<ar>
those who complain about autotools have never worked with scons
<srhb>
"Leitfaden" ?
<ar>
"Die"
<srhb>
oh, guideline
<srhb>
my german is very rusty.
<LinuxHackerman>
<ar "those who complain about autotoo"> I have worked with scons and don't think it's so bad that it precludes complaining about autotools :p
<ar>
LinuxHackerman: have you attempted to crosscompile anything using scons?
<LinuxHackerman>
I'm not sure I have, but I can imagine it's awful
<LinuxHackerman>
Oh yeah I might have rewritten endless-sky's build in cmake to be able to cross-compile it
<LinuxHackerman>
Not sure
<eyJhb>
What do you mean srhb ! In school it sounded like we would use it every day
<srhb>
I skipped most of that. :p
<eyJhb>
I hated the german classes, tried to skip most. I can understand some, but didn't reallly feel like I needed it. The most I ever need german, is when I shop on ebay.de...
<eyJhb>
So I feel you! :p
<eyJhb>
Always forget when it is weekend atm. during the summer
<eyJhb>
Also during re-exam period...
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<manveru>
i wonder if anyone has used nix/recursive-nix to implement a whole build process... and how much slower that is :)
<manveru>
so the new evil master plan would be: 1) write wildly successful program 2) only use nix for building it 3) instant world-wide nix adoption 4) $$$
<sphalerite>
manveru: one problem with that is that for that you generally need to use IFD, duplicate dependency specifications, or end up having a tool that needs to be run separately from nix to determine dependencies and then generate nix files.
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<bqv>
manveru: I did a build process in nix
<bqv>
Didn't need ifd
<bqv>
See matrix-construct
<bqv>
I did it cause autotools was making me want to cry
<sphalerite>
bqv: oh, hm! But it's not incremental at all, i.e. modifying one file will result in everything needing to be rebuilt
<sphalerite>
or am I missing something?
<bqv>
sphalerite: it won't recompile them all unless you modify a header, but it will relink them
<bqv>
I made the src a linkfarm of fixed output drvs
<bqv>
So its a little more resilient to change
<bqv>
Either way yeah its rudimentary as hell, but for the purposes it works
<sphalerite>
bqv: really? Because something like "${source}/matrix/${ccFile}" will mean that no matter which file in source changes, all commands using this will be affected…
<bqv>
Huh, maybe I fucked it up somewhere down the line…
<bqv>
I never actually tested that part, tbh, cause almost all actual updates do modify a header anyway, heh
<sphalerite>
though yeah, now that I think about it this should be possible
<sphalerite>
at least for C/C++
<sphalerite>
where you have the whole header/implementation separation thing
<sphalerite>
not so much for Rust, since the interface and its implementation are in the same file
<sphalerite>
or Java
<sphalerite>
well, most languages I know of really.
<bqv>
Yeah
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<bqv>
oh god, someone forked my config
<bqv>
god help them
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<aleph->
Heh
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<eyJhb>
bqv: did you unfuck your sda?
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<eyJhb>
... I hate you sometimes bqv :p
<eyJhb>
Did you get the above? `bqv: did you unfuck your sda?`
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<bqv>
eyJhb: lol
<bqv>
yes i saw it, it didn't highlight me though
<bqv>
and yes, i unfucked it
<bqv>
well, that is to say, i just recreated my nix store
<sphalerite>
but you don't know what else it trashed :D
<bqv>
btrfs has the cool feature of creating a filesystem with a specific uuid
<bqv>
sphalerite: my store GC's itself twice a day, anything not in config doesn't matter :p
<pie_>
hmm. after thinking about it for 2 minutes...browsers are going to actually replace operating systems arent they? :P
<pie_>
or OS are going to start implementing browser standards
<bqv>
though, my user profile had 4 or so apps in it
<bqv>
rip
<pie_>
everybody papering over platform incompatibilities
<bqv>
pie_: oh no
<eyJhb>
You timed out right after I sent it bqv :p
<eyJhb>
Might be why no highlight
<eyJhb>
Also, pie_ I don't fucking hope so
<eyJhb>
But for normal people they already somewhat have
<pie_>
idk, this is todays "shower thought"
<bqv>
eyJhb: lol, but the other me was here
<sphalerite>
bqv: and your /home?
<bqv>
sphalerite: different drive
<bqv>
i keep /nix on it's own drive
<pie_>
joepie91: arent economic forces going to take us that way? (see my comment above)
<pie_>
im just uninformed
<pie_>
tbf isnt chromeos basically an (successful?) attempt at this
<pie_>
but i think im going a bit further
<pie_>
(on that note i could really use a real shower...)
<pie_>
hey, once we get rust in the linux kernel you can just put Servo in there right? :P
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<bqv>
pie_: BAD
<drakonis>
the prodigal son returns.
<drakonis>
nixos is back to my machine
<bqv>
who me?
<bqv>
yeah
<bqv>
i fixed it
<sphalerite>
drakonis: wait, didn't you say that yesterday already? :p
<drakonis>
i messed it up yesterday
<bqv>
lol
<sphalerite>
adisbladis: huh, I have a xiaomi a1 and the bluetooth range is fine for me?
<bqv>
sphalerite: so, i got distracted yesterday by nuking my disk, but uh, i've removed the write protect screw, now i need to get into cr50, whatever that is
<bqv>
how do i go about that?
<bqv>
i googled a bit but there wasn't much instruction
<eyJhb>
drakonis: full NixOS again?
<drakonis>
yes
<eyJhb>
Who was it that wanted Hannah Montana Linux?
<eyJhb>
Or rather, not wanted it?
<sphalerite>
bqv: first of all enable developer mode
<bqv>
done :)
<sphalerite>
bqv: then you attach your suzyqable and uuuuuh
<sphalerite>
try just running picocom on the various ttyUSB devices that appear
<bqv>
ah, yes, my suzyqable
<bqv>
that definitely exists
<sphalerite>
oh lol
<sphalerite>
ok in that case flashing is going to be scary because you have no way of recovering if it goes wrong :p
<bqv>
but i can still set gbb flags or what you were saying yesterday, can't i?
<sphalerite>
that's still flashing
<bqv>
oh :/
<bqv>
hmm
<bqv>
ok guess i'll be buying one of those goddamn cables
<sphalerite>
it is fairly low-risk flashing though
<bqv>
i'm up for it, tbh
<sphalerite>
so you can basically ask yourself the question: are you ok with waiting for a cable to arrive if it goes wrong?
<bqv>
just want to nuke the developer mode screen from orbit, and make it so i can boot a usb
<samueldr>
sphalerite: flashing gbb flags is mostly safe
<bqv>
yes, i'm very ok with that
<samueldr>
it only touches a "partition" on the SPI flash instead of reflashing it entirely IIRC
<samueldr>
so even if it somehow failed, it should keep the whole depthcharge working
<bqv>
i still can't set gbb yet, because i haven't done the cr50 thing
<colemickens>
People said it was pretty reasonable that the Google home devices would only listen to their trigger word. And here we are two short years later.
<colemickens>
I'm not sure it needs any, is my point.
<colemickens>
samueldr: I linked it intentionally, I figured most people know how to find the story link
<samueldr>
I found that on hacker news the UX is terrible enough that many people not already used to it can't :/
<samueldr>
or, more to the point, don't realize there is a parent
<samueldr>
like, just now, I thought I had the top-most parent link
<colemickens>
good point to remember, lucky them for not knowing ;)
<samueldr>
and uh, that comment about sending deepfake porn is... I don't know how to put it, really not good in any way?
