<Ashy>
i just use juicessh on my phone as a mosh/ssh client to weechat in a screen session on a linode
<cole-h>
edef and tazjin: Your tweets re: reMarkable 2 are making me think about getting it. I want it so bad, but I want to buy so many other things, too....
<drakonis>
i have termux for that
<drakonis>
that looks pretty good
<drakonis>
but does it do colors yet?
<drakonis>
when's color e-ink tablets
<samueldr>
whenever patents that still matters for e-ink start to go away
<samueldr>
since the current holder doesn't seem to care for that much
<samueldr>
that's basically what I've read around the topic
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<drakonis>
hmm, i thought the tech had already advanced to a commercially viable level
<samueldr>
colour e-ink? yes
<samueldr>
but they're not making products for segments end-user care for
<drakonis>
bummer
<drakonis>
oh
<drakonis>
pocketbook's releasing one
<drakonis>
onyx and pocketbook have color e-readers
<drakonis>
i think my parents would pay good money for one of those
<drakonis>
i can pass on the kindle though
<drakonis>
looks like the competion is far superior now
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<drakonis>
i need to get a weechat relay running for my phone
<drakonis>
i'm confused on how to set up the headless weechat service
<Mic92>
Ashy: I am not using phoronix-test-suite a lot these days. Looking at the error output it seems that arguments passed to gcc are double quoted. One way to find out what actually get passed to gcc is to use `sysdig -c proc_exec_time`. There is a nixos module for sysdig.
<drakonis>
ah well, i'll do it tomorrow
<Ashy>
Mic92: ah good idea, execsnoop should be useful too
<Mic92>
Ashy: yes.
<Mic92>
bcc is just sometimes a bit nitpicky on the kernel version
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<LinuxHackerman>
joepie91: yeah but only because that's not mine :D
<MichaelRaskin>
I remember a sustained campaign that lead to the availability of at least rooted versions of PocketBook 912 firmware…
<sphalerite>
wow, I managed to get dnsmasq to segfault… somehow…
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<eyJhb>
sphalerite: ! Ruin the internet!!
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<sphalerite>
eyJhb: not by sending it stuff, only by making a particular mistake in its config
<sphalerite>
why is `date`'s format for the date so awful
<adisbladis>
Probably because unix was created by americans :P
<sphalerite>
adisbladis: it's even worse than the normal american format
<sphalerite>
[MMDDhhmm[[CC]YY][.ss]]
<infinisil>
sphalerite: The default date format must be locale dependent
<infinisil>
Because I get "Sun 09 Aug 2020 02:16:23 PM CEST"
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<manveru>
yeah, `LC_TIME=de_DE.UTF-8 date` is way nicer :)
<adisbladis>
Tss
<adisbladis>
date --iso=seconds
<adisbladis>
iso8601 is the only correct representation ;)
<manveru>
:D
<adisbladis>
Tbh I don't know why we still bother with other formats
<manveru>
`date +'%F %T %z'` is more readable though
<sphalerite>
infinisil: no, the format for setting the date is the same for all
<sphalerite>
the same horrendous format
<sphalerite>
independent of locale
<adisbladis>
manveru: I guess
<adisbladis>
I'd also be fine with iso + spaces
<adisbladis>
Which you can just safely strip when parsing
<manveru>
sphalerite: strange, the format string has no influence at all?
<adisbladis>
ITT: Unix is terrible
<sphalerite>
manveru: that would IMHO make it worse
<sphalerite>
manveru: I think a terrible but consistent format for setting the date is still better than a locale-dependent format for setting the date
<manveru>
hmm, i guess
<adisbladis>
Yeah
<adisbladis>
Locale dependent input is horrible
<adisbladis>
Very easy to accidentally introduce a dependency on the locale you used during development
<manveru>
well, i mean not the locale-dependent part :)
<manveru>
specifying the input format would be superior IMHO
<adisbladis>
manveru: If it was non-optional via CLI I would agree
<adisbladis>
Non-optional but via environment is not good
<sphalerite>
date --year=2020 --month=08 --day=09 --hour=15 --minute=0
<infinisil>
sphalerite: What do you mean setting the format?
