<Ashy>
joepie91: js is single threaded so it's likely your handler can only process that many responses per second on a single thread right?
<pie_>
that sounds...low?
* pie_
has never written node
<adisbladis>
No, the nodejs runtime can handle a hella lot more than that
<adisbladis>
Connection pool is more likely the issue
<bqv>
pie_: I just had a full on joke lined up, but then I realised you said "node" not "code"
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<bqv>
''' It's easy, first step is to master C. ...Then o, d, and e '''
<adisbladis>
Apart from a potential connection pool contention, I don't know.
<pie_>
bqv: :Dű
<ashkitten>
this is why i don't write in scripting langs
<ashkitten>
hard to debug what the runtime is doing
<ashkitten>
obvs compilers can be screwy too but you can always just debug it with the binary
<Ashy>
it's generally fun to play around with some test cases though, i would drop almost all of the logic out of the handler and just log the response code and see what the throughput is like then
<Ashy>
multiprocessing gets you a long way in python for example, there's a fair amount of satisfaction in filling up those bars up the top of htop for a few extra lines of code up front
<ashkitten>
python doesn't have multithreading though
<ashkitten>
it has a global interpreter lock
<ashkitten>
you can have multiple os threads, sure
<ashkitten>
but you can't run code simultaneously
<adisbladis>
ashkitten: As I guess you know not everthing retains the GIL
<adisbladis>
So it's not as clear as "you can't run code simultaneously"
<ashkitten>
what do you mean? that was my understanding
<adisbladis>
More like "you can't run python code simultaneously"
<ashkitten>
you mean like native libraries can run multithreaded but you can't have a python-only program that runs threaded?
<adisbladis>
If you call some native code for example that may release the GIL
<adisbladis>
Exactly
<ashkitten>
that's pretty weak
<adisbladis>
I'm not saying it's good mind you ;)
<ashkitten>
honestly
<adisbladis>
It's just not as clear cut as people tend to think
<ashkitten>
"in order to write multithreaded code in python, you have to use a language other than python" :p
<samueldr>
easy, shell out to bash
<adisbladis>
samueldr gets it
<bqv>
I thought that was the point of "multiprocessing"
<bqv>
Guess I don't python enough…
<bqv>
ashkitten: the haskell runtime is similarly painful to debug, in fairness :D
<Church->
Ashy: Having had to use multiprocessing recently, works like a charm. Spawn a process pool and then a threadpool per each work unit from the process pool
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<Ashy>
yeah it's really nice if it fits the workload
<Ashy>
pandarallel is a nice little lib too if you're using pandas
<colemickens>
Is udhcpc widely used? I can't imagine it is?
<Ashy>
bolts on a df.parallel_apply() function to the dataframe api that spawns a multiprocessing pool and runs df.apply() across it
<Ashy>
less setup headache than dask
<aleph->
Neat
<samueldr>
sometimes I wonder why some developers seem entirely allergic to any kind of output when things go wrong
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* bqv
looks at infinisil
<bqv>
:p
* colemickens
figured out his dhcp woes. silly stage2 wiping out /etc/resolv.conf
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<drakonis>
hmm the nix discord has too many big names now
<drakonis>
perhaps it is time to make it into a real thing?
<samueldr>
a platform that hostile shouldn't be given any kind of time
<samueldr>
NO
<bqv>
aleph-: don't encourage it
<samueldr>
relay bots are an ABOMINATION
<aleph->
They kinda are
<aleph->
You get used to them though
<samueldr>
they are only good to make discussion completely meaningless
<samueldr>
you get used to it like you'd get used to live in a house with nails as carpetting
<aleph->
Also yay, kinda got a semi working version of a router config on one of my nuc's
<aleph->
So getting my omnia going should be a "breeze"
<samueldr>
if it all builds for armv7l :)
<drakonis>
they're setting up a relay bot on irc lol
<drakonis>
on #nix-darwin i think
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<samueldr>
ugh
<samueldr>
that's gonna make logs horrible
<bqv>
the consensus here is that we don't like them, so surely if one turns up we can kick it
<samueldr>
matrix has bridging done right
<colemickens>
even mozilla picked matrix...
<samueldr>
discord works just as well as microsoft windows does
<samueldr>
same energy
<drakonis>
its bridged to #nix-community
<drakonis>
its been active for a week now
<samueldr>
huh???
<colemickens>
(I actually get an insane amount of value from Discord and it has a UX that I can sell my family on that I can't yet for Matrix)
<samueldr>
#nix-community is empty here
<samueldr>
I'm alone
<colemickens>
what even is #nix-community
<samueldr>
(unless my client glitched out?)
<colemickens>
is that a thing
<samueldr>
neat, my client glitched out
<samueldr>
now, on what other channels aren't I, where I want to be?
<bqv>
lol
<colemickens>
omg, I did "!invite #nix-community" and I got three invites all at once
<colemickens>
wtf
<drakonis>
i'm there atm
<drakonis>
the bot is NixBridge
<samueldr>
while I'm not too fond of hardline ideologis
<samueldr>
ideologies*
<bqv>
putting nix in the name doesnt make something good
<samueldr>
I think going against discord *and similar closed platforms* is where I draw the line
<drakonis>
i'm not crazy on discord, but it is the du jour proprietary communication method
<drakonis>
much like icq and msn existed in the early 2000s
<bqv>
no, thats facebook
<drakonis>
before their inevitable decline
<bqv>
want a facebook bridge?
<drakonis>
lordn o
<colemickens>
samueldr: I'm with you, but for me it was "drop everything and make a matrix client I can sell my parents on" or "just use Discord for now".
<drakonis>
no ty
<drakonis>
bqv: its one of the nix subcommunities
<colemickens>
I donated and try to talk up Matrix so I don't feel as guilty using the ole 'Cord.
<bqv>
i meant "nixbridge"
<drakonis>
oh
<drakonis>
okay
<samueldr>
and discord being openly hostile all around to everything is not good
<samueldr>
it amazes me (in a bad way) that open source communities embrace the D
<drakonis>
he he
<drakonis>
i need a emote for this
<drakonis>
( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)
<samueldr>
like, I'm actually incomfortable with the idea
<bqv>
you know what irc needs? those massive stickers on whatsapp and fb chat
<drakonis>
it looks better with non monospaced fonts
<drakonis>
bqv: definitely not
<samueldr>
(same if it was slack, or MS teams, or whatever is fancy)
<drakonis>
discord has that
<drakonis>
mattermost?