<samueldr>
like, the accidental stuff is probably worse than the devious improbable scenarios imo
<colemickens>
Yeah, "inadvertent" reminder :P
<colemickens>
Yeah "oops we shipped listening code" is just as bad. And when paired with stuff like this.
<colemickens>
Reminds me of "oops Google Photos accidentally mis-shared some albums for a while" ... 12-18-24 months ago-ish.
<samueldr>
I believe we should be more scared about accidental incompetence than malicious intent at this point; except if you're a high value target
<samueldr>
and I say that because it's been shown that it happens with incompetence
* colemickens
maybe my love for Nix(OS) is really about control / transparency
<samueldr>
probably
<samueldr>
at least for me it is :)
<samueldr>
I don't care that you run proprietary stuff with Nix and NixOS, more power to you if you do
<samueldr>
but I care that you were able to do it
<samueldr>
it's important to leave the end-user empowered
<pie_>
what im nuts about is control over information flow
<samueldr>
even if it doesn't align with my personal beliefs
<colemickens>
samueldr: heh, I feel like you're touching on a topic. (one that I haven't really sorted my thoughts out on)
<bqv>
oh, fuck
<pie_>
which is why android drives me low key batshit
<bqv>
apparently i can just disable the battery to disable write protect
<pie_>
and yet here i am using my phone...
<colemickens>
bqv: isn't that a small nightmare on some chromebooks tho?
<samueldr>
like, computers, I don't care that the end-user can run a non-free OS like Windows, but I find it's important to leave the user empowered to install what they desire _in a safe manner_
<__monty__>
bqv: I remember someone saying that yesterday.
<samueldr>
bqv: it's actually unclear for your specific model if it's enough
<bqv>
samueldr: i've taken the screw out too
<samueldr>
right
<bqv>
worth a try?
<samueldr>
some models you can _just_ remove the battery, but IIRC gru-bob requires the wp screw removed _too_
<bqv>
cause i don't have a servo/suzyQ
<bqv>
ah ok
<samueldr>
you should be able to unlock without a servo/suzyQ IIRC?
<colemickens>
samueldr: I feel one might argue that "a safe manner" doesn't exist with proprietary software. But I think I would simply argue that the user should have the right to make unsafe choices. (But then I _also_ understand stewards wanting to guide people towards safety.)
<samueldr>
I might be wrong, but I remember the cr50 unlock steps can happen on the device too?
<bqv>
i have no idea how
<colemickens>
I just searched "gru-bob" and tons of those annoying yellow things came up.
<bqv>
oh, the ccd thing
<samueldr>
colemickens: safe in experimentation sense, that you're not going to accidentally wipe the bootloader from the device
<samueldr>
colemickens: do you get the distinction, not necessarily safe as in trustable, but safe as in generally-brick-proof
<samueldr>
colemickens: like, on most android devices, you can trivially brick them by touching the partition map or `dd`-ing at the wrong location
<bqv>
oh my god
<bqv>
ok so this is the power button thing
<samueldr>
colemickens: and once that is done, no way to recover *officially*
<colemickens>
samueldr: still thinking. trying to scope the conversation; I'm thinking of a very different kind of trust.
<bqv>
i'll see you in 3 minutes
<samueldr>
bqv: make it ~10, since you're maybe going to goof up the first time :)
<samueldr>
colemickens: yeah, that is tangential and mostly can be decoupled one from the other
<bqv>
oh god
<colemickens>
I'm more worried about... remember the Steam bug where an unset bash var deleted homedir data? Imagine that, but instead it's Discord uploading it's application logs, and instead uploading $HOME in the background.
<samueldr>
bqv: don't be alarmed, once it finishes, the last press will ABRUPTLY shutdown the device
<samueldr>
bqv: in that case it's most likely a success!
<colemickens>
samueldr: (tbh I thought you were making a subtle comment about distros that take a strong stance on free software)
<samueldr>
colemickens: also
<samueldr>
free software zealots are on the same space imo, to safe-to-tinker-with hardware
<samueldr>
the big difference is that they are in some kind of weird second dimension, where some want to forbid interaction with "unsavoury" bits and bytes
<colemickens>
I still feel like there's a few things getting mixed there. Let me give an example.
<colemickens>
Shouldn't "full access to hw" (not htat you said that) also mean freedom to brick it if I don't know what I'm doing?
<colemickens>
Does my right to access to HW obligate someone else to build a platform to keep me from shooting myself in the foot?
<bqv>
samueldr: uh, am i missing something, holding power just turns it off instantly :|
<bqv>
i thought maybe it's cause i had to do it in vt2 but it still does that
<samueldr>
you shouldn't hold power, just press it once
<bqv>
oh
<bqv>
oh for..
<bqv>
each time?
<samueldr>
yes
<bqv>
for each line?!
<samueldr>
ah, no
<samueldr>
tap it until it registers
<bqv>
oh, ok
<samueldr>
then it'll make you wait for a while
<samueldr>
then the same
<samueldr>
I think it's 5 times?
<samueldr>
colemickens: I think it goes towards making the design more resilient
<bqv>
yeah
<samueldr>
colemickens: rather than the bare minimum to making it work
* bqv
waits
<samueldr>
colemickens: thinking about e.g. chromeos vs. android, chromeos' bootloader is entirely separate to the main storage, so if you experiment and format the whole storage you're fine
<samueldr>
colemickens: meanwhile on android, if you format the whole storage you just blew away everything
<colemickens>
Oh I get the distinction you're making.
<colemickens>
I guess I have low expectations for (everything) these days and don't have hopes of the likes of Google to stop and consider making it easier to recycle perfectly usable devices.
<samueldr>
yeah, that's the kind of uphill battle we're going to be fighting
<samueldr>
because it's coming to computers
<samueldr>
recent qualcomm windows laptops have an android-like layout
<samueldr>
though, thankfully, it's apparently write-protected in the areas where it matters
<bqv>
ew
<samueldr>
with LUNs (hardware-based partitions()
<colemickens>
idk, the way these companies pump out phones every 6 months for 800$ to fill landfills has been making me a bit dizy lately. I mean, everything is, but just how consumery-eWastey the tech-cos have gotten.
<samueldr>
so while it's physically on the same eMMC, it's at least logically split
<pie_>
wut <samueldr> with LUNs (hardware-based partitions()
<colemickens>
samueldr: do those even have user-configurable SB?
<pie_>
colemickens: oh god yes its nuts but you have to keep the money movin eh? :P
<samueldr>
pie_: what's the question?
<samueldr>
colemickens: SB?
<colemickens>
samueldr: Secure Boot? the doomsayers always told me when Windows on ARM made it big, MS would enroll their keys and lock us (linux) out
<samueldr>
ah
<bqv>
HA, did it
<samueldr>
not completely sure that you can enroll on secure boot
<samueldr>
but you definitely can boot your own operaitng system via bog standard UEFI
<pie_>
well , there was that thing about a vuln in grub meaning some keys are gonna get revoked or something
<colemickens>
pie_: the money, and as you put it, the information... this Google+ADT thing... just is an escalation that I knew was coming in the abstract but is smacking me in the face. I'm sitting here realizing Amazon is doing the same thing with Alexa+Blink+Echo and probably has AWS working on dystopia-as-a-service....