<infinisil>
--date accepts pretty much any format
<sphalerite>
infinisil: setting the _date_
<sphalerite>
date --help
<sphalerite>
the second usage
<infinisil>
Oh
<infinisil>
I see, never used date that way
<sphalerite>
I would have used timedatectl set-time because it has a more sophisticated date parser, but it refused because ntp was enabled
<sphalerite>
and I couldn't disable ntp imperatively with timedatectl because nixos x)
* infinisil
wishes systemd wasn't patched to disallow that
<sphalerite>
open a PR :p
<sphalerite>
hm. I think something's wrong here. My chromebook's no longer booting with the latest unstable, and it seems that this is because btrfs is no longer included in the initramfs
<sphalerite>
… even if I add it to boot.kernelModules!?
<sphalerite>
err boot.initrd.kernelModules
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<sphalerite>
fixed it.
<bqv>
My suzyq was dispatched…
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<bqv>
Really gotta make systemd keep restarting my weechat service
<sphalerite>
lol
<manveru>
crystal still takes an hour to compile... really hard to iterate on that :(
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<bqv>
That time I just restarted, tbh
<NinjaTrappeur>
:(
<NinjaTrappeur>
I actually started using this language a bit after reading some of your code :)
<NinjaTrappeur>
seems like a good python replacement for system scripting
<bqv>
Eh, in a sense yeah
<monsieurp>
crystal?
<monsieurp>
looks like ruby
<aleph->
Basically
<aleph->
manveru: adguard almost ready. :) Ah yaml/json generation in nix is lovely
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<eyJhb>
sphalerite: damn...
<sphalerite>
eyJhb: I'm ok with it really.
<eyJhb>
No world domination today?
<sphalerite>
yeah
<sphalerite>
not sure I'd be suitable for it
<eyJhb>
:( Sad panda
<infinisil>
I'm just thinking about music rating/categorization again
<infinisil>
And I'm starting to think that ratings aren't really that useful
<infinisil>
And that maybe the most useful categorization is "I like to listen to these songs when I'm in this mood"
<infinisil>
Or rather mood/time of day/occasion
<infinisil>
And you don't really need ratings for this
<infinisil>
lovesegfault: I know you've been interested in such thoughts before ^
<infinisil>
So I'm thinking: I tell my music program "It's <category> time", e.g. "It's chill time" or "It's party time". Then it randomly plays all songs that haven't been blacklisted for that category. Skipping a song blacklists it
<infinisil>
This gives a very natural interaction and should give you good playlists over time
<sphalerite>
infinisil: or you could do away with the explicit categories and have it determine your mood from what you skip :p
<infinisil>
sphalerite: Hehe yeah, thought of this too, but that gets really tough, needs machine learning and stuff. I'd rather keep it simple and predictable
<LinuxHackerman>
infinisil: but then how will you attract vulture capital?
<infinisil>
Oh damn, didn't even think of that. ML it is!
<infinisil>
But actually, I think ML might not even work for this practically. The main reason being that every person is different, so you can't train something that works for everybody
<infinisil>
And training on every person separately would mean getting a *lot* of input from a single person, which nobody wants to do
<infinisil>
Comparatively, it's relatively easy to tell a program what mood you're in right now
<philipp[m]>
Wow, waiting 30s for dns propagation per default when using a custom script is pretty optimistic by lego.
<bqv>
anyone have experience debugging problems on windows?
<philipp[m]>
Does trauma count as experience?
<bqv>
lmao
<philipp[m]>
Yes! Just managed to generate a cert via dns challenge from the nixos module with my own dns server.
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<sphalerite>
philipp[m]: I think the acme challenge checking servers will always recurse or something like that
<ivan>
bqv: sure
<manveru>
monsieurp: it was heavily inspired by ruby, yeah... it's just statically typed and compiles using llvm :)
<bqv>
ivan: oh ok, my partner's pc has this thing where it freezes gently, every few seconds/minutes. i see a spike of ethernet, cpu and gpu usage at the times, and obviously ui stutters for a bit. how best to debug?
<monsieurp>
manveru: I saw
<monsieurp>
manveru: anything that looks like Ruby, I go "nah let's use Perl instead"
<manveru>
hehe
<monsieurp>
it's unfortunate that Perl has fallen out of use
<manveru>
well, the whole rakudo thing was unfortunate...