<bqv>
drakonis: but that's what makes discord GREAT
<drakonis>
run our own mattermost instance to replace discord
<colemickens>
samueldr: same, for example, I think that Rust has a *huge* discord presence.
<drakonis>
we have a telegram group it seems
<drakonis>
not official either
<samueldr>
oh, forgot telegrams
<drakonis>
there's a variety of foss projects that have embraced discord as a way to reach out to people
<drakonis>
at least its not gitter
<drakonis>
good lord, gitter.
<colemickens>
It just feels like it's going to be turn out like other platforms, most recently thinking of Medium. Oh wait, you mean your random blog is getting paywalled on someone else's platform? hm.
<drakonis>
medium
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<drakonis>
ugh
<samueldr>
and I fear, hearing about some people embracing Discord, and Matrix (the non-bridged channels) that we're actually diluting any hopes of having great discussions
<bqv>
i mean i have issues with matrix too, but it's still miles better than anything comparable
<samueldr>
it'll often be subsections that don't interact with the others
<drakonis>
discourse?
<samueldr>
nah, discourse is the ML and is "open"
<drakonis>
though discourse carries the forums posting curse
<samueldr>
it's for timing-independent discussions
<colemickens>
fwiw the "Nix" Matrix room is _very, very_ infrequently used
<drakonis>
that of permanence
<drakonis>
the real annoying thing about matrix though
<drakonis>
is that it does these links
<colemickens>
(I assume we could bridge to #Nix:matrix.org too, if we wanted)
<drakonis>
someone on the main channel wrote some big post and it just appeared as a text link
<samueldr>
and I also fear that this dilution of participation, especially since there is no "centralized" moderation may create different values among the community
<samueldr>
not that different values are wrong
<samueldr>
but what if something doesn't match?
<samueldr>
what if one of the splintered community becomes quite arrogant and elitist among themselves?
<drakonis>
that's a problem.
<samueldr>
a new user could get the wrong impression
<drakonis>
the telegram group has a little bit of that
<samueldr>
(or what if *we* here on freenode become elitists?)
<drakonis>
as it is split between people using guix and nix
<drakonis>
ha
<bqv>
that's almost an argument *For* the bridge
<drakonis>
aren't we already?
<drakonis>
we're having these conversations about the best platform
<bqv>
and yes, irc has always been elitist as hell
<samueldr>
bqv: if the bridge was a good IRC citizen, like the matrix bridge is, sure
<samueldr>
but it isnt
<samueldr>
bqv: not here
<samueldr>
if within the nixos community elitism is shown, it should be discouraged openly
<bqv>
that's flagrant nonsense, i'd bet large money i can find a jaded irc elitist in every single populated channel on freenode
<samueldr>
(usually the phrasing "here we leave elitism at the door" or something along the line is a good message)
<samueldr>
oh, sure, people can be
<samueldr>
they're still people
<samueldr>
but they shouldn't act as such
<samueldr>
within our community
<drakonis>
i'd like to suggest something
* bqv
shrugs
<drakonis>
run bridges within a nixos controlled instance
<drakonis>
rather
<samueldr>
bridges of what?
<samueldr>
instance of what?
<drakonis>
bridge every primary channel into this instance
<drakonis>
mattermost
<drakonis>
really
<drakonis>
because its the closest thing to discord and slack
<bqv>
oh god, i forgot about that part of discord, each server has like 4000 channels
<samueldr>
though if it ends up being those horrible irc bridges
<samueldr>
I don't think it's a good idea
<drakonis>
yes that's the worst thing about discord
<samueldr>
the issue with those kind of bridges (relay bots) is that they're extremely lossy
<samueldr>
you don't get the presence
<samueldr>
so I can't know who's on the other side
<samueldr>
I can't complete names
<samueldr>
(where I is anyone in fact)
<bqv>
in that sense, even the matrix bridge isn't up to your standard
<samueldr>
so it ends up being basically screaming into the void hoping the right people will be there
<bqv>
because it lazily loads users
<samueldr>
that, I didn't know
<bqv>
and doesn't unload them
<samueldr>
but at the very least there *is* presence
<drakonis>
i agree that it is lossy
<drakonis>
because i've been on a channel with a discord bridge once
<samueldr>
I really think I'd leave chat if bridges were going on
<drakonis>
if someone edits on discord, you're not made aware of those edits
<samueldr>
or worse
<drakonis>
i've experienced it already
<samueldr>
the messages can be re-sent
<samueldr>
depending on the configuration
<drakonis>
yes
<bqv>
i mean i do like the matrix bridge more, cause of the service link, but even if discord had that i still wouldn't want it bridged
<drakonis>
message deleting
<colemickens>
(also, I think Matrix needs nested rooms, ala communities v2 as UX before I can push to next wave of friends/family)
<bqv>
it's not the bridge, it's the platform, and the people
<bqv>
nested rooms?!
<samueldr>
so if you have editing-elliot that re-edits all 10 spelling mistakes on their messages, this gets quite spammy
<drakonis>
this is complicated.
<colemickens>
bqv: I think they sort of use rooms in the api as a ... container in other ways already? there's a proposal about it that gets referenced a lot
<samueldr>
though my *real* issue before even thinking about bridging and such is that those are closed services with hostile intentions
<bqv>
well, yeah, they're data stores, but what would "nested rooms" look like? or even be used for
<samueldr>
that alone is a non-starter
<bqv>
sounds as nonsensical as "nested databases"
<colemickens>
what do once the cat is out of the bag though? The discord seems way more active than I'd realized
<bqv>
bridge the discord to #nixos instead
<colemickens>
(and as much as I have strong feelings about it, I can't argue with people who review tons of my PRs, have taught me a lot, etc, that prefer to be on Discord)
<samueldr>
:(
<bqv>
if it really matters, and it's about nixos and the community, then it should go there, so this place remains chill and simple
<samueldr>
really bums me out, how people are fine with that
<samueldr>
(not singling anyone out)
<bqv>
i'm not particularly fine with it, but that's the lesser of two evils
<drakonis>
i want to get it on record that i'm not particularly excited about that, but it has gotten very large
<samueldr>
what's "very large"?
<colemickens>
samueldr: for all _I_ know they're equally conflicted about it but just want to "get things done" and not muck with figuring out if Matrix is stable yet, etc. I sometimes find that there's a different line on that for people.