<pie_>
i want to blurt "yeah its economics bro" but idk crap about economics
<samueldr>
colemickens: in this instance, all the doomsayers were wrong because it only applied to the specific Windows 8 for ARM for tablet
<pie_>
so more like, why _wouldnt_ they do it
<pie_>
colemickens: is ADT the hardware verification thingy?
<samueldr>
colemickens: and there was *no* public guidance that applied to ARM
<colemickens>
samueldr: cool, I found most of the doomsaying about SB to largely be FUD, but the ARM angle always seemed to hold the most water
<pie_>
colemickens: this is why _real_ seucurity scares me
<samueldr>
there _was_ documentation about that windows 8 for tablets ARM with secure boot that was good fodder and could point towards a trend
<pie_>
if you get competent companies locking down devices properly ur screwed? :P
<samueldr>
pie_: blackberry (née RIM
<colemickens>
pie_: uh, ADT = the security company Google invested in. tl;dr, they "accidentally" upgraded some Home's with non-hotword detection....
<pie_>
oh that
<samueldr>
you still can't boot something else than their OS on their in-house devices
<samueldr>
not sure on the TCL-made blackberry stuff
<samueldr>
but their playbook tablet, and bbos 10, and the first (few?) android devices have a secure boot chain
<pie_>
i feel like this world is coming and there is nothing we can do about it unless some legislation gets passed or something
<pie_>
and i doubt were going to get an updated constitution any time soon
<samueldr>
I think we need a right to repair, but for software
<samueldr>
right to own the boot chain where it matters
<colemickens>
samueldr: hm, a bit random, but I'm sitting here a bit surprised that Microsoft left TB3 out of Surface line-up for security reasons, but will let you disable SecureBoot so easily without a hardware modification.
<samueldr>
colemickens: lol, I wouldn't know
<samueldr>
but maybe rebooting the device is out of scope compared to *just* plugging something in to get DMA?
<samueldr>
or maybe they have in-house a "better" firmware
<samueldr>
like google has for their chromeos devices
* colemickens
nods
<samueldr>
(unverified) the design of chromeos hardware is to fit _their_ own need to run a different firmware in-house
<samueldr>
AFAIUI they even have the pixel 2 running a standard UEFI boot for windows
<samueldr>
euh
<samueldr>
pixel laptop thing 2
* samueldr
hates names like those
<bqv>
samueldr: have i done this right
<colemickens>
pie_: if it's the same constitution I'm thinking of... I'm not holding out hope of any legislative fix.
<samueldr>
bqv: I don't know
<bqv>
i did the power button thingy, it rebooted, but it disabled developer mode
<colemickens>
pie_: so of course I'm doubling down on "more tech will help". lol
<bqv>
so i've rebooted and reenabled developer mode
<bqv>
have i already fucked up?
<colemickens>
just not of the "listen to my every word, record my every movement" type.
<samueldr>
bqv: most likely it's fine, if you can write gbb flags
<pie_>
colemickens: how long till we have to start getting hardware chipped like game consoles anno? :P
<bqv>
hmm
<samueldr>
bqv: unlocking *does* reset things up for security reasons
<pie_>
except it will be impossible
<pie_>
wll, nevermind about that, thats the wrong direction
<samueldr>
a good first draft would be to add an in-line push-button switch to those connected spying devices
<pie_>
if all the services are locked into hardware verification of the platform, like google/android has with its whatevre
<samueldr>
but then a speaker is kind of a bad microphone
<pie_>
youre locked out of half the world anyway
<samueldr>
and most audio hardware can switch between roles at the software level
* colemickens
is wondering how misery to be today
<pie_>
colemickens: same
<pie_>
except im miserying instead of being even more miserable organizign documents
<pie_>
i had enough of that for today
<pie_>
16 boxes of old family docs to archive
<pie_>
most of the way done with phase 1
* colemickens
has a document scanner arriving today
<colemickens>
I have a much smaller task ahead of me though
<samueldr>
colemickens: if you have some time to pair up and look at the issues with your device, tell me in advance and I'll tell you if I can
<samueldr>
(though if you do, make sure to have a serial cable handy)
<joepie91>
pie_: to put it bluntly: browsers accidentally succeeded at accomplishing the "cross-platform, runs-everywhere software" goal that various other projects failed to do intentionally. I suspect that a major reason for that is precisely the thing tech people tend to complain about; namely integration of informational resources and interactive applications in a single environment, with the possibility to seamlessly hyperlink
<joepie91>
*in both directions*. but whatever the reason, yes, browsers are functionally an OS now, for a bunch of very good reasons, and the best we can do with that as developers is figure out a way to make that work without adverse side-effects (which frankly, is not happening)
<colemickens>
samueldr: okay, let me ask this, if I wound up with a spare/used/whatever pixel3, would you be interested in it?
<joepie91>
I also think it's more than a little bizarre that we fucking did it, the cross-platform thing, and techies still manage to find a way to just complain about it instead of recognizing the achievement for what it is, and protecting that against hostile takeover (hello Google)
<joepie91>
something something never satisfied something
<samueldr>
colemickens: the project will always be open to donations, though sure a donation does not in itself means a port will be made
<colemickens>
joepie91: depending on what "adverse side-effects" means, do you think it is possible to claw back the web enough to make it "safe" and still meet peoples' expecations?
<samueldr>
(like, you could donate an iPhone 11 XR or whatever it is named and it won't happen)
<joepie91>
colemickens: almost certainly, yes
<samueldr>
but "trivial" devices like those are likely to happen
<colemickens>
joepie91: I used to be so bought in on webapps and now I really dislike them from a resource and "oh christ, what info/fingerprint/etc am I trailing around".
<samueldr>
e.g. the redmi note 8 pro I got was a donation from a friend
<samueldr>
joepie91: it's the "no, not this way" meme
<colemickens>
joepie91: after recently checking some of my web fingerprints, I sort of lost hope.
<samueldr>
what they wanted is to have magically "integrated" (whatever this means) cross-platform apps
<joepie91>
colemickens: probably the major issues are a) invasive tracking and b) unreasonable resource consumption by informational resources that try to be interactive webapps
<joepie91>
colemickens: honestly I think the whole fingerprinting thing gets too much importance assigned to it
<joepie91>
both of those are addressable without breaking the "universal addressability and navigation" thing
<samueldr>
note that "integrated" here probably means WILDLY different things to everyone complaining!
<joepie91>
colemickens: consider that basically any desktop application can do far, far more tracking than a webapp, for example -- and it's *companies that people trust* that are doing the tracking
<joepie91>
yes, fingerprinting sucks, tracking sucks, but it is by no means a web problem
<joepie91>
it is a socioeconomic problem that affects any and all networked systems
<samueldr>
web though has the "convenience" factor of the ability to do wide-spread cross-domain drive-by tracking, which is mightily annoying
<joepie91>
(and, increasingly, non-networked systems via environment surveillance)
<colemickens>
samueldr: of course, I was shy about asking for even the implication of obligation on your part. I should probably start with a serial cable purchase and kick the tires a few more times with your guidance first.
<samueldr>
haha :)
<pie_>
joepie91: yes exactly : to put it bluntly: browsers accidentally succeeded at accomplishing the "cross-platform, runs-everywhere software" goal
<joepie91>
samueldr: that's far, far easier to do in a desktop app than in a webapp.