<monsieurp>
Perl 5 is still very much alive
<ivan>
bqv: Event Viewer, Process Monitor to see what happens when it spikes, AutoRuns to get rid of unneeded startup tasks
<monsieurp>
they've anounced Perl 7 recently
<manveru>
i know, but it probably won't get that kind of wide adoption again...
<ivan>
bqv: that sometimes happens because of a bad driver that needs downgrading/upgrading/removal
<ivan>
Event Viewer is built-in, the rest are not
<bqv>
ah ok, thanks
<ivan>
devices and drivers can be managed in Device Manager
<ivan>
you can Disable a thing there and see if the problem goes away
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<bqv>
ivan: event viewer seems like a cool plan, but what should i be browsing/looking for?
<ivan>
Windows Logs -> System and see if anything matches the timestamp of a hang
<ivan>
you might get nothing here
<bqv>
hmm, yeah, nothing much
<bqv>
rt
<bqv>
ok, apparently the problem seems to be the graphics card
<bqv>
cause the two things it's flagged are directX and nvidia kernel mode driver
<infinisil>
As cool things as Mark Rober does, this irks me a bit:
<infinisil>
He tested positive for corona, then beat it, then wanted to fly to the bahamas (for an experiment)
<infinisil>
But they wouldn't let him commercially because corona in the US (which makes a lot of sense)
<infinisil>
So he *rents a private jet* to fly there..
<ashkitten>
eat the rich
<bqv>
good god
<infinisil>
Great, he found a loophole for those who have money (or those who are popular, I'm not even sure if he actually rented it)
<infinisil>
But maybe, those restrictions are in place for a reason
<bqv>
that's incredibly upsetting (though not sure it'd push me to cannibalism :|)
<ashkitten>
metaphorically though
<infinisil>
And in the video he proudly mentions how he found this loophole
<ashkitten>
you shouldn't actually eat the rich, it'd just serve to concentrate their wealth further. instead, distribute their bodies throughout a massive area of land so you don't introduce too many heavy metals into the soil in one place
<infinisil>
I think rich people are fine, and idiots are fine too. But what's not fine is rich idiots
<infinisil>
Also works with s/rich/powerful, s/idiot/heartless, etc.
* joepie91
does not think rich people are fine
<infinisil>
joepie91: I think Bill Gates is a great example of a rich person I'm totally fine with
<joepie91>
philantropy is a poor stand-in for driving systemic wealth inequality
<ashkitten>
i'm not totally fine with him
<ashkitten>
^
<joepie91>
err, for avoiding*
<infinisil>
Well I guess he doesn't need *that* much money
<joepie91>
that someone is able to get that rich to begin with, points at some pretty serious issues
<infinisil>
But at least he uses a big part of it to do good in the world
<MichaelRaskin>
I mean, approximately all of this was obtained by doing significant damage to the entire computing landscape…
<joepie91>
to put it bluntly: that is basically saying "yeah, he stole from society, but at least he gave 80% of it back"
<joepie91>
it doesn't excuse or justify the remaining 20%
<joepie91>
but it sure does look a lot better in the spotlight than just stealing 20% and giving back none
<infinisil>
He stole what?
<joepie91>
even though the end result is ~the same
<infinisil>
And from who?
<ashkitten>
when people talk about business executives stealing money it's usually from the workers
<joepie91>
I did say "bluntly". here, "stole" is shorthand for "caused societal damage, accumulated wealth therefore not available to others, etc."
<MichaelRaskin>
Also, approximately his entire career is commons destruction by monopoly abuse?
<ashkitten>
people deserve the whole fruit of their labor
<infinisil>
Hm yeah maybe the way he got so much wealth wasn't entirely justified
<ashkitten>
i'm not sure what way you could justify any accumulation of that sort of wealth. i agree with joepie91 that anyone having that much money is indicative of bigger issues
<joepie91>
there's a whole host of - usually subtle and hard-to-define - ways in which rich people have taken from society, and it's much easier to shorthand this to "stole" than to write half a novel of socioeconomic theory every other sentence :)
<infinisil>
I'm not sure, it's hard for me to believe there's no ethical way to get rich
<ashkitten>
infinisil: the entire way our economic system is designed means there is no ethical way to be rich
<MichaelRaskin>
I think the larger the fortune, the closer it is to certainty that there are some clearly condemnable acts involved
<infinisil>
ashkitten: By "our" you mean america?
