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* eyJhb
*shoo shoo samueldr *
<samueldr>
tbf, it's one of the first things I packaged and... as nix is quite amazing, I never really had to touch it ever again
<samueldr>
so, there you have it
<samueldr>
a major downside of nix
<samueldr>
you don't ever have to fix your bad early work
<eyJhb>
Did you come directly from a Mac?
<samueldr>
nope
<eyJhb>
Why would you then do something like that to yourself? :(
<samueldr>
never really used a mac
<samueldr>
why not?
<eyJhb>
Especially the uppercase!
<eyJhb>
Damn
<samueldr>
why not??
<eyJhb>
You got me there
<samueldr>
it's perfectly cromulent
<samueldr>
now, if I had it as "/Documents and Settings"
<samueldr>
I'll tell you one reason to do it: you can make sure there's no bad assumptions that /home/$USER is a user's home
<eyJhb>
Simpsons fan?
<eyJhb>
True
<samueldr>
not anymore, but I'm still sticking to the naming scheme
<eyJhb>
Have you experienced that before?
<samueldr>
I don't think I ever had
<samueldr>
(experienced that)
<samueldr>
but the main reason: it irks some people
<ar>
samueldr: no no, it should be /Ðóćümęńẗś äńd Śęẗẗïńgś
<eyJhb>
I am still more scared of programs that run `sudo ${foo}/${bar}`
<eyJhb>
:(
<eyJhb>
ar: don't give ideas! :(
<ar>
to properly trigger all the non-unicode-clean programs
<samueldr>
and the naming scheme, it's been one I'm using since ~2004, so it's kinda neat I think that I'm still using it
<worldofpeace>
at long last, I've cleared 400 notifications. soon, there will be peace
<ar>
worldofpeace: "mark all as read"?
<eyJhb>
worldofpeace: my bank just released a new UI, where you cannot go back in you "old" messages to see them. This includes the 46 unread messages I have. Now I have 6 unread I cannot read
<worldofpeace>
ar: hehe, I marked as read the one's that looked very no op. But the rest I actually read
<worldofpeace>
eyJhb: so that means any messages made in the old ui are just unreadable?
<eyJhb>
Luckily they still provide the old UI as fallback. But holy hell the new one is straight up shit *sorry for the language*
<worldofpeace>
I don't even know how someone would write off on that even being made available to the user for all things banking
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<eyJhb>
No clue either, it seems so so bad... Worst part is, it is my bank for my company... I wold expect them to be a lot better, when dealing with such things
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<eyJhb>
Btw. worldofpeace up for a little PR?
<worldofpeace>
lol, maybe just one eyJhb 😸
<bqv>
samueldr: but if there are bad assumptions, you end up with a broken app
<bqv>
i do often want to shake up what remains of the fhs on nixos though, too
<worldofpeace>
I mean, might as well before I fade into some mist
<eyJhb>
worldofpeace: #90307 just anything on it would be great. Currently run a setup where I have to apply this patch to my nixpkgs :p
<eyJhb>
And I know how much you love all my PRs <3
<worldofpeace>
eyJhb: thanks, I merged. I saw no problem just having that now
<eyJhb>
Perfect! Thanks! I wish for more people like you. I have had a PR open for Docker since May... :(
<eyJhb>
<3 worldofpeace
<{^_^}>
worldofpeace's karma got increased to 175
<worldofpeace>
thanks eyJhb 💓 Maybe try to hang out in the nixos (unofficial discord if you can) jonringer is probably another one to look out for
<worldofpeace>
and I think in big projects, people mind getting pinged less
<worldofpeace>
erm, they don't mind getting pinged really
<eyJhb>
I hope so! I just hate continuously pinging people
<eyJhb>
Just sent you a PM worldofpeace :)
<bqv>
argh, how do you ltrace a setuid program
<bqv>
wow that went spectacularly badly
<bqv>
i was going to say, solution was to run it as root
<bqv>
but i think that was a mistake
<bqv>
my display crashed, and now i have three mice and lots of screen corruption
<eyJhb>
bqv: three times the productivity?
<eyJhb>
I think I have the worst rebase atm..
<eyJhb>
This is not smart or fun
<eyJhb>
Looks like it has just eaten parts of the code
<bqv>
:D
<bqv>
when the rebases get that hairy, i just settle for a merge
<bqv>
ok this is starting to get silly, i'm recompiling some code that gets used in a library, and seeing none of the edits at runtime
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<eyJhb>
bqv: this is such a mess either way
<eyJhb>
Sad that I have not kept it up-to-date
<eyJhb>
I think making a new branch a literally just copying over the files/packages is more efficient
<eyJhb>
I have a BUNCH of untracked files now. damn it
<bqv>
Haha, I've done that before
<bqv>
Basically a soft reset
<eyJhb>
Damn it
<eyJhb>
Merged with the wrong branch
<eyJhb>
:(
<bqv>
Oh!
