<{^_^}>
nix#3416 (by Ericson2314, 2 days ago, open): WIP: more rust
<gchristensen>
we need to try that cxx thing
<danderson>
lol, life imitates trolling
<danderson>
but seriously, having just spent a day root-causing a problem down to a bug that's *the* perfect advertisement for the borrow checker... Yes, please
<cole-h>
I could actually contribute to nix itself if more parts move to Rust đź‘€
<gchristensen>
cole-h: you can already contribute to Nix :)
<cole-h>
I don't want to write C++ though :(
<cole-h>
I'm already writing Java for classes
<danderson>
Writing C++ is an amazing learning experience, and I never want to do it again
<gchristensen>
same
<danderson>
I heartily encourage everyone who isn't me to write some C++
<danderson>
... and then to stop writing C++ and use sensible languages
<gchristensen>
sometimes you've gotta pinch your nose and write some, though
<danderson>
Writing C++ is like driving one of those land speed record dragsters
<danderson>
it's a finely tuned, extremely precise and powerful machine, that is trying to kill you every second that you use it
<gchristensen>
works great as long as the ground is perfectly flat from months of painfully-slowly salt sludge, having its water evaporate out for miles?
<gchristensen>
oh
<gchristensen>
same thing sorta
<danderson>
"to write C++ safely, first go to a place where nothing can survive for very long without outside help"
<danderson>
yeah, sounds about right
<gchristensen>
I accidentally found myself at the bonneville salt flats once, the day after it rained -- which happened to be the day before the race. I got there just in time to see the setup crew show up and throw their hats down in frustration for missing their window :)
<colemickens>
He's doing the home automation thing, but with OpenHab and a custom Arduino project. It was fun to help him learn some things. I think ESPHome and Home Asssitant are considerably easier and a bit more sustainable going forward...
<drakonis>
how does anyone find a computer like that on ebay
<drakonis>
wtf
<colemickens>
So now my evening project is to try to fixup the Tor hidden service module so I can pre-specify a private key so I can ship him a RPi4 and be able to debug it without having to walk him through NAT settings and don't want to try to ship him a wireguard client.
<drakonis>
that rust rewrite tho
<drakonis>
it'd be a big ticket rust consumer
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<ashkitten>
what's the reason browsers don't allow regular tcp/udp sockets and only allow websocket connections?
<ldlework>
see WebRTC
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<ashkitten>
what do you mean?
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<MichaelRaskin>
ashkitten: because there are too many things that think «behind a home router = absolutely safe from malicious non-HTTP* connections»
<MichaelRaskin>
eyJhb: on the other hand, these words are not for the faint of heart, and definitely not for the weak of abs.
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<ashkitten>
the more services i self host the more i feel empowered but also i'm terrified it'll all come crashing down on me
<ashkitten>
i'm now hosting my own matrix, mastodon, and nextcloud. if my server went down i'd probably have very few ways to contact people
<ashkitten>
i might need to split up my infrastructure, but it's costly
<srk>
how much ram does it need?
<srk>
I'm considering moving such stuff to couple of rpi4s
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<eyJhb>
... I hate the postal service
<eyJhb>
Apparantly, if you receive something which is outside of the EU, it is under 100 EUR, they can just drop it off at your house wait 8 days, and then you receive a letter requiring you to pay tax of the item
<eyJhb>
You do not have to accept the item at all, and if you have throw it out, then you are screwed. So for 900 DKK, I can stack up a tax for someone for around 1750 DKK
<eyJhb>
> DKK 900
<{^_^}>
"3118509.000000 VND"
<eyJhb>
>DKK 1750
<eyJhb>
> DKK 1750
<{^_^}>
"6063767.500000 VND"
<eyJhb>
adisbladis ^^ :p
<gchristensen>
eyJhb: you can do it for way less than 900dkk :)
<gchristensen>
send an empty envelope and insure it for 900dkk
<eyJhb>
Well, that should work right?
<eyJhb>
Hmm. Wondering if they will just throw the case out, as it is empty
<eyJhb>
What about dirt :p
<eyJhb>
Insured to X DKK
<gchristensen>
it doesn't need to be heavy to be expensive
<eyJhb>
True
<eyJhb>
But is it just me, or does that not make sense at all?