<ashkitten>
infinisil: i mean capitalism in general, lol
<ashkitten>
the economic system of all major countries
<joepie91>
infinisil: a better question to ask is: why *would* there be an ethical way to accumulate that much money? consider that "rich" basically means "having an extremely outsized amount of wealth compared to the majority of the population", which *by necessity* means that it is a status reserved for a small group of people. in that situation, you pretty much automatically end up with "one gets rich through being at the top of a
<joepie91>
hierarchy", which is unethical
<infinisil>
I see
<samueldr>
(side-tangent) I really love when "capitalist" apologists try to describe communism and end up describing capitalism instead
<infinisil>
Hm so maybe we should differentiate between being rich and making a lot of money
<samueldr>
(or try to describe some form of socialism)
<infinisil>
I believe you can make a lot of money ethically, but you can spend that for good causes right away, making you not be rich
<joepie91>
infinisil: "making a lot of money" still has the same property (heh) - "a lot" is a relative term
<samueldr>
sometimes we need perspective, like, what's a million compared to a billion?
<joepie91>
if everyone makes a lot of money, then noone does
<samueldr>
about a billion
<infinisil>
And e.g. making a lot of money from selling something in first-world countries and giving it to third-world countries sounds very robin-hoody to me
<joepie91>
and it is difficult to imagine an ethical way to earn money which is not also widely and ~equally accessible
<joepie91>
samueldr: seen Tom Scott's video?
<samueldr>
yep
<joepie91>
("there's a Tom Scott video about that" is the new "there's an xckd about that")
<infinisil>
I mean sure, not everybody can make a lot of money, it has to balance out, but it's unrealistic for 7 billion people to all have ~equal pay
<joepie91>
infinisil: why would it be unrealistic?
<ashkitten>
unrealistic under capitalism yeah, lol
<samueldr>
the phrase I'm using is something I learned from before that video, which is a succint way to say "a million is basically nothing compared to a billion"
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<infinisil>
joepie91: Think of the state our world is in currently. How could you change that so everybody had equal pay?
<joepie91>
I mean, yeah, sure, "under capitalism" it is unrealistic, but I'm assuming you mean inherently
<joepie91>
samueldr: heh
<samueldr>
it needs radical societal changes *even* if the desire for equal pay isn't part of it
<MichaelRaskin>
Increase rop bracket tax under the threat of complete collapse of society?
<infinisil>
Hm so if we could create a new "perfect" world, would it be realistic for everybody to have the same income?
<samueldr>
in a perfect world there would be no income
<ashkitten>
i don't see why there needs to be income
<infinisil>
Hm
<MichaelRaskin>
Compared to the current state, 100x range is _still_ roughly equal income, BTW.
<infinisil>
Are there any studies that show how a world would work without income?
<ashkitten>
people shouldn't have to pay to survive
<samueldr>
MichaelRaskin: yeah, in the current system, even reducing the gap to get in much fewer magnitudes would make astronomical changes in the lives of everyone
<infinisil>
Because work still needs to be done, unless everything is automated
<samueldr>
I believe income may be a way to work around an inherent flaw of human beings, so it might only be a pipe dream
<MichaelRaskin>
Not really immediately astronomical. But huge changes in dynamics
<samueldr>
MichaelRaskin: I might have smaller astronomics than you do :)
<ashkitten>
infinisil: why wouldn't there be work done? it's not like people don't like doing things
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<MichaelRaskin>
I would say that the work currently rewarded above 20x could easily be done with 50x cap.
<infinisil>
ashkitten: Do _you_ want to work in the sewer system?
<samueldr>
and even under capitalism, it is my opinion that "lowering the unemployment rate" is a bad thing; jobs should be systematically reduced and automated
<MichaelRaskin>
infinisil: note that this is the work rewarded at median…
<__monty__>
infinisil: I probably would if I lived in a city without one at all : )
<infinisil>
MichaelRaskin: Not sure what you mean
<__monty__>
infinisil: Also consider that people can still show gratitude even if they don't need to pay the plumber.
