gchristensen changed the topic of #nixos-chat to: NixOS but much less topical || https://logs.nix.samueldr.com/nixos-chat
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<cole-h> lol
<cole-h> if you click on a bot's picture in GH's notifications, it takes you to `github.com/botname[bot]`, which doesn't exist
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<energizer> joepie91: jtojnar: fyi re MDX https://twitter.com/zeeg/status/1278553788631019526
<eyJhb> It is weird hearing the good ol' sound of Windows XP
<colemickens> "OpenPGP.js is a JavaScript implementation of the OpenPGP protocol"
<colemickens> okay
<etu> 😱
<eyJhb> colemickens: "State sponsered hackers, are hackers sponsored by the state"
<eyJhb> There are many such goodies around, where it is obivious :p
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<Philipp[m]1> colemickens: Thanks! I'll check out buku.
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<jtojnar> joepie91: yeah, it looks like block tags need to be separated by a blank line from both sides
<jw358> how come some derivations like docker-compose pollute my shell
<jw358> with python
<jtojnar> joepie91: which is consistent with commonmark spec I think
<eyJhb> ,base32
<eyJhb> > base32
<{^_^}> undefined variable 'base32' at (string):318:1
<eyJhb> What is the damn command :p
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<infinisil> eyJhb: Which one?
<infinisil> Can't remember seeing a base32 one
<adisbladis> jw358: Because everything built with python propagates PYTHONPATH
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* gchristensen wants to play with kerberos
<gchristensen> am I sick for thinking so?
<srk> no, ldap is much worse
<gchristensen> oh well I want to do both
<srk> +1, I was playing with such from scratch and also using FreeIPA
<makefu> gchristensen: you definitly have some masochistic tendencies, first bare-metal install, now ldap/kerberos ;)
<ixxie> I've had traumatic experiences, but AD was involved so maybe its not so bad in itself
<ashkitten> !!!!! valve index out for delivery
<Philipp[m]1> Nice! Really enjoyed playing with that thing back when I had it.
<eyJhb> infinisil: There was one just being 0's I think, but may have been another command to generate it
<infinisil> > lib.fakeSha256
<{^_^}> "0000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000"
<infinisil> eyJhb: ^
<infinisil> Or
<infinisil> ,tofu
<{^_^}> To get a sha256 hash of a new source, you can use the Trust On First Use model: use probably-wrong hash (for example: 0000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000) then replace it with the correct hash Nix expected. See: tofu-vim
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<eyJhb> infinisil: ahh yes :D If we can't TOFU, then we are F'ed at some point
<eyJhb> I cannot count how many, invalid base32 I have gotten..
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<srhb> gchristensen: Fwiw the freeipa PR is basically mergeable at any one point for basic functionality, if you're looking for systems level stuff.
<srhb> Or, well, it has conflicts, but it's easy to fix up and use.
<gchristensen> link?
<{^_^}> #22789 (by e-user, 3 years ago, open): freeipa: init at 4.4.3
<gchristensen> 3yrs :o
<srhb> Yeah, I think everyone is too scared to touch pam stuff :P
<srhb> Anyway, it was workable less than a year ago :)
<gchristensen> oh, pam? *closes tab lol*
<gchristensen> (kidding)
<srhb> :P
<srk> oO, freeipa, wow
<srhb> It's not.. Great... But it works :P
<srhb> And it is an easy way to hook up krb auth
<srhb> Maybe there's an even easier way.
<srk> I guess it doesn't really use the mad setup script as the original one
<srk> yup, neat!
<srhb> Oh yeah, that stuff is fun
<srhb> "do 1000 lines of bash and we promise :haha: all will be good"
<srhb> It even has rollback
<srk> :D
<srhb> Sort of.
<srhb> :P
<srk> imagine trying to run that on openvz vm :D
<srhb> eeeek
<srk> it worked after lots of fixes and hacks
<srk> cool that NixOS can do all that, cli and webui of FreeIPA are nice
<srhb> Don't think the webui is in. But maybe I'm wrong.
<srhb> But yes, it's pretty okay.
<drakonis> haha, i'm checking the nixos website again and wow, this is one hell of an improvement
<drakonis> i just linked to the website and it convinced someone to check it out
<srk> srhb: if it's java it should be easy to add
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<ixxie> I donno, I think the new site is probably better for new people but its a little bit hard to get at the things I need
<gchristensen> ixxie: like the package and option search?
<gchristensen> or manuals?
<ixxie> Manuals for Nix/OS/Ops and search yes
<ixxie> I can see why the previous navigation might have been overwhelming for newcomers though
<ixxie> maybe a single top-level 'reference' page with all that stuff linked could work
<ixxie> then I could bookmark that page
<srk> I was looking for manuals today as well, maybe dropdown on Learn button?