<bqv>
Wait, nevermind
<eyJhb>
Now everything is OK, but... There is sooo much rewrite as always
<eyJhb>
bqv: does stuff somewhat work?
<bqv>
No I almost thought what I was trying was impossible
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<bqv>
Maybe it is, I have a crazy error :D
<eyJhb>
That is at least something!
<eyJhb>
I just have a lot to refactor...
<eyJhb>
:(
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<polezaivsani>
i've been snowflake-blind for a while yet still lust for some critical thinking - can somebody here shed some light on the shortcommings of the nix approach in general? any ailments that don't get enough attention?
<__monty__>
UX
<energizer>
what does snowflake blind mean?
<energizer>
the main principles of nix are good and make very usable systems. some facts of the 2020 implementation are annoying
<polezaivsani>
energizer: that's my ref to the nix logo and being generally positively affected by the approach, so much so that i might become less objective
<energizer>
ah
<polezaivsani>
curious about devil's advocate take on it ;)
<energizer>
are you asking for "what is bad about nix" or more "what is bad about immutable package management and system definition"?
<polezaivsani>
energizer: i'd curious in any of it frankly
<polezaivsani>
since i don't know of much 'bad' aspects about any of it
<__monty__>
Some software is hard to package and FHSUserEnv doesn't always help.
<energizer>
rebuilding/activating nixos takes >30s which is way too long for interactive configuration-change cycles
<energizer>
PRs often take quite some time to get merged (but i dont have numbers on that, itself a problem)
<energizer>
docs are ..that way
<polezaivsani>
energizer: i'm new here, but what's up with type system - is it about typed/untyped langs in general, or something else?
<bqv>
There isn't one
<energizer>
polezaivsani: it's a pretty unsophisticated dynamic type system
<polezaivsani>
thanks! i guess i'd better study that aspect some more
<sphalerite>
polezaivsani: depending on your balance of pragmatism vs idealism, you could consider nix's approach as having the shortcoming that it breaks a lot of assumptions that software that people need to use makes.
<polezaivsani>
sphalerite: you mean the ones that come with reproducible builds / hardcoded assumptions about the env / etc. ?
<energizer>
the main problem with nix is that it requires users to do a lot of work
<__monty__>
It's not even a dynamic type system. Nix is untyped. There's lib.types but that's more like manually inserted run-time checks rather than dynamic typing.
<__monty__>
Error messages are often useless ime. Which makes debugging a little frustrating.
<polezaivsani>
__monty__: guess it's a good thing that i haven't been spoiled by langs with good ones :)
<energizer>
polezaivsani: what languages are you coming from?
<polezaivsani>
energizer: both statically and dynamically typed; leaning to former ones (halfway int haskell2010 now)
<polezaivsani>
energizer: that burden on the users - would that be a learning fee or more of a sustained extra?
<eyJhb>
__monty__: I had a jq error once when doing some module stuff, because the underlying package I used (which I guess is not often used, but a big part of Nix) threw that error. I got NO trace, at all
<eyJhb>
Was fun
<__monty__>
polezaivsani: Are you saying you think haskell's compiler errors are bad?
<__monty__>
You need to get used to them but they're absolutely stellar compared to what you get with nix.
<polezaivsani>
__monty__: not bad, though i have some anecdotes
<eyJhb>
bqv: IT IS ALIVE! :D
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<eyJhb>
Anybody experienced malware on NixOS?
<eyJhb>
Curious of how it would be
<eyJhb>
adisbladis: on any of the clients at Tweag, do you use tmpfs/zfs rollbacks there?
<__monty__>
eyJhb: Why would it be different from other distros?
<eyJhb>
__monty__: not having /bin /sbin, etc. available, not really having a good way to install backdoors, except if you grep the users path, etc.
<eyJhb>
Like, you can
<eyJhb>
But it gets more annoying I would assume
<eyJhb>
And a lot of the crappy malware will not work
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<immae>
I'm not expert bu I expect that usually malware stay mostly in memory and they're reinitiated via repetition of the user "bad" action no? (possibly facilitated with an ad-hoc config)
<__monty__>
Aren't most serious malwares self-contained? Like all the ransomware lately?
<immae>
ah yes using paths that are common, didn't think of it
<eyJhb>
Well, most I would assume expolit libc as fucking always if we talk overflows, rop, etc. and from there you try to start a program you know of, which is most likely /bin/sh. From there you can do fun stuff! But basically you want command execution to do anything malware fun
<__monty__>
But /bin/sh is still present.