<ashkitten>
infinisil: me personally? no. i have other issues that keep me from working. but i could envision a future where workers are praised and rewarded for providing necessary services, instead of people with cushier jobs looking down on them as lesser
<infinisil>
I'm no psochology export, but I doubt that could work
<infinisil>
expert*
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<__monty__>
That's probably how societies started though?
<ashkitten>
infinisil: there are already communes that work like this, though
<__monty__>
Someone was better at hitting flint, did some people a favor.
<ashkitten>
either way, even if we don't eradicate the exchange of wealth entirely it would be significantly better if people didn't have to work just to be allowed to survive
<MichaelRaskin>
infinisil: your example seems to be of work that might require _some_ income difference to be filled reliably, but not a large one
<infinisil>
I mean I'm totally in favor of e.g. a basic income to not have to work to survive
<ashkitten>
"basic income" isn't what i said
<infinisil>
But I highly doubt abandoning money/income completely can work
<__monty__>
The Zeitgeist Movement has a pretty good collection of essays on how a post-wealth world might work btw.
<infinisil>
ashkitten: Yeah, I'm just mentioning it as an alternative solution
<ashkitten>
destroy landlords, make food free and highly available
<ashkitten>
destroy landlords again just to be sure
<MichaelRaskin>
ashkitten: why _destroy_ them? Isn't it enough to make sure they are not landlords anymore?
<ashkitten>
make anything anyone might need to survive free and highly available, including all medical and social services and internet
<ashkitten>
MichaelRaskin: not literal
<MichaelRaskin>
ashkitten: you see, there are precedents of «destroying X as a class» suddenly getting post-reinterpreted as destruction of every former member of X (instead of complete exclusion of the corresponding economic role)
<ashkitten>
yeah
<ashkitten>
didn't mean it that way
<infinisil>
This reminds me of when Bernie wrote a book, made like a million through selling it, then got complaints about him being a millionaire
<ashkitten>
honestly being a millionaire is nothing
<ashkitten>
compared to basically every ceo
<ashkitten>
having a million dollars is... being able to afford a house
<ashkitten>
which is something everyone should have
<infinisil>
ashkitten: CEO from big companies you mean
<ashkitten>
sure, whatever
<ashkitten>
company doesn't need to be that big
<ashkitten>
depends how shitty the ceo is, i guess. how much they steal from the workers
<__monty__>
Homes are 1M USD in the US? o.O
<ashkitten>
depends where you live
<ashkitten>
but they can be up there
<infinisil>
If I wanna be cheeky I could even call myself a CEO because I have a one-man company lol (had to make one for contract work)
<ashkitten>
you know that's not what i meant
<__monty__>
Hmm, can you be a chief if you're solo?
<crazazy[m]>
sounds kind of like those "im my own boss!" mlm ladies tbh
<samueldr>
crazazy[m]: the difference is that in MLM you actually answer to someone else
<crazazy[m]>
true
<infinisil>
Related: I'm doubtful we can ever have nice things because of the huge amount of jerks in the world
<__monty__>
infinisil: Without money there's less incentive to be a jerk though.
<infinisil>
I guess yeah
<__monty__>
Like, you wouldn't hoard fruit past what you can consume because that's just more work cleaning up the organic waste.
<infinisil>
Maybe we'll see the jerk-gene die out over many generations
<infinisil>
Or maybe it's in balance with the non-jerk-gene
<MichaelRaskin>
Unlikely, and also creates interesting ecosystem-scale risks.
<MichaelRaskin>
(the die-out case)
<infinisil>
MichaelRaskin: Those ar?
<infinisil>
e
<MichaelRaskin>
But maybe we should not make following its drives to the max be the most respected and comfortable positions in society
<MichaelRaskin>
infinisil: well, today you get rid of jerks, tomorrow you lose people who argue over minor details just for fun, the day after tomorrow you cannot have a thing nitpicked even if it needs to be
<infinisil>
That sounds slippery-slopey
<ashkitten>
yeah im gonna call logical fallacy on that
<infinisil>
You can have fun and nitpick things without being a jerk
<MichaelRaskin>
I mean, literal gene fixation often goes off the slippery slope
<ashkitten>
i think the genetics thing was a metaphor
<ar>
infinisil: this ar
<ashkitten>
literal eugenics is always immoral, clearly
<MichaelRaskin>
But as I said, maybe if we do not incentivise being a jerk to the max, we can have jerk-genotype express as a more reasonable phenotype
<MichaelRaskin>
Wait what?
