyleft.
<bqv>
that's a weird range
<bqv>
fair enough.
<samueldr>
I don't think I like the MPL
<samueldr>
doesn't it make contributors' code owned by the project?
<samueldr>
and in turn allows proprietary use
<bqv>
it allows proprietary use in a larger project, but any changes to the project itself fall under the MPL and must have their source disclosed
<samueldr>
ah
<samueldr>
then it's fine enough
<joepie91>
bqv: my main reason for using WTFPL rather than something copyleft, is that I have not found copyleft licenses to do what it says on the tin (violation of them is widespread, and it's practically impossible to do anything against it without a huge bag of money), and they mainly end up introducing headaches and complexity for well-intentioned 'good open-source citizens'
<bqv>
i feel like that way it's just way less aggro than GPL
<bqv>
yeah, fair
<joepie91>
so like, I agree with the objective of a public commons that everyone contributes equally to, I just think that copyleft licenses have proven themselves to not be the correct tool for that
<bqv>
idk i'm happy to carry on just rubberstamping MPL on all my stuff, cause people aren't gonna stop licensing stuff
<joepie91>
(can't speak for your open-source friends ofc, they may have different reasons :P)
<__monty__>
joepie91: Why not CC0? IIRC it's a much more comprehensive public domain license? I've read criticism of WTFPL saying it's not valid in many jurisdictions.
<joepie91>
__monty__: if you have read such criticism, I would like a link to it. because I have had people tell me this several times, and every time when I ask for details, either a) they don't know where they've read it, or b) they link to the OSI thing which actually says no such thing and describes it as being the solution to *public domain dedication* not being a thing everywhere :P
<joepie91>
__monty__: and it doesn't get much more comprehensive than the WTFPL - "I don't care, do whatever, doesn't matter what"
<joepie91>
which is also why I prefer it over the CC0
<joepie91>
less legalese to spit through, it's immediately obvious what the intent is
<__monty__>
Pretty sure it was mentioned here.
<joepie91>
(I do dual-license with the CC0, mainly to stop people complaining about the WTFPL based on badly-remembered criticisms of it :P)
<joepie91>
the OSI thing in question, ctrl+F WTFPL
<joepie91>
(there's actually multiple errors in that little snippet, but that's a different discussion)
<__monty__>
Hmm, I only see a rejection there. No "solution to public domain not being a thing."
<eyJhb>
At some point I should stop buying cat food, and just feed her spiders. Two in the last 5 minutes
<eyJhb>
bqv: what does the app actually do?
<joepie91>
__monty__: it's not very explicit because the notes are brief, it's easier to understand when you've read about the reason for the WTFPL
<eyJhb>
Or rather, the PR?
<joepie91>
__monty__: basically, public domain dedication is not possible in (most of?) Europe, which is what the comment refers to, therefore the WTFPL was created as a minimum-viable license to make it work legally (by making it a license rather than a dedication), and then the OSI incorrectly rejected it on the grounds of "being no different from public domain" (which is wrong for aforementioned reason)
<joepie91>
overall a pretty poor showing on the part of the OSI
<__monty__>
I'd worry about the interpretation of such a flippant license in court. You can't accidentally give away your rights. And it seems easy to argue that you might not've known which rights you're giving away if you say "Do whatever, I don't care."
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<joepie91>
__monty__: I've spoken to a bunch of lawyers about this and basically not a single one of them could come up with a credible issue, all of it was "hm, licenses are usually more legalese" but without a clear reason why that would be necessary (which is not surprising, the legal world also badly suffers from cargoculting)
<joepie91>
so honestly, I don't think those concerns are valid
<joepie91>
(there's been some bubbling below the surface in software-legal-land for the past few years, questioning the high degree of legalese in public licenses)
<joepie91>
and for me personally, ultimately, it just doesn't matter that much
<bqv>
eyJhb: adds that stats screen
<joepie91>
"companies who excessively worry about the amount of legalese in a license" overlaps pretty well with "companies who I probably have no interest in doing free labour for"
<joepie91>
while I do care about license incompatibilities, I don't care about satisfying the every worry and need of a company which is not willing to invest the bare minimum in understanding the licenses of the software they intend to use for free
<__monty__>
It's about damn time.
<__monty__>
The science thread you linked earlier is similar.
<__monty__>
One of the first comments was "Things like your silly remarks are why us scientists don't want to publish our code."
<joepie91>
don't know what remark that is referring to, but I don't feel that it is unreasonable to expect scientists to uphold the same standards for their code as for their prose (ie. reproducible, reliable, analyzable), nor is it unreasonable to expect them to release all of it as freely as possible when it is funded with public money
<eyJhb>
bqv: oh. I guess that is very nice then :p
<joepie91>
that just seems to be an argument for hiding the problem
<__monty__>
I think you're being defensive because you assume I'm being antagonistic?
<__monty__>
I'm pointing out the problem.
<joepie91>
__monty__: oh, that was not meant defensively against you
<joepie91>
just a criticism of the comment
<__monty__>
Which is similar to lawyers insisting on legalese.
<joepie91>
dunno who solatic is but their comment seems about right
<__monty__>
The comment I link is vain and egotistical imo. Get over yourself. If your code is really that bad what makes you think your results are perfect?
<joepie91>
__monty__: right, then we agree :)
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<bqv>
eyJhb: i just opened github
<bqv>
in time to see a comment with a "34 seconds ago" labal
<bqv>
the goddamn timing
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<immae>
I made tests in VMs and all was fine, but the issue was that I had two zpools named "zpool" (due to me doing some testing in a spare partition)
<immae>
So we spent hours trying to understand why it didn’t boot, while the issue was just that
<immae>
So I can confirm that the script works correctly :p
<immae>
as long as you don’t leave crap on the system
<joepie91>
immae: you're almost making it sound like state can wreak havoc! :)
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<immae>
joepie91: not sure I got your reference sorry :p
<joepie91>
immae: well, we *are* in a channel about a distro that tries to make systems more reliable by removing stateful mutation from the equation :P
<immae>
ah right
<immae>
NixOS was by no mean responsible here
<immae>
it made it more difficult to debug true (because my system was so well protected that we found no way to *enter* it, let alone modify its configuration)
<bqv>
eyJhb: btw for future reference I prefer to just set up a toy http server with python, or use netcat and maybe pv, to send files
<immae>
but here it’s only me playing and testing manually and leaving crap behind me
<bqv>
Cut out the middle man
<joepie91>
immae: heh, don't mind my bad humour, I've been doing taxes all day, which doesn't help for the quality of my jokes :P
<joepie91>
or well, more like "trying to avoid doing taxes most of the day and then doing some actual taxes the last 3 hours"
<immae>
ha ha
<immae>
anyway, I’m much more light-hearted now than, say, one hour ago :p