<bqv>
oh, that's a good point, it could bridge to matrix instead to solve the presence problem
<bqv>
not that i'm advocating that either
<drakonis>
big nix contributors such as zimbatm, ryantm, jonringer, nobbz, domenkozar
<drakonis>
i think wop's in there too
* samueldr
figures out no big nix contributors are on irc
<samueldr>
I was thinking more in term of numbers
<drakonis>
oh
<drakonis>
right
<bqv>
i'm sure i've seen jon here, ryan too, and definitely wop
<drakonis>
well, i know the majority is here
<drakonis>
yes i'm aware
<samueldr>
since if that was the main metric, irc would probably win in "big names"
<drakonis>
they're there too
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<drakonis>
well, to be fair, if the metric was the amount of people there
<drakonis>
irc would still win
<bqv>
obviously
<bqv>
irc is idling: the game
<drakonis>
556 offline, 128 online, 3 admins
* colemickens
is always surprised when people actually join/part instead of their bouncer just staying connected
<drakonis>
setting up a bouncer is effort :v
<bqv>
i spent over a decade caring about joinspam. i've earned my right
<JJJollyjim>
having a bouncer is incredibly rare
<bqv>
depends on the channel..
<JJJollyjim>
(i should probably stay away from this conversation, i have very strong feelings about less-technical people being left out of conversations because they're happening on irc)
<samueldr>
JJJollyjim: that's a true issue that I would love to see solved
<samueldr>
but like the meme "no, not like that"
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<JJJollyjim>
yeah
<samueldr>
are we willing to sacrifice fundamental values for that?
<samueldr>
I am not
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<bqv>
i am :p
<JJJollyjim>
(i just left a dysfunctional company of 350 staff where irc was the only chat platform, and half the company was entirely left out of conversations cos they couldn't jump through the hoops)
<bqv>
wait, what's "that"
<samueldr>
oof
<samueldr>
bqv: are we willing to sacrifice fundamental values for making chat more accessible?
<bqv>
oh, definitely not
<samueldr>
here, by using the easy way out and selling out with our community's soul into a closed platform?
<samueldr>
like, I'm not even happy with freenode
<samueldr>
but it's the less evil and generally accepted and well-known place to get chat going in open source
<samueldr>
or... well... it was
<samueldr>
until recently :(
<bqv>
obviously the best result would be us ending up on some decentralised platform
<colemickens>
curious what you're referring to there samueldr
<bqv>
hey, what if nix became the pioneer of ssb
<drakonis>
ssb?
<drakonis>
scuttlebutt?
<bqv>
yes
<colemickens>
I think one of nixpkgs's strengths is community and it would be unfortunate to lose contributors because IRC is a barrier.
<bqv>
it's pretty great, just suffers from nobody actually using it
<samueldr>
colemickens: I agree, but to me it's worse to go through a proprietary and hostile platform
<bqv>
but if nixos is enough to drag half of us to discord, surely it could populate ssb
<samueldr>
I'm not an expert enough to relay the information myself
<bqv>
wait
<bqv>
if voice is all they want, we have matrix
<samueldr>
that's not all they want I think
<samueldr>
but that's how it started
<bqv>
:/
<samueldr>
way back when, like the end of the 2000s I was looking into making IRC easy to use and such things
<samueldr>
hindight is 20/20 (lol)
<samueldr>
hindsight*
<samueldr>
I should have gone full hog
<samueldr>
I could have sold for millions to a vulture capitalist!
<JJJollyjim>
matrix has voice?
<bqv>
i still don't understand what's hard about irc
<bqv>
it's only hard when you start wanting a bouncer etc.
<samueldr>
bqv: not necessarily hard
<bqv>
JJJollyjim: jitsi builtin
<samueldr>
but you basically said it
<samueldr>
wanting a bouncer
<samueldr>
why do you want a bouncer?
<samueldr>
for the presence issues intrinsic with IRC
<samueldr>
you do not get the past events
<bqv>
some call that a feature
<JJJollyjim>
"wanting a bouncer" equates to "getting the basic features people now expect from other platforms"
<samueldr>
if you join from multiple locations, you have to join as multiple accounts
<samueldr>
no shared history
<colemickens>
samueldr: it's a long thread, but I don't see anything about hostility affecting the current unofficial Discord users, just the standard faire "we are a prop service, we would harvest what your eyeballs look at every second of the day if we could".
<samueldr>
it's not *hard* per se
<samueldr>
but they are true issues
<samueldr>
colemickens: and that's not enough?
<colemickens>
samueldr: I agree with you in principal, just maybe not where the line is drawn. anyway, I thought you were implying something happened with Freenode
<samueldr>
ah, no
<samueldr>
I don't like freenode for one reason: it's not self-hosted so when problems arise we're stuck
<samueldr>
(or we can't improve upon)
<colemickens>
samueldr: I just don't know, just like I don't know if Guix's stances on discussions of nonfree software are overall harmful or helpful for Free Software overall.
<JJJollyjim>
I move around all the time, I close my laptop frequently, I lie in bed and chat on my phone. That shouldn't be something reserved for people who run their own server and can install znc or whatever
<samueldr>
I think there is a big distinction between *discussing non-free* and *embracing non-free*
<colemickens>
^^^ +1000
<samueldr>
JJJollyjim++
<{^_^}>
JJJollyjim's karma got increased to 3
<samueldr>
that's definitely an issue and it's not something I'm blind to
<samueldr>
IRC is a mess, ESPECIALLY considering the other options
<bqv>
i'm not sold
<colemickens>
samueldr: I don't disagree, I didn't mean to imply that they were similarly extreme. But I think there's a similar inherent trade-off regarding UX and freedom and what "freedom" means, and yatta yatta
<samueldr>
yeah
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<samueldr>
I think that, considering the unfree software issue with NixOS, it's relatively clear that embracing a closed platform for chat wouldn't be a thing
<colemickens>
I guess for me it's one where I sympathize with both, and at this point am not too worried because I think Matrix passed a tipping point and eventually we will have a robust Matrix Nix community and the Discord will naturally fall by the wayside.
<bqv>
samueldr: see i would have thought that too, but seeing this thread now i'm doubting
<samueldr>
like, we're making it easy enough for people to use unfree, but we are NOT advertising and we do not depend on unfree
<bqv>
samueldr: i haven't read it all, but is there anything discord provides that matrix doesn't?
<samueldr>
colemickens: what worries me is why did they even go with discord? since Matrix is good enough already AFAICT?
<samueldr>
bqv: I don't know
<bqv>
9
<colemickens>
samueldr: oh, I mean, I had bugs just joining #nix-community. Until recently major lag was not uncommon. The UX of the client is still... pretty significantly far from dIscord's IMO.
<samueldr>
hm
* samueldr
should get working on the time machine
<samueldr>
I should slap some sense into me
<bqv>
colemickens: you mean riot/element vs discord?