<bqv>
ok, wtf
<joepie91>
this never actually was a convenience
<samueldr>
colemickens: order the parts I told you to order, since they'll take time to arrive anyway
<bqv>
ccd is open, i've verified that
<colemickens>
joepie91: I was sort of presuming a free software base, oops
<bqv>
but i can't do anything still
* colemickens
hangs head in shame
<bqv>
and worse yet, it's reporting that write protect is still on
<bqv>
hardware write protect, that is
<bqv>
bob is weird as hell
<bqv>
i'm gonna do the battery thing
<samueldr>
joepie91: drive-by cross-domain? not exactly in the way I meant it... I was thinking about how you read an article on "magazine site A" and then "application X" can have the same tracking info
<joepie91>
samueldr: consider that every bit of tracking is *something someone put there*
<joepie91>
if they are willing to put it in a webapp, they are going to be willing to put it in a desktop app
<samueldr>
but yes, it's _all_ possible through native apps
<joepie91>
colemickens: not sure I follow
<samueldr>
since after all, browsers _are_ native apps
<joepie91>
samueldr: yes, this can - and does - happen with desktop software even more easily
<bqv>
or maybe i should just by a suzyq and leave the laptop on until it arrives
<samueldr>
joepie91: yeah
<colemickens>
joepie91: generally speaking, I'm not worried about native apps tracking me if I'm running free software.
<joepie91>
samueldr: again: someone put that tracking there, it doesn't magically come to exist. if company A operating site A is willing to put a tracker from company X in, they are going to do that regardless of whether it's a site or a desktop app
<colemickens>
joepie91: though this is not something I've considered greatly before now, so feel free to throw ideas at me!
<joepie91>
colemickens: ah, right. IMO that is more an argument for more control over web-y software, than an argument against the web
<joepie91>
colemickens: there have been some experiments around this such as hyperboot, which functions as a 'web bootloader' that lets you control what version of a site's code to run
<colemickens>
joepie91: right. I think it clicked. Okay, eliminate web, now all of those exist as native apps, they'd be proprietary and with tracking. See: Android.
<joepie91>
but that still requires cooperation from the site operator
<joepie91>
colemickens: right, exactly
<samueldr>
joepie91: sure, but if there was a better... I don't know how to call it... isolation in _contentful_ "web" (not the web we have now), things would be different
<joepie91>
heh, Android is a great example actually
<samueldr>
joepie91: what I mean is that the conflation of app vs. content in the web right now is probably harmful
<joepie91>
samueldr: they really wouldn't. there's an infinite amount of ways to peddle data to tracking companies, including through first-party domains
<samueldr>
joepie91: and splitting that in some way *way back when* might have helped (might!
<joepie91>
there exists no way to block tracking by technical means without also breaking application functionality
<joepie91>
and never will
<samueldr>
with the current web
<joepie91>
because this is ultimately just not a technical problem
<samueldr>
but what if there was the "contenful" web, where things are generally one way downloads?
<pie_>
<joepie91> colemickens: consider that basically any desktop application can do far, far more tracking than a webapp, for example -- and it's *companies that people trust* that are doing the tracking
<pie_>
one of my number one peeves (:P) about webapps is they dont work off line
<pie_>
yes but you can firewall those at least, as long as they arent choking you into connecting them to the network.
<pie_>
<colemickens> joepie91: I used to be so bought in on webapps and now I really dislike them from a resource and "oh christ, what info/fingerprint/etc am I trailing around".
<joepie91>
samueldr: that "conflation" is what made it work, IMO
<pie_>
dont have to worry about fingerprinting if it cant talk to anyone
<samueldr>
I know it doesn't align with the current views of forces controlling the web
<samueldr>
joepie91: you're probably right though
<pie_>
modulo sidechannels but eh, raise the floor
<joepie91>
pie_: offline-usable webapps are totally possible
<joepie91>
pie_: and you can firewall web stuff also, see: privacy badger, umatrix, etc.
<bqv>
this is madness, i can't even buy a suzyqable here
<bqv>
i have to do the battery thing and just hope i've got the gbb flags right first time so i don't have to do it again
<joepie91>
samueldr: I think that the problem is not conflation, but rather that there's the wrong incentives, it's too easy and shiny to turn an informational resource into an interactive webapp thing
<joepie91>
samueldr: stuff like AMP *would* have been an interesting attempt at addressing this problem, if it weren't for Google misusing it to sway things their way...
<joepie91>
also more broadly there's a huge cultural problem in software development
<samueldr>
yeah, AMP the concept, vs. AMP the google hijacking things is kind of proof of what I mean: incentives don't align
<pie_>
oh yeah the android example is good (still in scroll)
<joepie91>
the industry by-and-large treats computers like a toy, not infrastructure
<joepie91>
much of the "why the fuck is a Twitter page taking 1.5GB of RAM" type crap can be very easily explained by this cultural problem
<joepie91>
a Twitter dev saw a shiny new thing and wanted to play with it, and put it in production
<samueldr>
frontload the problem to the user
<joepie91>
and this is considered okay in the software industry
<samueldr>
yeah
<samueldr>
that's terrible
<pie_>
joepie91: im saying most webapps are not useable offline, not that they arent in principle
<samueldr>
or things being all subtly broken being fine
<samueldr>
that's not fine
<pie_>
joepie91: you just stated yourself you can pipe data through first party etc etc
<joepie91>
samueldr: right, exactly
<joepie91>
but none of this is gonna be fixed by removing webapps from the equation :P
<samueldr>
joepie91: just as an example of "smell", use your browser at 1.5 css device pixels
<samueldr>
joepie91: exactly
<joepie91>
they are all ultimately systemic problems
<samueldr>
bad devs will do bad stuff, but natively!
<pie_>
the fact that they are systemic problems is why we are miserying i think
<pie_>
id say we can buiuld our own hardware with b & h but no, not really
<joepie91>
right, I just want more people to recognize the systemic problems and *work to fix them*, instead of the current situation, which is one huge pile of developers making a mess of it, and a second huge pile of developers complaining about "web", "javascript", "bloated software", etc. while making a mess of it *in a different way*
<colemickens>
b & h ?
<colemickens>
brick and hand?
<pie_>
unless someone becomes the good amazon of making profit off the moral margins between shitty products and things that make people like us feel good while being accepted and superseding the rest of the market as well
<joepie91>
as that isn't going to solve anything
<colemickens>
joepie91: oh hi, you'd be interested in my new docker project
<colemickens>
that was probably maybe unfair of me
<pie_>
joepie91: the funny thing is i cant comlain about "webshit" because i deliberaltely avoid working on it, so the most i can do is look at it as some infrastructure i vaguely understand
<samueldr>
joepie91: I think I know how to solve this
<samueldr>
make a new javascript source to source compiler infrastructure from scratch
<pie_>
joepie91: and javascript doesnt segfault most of the time so its still better than c :P
* samueldr
thinks joepie91 is now convulsing
<joepie91>
samueldr: that description in and of itself is not necessarily bad, but it is not a solution to this problem, no :P
<samueldr>
:) and I'm pretty sure _some_ attempts at this are part of the problem
<joepie91>
not really actually
<samueldr>
(not because of the intrinsic javascriptness, but because they're buggy mess of just about works)
<pie_>
maybe the problem is all these companies need to do all this crazy junk because free software is taking their market ;P
<pie_>
theyre cornered
* pie_
continues lying to himself
<joepie91>
source-to-source JS stuff basically consists of Babel and some Google junk, and the Google junk can be safely ignored because Google, and Babel is pretty robust
<pie_>
i kind of wonder how much of it is government encouragement tbh
<joepie91>
Babel is one of the few tools I never have to fight with actually
<joepie91>
it just Does The Thing
<joepie91>
(my opinions of its internals documentation and internal API design are less positive, but eh)
<samueldr>
joepie91: I meant the tooling around it, one of those that there's always a new one every months it seems that gets released
<joepie91>
samueldr: anyway most of the barely-works junk in JS-land is the crap that comes from startup land
<samueldr>
yep
<pie_>
its a bit of tinfoilhatting because i havent done my research, but i was thinking earlier how much intel agencies must LOVE things like twitter
<joepie91>
the 4000th failed attempt at a huge framework
<joepie91>
fucking webpack
<joepie91>
etc.