<eyJhb>
And you cannot use the paths, because most programs will not have that path. e.g. Python
<eyJhb>
Yes! But from there on out
<eyJhb>
You need to know about /nix/store, or be lucky the program you are attacking have a sweet sweet path
<__monty__>
There's /usr/bin/env if you want to find python.
<eyJhb>
But I wonder if most would do that
<eyJhb>
Also, python, etc. is not default on NixOS
<eyJhb>
Also, doens't env just use your PATH to give you a abs path?
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<__monty__>
eyJhb: If you know you're targeting NixOS you have a world-readable store of software at your disposal though.
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<eyJhb>
__monty__: yes :D And that is what is nice as well, but it adds a bit more work
<eyJhb>
But attacks like changing a bin etc. won't work as well on NixOS
<sphalerite>
I wonder if there have been any code quality surveys on malware
<sphalerite>
I imagine a lot of it will be just hacked together to the minimal standard of "it works", but I wonder if some malware is developed with high engineering standards as well?
<pie_>
i think there have been but i dont hav a real basis for this
<pie_>
s/real/
<pie_>
well for high engineering standards its usually nation state stuff, but even there people say things like the chinese just throw something together
<pie_>
and hey, if it works for them, *shrug*
<pie_>
im also not sure about that "usually"
<pie_>
like, who has a professional engineering budget for these things
<pie_>
not really sure where the typical professional "cybercriminal" falls on that spectrum
* pie_
wishes for references to cite
<pie_>
i dont have any ideas offhand than to peek at some malware analysis blogs
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<pie_>
energizer: polezaivsani: how do you handle integration while keeping the benefits of the nix approach, by which i mean things like task switchers not being able to access the necessary informations (like icons) from running programs to work properly, because they dont know how to find the information. arguably this is due to bad infrmation discovery APIs in things unrelated to nix, but i think the dead(data at rest)/live (runtime state
<pie_>
stuff) structures distinction is a problem that i havent seen anyone writing about, and which i think needs consideration - or likely im looking at it wrong
<pie_>
runtime structures arent purely functional and compositional. it may be illustrtive to take a look at how capabilities based OSs deal with this (which i havent done), but at the end of the day if youre doing some sort of integration, you have to pull all your threads into one place, and so its also a question how that should be done (windows registry? dbus?) (not sure if dbus belongs in that enumeration)
* pie_
noob
<pie_>
if you start something like a kde shell, you expect things to just work?
<adisbladis>
pie_: I think when you mention dbus what you're really thinking of is dconf
<pie_>
mm i guess. im not really familiar with the d ecosystem
<pie_>
dbus does seem to fit into the "integration" vein tho?
<adisbladis>
dconf is not really tied to dbus in any way, it's the gnomy configuration management tool
<pie_>
*nod*
<adisbladis>
(the interface is dbus, but we can forget that for a moment)
<pie_>
i think another way to pose it might be "how do you do integration in a purely functional system", but some expansion would be needed on whats meant by "integration"
<pie_>
my perceived restriction of nix to the file system has been bothering me for a long time, thats all I got. *shrug*
<adisbladis>
I think the short answer is that you don't
<adisbladis>
And the slightly longer answer is that you do it in a best-effort manner
<pie_>
currently, yes, but i dont know either how this could/should be cone
<pie_>
*done
<adisbladis>
pie_: home-manager has some interesting dconf shenanigans
<pie_>
its all just a big questionmark for me
<adisbladis>
pie_: I think being strictly purely functional means that you have to have an environment that's conducive to that
<adisbladis>
Which Gnome/KDE is not
<pie_>
yeah
<adisbladis>
Sadly I don't think we'll ever quite "get there" on DEs
<pie_>
well, thats part of the question isnt it
<pie_>
id probably start looking to haskell for solutions but that would require posing a problem i could do that with :P maybe i just havent thought about it much
<gchristensen>
I should learn the mapped keys for weechat better, instead of using alt-arrow and alt-a to navigate between any buffer > 10
* etu
has alt-<letter on the row below the number> for 10+<number above letter> mapped
<etu>
Works well up to 20 at least
<etu>
Of course had to adapt them for dvorak
<gchristensen>
nice
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<sphalerite>
gchristensen: I use the mouse navigation and have managed to avoid learning any more keys through that :D
<sphalerite>
it has scrolling and everything!
<gchristensen>
:o
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<adisbladis>
How are people using nixpkgs as a flake with custom patches? Or are you always using an exact upstream nixpkgs?