<colemickens>
bqv: yes but that's not the choice presented to the end-end-user
<bqv>
what is?
<colemickens>
bqv: you can't say "oh yeah Element is still buggy but is Matrix underneath".
<aleph->
Yeah matrix has tons of bugs still. Server impls are... poor to be nice.
<samueldr>
and this discussion is probably the worst kind
<aleph->
And the protocol is meh tbh.
<samueldr>
since all options have quite big drawbacks
<aleph->
Eyep
<samueldr>
IRC being accessibility (mostly)
<colemickens>
But, I do also have pet peeves that Matrix is rejected often as a choice by people that make false claims about it. But that happens with literally everything, so what can you do.
<samueldr>
matrix (apparently) has bugs and issues still (at least with IRC interop)
<samueldr>
when matrix was introduced into the world, I think there were IRC interop in the other way around
<samueldr>
e.g. you use IRC to make use of matrix
<bqv>
like i said earlier, matrix leaves a lot to be desired but it's still got kilometers on discord
<aleph->
I definitely would like matrix to get better
<samueldr>
instead of using matrix to make use of irc
<samueldr>
I wonder if it's still a thing that exists
<colemickens>
"matrix-ircd", I think, is still around
<bqv>
what, using irc to use matrix? i don't think anyone would rely on that lol
<samueldr>
it's way too late for any of that, but I wonder if it's passable for IRC lovers to make it a better place for everyone
<samueldr>
bqv: why?
<samueldr>
I would, assuming the "real server" is matrix
<colemickens>
unfortunately I don't think that solves the problems that exist at the actual bridging layer, it's more to enable people with irc client preferences
<bqv>
because the bridge is unreliable as hell, and if you want to use matrix, generally you just use matrix, now
<bqv>
even i wouldn't do that
<samueldr>
yeah, here I'm thinking about using it without going to freenode
<samueldr>
(way too late for that)
<bqv>
i do use weechat as my matrix client though
<samueldr>
I wasn't clear
<samueldr>
I'm not stating IRC->matrix->freenode
<samueldr>
that's just bonkers
<colemickens>
yeah, samueldr I think that's a viable option potentially. Only have a Matrix room, run an irc server as a frontend to it for your irc users.
<samueldr>
yeah
<bqv>
oh, i see
<colemickens>
But it seems like an awkward choice. I started a room, I don't want to run infra, so I just made a freenode room too and bridged it.
<bqv>
does matrix-ircd even still work, though?
<bqv>
i thought it was long broken
<colemickens>
bqv: there's a green pill badge on the repo, you know its good to ship
<bqv>
i'd be quite happy with that as a solution though
<bqv>
especially if that's enough to make discord go away
<samueldr>
I feel the community should be in total control and ownership of their platform
<samueldr>
(or with the ability to be)
<samueldr>
like, with the discourse, sure, it's hosted for now
<samueldr>
but the domain is ours
<bqv>
there's a green pill badge on synapse too, but i'd hardly call that "working" :P
<colemickens>
samueldr: DNS? :P
<samueldr>
and the product allows you to use it Freely
<samueldr>
colemickens: as part of it :)
<samueldr>
github is an example of how not to
<samueldr>
you're not in control of the URL
<samueldr>
gitlab.com is also an example of how not to
<colemickens>
samueldr: I just meant, in the grand scheme of owning your own fate, DNS is imo one of the harder points
<colemickens>
but there's .onion and .eth and some others I suppose
<colemickens>
(obviously a different threat/magnitude than exactly what you're referring to)
<samueldr>
the biggest trick the devil ever pulled on developers is having them use platforms where they're not in control of the URL
<samueldr>
yeah, at some point you have to root your trust somewhere
<bqv>
from my point of view, it doesn't matter at all, because either it's owned by people that aren't the majority of the community, or it's owned by random capitalists. it's splitting hairs. i don't think there's substantial benefit until it's actually *community owned*, i.e. decentralized
<samueldr>
DNS is *fine* here, because it's already in use
<bqv>
and matrix would allow that
<samueldr>
no
<samueldr>
it matters a bunch if no one vs. parts of the community is in charge
<bqv>
i don't feel it does, tbh
<bqv>
but i assumed you'd disagree
<colemickens>
bqv is that fully true though? it's federated, not decentralized, and a room is still homed to a home-server?
<samueldr>
when you're locked-in with a vendor, you're locked in; the end
<bqv>
colemickens: actually no, it's not
<samueldr>
(unless you completely vacate and start afresh)
<bqv>
the room is federated too
<samueldr>
whilst if "leaders" of the community own a platform, they can evolve it to better suit the needs
<bqv>
i could join, on my homeserver, give the room a new name hosted on my homeserver, and still have it work even if the original homeserver went down
<bqv>
or at least, according to the matrix spec that would work. synapse is still a clusterfuck
<colemickens>
It still requires coordination among your users to discover the alternative, effectively mirrored rooms.
<bqv>
colemickens: no, it's the same room
<bqv>
you've misunderstood
<bqv>
you can give a room several "names"
<bqv>
e.g. admins:matrix.org == test:zemos.net
<bqv>
those are the same room
<bqv>
the room is entirely federated, as with the users
<colemickens>
so if 99% of the users are connected via matrix.org accounts
<colemickens>
and they block the room, how will they discover your HS offering the room?
<bqv>
then anyone not using matrix.org is just fine
<bqv>
the room is not in any way owned by matrix.org
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<bqv>
those users are, though :p
<bqv>
poor users...
<colemickens>
I'm trying to decide if I think this is the same "decentralized" as ipfs.
<bqv>
for the record, i've tested that. the room for the nheko client, it's original homeserver no longer even exists
<JJJollyjim>
There's no real link between names (aliases in matrix parlance) and what servers the room is actually hosted on
<bqv>
yet look, you can still join it!
<bqv>
JJJollyjim: exactly
<bqv>
colemickens: think of it as closer to blockchain
<colemickens>
okay, I see.
<colemickens>
I've amended my mental model.
<bqv>
good stuff
<JJJollyjim>
Oh no now I'm thinking of it like blockchain
<JJJollyjim>
Run away
<bqv>
bad stuff
<colemickens>
interesting, now I'm thinking about how these mappings are cached, etc, in cases that they do go missing from an HS.
<colemickens>
(if someone is privately tracking these sorts of things too, probably someone is)
<bqv>
the mappings are looked up just like dns
<bqv>
the creation of a room is signed, so it can't be faked, and every room event from then on is cryptographically verifiable too
<bqv>
adding names to that room are events too
<colemickens>
I understand that. I'm trying to address the matrix.org client user case though where I no longer can look up the room id.