<eyJhb>
Webpack <3 joepie91
<{^_^}>
joepie91's karma got increased to 18
* joepie91
hates webpack with a passion
<eyJhb>
Forget about how karma works
<eyJhb>
Enjoy :D
<joepie91>
unstable unreliable badly-documented inconsistently-designed piece of fucking reinvented-wheel junk
<samueldr>
joepie91: not only that, but they reinvent their own wheel every time I look at it!
<joepie91>
that piece of shit has consumed entirely too much of my remaining time on this earth
<joepie91>
the internals are a mess, almost everything - including public API! - is undocumented
<joepie91>
and basically every single user uses it by copypasting someone elses config, changing it a bit, and hoping that it doesn't blow up, as far as I can tell
<bqv>
ok fine, so i've ordered a suzyq, it'll probably be here sometime in the next month
<__monty__>
Hold on, are you saying Web assembly won't make webapps load any faster? They'll just get more bloated with shinies? : (
<bqv>
in the mean time, the root of the disk is writable in dev mode, can't i maybe just lutris nix onto it?
<pie_>
things expand to fill the availible space :p
<joepie91>
anyway enough webpack ranting, use browserify, which despite predating webpack is still better
<joepie91>
certainly not perfect, but miles ahead of webpack
<joepie91>
and it gets a free pass for being not-perfect, given that it literally invented the concept of bundling :P
<joepie91>
(in the JS sense)\
<joepie91>
__monty__: your shinies will now be 60fps and mine bitcoins
<drakonis>
hmm
<samueldr>
joepie91: 60fps? that doesn't sound right for modern development practices outside of games
<drakonis>
y'all who run websites
<drakonis>
i need some advice on setting up my hosts file
<drakonis>
i cant seem to generate the certs
<joepie91>
drakonis: I deny everything
<joepie91>
it was not my fault
<joepie91>
:P
<joepie91>
also my recommendation for webserver-y things is generally Caddy but I don't think it has a nice NixOS service yet
<drakonis>
i can't figure out how to do my hosts correctly and the nginx service isnt generating the certs
<drakonis>
its complaining about firewalls?
<joepie91>
samueldr: btw, if you want invasive tracking to stop, the best you can do is be very loud politically about criminalizing it or, if you live somewhere that already has the GDPR or similar legislation, make a ruckus about the lacking enforcement
<eyJhb>
Wait
<eyJhb>
We have HTTP/3?
<colemickens>
random thought, maybe not so random: a faint silver lining of COVID is that obstructing your face has never been so accepted in America.
<colemickens>
and probably will be somewhat socially tolerable for a long time.
<colemickens>
(I was thinking about giving up on politicians and just throwing more privacy-tech at the problem, but some mass-surveillance problems seem unsolvable without legislation. Even if I cover my face, gait analysis, etc)
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<joepie91>
colemickens: surveillance capitalism is ultimately a socioeconomic problem and not a technical one, so it is never fully solvable through tech. best you can do is play the cat-and-mouse game, but the deck is very much stacked against you there
<joepie91>
that having been said, while politics are a necessary component in solving this, politicians aren't necessarily
<__monty__>
Here's to hoping all the talk about democratic deficits will *actually* allow us to move past representocracies.
<joepie91>
grassroots politics can get a lot done
<joepie91>
(and with that I mean the entire spectrum from "raising awareness" to "boycotting companies" to "causing property damage at hostile companies" and everything inbetween)
* colemickens
nods
<joepie91>
also this is an unpopular opinion, but don't underestimate the "economic" part in "socioeconomic problem", which is to say that you can solve a huge chunk of these issues by making it, uh, financially uninteresting to continue intruding on people's lives
<joepie91>
aforementioned property damage being a good example of that
<JJJollyjim>
ah yes, market interventions to disincentive negative externalities
<JJJollyjim>
but with more bricks through windows
<__monty__>
And imolated cell towers.
<JJJollyjim>
:P
<colemickens>
Any recent examples come to mind? I feel like internal employee boycotts are the only thing I've heard of being very effective. Hard to imagine the real world scenario of the Google in Freemont going on fire .... stopping them from tweaking their activation triggers?
<colemickens>
maybe better left in the abstract for today
<joepie91>
colemickens: more or less every serious societal change in the past involved some sort of destructive "riots"
<joepie91>
and while it's not entirely clear what the story behind it is yet, AFAIK, one recent example may be BLM
<colemickens>
joepie91: I am not pushing back on that idea at all, please don't get me wrong.
<colemickens>
maybe I should reconsider what I said, and refine it or pull it back.
<joepie91>
it's a bit difficult to read through the lens of clickbaity media, but at least some chunk of the "rioters" around BLM very intentionally did it to make systemic racism an expensive thing to keep alive
<joepie91>
how large that chunk was, I don't know
<joepie91>
especially the large US media had a tendency to paint it as "vandalism", but much of it seemed quite well-targeted
<colemickens>
Totally acknowledged. While it's historical accuracy is contested, as they say, "the first pride was a riot".
<colemickens>
I guess it's just hard for me to conceptualize how much public outrage will be required to blow the lid off enough to materially start mattering when it comes to the sort of society-scale technological ideas we're touching on.
<joepie91>
and it's *also* difficult to figure out how much of a change to attribute to a particular protest strategy, because different people do different things, but the correlation of "things with persistent property damage tend to cause lasting changes, things without it tend not to" does strongly suggest that it plays a role
<joepie91>
colemickens: no worries, wasn't interpreting it as such :P
<joepie91>
yeah exactly
<colemickens>
(aka, I'm being miser-y today)
<joepie91>
when money is involved, I'm less convinced that "outrage" alone will solve the problem - in a capitalist system, when dealing with extractive capitalists, there's going to have to be some monetary trigger
<joepie91>
whether that is through heavily enforced legislation or through firebombing the HQ of an adtech company, doesn't matter terribly much, so long as the organization in question realizes that it's going to be an ongoing cost to violate people's expectations
<joepie91>
and the equation there is pretty much "you have to look more expensive than their profit margin"
<colemickens>
For me, "outrage" wasn't for hte sake of outrage as much as... outrage as a multiplier. More people angry = more people organizing = more... uh... letter writing campaigns.
<joepie91>
(or well, you can also literally threaten people's lives, but I don't think I need to explain why I think that's a bad idea :P)
<colemickens>
But maybe some people can write faster and more convincingly than others.