<LnL>
I think it would be really nice if you could specify patches to apply ontop of sources in a builtin way
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<gchristensen>
I've been using ConditionACPower on a bunch of units, and I realized today that if that condition fails and then becomes true, systemd doesn't go starting those services
<gchristensen>
just like it doesn't go stopping them when the condition stops being true
<gchristensen>
I think I probably want a udev rule and have like, ac-power.target and battery.target, and use WantedBy and Conflicts to setup these rules the way I actually intend
<__monty__>
Re window switching for irc. I've taken to using /wg NN and /msg #channel My important opinions.
<gchristensen>
I try to use /query over /msg as often as possible
<adisbladis>
Emacs zealot time: I use `C-x b` ;)
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<gchristensen>
because if I accidentally do ` /query adisbladis` (leading /) I haven't typed anything which I meant to send privately, only have leaked the intent to message adisbladis privately
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<__monty__>
Yeah but this is /msg for public messages to channels : ) So you don't have to switch at all.
<__monty__>
I mostly use it with channels in the same window.
<gchristensen>
whoa
<drakonis>
wow the shell completion needs some love
<joepie91>
your message will actually bridge incorrectly
<joepie91>
(the bridge will use the `body`)
<__monty__>
Oh, huh, the bridge uses mIRC formatting codes or something?
<joepie91>
__monty__: no, but Matrix clients typically support Markdown. regular Riot converts this to HTML for `formatted_body` and uses the original Markdown for `body`, but some other clients generate HTML for `formatted_body` and then strip out the HTML and store the plaintext in `body`
<joepie91>
the IRC bridge is written with the assumption that the `body` contains the message in plaintext, as it is to be bridged
<joepie91>
so if the client blindly interprets monty as Markdown... it converts it into bold monty on the Matrix side, and regular monty on the plaintext body ie. IRC side
<joepie91>
(in fact, in the above message it still renders as bold monty for me, but Riot does include the underscores in the plaintext body)
<__monty__>
Yeah but jtojnar's mention of me is bold too.
<joepie91>
this is a bit of a rough edge in the Matrix ecosystem right now, it's not been defined quite well-enough what the body and formatted_body are expected to contain
<joepie91>
oh, huh, really?
<__monty__>
Yeah, it's definitely bridged as bold.
<joepie91>
maybe it started bridging markup recently
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<joepie91>
it's done so in the other direction for a while
<joepie91>
ie. mIRC color codes -> HTML markup
<joepie91>
but HTML markup -> mIRC color codes is new to me :)
<joepie91>
(I use a different bridge, which may be an older version)
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<__monty__>
But it doesn't have the *bold* or _bold_ syntax that irc clients typically bold. Hence my assuming it's using mIRC format codes or something.
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<__monty__>
Oh, _underline_ rather, which is interpreted as bold in markdown.
<joepie91>
yeah it would be in that case
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<manveru>
oh hey, irccloud is back
<manveru>
that was like a day of outage :P
<gchristensen>
wow.
<gchristensen>
:o
<aleph->
Alright seems my day is filled with helm
<aleph->
What a joy
<aleph->
manveru: Oh irccloud was down? Explains why my mate wasn't on
<waleee-cl>
it was a repeat of their ISP issue from the beginning of the year
<waleee-cl>
(the ISP apparently can't get technicians to their datacentre until the next day for reasons unknown)
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<joepie91>
waleee-cl: doubt on "their datacentre"
<waleee-cl>
* the ISP's datacentre
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<eyJhb>
worldofpeace and ashkitten what Windows managers did you use, e.g. i3
<ashkitten>
did i?
<eyJhb>
Noo, but you used something?
<eyJhb>
/use
<ashkitten>
like, past tense?
<ashkitten>
at what point in time are you asking about
<ashkitten>
i have used i3, i currently use sway
<eyJhb>
Like current WM :)
<eyJhb>
Ahh, damn, thanks :)
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<gchristensen>
anyone a big fan of game of thrones?
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<cransom>
i enjoy it
<bqv>
I liked it
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<eyJhb>
gchristensen: I feel asleep at the season three season finale, and couldn't watch it anymore after that
<eyJhb>
To fish or not to fish, that is the questoin
<eyJhb>
question*
<eyJhb>
Might run it for a while I guess
<__monty__>
Do eeeeeet!
<eyJhb>
I got close to being hit today for talking about NixOS bqv (in regards to the kicking)
<__monty__>
lol
<samueldr>
I don't follow, is a community kicking people that are NixOS users?
<eyJhb>
No no, friends who hate their friend talking about NixOS are samueldr
<bqv>
eyJhb: oh yikes
<bqv>
Haha
<eyJhb>
:D
<samueldr>
this almost sounded like the enemy of my enemy is my friend
<bqv>
I get the same whenever I mention emacs…
<eyJhb>
bqv: I will kick your .... :p
<eyJhb>
I wonder if you find enough "try this online in a shell", how much computing power one could have?