<sphalerite> I just type "opti" in my browser bar and get it from the history :p
<gchristensen> try the Learn button, ixxie?
<sphalerite> or "nixos/man"
<sphalerite> (or nixpkgs/man or nix/man)
<gchristensen> ah missing some stuff, looks like that page is still wip
<ixxie> oh
<ixxie> Learn page is good, but I guess the name was counterintuitive
<ixxie> but I guess its not bad, maybe I was just blind
<ixxie> Maybe labeling the sections that link to documentation documentation would be helpful
<ixxie> then the headers could be links as well
<gchristensen> would you be up for sending a PR?
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<ixxie> gchristensen: yes!
<ixxie> Im on vacation so gladly
<gchristensen> nice!
<gchristensen> github.com/nixos/nixos-homepage
<drakonis> the current homepage has a missing feature
<drakonis> the services list is stowed away
<drakonis> and there's no search bar in the landing page for it either
<drakonis> ah its mentioned already
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<ixxie> why does starting the nix-shell for the nixos-homepage seem to be a waaay heavier build than anything I have build this year including the NixOS ISO
<samueldr> what do you mean "way heavier build"?
<samueldr> though recently a bunch of things were added that might have increased the closure size a bunch I think
<ixxie> seems to be building C++ toolchain
<ixxie> libutil stuff
<ixxie> I donno much about it
<samueldr> that doesn't sound right
<ixxie> but its been over five minutes and my fan is blasting
* samueldr pulls and checks
<ixxie> I think its building Nix from scratch
<ixxie> o.o
<samueldr> it seems that yes, it will build nix /nix/store/7c5wrh7bpx4pq0yscfjyysmicwjbz7dy-nix-2.3.6.drv
<samueldr> but it's among the only two things built
<samueldr> the other is its tarball
<samueldr> so basically the only one on my side
<samueldr> everything else is downloaded
<ixxie> but is that overkill? I mean, why build Nix for the website?
<samueldr> not sure, but I think it's related to releasing the nix tarball
<samueldr> or maybe not
<samueldr> looking into it
<ixxie> 20m it took on my poor little laptop
<samueldr> looks like it's for the manual
<samueldr> ixxie: you're ixxie on github too, right?
<samueldr> nixos-homepage#493 ixxie
<{^_^}> https://github.com/NixOS/nixos-homepage/issues/493 (by samueldr, 17 seconds ago, open): Builds and shell builds the whole of nix for its manual
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<ixxie> samueldr: yep
<ixxie> cheers!
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<ixxie> gchristensen / samueldr - is there a main responsible for the website?
<ixxie> okay then
<ixxie> I can ask you both about this :D
<ixxie> I'm trying to understand what the goals of this website in general, and this page in particular are
<ixxie> Thinking in terms of UI/UX design, what are the personas?
<ixxie> I can think of three main personas
<ixxie> 1. NixNoob 2. NixUser 3. NixDev
<samueldr> ixxie: some of that was discussed previously in meetings, and is being worked on
<ixxie> cool
* samueldr tries to find in which meeting the target public was decided
<samueldr> target audience*
<samueldr> >> Last time we said one of our target audience are developers, we discussed this a bit and our target group are not only developers but advance users, which we classified as users that are familiar with command line. This includes developers, sysadmins, …
<samueldr> the landing page is not for people already knowing about Nix
<samueldr> though I guess that doesn't answer how the remainder of the website should present itself
<samueldr> as far as *design*, it's something that is going to be discussed later on, it's been decided that for the near future no *visual* changes are to be made, visuals being a goal for a later still not far future
<samueldr> but that's only about the "coat of paint", organization is pertinent
<ixxie> I actually did some tweaks on the Nix logos a while back but never got that finalized
<samueldr> you might want to read the announcement, and get in touch with the team
<ixxie> the announcement you linked just now?
<ixxie> cool
<ixxie> I guess I would like to sign up if the meeting cadence isn't too intense
<samueldr> almost every two weeks
<ixxie> thats okay
<samueldr> sometimes a week ends up being skipped
<samueldr> for ~1 hour
<ixxie> and I guess I can commit to work depending on my situation at hand?
<samueldr> yeah, it's not like accepting a job
<ixxie> should I submit my application by replying to that announcement thread or is there a better way?
<samueldr> >> To join the team please write an email to webmaster@nixos.org trying to answer the following questions:
<ixxie> right
<ixxie> I missed that
<ixxie> I will do so
<samueldr> no worries
<ixxie> :)
<energizer> is there a way to say "these are the containers i want. these are the computers i have. distribute the containers across the computers somehow and keep them running."?