<infinisil>
Yeah the genetics was just a metaphor
<MichaelRaskin>
I mean, there are a lot of genes that would be a good idea to just edit out of human genome…
<MichaelRaskin>
(hemophilia and the like)
<infinisil>
I believe jerkness doesn't have much to do with genes, but rather with how you grow up and your experiences in life
<ashkitten>
and you'd do that how? by killing or forcibly sterilizing people with that gene? the nazis already tried that one (and weren't the first)
<ashkitten>
(or the last!)
<MichaelRaskin>
ashkitten: better, of course, crispr. Failing that, IVF and embryo selection services for carriers
<__monty__>
Hmm, is hemophilia healthy for heart and brain, like aspirin?
<ashkitten>
MichaelRaskin: there are other philosophical issues with that, but regardless we can't have that until after capitalism dies
<MichaelRaskin>
The problem is: this is a single mutated fragment, and half the male children of a female carrier will be quite unhealthy
<ashkitten>
frankly we have more pressing issues than solving genetic diseases at the moment
<ashkitten>
like racism
<MichaelRaskin>
ashkitten: IVF+selection you can have at a level of Denmark, once people stop arguing for things like illness being a net good instead of a hard problem, etc.
<ashkitten>
i don't want to talk about this, actually
<bqv>
is there a way i can have a file tree mounted with no permissions?
<bqv>
like, i want to have a directory that can we r/w by anyone, even if the permissions of the files aren't so
<immae>
same as /tmp ?
<bqv>
that's not true of /tmp, is it?
<bqv>
i can have private directories in /tmp
<immae>
Oh you want it recursively
<bqv>
yes
<__monty__>
Sounds setuid-ish
<bqv>
ehh, really?
<immae>
You can mount it for a given user with bindfs
<bqv>
yeah, i saw that, was wondering if there was much else
<immae>
(it would end in another location thoguh)
<immae>
otherwise you can make it 777 and add facl to keep the rights for new files
<bqv>
facl?
<bqv>
how does that work?
<immae>
man setfacl
<immae>
(the name would be acl)
<immae>
I know you can set a flag on a directory with that to say "add same rights for files created in there"
<bqv>
i'm not sure how this quite works
<immae>
Hold on
<bqv>
it looks more like just an extra perm setting
<eyJhb>
Sticky bits, right?
<eyJhb>
(they are no fun)
<immae>
bqv: yes but there is a special perm in it which says "whatever you create in there needs to have the same rights as myself"
<eyJhb>
But can't you just chown them to root, and then have a users/none group
<eyJhb>
Then they can't change permsissions? Dunno
<immae>
no because whatever you create in the directory will belong to the creator
<immae>
(although I’m not sure the creator would be forbidden from changing acl too)
<immae>
maybe you need to assume good will from your user in both cases
<immae>
(but the ACL makes it transparent to the user)
<bqv>
interesting
<bqv>
yeah it sounds like i want an acl
<bqv>
this is so confusing, so do i need to use a group and setgid for it to work?
<joepie91>
infinisil: sorry for dropping out of the discussion, got a phone call :P
<joepie91>
infinisil: much has been covered already from a skim, but this bit hasn't I think: don't underestimate the amount of people who are happy to do "shitty" jobs
<joepie91>
this is the case even in a highly-scaled society like we live in today (even just personally I've talked to people who love doing cleaning, and people who love doing curbside garbage collection), and even moreso in a non-highly-scaled, more closely-knit community, where there is more shared sense of responsibility
<joepie91>
the scaledness of society is largely a result of economic forces, and it is one of the many many aspects of society that would likely change in a situation where income is not a factor
<joepie91>
and once a community descales, a lot changes
<infinisil>
Descales means?