<bqv>
so the names can propagate through federation
<bqv>
i mean if your homeserver's malicious then you're fucked
<bqv>
there's nothing you can do about that
<bqv>
use a different one :p
<colemickens>
yeah, I guess in my case the HS is "semi" malicious, enough that your client could've discovered other HSes before the censoring began
<bqv>
beyond that, the protocol will keep you safe, because the lookup isn't centralised (ideally)
<colemickens>
I mean, I think there could be some use in that, if it were automatic.
<colemickens>
bqv: oh really? can I DHT discover rooms on HSes or something?
<bqv>
yeah, see that's an issue NV have solved by making synapse a tiny bit centralised
<bqv>
it does use matrix.org (hardcoded) to lookup server keys
<bqv>
but otherwise, you could use any other server
<bqv>
and, every server has a rooms endpoint
<bqv>
to list rooms the server hosts
<colemickens>
yeah but my brand new server isn't going to know about all other HSes until they have a reason to become aware of them, right?
<bqv>
pretty sure it's even public
<bqv>
yeah, obviously
<bqv>
i mean, you're edging on the one biggest problem with how NV has gone about things - matrix is way too poorly federated
<bqv>
but by the protocol, for the most part, you could blip out matrix.org and everything would be fine, just a lot less discoverable
<colemickens>
might be over my head, to me I very much look at it and go "it must be hard, they're the only people ive seen have any mainstream success, god speed to them".
<bqv>
nah, not true. the fediverse is way more successful AND well federated
<bqv>
but in terms of chat services specially, sure
<colemickens>
I was going to make an argument that this can't happen in IPFS but I guess blocklists are a thing, its the same idea.
<colemickens>
"the fediverse is way more successful" is definitely going to raise an eyebrow and a request for elaboration from me ;P
<bqv>
you're not thinking of making a chat app based on ipfs are you lol
<colemickens>
nooooo
<colemickens>
like I said, "hard problems, god speed" :P
<bqv>
uh, well how about raw numbers? i don't have them to hand, but without looking them up again i'd wager the fediverse currently has 2 orders of magnitude more users than the known matrix universe
<bqv>
not to mention, mastodon's got popular enough to scare twitter a bit
<bqv>
matrix hasn't even made ripples
<colemickens>
I did sort of forget about Mastodon
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<aleph->
Reminds me, should work on updating elixir stuff and get pleroma building on nixOS
<bqv>
..interesting, users aren't listed
<bqv>
aleph-: oh, i was working on that at one point
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<aleph->
Heh, I probably saw your PR then
<aleph->
Or issue
<bqv>
oh, lol
<bqv>
forgot i made that
<bqv>
i did make a start on it, and at least got -be building
<bqv>
but i was way too ambitious and got bored
<aleph->
Heh, ain't that life
<bqv>
:D
<bqv>
besides i reckon i'm fine with mastodon, now
<aleph->
Just kinda over-engineered I think and not in a good way
<bqv>
totally, that's why i was considering pleroma
<aleph->
Needs at least two db I think.
<bqv>
but it's way too much of a pain in the ass
<aleph->
Ya ya
<bqv>
anyway, matrix is definitely federated enough for there to be decent community ownership of the "room", and matrix also has moderation tools like irc, so it's not much of a change
<bqv>
i'd be real happy to move this place to #chat:nixos.org or something cool like that
<bqv>
that's way better than ending up on discord :|
<bqv>
*sigh* now i feel like i need to fix my homeserver
<bqv>
samueldr: i think that was actually a really good idea, using matrix-ircd, though
<bqv>
that way everyone's happy
<samueldr>
depends if the experience is good
<samueldr>
but to me that was one of the interesting ways of using matrix, when it was first introduced
<bqv>
if it isn't, that's still a much more solvable issue than bridges
<samueldr>
like, we could replace IRCds
<samueldr>
and an IRCd replaced that way gets more accessible for those "not e1337" users
<bqv>
i definitely recall thinking it was broken as hell, not sure why
<aleph->
Okay finally found the fracking dts and defconfig for u-boot for my omnia
<aleph->
Now to see about building and flashing a image.
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<ashkitten>
ah, people talking about chat apps earlier
<ashkitten>
oh and mastodon
<ashkitten>
what i really want is a p2p mega-forum thing
<ashkitten>
i'm so sick of mastodon's twitter model making all my friends' messages compete with each other
<ashkitten>
i guess ssb is what i want
<ashkitten>
heh
<ashkitten>
but i'd kinda like message deletion (though i know the issues with that..)
<ashkitten>
when ssb gets message deletion i'll probably try and convince my friends to join
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<joepie91>
colemickens: the Nix Matrix room is infrequently used, but has a high answer rate. I made some comments about this earlier
<joepie91>
<colemickens> samueldr: oh, I mean, I had bugs just joining #nix-community. Until recently major lag was not uncommon. The UX of the client is still... pretty significantly far from dIscord's IMO.
<joepie91>
FTR, non-developer users tend to care far less about slowness than developers think they do
<joepie91>
in the bigger scheme of things
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<joepie91>
the bugs are an issue, but those, too, are considered less significant than developers tend to believe. the #1 thing that drives away especially less-technical users, is when they feel lost and either feel like the application is doing things they don't understand, or they can't figure out how to do what they want
<etu>
Yep, confusion is bad
<joepie91>
<colemickens> I'm trying to decide if I think this is the same "decentralized" as ipfs.
<joepie91>
no, IPFS is P2P, Matrix rooms are federated
<etu>
Matrix room history can kinda be compared to how git operates in federation. If you want to push to a remote server you have to rebase first.
<etu>
But that comparison really only helps developers that understand git.
<etu>
Which is probably far from most developers :D
<joepie91>
well no you don't have to rebase first :P
<joepie91>
everything gets linearized by the receiving server
<joepie91>
(... in theory)
<etu>
But then on all servers it has the exact same order (I think), which isn't the case for like IRC
<joepie91>
yeah
<JJJollyjim>
That's an incredibly complex part of matrix, since all the servers have to have the same idea of which events are allowed (since they are authorized by other events like joins and OPings and such)
<joepie91>
anyhow, speaking practically: I think Matrix is, despite its bugs and lingering performance issues, already at a point where it's suitable for hosting a NixOS community -- with the caveat that there are no clients yet that are both 100% feature-complete and terminal-based, and so you will especially anger the portion of the community which does not want to run anything that isn't a terminal thing or which uses more than
<joepie91>
5MB of RAM
<joepie91>
there are definitely bugs and performance issues left, but realistlcally people use things that are slower and buggier all the time
<joepie91>
so I'm unconvinced that it's a practical issue
<joepie91>
(for this usecase)
* joepie91
has been daily-driving and developing for Matrix for like a year now and has become intimately familiar with its deficiencies :P
<joepie91>
<Ashy> joepie91: js is single threaded so it's likely your handler can only process that many responses per second on a single thread right?