<energizer> in nix
<samueldr> is there in non-nix?
<samueldr> (that may help find solutions with nix)
<energizer> kubernetes, docker swarm, etc
<ixxie> energizer: there is kubernetes options for NixOS which are quite elaborate
<samueldr> right, that's really out of my wheelhouse, so I really didn't know if those did "that" or if they needed more input from the admin
<ixxie> energizer: cf #nixos-kubernetes
<energizer> i suppose that makes sense ixxie
<ixxie> energizer: particularly cool - they made an 'addon system' allowing you do define Kubernetes resources in Nix https://nixos.org/nixos/options.html#kubernetes.addonmanager
<ixxie> samueldr: orchastration system are defined by their ability to manage resources dynamically based on some loose parameters set by an admin
<ixxie> samueldr: like, have 2-5 copies of this service at any given time, rescale to meet request load and have one copy on each node at least
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<bkv> ok so
<bkv> i switched from exwm to xmonad, partly because emacs (and therefore exwm) is singlethreaded
<bkv> but it's become painfully apparent that xmonad is technically singlethreaded too
<bkv> maybe i should just keep trying to fix waymonad
<bkv> srk: oh i pushed that branch i had by the way
<danderson> gchristensen: I haven't, but we're doing something very different to that :)
<gchristensen> danderson: :)
<danderson> (I assume you're referencing bradfitz's tweet?)
<energizer> why do you need multiple threads in a window manager bkv?
<gchristensen> yeah
<gchristensen> danderson: I also like to simulate the internet.
<bkv> energizer: i'm upset that the tradition in xmonad is to have the bar as a separate process
<danderson> gchristensen: we just made the internet work!
<bkv> and taffybar is in haskell
<bkv> so reasonably, it should be possible to just forkIO it as part of an xmonad config
<danderson> it's the jankiest-ass thing ever, spawns one goroutine per packet transmitted
<bkv> but you can't because x11 is yike
<danderson> which is great for what we're doing, because we only care about correctness, and it avoids a ton of having to think about queues and stuff
<gchristensen> this is just like, simulating the internet in your code, right?
<srk> bkv: cool, ty!
<bkv> basically all left is to either update the parts of waymonad that use outdated wlroots apis, or downgrade wlroots and revert the hsroots updates
<srk> guess that depends on how much wlroots changed
<danderson> gchristensen: yeah, we're simulating network topologies entirely in Go code
<danderson> you create Networks, attach Machines to them. Some Machines can produce sockets for you (to let you dial out/listen/etc.), other Machines implement various NAT-ey behaviors
<gchristensen> gotcha
<danderson> and the sockets "just work", in the sense that packets move around in a way that makes intuitive sense for how it's wired up
<danderson> but we don't actually construct packets or anything, it's just function calls moving stuff around and doing route table lookups
<danderson> and we only do UDP, because the entire purpose of this is to test NAT traversal logic
<danderson> so, wire up a terrible network topology, fire up our NAT busting peers on both ends, and see if we can break through
<gchristensen> I have to wonder how well the simulator will match ̶t̶h̶e̶ ̶e̶n̶e̶m̶y actual systems
<danderson> well, two points: one, it's all just code, so we can emulate arbitrarily broken systems
<danderson> and the other is yeah, it probably won't match every system on the planet, but we can convincingly emulate the ~dozen or so topologies and NAT behaviors that matter, and measure our progress against getting through those
<danderson> (and guard our code against regressions for the obvious cases)
<gchristensen> that is cool
<gchristensen> and test in ms instead of tens of seconds
<danderson> and we can do it without requiring root or any complex setup - it's literally just a unit test that runs completely in-memory
<danderson> also the code is *joyously* terrible because we don't care about performance, so we can take all the shortcuts
<danderson> like, rather than deal with packet queueing, we just spawn one goroutine per packet so that it can block on doing the delivery
<gchristensen> yeah
<gchristensen> very cool!
<danderson> so we pay like 4k of stack per packet in flight, which is ridiculous... But we don't care! :D
<danderson> likewise, route lookups, you'd normally use pretty tries and complicated optimizations... But no, fuck it! linear scan through an array, from most specific to least specific prefix
<danderson> awful, awful performance, but it works, and it took ~2h to implement "the internet" and packet delivery over "the internet" :)
<gchristensen> nice
<bkv> yeah, i wanna carry on with updating waymonad, because it's the better option and i have already started, but i also don't even really know what i'm doing because i have no real idea how this works. also, having to use a nixpkgs from 2 years ago is an unpleasant solution, and it'd probably be the simplest way to get 2 year old wlroots building
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