<joepie91>
scaling down, reducing back to more tightly-knit communities
<joepie91>
(I am trying to avoid the word "deglobalization" here because that's been kinda coopted by nazis)
<infinisil>
Ah, so more smaller towns instead of big cities
<joepie91>
infinisil: that is a likely consequence but not a necessary component; small tightly-knit communities can exist in close proximity, like in cities
<joepie91>
it's more about socioeconomic relations
<infinisil>
I see
<joepie91>
less concentration of wealth means less centralization of employment at global organizations, for example
<joepie91>
and will mean more local work
<joepie91>
for/with local people
<joepie91>
and once a shared space is actually owned by and serving the people who live in it, rather than being rented out to them and maintained by some massive faceless organization, people will naturally start taking more responsibility for it, putting in more work for the shitty jobs even if they don't necessarily like the job itself, etc.
<joepie91>
for a concrete example of this, compare current-gen social networks with the forums that came before them
<joepie91>
the reason social networks are a mismoderation hellhole is because noone takes intrinsic responsibility for keeping it a nice place
<joepie91>
it's a massive, faceless, amorphous pile of "stuff" and people that noone can really call their own, they are just existing there because $techCompany lets them, so why would anyone bother investing into metaphorically decorating and cleaning up the place?
<samueldr>
they might not even be given the tools to!
<joepie91>
yet forums, for all of their social struggles and power conflicts etc., generally have a base of dedicated users that may not even have any formal permissions, but who still put in the work to chase out the assholes, keep the place nice, keep the culture intact, build culture around it (fanart etc.), and so on
<joepie91>
it's basically the same mechanic at play
<joepie91>
infinisil: also, it's probably not a surprise that I am not a fan of "global" social networks :OP
<joepie91>
:P*
<__monty__>
Like freenode? : )
<joepie91>
nah, not like Freenode
<joepie91>
I mean the type of social network that tries to connect everyone everywhere in a single namespace - even federated things kinda suffer from this
<joepie91>
the saving grace being server blocks
<joepie91>
the inability to 'cordon off' a community and make it your own space is something that's not being talked about anywhere near enough, IMO
<infinisil>
joepie91: what about email
<joepie91>
infinisil: e-mail has global addressability but is not a community
<joepie91>
nor tries to be one
<joepie91>
you're not "on e-mail" like you're "on Facebook"
<joepie91>
like, you can think of Facebook or a forum as a "virtual place", but e-mail or HTTP isn't a place, it's a "system"
<joepie91>
and it's the combination of being a place + having global scale that causes the problem :)
<joepie91>
such places are, quite literally, impossible to moderate
<infinisil>
Hm I see what you mean
<infinisil>
joepie91: What's your opinion on e.g. mastodon then?
<infinisil>
Currently at least, most people seem to be on the matrix.org homeserver, which isn't very decentralized in the end
<bqv>
oh my god, acl is gonna drive me insane
<bqv>
i have no idea how this works
<joepie91>
do you mean matrix or mastodon? :)
<bqv>
infinisil: every time i raise this, people cry out that matrix is very decentralised, but i've yet to see valid proof of that
<infinisil>
joepie91: mastodon
<joepie91>
infinisil: then I am unsure why you're mentioning matrix.org?
<infinisil>
Oh
<infinisil>
Haha yeah, I had mastodon in mind at least
<infinisil>
Not sure if mastodon has most users on a single server actually
<joepie91>
bqv: even the Matrix core devs publicly say that it's nowhere near as decentralized as it should eventually become, so I'm not sure who is telling you that :P
<bqv>
mastodon actually is really decentralised, at least by comparison to almost any other federated protocol
<joepie91>
infinisil: Mastodon userbase is much more distributed than that of Matrix I think
<bqv>
joepie91: matrix users :|
<joepie91>
infinisil: anyway, my opinions on Mastodon are mixed. it has bits of both. on the one hand it tries to be a single globally-connected "place", which is a problem, on the other hand instance blocks are a thing (that is being used to effect) and instances are fairly visually customizable, which allows more of a cordoned-off community thing
<joepie91>
it's up in the air how it's going to turn out, I think, but at least blocking instances seems - for now anyway - culturally accepted, which is important
<joepie91>
if it develops as "a bunch of microblogging communities that can interact", I think things will turn out fine. if it develops as "a global twitter alternative and you can use your own server", not so much.