<joepie91>
no, the process is nowhere near CPU-congestion
<joepie91>
<Ashy> it's generally fun to play around with some test cases though, i would drop almost all of the logic out of the handler and just log the response code and see what the throughput is like then
<joepie91>
basically what I did, still the wrong response pattern :P
<joepie91>
it seems unlikely to be a Node core thing, given that someone with Debian and Ubuntu systems could not reproduce it
<joepie91>
I've also determined that all the sockets are getting initialized at the same time, before the first response comes in, which suggests that it isn't a socket/fd exhaustion issue
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<joepie91>
,locate ab
<{^_^}>
Found in packages: atom, dirt, ping, vocal, cipher, codimd, hashit, povray, blender, bookworm, ideogram, isocodes, sequeler, atom-beta, formatter, gscan2pdf, jdk.debug, torrential, apacheHttpd, glibc.debug, regextester, openssl.debug, akira-unstable, pantheon.granite, elementary-planner, pantheon.wingpanel, jre8_headless.debug, pantheon.switchboard, pantheon.elementary-code, python27Packages.dulwich, python37Packages.dulwich, and 43 more
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<vika_nezrimaya>
pretty sure it's called like that but it's not hub
<vika_nezrimaya>
Oh
<vika_nezrimaya>
kinda forgot about it lol
<bqv>
lol
<bqv>
__monty__: it's called "gh", i think. hub isn't official, anymore
<__monty__>
You're right.
<__monty__>
>.<
<__monty__>
Why didn't they just replace the other one?
<bqv>
i still use hub, tbh. i don't like the new one
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<vika_nezrimaya>
I use GitLab and I'm happy with it. Free CI without confusing stuff (like all these new GitHub Actions), you just write a YAML file and pop it in, and it also works with Docker containers! Also when you push a new branch it automatically gives you a link to create/view a PR
<vika_nezrimaya>
also free container registry and package registry
<vika_nezrimaya>
what not to love?
<vika_nezrimaya>
Oh, right, the fact that you'll have to use public repos to get all of this for free
<__monty__>
Pushing to github also gives you a PR url.
<vika_nezrimaya>
weird, never noticed it
<vika_nezrimaya>
I don't really need CI on my password-store repo, and for my other projects I'm happy to share the source code
<__monty__>
And I think their package repo is free?
<bqv>
i just with for the day we can all just use git directly, over ssh
<vika_nezrimaya>
bqv: me too! we have gitolite tho
<bqv>
the only thing people would miss is PRs and issues, but you can have those with git bug/git appraise
<vika_nezrimaya>
git request-pull | sendmail
<bqv>
also yes :p
<vika_nezrimaya>
also what's git appraise and git bug
<vika_nezrimaya>
so many new Git commands popping lately
<bqv>
they're extension git tools
<bqv>
you can find them on github (/irony)
<bqv>
gitolite. i like this. i will use this.
<vika_nezrimaya>
Also you can just use git init --shared on an SSH-accessible server
<vika_nezrimaya>
and your group will be able to access the repo
<vika_nezrimaya>
everyone else will be able to pull
<bqv>
yeah, i saw, but i don't have anyone else on my server, so doesn't give much :/
* bqv
wonders how different that is to `chmod -R g+rwx .git`
<vika_nezrimaya>
It'll make Git create the new files with a proper umask
<bqv>
ah
<vika_nezrimaya>
yep
<bqv>
i kinda wanna become supreme overlord of the whole planet just so i can ban motorcycles
<bqv>
bane of my life
<bqv>
github really have played their cards right, though. if you want literally any attention at all, your stuff has to be on there, and that means you can't use any alternative hosting
<cransom>
banning motorcycles?
<bqv>
yes, they're awful
<bqv>
i'm autistic and it's not an exaggeration to say they're ruining my life
<__monty__>
I could do with way lower noise limits for music if you have neighbors within earshot...
<cransom>
the people that moved in upstairs, while i have not met them, i've named their child forest. because where he went, he was running. and who has kids that are still up at midnight anyway.
<tazjin>
bqv: idk, I've moved most of my stuff off of Github and it still gets plenty of eyes on it - it depends on your community
<bqv>
and how popular you are :p
<bqv>
i'm a nobody, i rely on being in a search result list for any attention at all
<ScottHDev>
Do you know if a sambanetfs module exists or am I oblige to touch the system files?(I'm trying to mount a samba share as non root)
<tazjin>
bqv: IME there's an uncanny valley of popularity on Github, where you've got enough eyes on things for them to be considered "popular" but you're far away from the activity levels of large projects
<bqv>
> pkgs.smbnetfs
<tazjin>
and when you're in that valley then the "contributions" you get via Github are mostly detrimental
<tazjin>
like, plenty of PRs that are essentially just somebody shuffling some code around to be included in the contributors list ...
<samueldr>
ScottHDev: this is an off-topic channel :) for on-topic NixOS talk it's #nixos
<ScottHDev>
Ok
<bqv>
but i dunno, at least it's a self-esteem boost
<bqv>
someone's remotely interested
* bqv
not ashamed to admit attention whoreship
<samueldr>
(I hate being hardline about nixos support and dev chat here, but otherwise it'll end up making a second class of support into an alternate channel)
<ashkitten>
bqv: :< i want a motorcycle (but not a loud one)
<bqv>
the majority are just painful though.. i know not everyone does it maliciously and some aren't even noisy but the majority ruin it for the minority i reckon
<ashkitten>
i'd really like to get an electric motorcycle but gf says theyre expensive and that gas motorcycles can be just as quiet and efficient
<bqv>
oh, electric ones sound awesome
<joepie91>
tazjin: the worst PRs are "hi, I've set up a linter for you, here's a several-thousand line change commit!" and "hi, I've converted your code to typescript for you!" etc.
<bqv>
in my personal dystopia, those can stay
<ashkitten>
yeah but what i just said about gas ones being able to be quiet and efficient
<ashkitten>
depending on where your electricity comes from i dont doubt a gas motorcycle could be better for the environment than an electric one
<joepie91>
like, if I wanted that, I would have done it...