<gchristensen>
sign your name, now it is a novelty beacuse you think you signature is worth a lot :P
<eyJhb>
Like, not giving the option to decline it beforehand
<eyJhb>
E.g. PostNord (the national postal service in DK) will not deliver until you have paid them. Whereas FedEX does not care
<Taneb>
Over my lunch break I made some notes about my Agda-in-nixpkgs-revamp plan, and I've been asking some questions in #agda. This feels possible!
<__monty__>
eyJhb: Why are you getting things delivered if you don't want them?
<eyJhb>
__monty__: website stated that a 25% was included in the price, it what however not. Received the package, didn't think of it, received tax letter 8 days later from the government stating I have to pay X. Package was already open, so cannot return it, and seller doesn't respond to emails
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<eyJhb>
So apparantly it is my fault
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<eyJhb>
Well... Nothing states when I own the package, which is weird
<MichaelRaskin>
Sounds like the seller is committing fraud?
<eyJhb>
Yup, pretty much
<MichaelRaskin>
I wonder how many people reporting them to police is needed for them to get problems doing any business (a) in Denmark (b) in EEA
<eyJhb>
A bunch, and most of the time they can and will do nothing
<eyJhb>
I have just started a complaint with PayPal
<eyJhb>
But I should focus on my keyboard stuff instead, else I might never get to use it
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<gchristensen>
"Say you want to change to the noop scheduler on the fly. To do this, you would issue the following command: sudo echo noop > /sys/block/hda/queue/scheduler" :D
<eyJhb>
Cool!
<gchristensen>
the recommended command doesn't work
<clever>
gchristensen: sudo never works with >, when will they learn! lol
<gchristensen>
maybe they need a very powerful echo :P
<eyJhb>
The biggest echos of them all
<eyJhb>
I have been sitting for 30 minutes, trying to figure out where to place my ctrl..
<__monty__>
: O PSA: eyJhb is currently out of control!
<eyJhb>
Well! Technically I have three controls atm! But soon I MIGHT BE!
<eyJhb>
Currently... scroll lock, control, super and switch to layer. All should be symetric on each side
<__monty__>
I hardly ever use the right-side modifiers.
<eyJhb>
But I rarely use the function keys. But mouse, songs, play/pause, etc.
<eyJhb>
Well, only need () now, final key and I am done
<eyJhb>
Or I could just accept 9, 0 shifted
<eyJhb>
seeing as I rarely use it anyways
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<infinisil>
Argh, haskell packaging with Nix is a hot mess
<gchristensen>
arianvp: I was actually just about to go for a coffee :)
<arianvp>
:)
<arianvp>
I suppose this ping is related to my tweet?
<gchristensen>
in this time of social distancing, I've been doing periodic "open video calls" where I go make a cup of coffee and chat, share a link, and say "anyone want a coffee?"
<gchristensen>
my camera isn't working for some reason
<arianvp>
can you hear me though?
<pie_[bnc]>
infinisil: thanks so its not just me then
<__monty__>
Ah, clearly a succesful coffeebreak. Click this mystery url. Oh I need to install a different browser. Ah my camera doesn't work anyway. Is this the future of social interaction? >.< Thankfully we're nerds and probably wouldn't mind solving a puzzle every time we want to take a break : )
<gchristensen>
the camera got sorted
<gchristensen>
I've been doing these types of calls all day, they've been really great and y'all should come to the next one!
<__monty__>
Oh I'm sure. Just sounded a little slapsticky : D
<gchristensen>
hehe, yeah it was certainly good timing to have my camera break
<__monty__>
I'm too shy : (
<gchristensen>
oh shucks
<gchristensen>
we're all friendly
<gchristensen>
btw if a USB device is acting up, you can force linux to reeenumerate it
<MichaelRaskin>
BTW, Talky.io is Firefox-friendly
<gchristensen>
cd /sys/bus/usb/drivers/usb;for f in *-*; do printf "%s\t%s\n" "$f" "$(cat "$f/product")"; done then echo 1-5 | sudo tee /sys/bus/usb/drivers/usb/unbind
<gchristensen>
then echo 1-5 | sudo tee /sys/bus/usb/drivers/usb/bind
<__monty__>
MichaelRaskin: "Send your room link to the people you wanna Talky with" >.> judging *so* hard.
<MichaelRaskin>
Haven't been to main page since forever, sorry
<MichaelRaskin>
Just generating random links locally (on the chat page there is little text)
<__monty__>
It looks perfectly simple tbh. Probably a great way to communicate with non-techy people. Not sure how I feel about webRTC tbh. And jitsi *is* foss afaik?