<ashkitten>
i don't like federated social media. i think it gives more power to instance admins and not enough to actual users
<ashkitten>
it has the same issue as twitter but on a smaller scale
<bqv>
would you rather they existed, and ate away at twitter's hegemony, or they didn't exist, and twitter reigned forever?
<ashkitten>
i would rather none of it existed
<ashkitten>
and maybe be replaced by fully decentralized communities
<ashkitten>
facebook and twitter don't really work like the things they claimed to replace
<bqv>
idealism will get you nowhere :p
<infinisil>
ashkitten: Don't quote me, but I think the point of instances is exactly that they can be moderated (if needed) and blocked and stuff
<infinisil>
Because some moderation is probably needed
<ashkitten>
infinisil: i guess, but you can also do that with full decentralization
<ashkitten>
users can moderate their own experience, share their moderation actions with others
<joepie91>
full decentralization is highly technically complex though
<ashkitten>
nothing about what i've just stated is simple
<ashkitten>
but i think it would be better
<infinisil>
Actually I think the point of instances is that people don't have to be online all the time to receive messages
<infinisil>
Or participate in mastodon's case
<joepie91>
infinisil: in principle that is possible with a fully decentralized system also, just very difficult
<ashkitten>
all of these are technically complex but solveable
<ashkitten>
and i'm not saying any of it is easy
<joepie91>
as you have to work out an untrusted persistence model
<infinisil>
solvable only theoretically or also practically?
<ashkitten>
mixnets are quite practical
<ashkitten>
and dead drops
<infinisil>
ashkitten: "dead drops"?
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<__monty__>
infinisil: It's not so hard in theory. We both would like to be available for messages more than we can be, we agree on keeping messages for eachother. As long as we rendezvous it works. You don't actually need too big a network for this to be practical imo. (I'm glossing over the messages being encrypted to avoid eavesdropping/manipulation etc.)
<infinisil>
That does sound very hard
<__monty__>
It does?
<__monty__>
There's already IRC bots that basically do a flawed version of this. Pretty sure you run one : p
<infinisil>
IRC bouncers only work for people who have a server that's always online
<ashkitten>
dead drops are pre-arranged places you put things where the other person will know to check it later
<__monty__>
Not talking about bncs.
<ashkitten>
my understanding is that for a dead drop to be secure you can't reuse it more than once ever, and nobody should be able to tell if you're checking the dead drop or putting something in it. don't remember if that's correct
<__monty__>
Talking about ,tell but also bots that automatically relay messages when offline nicks are mentioned.
<ashkitten>
Irenes[m] is my go-to for asking about privacy things
<infinisil>
__monty__: Ah I see
<infinisil>
__monty__: But that's then not centralized anymore
<infinisil>
I guess that's the flawed part
<infinisil>
Or one of them
<__monty__>
infinisil: The flawed part is the bot not really having an incentive to participate or be honest at all.
<__monty__>
In a distributed network the incentive could be you want others to provide you the same service.
<infinisil>
Hm I see
<infinisil>
Yeah I guess this would be interesting to see in practice
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<Ashy>
secure scuttlebutt is quite interesting along those lines
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<__monty__>
The pubs make it close to a federated model though.
Peetz0r is now known as Peetwin
<Ashy>
basically a blockchain of blog posts signed by your key, you follow people's public keys (including some rendezvous servers) and can update asynchronously even via sneakernet
Peetwin is now known as Peetz0r
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<ashkitten>
i would disagree with the pubs making ssb more like a federation
<ashkitten>
they serve to connect users and nothing else
<ashkitten>
they dont give pub admins more power than anyone else
<ashkitten>
also, being connected to a pub is not a requirement, nor do you have to be connected only to a single pub
<ashkitten>
and the pubs don't have much to do with what communities form
<bqv>
if ssb ever gets popular, i'd love it
<bqv>
but it won't
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<Irenes[m]>
I was pinged, was there a specific question?
<samueldr>
only praise
<samueldr>
(and the desire for you to join in the discussion I guess, but the occasion is gone)
<bqv>
i think i'll just set up an exfat partition
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<bqv>
cut my losses
<bqv>
oh, why don't i just use a subvolume, and umask