<joepie91>
colemickens: you don't need a lot of people to cause significant results
<joepie91>
the bigger challenge is how it's going to come across towards others
<colemickens>
joepie91: it's a subtle take away from our conversation, yes
<colemickens>
and that.
<joepie91>
even BLM, despite the wide base of support, has had issues to get it perceived as "causing material cost" rather than "senseless vandalism"
<joepie91>
and while you *can* cause a lot of damage without public support, that's what gets you on the "domestic terrorism" list
<joepie91>
(even if what you are fighting for would in principle be in the best interest of the population)
<colemickens>
Yup. Lighting a youth detention center on fire, and igniting a Starbucks with people living above it are likely to be perceived differently. (both things that happened on the same day in my neighborhood last month)
<joepie91>
also, for the sake of completeness: I should note that around BLM there's not just "vandal rioters" and "people causing intentional material damage" - there's also a group of people who just do not care about the "vandal rioters" group because the thing being vandalized is something that's intruding on their community to begin with
<joepie91>
(there are probably more 'ca,ps
<joepie91>
oops
<joepie91>
* (there are probably more 'camps' with more varied opinions as well, but these are the main ones I've seen)
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<joepie91>
colemickens: in general, IMO setting things on fire that have people in them should be avoided...
<joepie91>
the point is to cause damage, not to risk people's lives
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<colemickens>
"Moms across America are very worried about the Target in downtown Springfield."
<aleph->
Hmm. Debating, would folks like a module for an adblocking DNS server? Debating on finishing what I have for pihole, or just doing adguard home... Could knock the latter out in like an hour honestly
<__monty__>
Setting things on fire is a very risky way to cause damage.
<__monty__>
I.e., please consider more predictable alternatives first.
<joepie91>
yeah
<aleph->
Already a package for it and config is just yaml, so I can re-use a module I have for generating it from nix expr lang...
<aleph->
Hmm might just go with that, ya.
<colemickens>
joepie91: of course. Of the opinions I was exposed to, folks were very condemning of the Starbuck's fire. I believe some helpfully offered addresses of standalone locations for affected customers.
<__monty__>
They cared about the starbucks fire because of a lack of coffee service, not the people living above it?
<joepie91>
also, hopefully needless to say: it's preferable to fix these issues through legislative means where possible :P
<joepie91>
colemickens: :/
<joepie91>
in entirely unrelated news: it's incredible how much of a difference an additional standing fan makes in cooling this room
<joepie91>
combined with the portable airco I was already using
<joepie91>
about 4C difference compared to yesterday, with about the same outside temperatures
<joepie91>
fan basically just being pointed at the airco exhaust and oscillating
<sphalerite>
joepie91: how much has the AC's power usage increased? :D
<joepie91>
sphalerite: not, I'd imagine - it's basically running at a 100% duty cycle
<joepie91>
and AFAIK AC power usage is pretty much consistent
<sphalerite>
joepie91: huh, so it was just cooling a smaller area by a much greater amount before?
<__monty__>
joepie91: Create some shade in the garden, maybe a kiddie pool under a table for foot cooling and work outside.
<joepie91>
it is either on or off
<joepie91>
__monty__: even the ambient air is nightmarish
<joepie91>
sphalerite: I think so? I'm not totally sure what's going on, I'm suspecting it might have had bigger wastage due to it being a portable AC and therefore the exhaust and the intake being relatively close together
<joepie91>
possibly more of the cold air is now getting distributed through the room rather than being immediately taken in and vented outdoors
<sphalerite>
aah
<joepie91>
either way the result is crazy
<joepie91>
outdoors 36-37, indoors it never went above 25.5 C
<joepie91>
yesterday it was more like 29-30 indoors
<joepie91>
with AC
<__monty__>
joepie91: You're just not creating enough shade.
<__monty__>
Have you blacked out the windows? Preferably with foil? Helps a *lot*.
<joepie91>
__monty__: where possible, yes
<joepie91>
or where appropriate, more like
<joepie91>
the major source of heat in this room is late-afternoon sun being aimed directly at it
<joepie91>
I already have a reflective blackout roll-y curtain-y thing
<joepie91>
which helps, but not enough :P
<__monty__>
Hmm, have you considered altering your latitude?
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<joepie91>
__monty__: teleporter is in the shop, unfortunately
<joepie91>
and I think my landlord would take issue with relocating the house to the nordics
<__monty__>
Would be the ultimate property damage to cause change ; )
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<joepie91>
possibly :P
<joepie91>
though there are much worse landlords that deserve that much more
<samueldr>
I can attest that, with a portable A/C in an otherwise non-AC'd home it makes quite the difference to create an air flow
<samueldr>
though in my case I send it in another room, but it makes quite the difference for that room while not harming results in the room with the A/C
<manveru>
aleph-: would love that to replace my pihole on raspian setup :)
<aleph->
manveru: Perfect then. :) Almost have a module written, will PR it tomorrow when I get back to my apartment and can test it
<joepie91>
samueldr: any idea what the physics are behind this?
<manveru>
joepie91: the higher the temperature delta of the A/C intake/exhaust, the more efficient it is, i think?
<samueldr>
I say without harming... though it does make the room with the A/C "hotter", but like two degrees hotter than when the A/C's air is not being stolen?
<samueldr>
and I assume like I do, otherwise it's just re-using your already somewhat cooler air
<samueldr>
assume like you do*
<manveru>
i blow most of my cool air to the ceiling in hopes of increasing air circulation...
<manveru>
my room is usually around 30-32C in summer, with the portable A/C i get it down to almost 26
<manveru>
living under the roof with a big ass window directly in the roof sucks :|
<sphalerite>
aleph-: generating yaml from nix? You mean builtins.toJSON? :D
<aleph->
sphalerite: Heh I'm using a gnarly jq func from the prometheus module. Should really use the builtin
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<samueldr>
nerd snipe alert
<samueldr>
or uh, warning
<samueldr>
it would be nice to have a website where you can press something, like clicking the mouse, or holding a virtual button, where you just copy the pattern of a flashing LED
<samueldr>
so that you can share the pattern you see when debugging
<samueldr>
e.g. you see a flashing LED on your router
<samueldr>
no need to try to say "it flashes on and off, like short, then long"
<samueldr>
just copy the pattern on the website!
<__monty__>
Video sounds easier in a time where basically everyone has a smartphone in their pocket.
<samueldr>
how do you explain to a less-experienced user to send the videoT?
<__monty__>
Croc and magic-wormhole are pretty damn good.
<sphalerite>
is there a web UI for magic-wormhole yet?
<__monty__>
Especially croc if you're targetting less-experienced users specifically.
<samueldr>
right
<samueldr>
the shoes
<samueldr>
"shoes"
<samueldr>
or the crocodile game?
<__monty__>
file.io is the simplest way I've found of sharing a file.
<samueldr>
and how's croc working on that smartphone?
<__monty__>
There's also various websocket torrent file sharing webapps but I haven't gotten those to work. They're supposed to be magic-wormhole in webapp form.
<joepie91>
webtorrent stuff?
<joepie91>
that uses webrtc afaik, not websockets?
<__monty__>
Yes, that.
<joepie91>
(also webtorrent is neat)
<__monty__>
Manually copying an LED blink pattern sounds like a recipe for frustration to me.
<__monty__>
Better than putting it in words but definitely inferior to a video.