<MichaelRaskin>
It is. But somehow they decided to block Firefox
<gchristensen>
firefox hasn't been doing a good job with video calls lately imo
<gchristensen>
in my experience*
<MichaelRaskin>
In my experience, Talky + Firefox work fine
<gchristensen>
cool
<MichaelRaskin>
And if websites actively block Firefox, I would not say _Firefox_ is not doing a good job
<MichaelRaskin>
Some people like IE6 2.0 too much
<gchristensen>
jitsi doesn't block FF for me, just says it doesn't do a good job
<MichaelRaskin>
I cannot make it ask for camera access
<lovesegfault>
jitsi doesn't work on FF beta for me
<__monty__>
The intent is definitely to support firefox though.
<__monty__>
I suspect none of the devs are firefox users and they accidentally optimized it too much for chromium.
<samueldr>
it's as if making HTML5 a living standard was a mistake all along
<MichaelRaskin>
Uttering words «living standard» should be punishable with reading a dictionary aloud
<gchristensen>
+1
<samueldr>
MichaelRaskin: even in a quote-like context??
<samueldr>
which dictionary?
<MichaelRaskin>
Doesn't matter, it's punitive.
<samueldr>
hey now, making the dictionary a punitive measure is how you get people against opening a dictionary
<MichaelRaskin>
In a quote context you can include a remark that this is an oxymoron and quote a definition of «standard»
<andi->
Next step: The living TLS standard ;)
<samueldr>
andi-: next?
<andi->
well as in "written non-standard standard"
<samueldr>
I thought it was already the case just recently
<andi->
The Certificate requirements are most likely just being "made up" by the browser vendor(s)
<MichaelRaskin>
True, waiting for the outcome of Apple banning certificates longer than 13 months in Safari
<MichaelRaskin>
I have an impression that Talky.io people have implemented WebRTC in a reasonable (but sometimes a bit inefficient way) and do not touch what works reliably, and the rest overoptimise for Chromium.
<colemickens>
heh, they announced a new Remarkable :P
<colemickens>
Also, I'm sorry, but HN has been particularly unreadable the last couple weeks. Complete denialism, more heartlessness than usual, just awful.
<colemickens>
Just needed to vent that
<andi->
less internet :)
<drakonis>
colemickens: lobsters?
<colemickens>
Amen, I should head that, I have a project I want to focus on.
<yorick>
drakonis: I wouldn't say that's ever better
<colemickens>
drakonis: I visit it sometimes. I really don't care for the comments there either.
<yorick>
drakonis: the invite-only thing means way less expertise
<drakonis>
its less terrible than hn on average buuut its getting bigger
<drakonis>
hn being open to everyone means you get a lot more hot takes
<__monty__>
infinisil: Re haskell packaging being a mess. Other language packaging isn't a mess because it doesn't exist : D
<drakonis>
not saying lobsters can be a significant improvement
<MichaelRaskin>
__monty__: well, Common Lisp is just grabbing a subset of Quicklisp and converting, but there is upstream testing of each snapshot fitting well together
<__monty__>
MichaelRaskin: Talking about nix packaging specifically. Like the nixpkgs haskell infra or particularly haskell.nix.
<MichaelRaskin>
I mean, Quicklisp upstream is pretty convenient for converting to Nix, so the Nix packaging story is most of the time painless
<__monty__>
Hackage is actually really great. And stackage provides snapshots of hackage that try to guarantee all the packages in the snapshot build together.
<__monty__>
MichaelRaskin: The problem isn't nixifying haskell packages that's completely automatic.
<__monty__>
The problem is building 3 GHCs and all the supporting haskell.nix tooling *and* all the packages you need.
<lovesegfault>
gitlab search is so much better than github search
<lovesegfault>
I used it yesterday and was blown away
<lovesegfault>
I found what I wanted within the mountain of code that is glib in a second
<__monty__>
lovesegfault: Oh, do I have something for you : ) https://grep.app
<srk>
:) github search can't even do substrings
<lovesegfault>
__monty__: :O
<lovesegfault>
WAT
<__monty__>
If the repo you're interested in is indexed that works quite well.