<joepie91>
I, too, can run a binary on my repo
<bqv>
maybe, but at least with electric ones you're guaranteed not to have that blood-curdling noise that keeps me up at night
<ashkitten>
people who drive noisy vehicles are called assholes, and in some cases criminals
<aleph->
Or poor.
<ashkitten>
poor?
<aleph->
Yeah when I was broke I never had the money to fix shite on my car like my muffler.
<aleph->
Thus it was noisy.
<ashkitten>
hm, that's a reason i didn't consider. thanks
<samueldr>
weirdly enough, people pay more to be noisier than someone that's accidentally noisy through lack of means
<ashkitten>
yes, that's what i meant samueldr
<ashkitten>
some people intentionally remove the muffler
<ashkitten>
which is illegal in some places
<ashkitten>
idk why they would crave negative attention like that
<samueldr>
they probably don't perceive it as negative; and those they know are negative, e.g. by being told so, they see as "haters", probably hating them for who they are
<cransom>
i had to borrow a friends bike who had a missing exhaust (not that he took it off, it was removed via a car turning into his lane). my god a zx10r wihtout exhaust is embarassingly loud.
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<ashkitten>
oof
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<vika_nezrimaya>
,locate bin update-ca-certificates
<vika_nezrimaya>
is this how you do it?...
<{^_^}>
Couldn't find in any packages
<vika_nezrimaya>
yep, looks like it
<vika_nezrimaya>
,locate bin update-ca-trust
<{^_^}>
Couldn't find in any packages
<vika_nezrimaya>
,locate bin trust
<{^_^}>
Found in packages: p11_kit.dev
<makefu>
vika_nezrimaya: you will not use a dedicated package but a system option for this
<eyJhb>
Just wanted ta ask regarding the current mask restrictions :p
<vika_nezrimaya>
Like, in our local regions?
<eyJhb>
Or.. Regulation?
<eyJhb>
Just, it is only required in public places with people, right?
<vika_nezrimaya>
Penza, Russia: no masks required except indoors, the governor STILL never was spotted in a mask
<eyJhb>
E.g. in cities
<vika_nezrimaya>
He ignores HIS OWN mask mandate
<vika_nezrimaya>
typical Russia
<eyJhb>
That's how it usually goes!
<bqv>
vika_nezrimaya: thanks to you i've been calling my partner a discount russian all day
<bqv>
(finland)
<vika_nezrimaya>
explain
<bqv>
you know, finland is next to russia
<bqv>
and kinda seems a bit like russia-lite
<vika_nezrimaya>
why? do they drink vodka?
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<vika_nezrimaya>
do they keep small bears as pets?
<bqv>
lmao, do you?!
<eyJhb>
Vodka yeah
<vika_nezrimaya>
do they have a Supreme Leader who was elected several times in a row and then just set his own previous terms to null and started over?
<bqv>
i mean yeah, it's nowhere near that bad
<eyJhb>
SET term = NUL; ?
<vika_nezrimaya>
bqv: the bears are obviously a joke and I personally don't drink vodka
<eyJhb>
vika_nezrimaya: then you are no russian.
<bqv>
nrn
<bqv>
lol
<eyJhb>
You need to mix beer and vokda as well
<eyJhb>
Else you are voted out
<vika_nezrimaya>
eyJhb: come on I turned 18 like half a year ago
<vika_nezrimaya>
I haven't been drinking too much since then
<eyJhb>
The drinking age is 16 in Denmark :p
<vika_nezrimaya>
it's legal for me to drink but I still have time!
<eyJhb>
Start early
<vika_nezrimaya>
eyJhb: it's 18 in Russia but people just don't give a damn about restrictions
<eyJhb>
Or... No.. The age where you are allowed to buy alchohol is 16..
<eyJhb>
You can drink from the age of 0
<vika_nezrimaya>
been buying people cigaretts and alcohol when I was 16 or 17
<bqv>
same happens here tbh
<vika_nezrimaya>
illegally but nobody has been giving a damn
<bqv>
i gave a 13yo a cigarette once
<eyJhb>
Cigarettes is where I stop, fuck that
<bqv>
i mean it's not like they'll be able to form a habit without going full delinquent, at least i gave them a fun story
<eyJhb>
Don't really like smooking
<vika_nezrimaya>
I just closed off two digits on my date of birth and said "April" when the kiosk staff asked me for the month because they couldn't see it clearly
<vika_nezrimaya>
and they believed me
<eyJhb>
And have been enjoying denying people cigs when I work at a shop
<vika_nezrimaya>
because I looked like I'm freaking 20 or something
<bqv>
lmao
<vika_nezrimaya>
I'm generally looking older than I am
<vika_nezrimaya>
And the fact that I'm trans and was learning to sing since I was small allows me to modify my voice pitch effortlessly from the lowest bass to an almost falcetto
<vika_nezrimaya>
lol
<eyJhb>
When I was 12 something, I called a friend to ask if he could play, and I just said "Can I speak to Noah?" and I hear her yell "Noah there is a 45 year old man who wants to talk to you!"
<eyJhb>
Needless to say, my voice was quite deep.
<colemickens>
another day, another reproducible bug and a company with no fucking contact link
<bqv>
i was gonna ask, whether it's the russian-ness or the trans-ness, lol
<joepie91>
colemickens: I got a Node core bug today
<vika_nezrimaya>
bqv: trans-ness probably, because as a transgender person my voice contrasts with my gender expression and I have to train to make it higher
<bqv>
meh. on the internet, nobody can hear you scream
* colemickens
is calling usps support, please send drugs
<eyJhb>
colemickens: You will get them on Blockchain?
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<worldofpeace>
lol "fnlaai: worldofpeace, hi there are you a hero?" I think someone needs to tell them that I am the hero they're looking for 🤣
<samueldr>
eyJhb: they don't need blockchain, they already deal with chain letters
* samueldr
can finally go back to working
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<makefu>
worldofpeace: not the hero we want but the here we deserve, i guess
<worldofpeace>
makefu: I guess my name is kinda heroic sounding too
<worldofpeace>
hehe, one day I'll be an ancient legend in the nixos history
<makefu>
worldofpeace: no need to wait, you already are!
<worldofpeace>
💕 heh, I guess that's why they left the room. they weren't certain what they heard was true
<makefu>
maybe they are scared, it is not yet said which side you belong to. to achieve a world of piece one way would be to purge everything not peaceful (e.g. the whole of humanity)
<makefu>
peace*
<worldofpeace>
ahh, and that is the misunderstanding I'm always running into. because I'm merciful and still have faith in humanity.