<__monty__>
Also, most "less-experienced" people have no issues with uploading a video to something like IG or facebook.
<samueldr>
I wouldn't be so sure to make that assumption
<samueldr>
(and then there is the issue of me not being able to go to that video)
<__monty__>
You can on IG. FB too if they make it public.
<__monty__>
If you're targetting senior citizens I'd question their ability to operate a mouse in sync with a blinking LED too.
<samueldr>
okay
<samueldr>
I get it
<samueldr>
my idea is terrible
<__monty__>
Nah, it's a fun project.
<sphalerite>
samueldr: it's not, it just needs more machine learning
<samueldr>
sphalerite: I never said I wanted to make a startup!
<__monty__>
Better first project than that umpteenth TODO app : )
<samueldr>
sphalerite: and be careful, VC (vulture capitalists) will start circling around you, with ideas like those
<drakonis>
hmm
<drakonis>
my nixos box is based on the release 20.03 iso
<drakonis>
nginx problems remain though
<sphalerite>
samueldr: vulture capitalists <3
<sphalerite>
not heard that one before
<samueldr>
I don't know if I did
<joepie91>
samueldr: this reminds me of songtapper
<samueldr>
joepie91: exactly
<joepie91>
sort of a predecessor of shazam
<joepie91>
many years ago
<joepie91>
you tapped the space bar at the beat of whatever song you were thinking of
<samueldr>
I won't say I just coined it, because maybe I didn't, but I don't think it's something I see often
<joepie91>
and it would identify the song
<__monty__>
Ooh, built-in electronic gadget manual search would be pretty cool.
<joepie91>
I should get back to my manual search engine project some time
<joepie91>
or well, the broader search project really
<samueldr>
though, with machine learning, and video, maybe it's possible to detect all the LEDs on the device and do *something useful* about it
<__monty__>
Lol, I had the wrong definition for manual in mind.
<joepie91>
samueldr: are you familiar with the remote debugging features on recent appliances? :P
<samueldr>
joepie91: no?
<__monty__>
I remember this challenge I once did. Had a non-descript populated PCB, it blinked an LED with morse code. Took a video and did some minor image processing et voila solved in a couple mins and 20 lines of python what took some people hours of scrubbing through a video.
<joepie91>
samueldr: so a lot of modern appliances (washers, microwaves) have a "beep debugging" mode where after some button sequence or audio signal it emits a bunch of beeps that emit the current internal state of the system
<joepie91>
samueldr: this is used by customer support lines to remote-debug the appliances
<joepie91>
over the phone
<sphalerite>
oooh so like
<joepie91>
sometimes through fully automated analysis, sometimes in calls with CSRs
<sphalerite>
an acoustic coupler! :D
<samueldr>
is it modulating and demodulating information?
<samueldr>
though, neat!
<joepie91>
so you basically call support, you hold the phone up to the device, maybe press certain buttons, let it beep, and then out comes an answer as to what's wrong
<joepie91>
samueldr: yeah
<sphalerite>
I'm wondering if I should try connecting my washing machine to the wifi
<samueldr>
sphalerite: please don't
<sphalerite>
why not
<joepie91>
samueldr: downside: these beep codes are generally not documented, it's a proprietary system :(
<samueldr>
yeah :(
<samueldr>
sphalerite: do you want to wait for a firmware upgrade to start your next load?
<samueldr>
or worse, *introduce new bugs*?
<sphalerite>
samueldr: I said wifi, not internet :D
<samueldr>
ah
<samueldr>
I still want to get the source code of my fake-dumb washing machine to fix its bugs
<samueldr>
and to even confirm information
<sphalerite>
lol
<samueldr>
I hate the way it uses skeuomorphism to look like an electro-mechanical washing machine
<samueldr>
but it's not
<samueldr>
so it does weird things
<sphalerite>
I think the first thing I'll do if I do connect mine to hte wifi is nmap it
<samueldr>
if you leave the top open while it's filling, after it's done filling it will wait a bit and then empty itself
<sphalerite>
but I don't actually know how to connect it to the wifi. I bet it involves an app :x
<samueldr>
so you've just wasted all that water _and detergent_; while being actually unable to know how much detergent to put into since the clothes trapped a bunch
<samueldr>
I also accidentally triggered a service mode while dilly-dallying with the dial
cjpbirkbeck has quit [Quit: Goodbye, take care]
<samueldr>
I wasn't sure what I wanted in the modes, so I just spun it around a number of time left and right and it needed to be turned off and on again at the power outlet
<samueldr>
I wouldn't risk trying to interact with it in that mode
<samueldr>
(there's no display, as it fakes being a dumb old washing machine)
<joepie91>
lol
<joepie91>
samueldr: my washing machine has a boot time
<sphalerite>
wow
<joepie91>
press power, wait two seconds with zero response, BEEP
<samueldr>
I'm sure mine doesn't because it just stays on as a vampire
<joepie91>
I can't complain too much since I paid like 40 EUR or w/e for it
<joepie91>
but it's uh, very beepy
<joepie91>
absolutely ear-piercing and mind-shattering beep sequence once it's done
<joepie91>
pretty sure the neighbours three doors down know when my laundry's done :P
<samueldr>
my brother bought that one when he was living with me after my old one mysteriously broke twice after he used each time :)
<joepie91>
heh
<samueldr>
I still think it would have been better to keep the old one and invest in a repairperson
<samueldr>
that old one (which I got as used) even had a designed-to-fail component!
<joepie91>
samueldr: I'm conflicted. my previous washing machine was very much a dumb one, rattle-y program dial and everything, totally electromechanical, massive rats nest of cabling
<joepie91>
it was nice and simple and reliable other than eventually having the ball bearings give out
<samueldr>
an inexpensive part of the ratchet was designed to get all the damage so you just buy a ~5$ component to fix it
<joepie91>
but OTOH my new one has a rebalancing mechanism that makes me very happy, where it will detect it when the load is unbalanced and it shakes things up or reduces the spin speed before continuing and dancing a hole in my floor
<samueldr>
now I wait patiently as I'm at the other end of the bell curve and I'm sure it's about to break horribly
<__monty__>
Just talked to a dryer salesperson yesterday. "There's only so high the quality of electronics can go, so they're all crap basically." I guess they've never heard of redundancy.
<joepie91>
which means I no longer have to go "OH FUCK" and run upstairs and untangle the sheets before letting it continue its spin cycle
<samueldr>
I think you european folks have generally smaller washing machines
<joepie91>
this one is 7kg load I think
<samueldr>
the old one I had never had terrible issues with balancing loads through luck I guess
<joepie91>
previous one was 5-6?
<samueldr>
but the new one is terrible! it's self-balancing and it just tries to run away!
<joepie91>
lol
<joepie91>
samueldr: the old one did get abused a bit, the springs weren't quite great anymore
<joepie91>
that probably didn't help
<samueldr>
I put in a wedge at the front for it not to run off and tear the doors down *again*
<joepie91>
haha
<joepie91>
samueldr: I did something similar with my dishwasher when I had my old washing machine
<sphalerite>
samueldr: I think toploaders are pretty uncommon over here
<__monty__>
Sounds like you accidentally bought a rampaging bear rather than a washing machine.
<joepie91>
dishwasher was sitting on top (it was a countertop one) and had a tendency of trying to walk off the washing machine during spin cycle...