<lovesegfault>
amaze
<clever>
__monty__: i typed in a 3 word sub-string of a random msg from a program i recently ran, and it found the exact file in seconds
<clever>
__monty__: typically, i would use `nix-store -qR` on the given binary, then grep -r every storepath to see which bin the string is in, then reverse lookup $src and grep that
<clever>
__monty__: but grep.app is just so fast, lol
<evanjs>
did not know this was a thing :O
<evanjs>
So much for dying bc github search doesn't support regex
<gchristensen>
also search.nix.gsc.io for NixOS specific stuff
<__monty__>
Ah, I originally heard about it from manveru.
<eyJhb>
TIL: wine bottles sucks as hammers.
<__monty__>
Hmm, IME they can get you pretty hammered.
<eyJhb>
Reminds me, I should get a glass of wine. Well deserved after that little project
<eyJhb>
However, I still need to cleanup.
<eyJhb>
Time for working on the layout a little longer
<__monty__>
Wine hammering and cleanup, sounds like you had quite the party there.
<eyJhb>
I just need to contain myself regarding the wine, I need to drive later tonight. So only a single glass anyways..
<MichaelRaskin>
Well, if you hammer nails with wine bottles, there will be a cleanup to do!
<eyJhb>
But it was becuase the stupid cat kept crawling inside the cabinet in the bathroom...
<eyJhb>
And she has a tendency to use her claws on the towels.
<eyJhb>
MichaelRaskin: it actually survived !
<eyJhb>
I do however wish I had a cheaper wine bottle with a flat bottom..
<MichaelRaskin>
That's good. Mostly because this means you have not got a glass cut today
<eyJhb>
I like the emphasis on _today_ :(
<eyJhb>
I have had my fair share of glass cuts and splinters. Used to make jewelry etc.with glass
<MichaelRaskin>
You know, not getting a glass cut ever requires qualities… not associated with hittong nails with bottles
<__monty__>
Ah, the old fake jewelry con.
<__monty__>
: >
<eyJhb>
I think you are asking waaaay too much of me. Next thing you are going to say is probably not to play with knifes while watching horror/shock films, right?
<eyJhb>
__monty__: especially since I was young and cute back then!
<eyJhb>
__monty__: I just need the ability to navigate files with one hand as well, generally my computer. Project for another day I guess
<__monty__>
eyJhb: Just install ranger : >
<eyJhb>
that doesn't help with moving windows, and navigating text files :p
<eyJhb>
I have ranger already
<ashkitten>
infinisil: with nixoses how do you deploy to the host you're working from?
<ashkitten>
do i need to make my ssh key log into root@localhost?
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<ashkitten>
looks like that worked
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<ashkitten>
i'm gonna probably take a lot of the deploy stuff straight from your system repo :p
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<cole-h>
colemickens: wtf the remarkable 2 is super cheap
<danderson>
"super cheap"
<danderson>
still ~$550 after accessories + tax
<cole-h>
Well, comparable to its predecessor
<samueldr>
599$CAD *sobs*
<danderson>
yeah, the price drop is very welcome
<danderson>
but it's still definitely a premium item
<danderson>
I don't think the price drop changes the way I think about it: "it's a significant investment, and you have to be sure you will use it"
<danderson>
(I preordered it, because it fixes *every* tiny complaint I have about my v1 - amazing iterative product design)
<samueldr>
is it as hackable as the v1? (was the v1 hackable?)
<danderson>
the v1 is *super* hackable. The "about" menu literally gives you the root@ SSH password
<samueldr>
good
<danderson>
I don't know if the v2 is the same. It *probably* is.
<samueldr>
is the v1 safe to tinker with?
<danderson>
The reason the v1 gives you root access is because they use GPLv3 software
<samueldr>
like, is there a DFU mode to reinstall if you break the IS?
<samueldr>
OS*
<danderson>
so the about section says "well, GPLv3 requires that you can deploy modified GPLv3 code onto the tablet, so fuck it, here's root@, have fun"
<samueldr>
nice
<danderson>
unless they removed all GPLv3 code from the v2, the same reasoning probably applies
<danderson>
and honestly they'd be stupid to abandon the OSS community that's formed around them
<MichaelRaskin>
Unclear what would be an incentive to do that, though
<danderson>
they're harmless to their "non-tech" customers, and they add value to the system overall
<danderson>
yeah, same. Based on the list of licenses in their compliance section, the tablet is pretty clearly running a buildroot or yocto rootfs
<MichaelRaskin>
I guess their marketing on _not_ providing a ton of functionality should work as a pretty strong shield about the hacked-onto stuff not working
<danderson>
so it would be a lot of work to cut out all GPLv3 code
<danderson>
and they probably have better things to do, like, make money :)
<danderson>
the only reason I could see for cutting off OSS acces is some kind of DRM support
<danderson>
e.g. if they want to support reading DRM'd ebooks (currently they don't)
<danderson>
but that doesn't seem to be the direction they want to go
<danderson>
if you want to read DRM'd ebooks, there's better ebook readers out there for that
<MichaelRaskin>
DRMed ebooks is boring, I have used a device where the reason getting root firmware took a long bargaining was that the default install included DRMed _dictionaries_ integrated with the reader
<eyJhb>
danderson: what have it changed compared to v1?