<makefu>
`still`, just wait until your favor runs out!
<worldofpeace>
(but I still embrace the darkness everyone has inside themselves. I must say people are frequently scared of this)
<worldofpeace>
makefu: lol * turns into villain
<worldofpeace>
they haven't seen me angry, yet...
<makefu>
okay i've got to go. see you! and please uphold your faith in humanity!
<worldofpeace>
I've turned #nixos-chat into nixos-role-play
<worldofpeace>
thx makefu
<worldofpeace>
k, I guess that ends this weekly raid. Unless any opponent wishes to challenge me...
<cole-h>
Would be cool if there was an AI Dungeon but via IRC. Though it might get very hectic
<aleph->
bqv: Nice
* colemickens
spies the new development in the epic apple drama
<colemickens>
bqv: i have too many things I'm doing right now but I want to hear about what youre doing with ipfs
<bqv>
same, tbh
<__monty__>
colemickens: Nix-on-Big-Sur or Apple Silicon drama?
<bqv>
i think i described it best the other day. i'm trying to divide my systems files into a few categories: stuff manageable by nix, stuff pinned in ipfs and replicated over my cluster, stuff backed up in vcs repos, and fully ephemeral things in tempfs
<colemickens>
__monty__: Epic Games. Apple is pulling their ability to sign for Mac due to the move Epic pulled.
<colemickens>
bqv: beautiful.
<__monty__>
Oh right, the lawsuit.
<__monty__>
I can hardly see Apple winning this tbh.
<worldofpeace>
okay so, I think I already explained my hands typing the right words is hit or miss sometimes. but it still worked though 😸
<cole-h>
Heheh
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<samueldr>
__monty__: you can hardly see apple winning, but you're seeing it with your end-users eyes
<samueldr>
what this will end up being is, a precedent about how much control an entity has over a walled garden
<samueldr>
it might not even answer the question "can a user run any software they want"
<bqv>
makin history
<samueldr>
what there is to hope, realistically, is that this doesn't end up cementing power into creating walled gardens *according to antitrust laws of the united states*
<__monty__>
It's blatant abuse though.
<samueldr>
is it?
<samueldr>
(yes, as an end-user, I think so)
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<samueldr>
it's not been shown in any way whether this is or not
<samueldr>
while we, as power user minded people, see that the common sense says it's bonkers that the end-user can't do anything they like with their devices
<samueldr>
I'm not sure this holds
<samueldr>
and it's scary
<samueldr>
judgements (if any comes) will tilt the scales
<bqv>
it's Judgement Day
<samueldr>
the google case is clearly different and distinct, and not scary
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<samueldr>
basically, google has forced OEMs not to include third party stores on their devices if they want google play services
<__monty__>
I mean, even hardline capitalists must see that a single company holding back a boatload of companies isn't good for business in general.
<samueldr>
completely different case than with apple's, so it's important not to mix them up
<samueldr>
__monty__: you're not reading hacker news's comments section about this I see :)
<__monty__>
I don't expect relevant voices in the HN comments to be frank.
<samueldr>
I'm mostly thinking here that users there often represent a capitalistic point of view
<samueldr>
but eh, let's just paint them as useless sobs if you prefer
<__monty__>
I hope google's measure bites them in the behind. Having almost everyone get play-less phones. (One can only dream.)
<samueldr>
(I knew bringing the orange site here would be fruitless and bring ad-site-inem attacks)
<__monty__>
You're reading too much into my comment.
<samueldr>
then I don't know what to read about that, other than you're hand-waving the whole userbase off
<__monty__>
HN comments aren't by leading figures at influential companies for the most part. Which are the only voices that might matter afacs.
<__monty__>
*afaics
<samueldr>
I don't think anything on the google's side of things will make OEMs produce play services-less devices; what it might do is bring more (bloat) stores out again though
<__monty__>
You're talking about a google court case? I mean the measures the court case is about.
<samueldr>
epic has two court cases started the same day
<samueldr>
one against apple for the walled garden and rent seeking
<samueldr>
one against google for forcing OEMs into shipping only first-party stores (*their own* app stores) or google's
<samueldr>
s/or google's/and google's/
<samueldr>
epic had approached OnePlus and LG into shipping the epic store on their phones
<__monty__>
Didn't hear about/pay attention to the latter tbh, TIL.
<samueldr>
so "more bloat"
<bqv>
but hang on, what's stopping you from just having the "store" part online, and it linked to an account that you use on the phone?
<bqv>
or is that the crux of the case?
<bqv>
-s
<samueldr>
I don't follow, bqv
<bqv>
well, the store part doesn't have to be part of the app, or app offering
<samueldr>
ah, for in-app purchases?
<bqv>
yeah
<samueldr>
actually it does for apple
<__monty__>
bqv: You can only install apps through the app store though. (on iOS)
<samueldr>
part of their developer agreement
<samueldr>
(I think)
<samueldr>
(might be wrong)
<bqv>
samueldr: ah, ok
<bqv>
i suppose that makes it make sense then
<bqv>
that is quite an overreach for a developer agreement
<samueldr>
hmm... thinking a bit
<samueldr>
no it's not, but in practice it is
<__monty__>
They also take 30% of any subscriptions you offer in-app I believe?
<samueldr>
yes
<samueldr>
of any transaction
<bqv>
yeah that was my point, just have the transactions not occur on the phone
<samueldr>
and you can't skirt around by making another transactional platform cheaper
<samueldr>
but you can provied another if you want
<bqv>
but if that's against terms, then yolo
<samueldr>
btw, everyone's antagonistic in the Apple v. Epic case
<samueldr>
AFAIUI epic has done so in an overtly hostile way, to force the issue
<samueldr>
(which eh, maybe in the end it's not that bad, but still)
<__monty__>
I have no love lost for Epic.
<samueldr>
the best I can hope for, but I don't think it'll end up happening, is that this removes all foundations from under the walls of all walled gardens
<__monty__>
Used to like Apple. But what they've been doing with iOS has to stop.
<__monty__>
That sounds like a pretty unlikely outcome : /
<samueldr>
yeah, but if it were to come it'd be a great precedent for the next walls: "boot walls"
<samueldr>
and conversely, showing that walled gardens are welcomed might be a precedent for "boot walls"
<samueldr>
(where you're forced to boot whatever the maker of the platform decided you shouuld boot)
<__monty__>
Goobapplchov, tear down that wall!
<__monty__>
Keep us up to date on developments? : ) nn, peoples