<joepie91>
so I eventually creatively wedged it
<joepie91>
oh yeah, all washers are frontloaded here, pretty much
<joepie91>
this is much more satisfying than that logo
<sphalerite>
until someone pulls the drawer out and turns it upside down
<samueldr>
I literally can't find a spec sheet with a load size in weight
<samueldr>
so I don't know what "7kg" compares to with that washing machine
<joepie91>
sphalerite: that is what we call a "sorting challenge"
<samueldr>
in fact I never thought about load size in weight before you brought it up :)
<sphalerite>
ooh someone should make a tool based on a 3d scanner which takes in assorted components and identifies them (with machine learning of course)
<joepie91>
samueldr: huh. it's the standard measuring method here
<joepie91>
samueldr: oh I think I know why, it's because we all have frontloaders
<samueldr>
probably
<joepie91>
which are probably much more weight-sensitive than toploaders
<joepie91>
sphalerite: what did we tell you about the vulture capitalists :P
<joepie91>
more seriously, I printed a neat little thing recently
<samueldr>
sphalerite: the filament spools have a finite length
<samueldr>
you'll stop at some point
<cransom>
hrm. stackable trays with funnel. i'll add that to my list.
<joepie91>
these things are super useful for sorting, you can just throw stuff into them, stack them for a while to get them out of the way, and then pour out the contents into a compartment or bag :)
<joepie91>
sphalerite: also 3D printing is slow
<sphalerite>
samueldr: yes but I can buy more
<sphalerite>
joepie91: so I'll just buy more printers to be able to do more in parallel :p
<joepie91>
sphalerite: congratulations, you now own a fire hazar- I mean, printer farm!
* cransom
stares at the pile of parts that is the 3rd 3d printer.
<joepie91>
:P
<cransom>
though one of them i need to sell. covid didn't help
<joepie91>
lol
<joepie91>
cransom: Some Assembly Required?
<sphalerite>
surely there are cloud printing services out there or something though
<samueldr>
yes
<cransom>
all my current printers came as components. all assembly required
<joepie91>
sphalerite: yeup. largely run by people who started 3D-printing stuff, weren't able to stop, and now own a fire hazar- I mean, printer farm
<joepie91>
you could be one of them! :P
<samueldr>
though not that great if you're trying to prototype a part I guess
<sphalerite>
:D
<samueldr>
the turnaround isn't the best :)
<joepie91>
cransom: ah right. I never had to do that, thankfully :P
<samueldr>
this all reminds me that I still need to figure out a local~ish place to get acrylic cut
<joepie91>
Ender 3 is partly preassembled
<sphalerite>
joepie91: hehe
<sphalerite>
I think for iterating I can use the "my colleague with a 3d printer" cloud printing service :D
<joepie91>
most of the hard parts are preassembled, you basically screw on the frame and a limit switch and tighten a belt and that's pretty much it
<cransom>
joepie91: 'have to', more like 'get to'. i'm ok with it. that amount of fiddly is some amount of fun. you aren't scared to pull it apart to fix it when it inevitably breaks.
<samueldr>
I have a foam core prototype and a coroplast prototype that would look and be much nicer as a well-cut acrylic piece
<joepie91>
belt tightening requires some care, limit switch was a bit annoying on mine
<joepie91>
otherwise, no problem!
<joepie91>
about the same amount of work as a shitty IKEA side table :P
<joepie91>
cransom: right, I'm more interested in the printing part, less the assembly part :D and tbh nothing has really broken nor seems to be showing any signs of breakage
<joepie91>
thing basically just... works
<sphalerite>
yay, boot is broken on my chromebook again \o/
<joepie91>
samueldr: hackerspace with lasercutter?
<joepie91>
cransom: I'd actually argue that so far, my 3D printer has been far more reliable than my 2D printer...
<cransom>
at least you only need to assemble once.
<drakonis>
HAA HAAAA SUCCESS I FORGOT TO OPEN THE PORTS
<drakonis>
which explains why my quake server didnt work when i wanted to play with my brother on lan
<cransom>
joepie91: eh. reliable each way is a wash. but at least when the 3d one fails, it's in ways that are in my power to do something about
<pie_>
well this looks fun....
<pie_>
rendered by the chip. Targets can also be attacked by installing malicious apps that require no permissions at all.From there, attackers can monitor locations and listen to nearby audio in real time and exfiltrate photos and videos. Exploits also make it possible to render the phone completely unresponsive. Infections can be hidden from the operating system in a way that makes disinfecting difficult. ...
<samueldr>
pie_: all of this amplified by the fact that phones are not platforms where you can "just reinstall windows on"
* joepie91
skeptically glares at the "400"
<samueldr>
as in re-install the operating system as generic as possible
<samueldr>
joepie91: there's no hackerspace in the city
<joepie91>
samueldr: :(
<samueldr>
(I just re-checked)
<joepie91>
start one! :P
<samueldr>
basically impossible
<samueldr>
IIRC
<samueldr>
some friends were looking to start a private one, and zoning laws make it impossible
<samueldr>
I don't remember the details
<Ashy>
wow qualcom
<joepie91>
how come?
<joepie91>
hm
<joepie91>
and well I was thinking more a public one
<samueldr>
I don't remember the details, I only remember their conclusion
<joepie91>
samueldr: no way to do in in some random, decrepit empty office building that's being rented out for cheap?
<samueldr>
maybe it was related to the specific location
<Ashy>
I hate that the vast majority of the world's computing runs on proprietary firmware
<joepie91>
right
<drakonis>
joepie91: nixos is a godsend
<drakonis>
i can now set up my relay
* joepie91
contemplates bed
<pie_>
Ashy: and here i am using an inherited huawei, sigh
<sphalerite>
ugh. so I have a new Thinkpad T14 with AMD
<sphalerite>
it's very nice with the AMD stuff
<samueldr>
the fun thing with that new qualcomm issue
<sphalerite>
but the input devices are much worse than the T460s I had before
<samueldr>
you probably won't get an update :(
<samueldr>
even though there is a fix from qualcomm
<sphalerite>
the trackpoint is really janky and the mouse buttons click without responding sometimes (i.e. the pressure threshold for the sensory "bump" is below the actual electrical connection threshold)
<samueldr>
it needs to go through google, which then those security updates will go through your OEMs
<samueldr>
and if you're in north america, that then goes through your telco
<samueldr>
the OEMs generally stop security updates within 2 years
<samueldr>
if you're lucky
<sphalerite>
and the touchscreen is matte which makes it feel horrible to use, you can just feel how you're putting smudges all over it and have the impulse to obsessively dry your fingertip
<sphalerite>
well it's not properly matte, just sort of semi-matte
<samueldr>
meanwhile I can buy a 5 year old laptop with windows (and its legit license) and just update it, even if it came customized by the OEM
<samueldr>
sphalerite: you have to remember smartphones *now* come with an oleophobic coating, but they didn't always
<samueldr>
so even glossy displays tracked smudges!
<samueldr>
what a terrible time it was
<sphalerite>
aah
<sphalerite>
I mean, I'm not even sure I am putting smudges on the screen. Maybe it has a fancy coating too.
<sphalerite>
But it definitely feels like I am.
<samueldr>
heh
<sphalerite>
I put a latex glove on when I used it extensively for the first time. Didn't feel much better in terms of the gliding, but at least it didn't feel like I was covering the screen in stuff