<danderson>
eyJhb: ~3x longer battery life, faster screen response (honestly this one is weird, because v1 is already so fast I can't see it)
<colemickens>
usb type c
<danderson>
and the tablet has a magnetic attachment for the stylus
<danderson>
yes, and USB type C
<danderson>
oh, also thinner than the v1
<danderson>
the v1 isn't *huge*, but it definitely looks like "my first prototype of a tablet"
<danderson>
the v2 looks much more polished
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<cole-h>
lovesegfault: ping
<lovesegfault>
cole-h: pong
<cole-h>
lovesegfault: Does your waybar unit segfault every once in awhile, or is it just me/my setup?
<samueldr>
what I actually wish for is a protocol for decentralized forges
<drakonis>
i find it to be better than octodroid
<MichaelRaskin>
samueldr: bugseverywhere? or just fossil?
<samueldr>
protocol, rather than one software, though I have to look at bugseverywhere to know
<samueldr>
and uh, I think I mixed myself up, not decentralized, the actual crux I desire would be federated, more than decentralized
<samueldr>
but both are desirable
<MichaelRaskin>
Well, there are some formats of storing issue tracking in a repo, and as for Fossil — well, it does document its formats
<samueldr>
does it make sense to use fossil with the source in another version control scheme?
<samueldr>
I mean, are there issues with doing that
<MichaelRaskin>
That no
<MichaelRaskin>
I think it is too integrated for that
<__monty__>
samueldr: Well that's a bit of a weird want. Why do you want specifically federation? Open or closed?
<samueldr>
identity not linked to the server that provides the forge service, mainly
<samueldr>
so I can open an issue without having to create an account for that nth forge
<samueldr>
I don't care about making an account at gnome's gitlab
<samueldr>
I don't want to make one
<samueldr>
(e.g.)
<cole-h>
drakonis: I have to pay for a dark theme? I'll stick with Octodroid
<samueldr>
not that gnome's alone is the issue, the issue is when it's being done multiple times
<__monty__>
samueldr: Wouldn't openID be sufficient for that? Most of them support oauth, no?
<danderson>
hah, "dark theme is a premium feature" is amazing pricing design
<samueldr>
that'd help
<samueldr>
but deeper integration, to link issues between forges
<samueldr>
with pings and such
<samueldr>
that's not part of openid
<drakonis>
cole-h: i didnt even see that, riiiiip
<MichaelRaskin>
At some point adding a DVCS on top of Matrix DAG sync will sound the easiest way to implment this integrated-federated-communication platform
<samueldr>
and another important part that should be part of this, but not sure where it stands: projects should be able to move from one hosted infra to another in a trivial fashion
<cole-h>
drakonis: I think that's why I dropped it last time. Octodroid = free dark.
<samueldr>
not about data portability, but URLs and references
<samueldr>
e.g. if a github-hosted project moves to gitlab
<samueldr>
it sucks
<samueldr>
if a gitlab.com hosted project moves to a self-hosted gitlab instance, it sucks
<MichaelRaskin>
samueldr: does this assume that you cannot use a hosted service without using your own domain?
<samueldr>
yes, I know it's by design that hosted platforms lock you in
<samueldr>
MichaelRaskin: I don't know
<samueldr>
I don't have a solution
<samueldr>
I have desires
<samueldr>
the federation may require cooperation in leaving "this project moved" notices
<MichaelRaskin>
OK, do you want URLs to be human-readable or abstract identifiers?
<samueldr>
what about both :)
<MichaelRaskin>
So, bring your own domain or go away
<srk>
I was running Pagure for some time, was nice as it worked with standard gitolite/git-daemon setup but python /o\. now it looks like even that one is doomed
<srk>
distributed / federated forge needed badly
<tilpner>
There'
<tilpner>
...s so much tooling around GH
<srk>
and?
<srk>
is it wise to vendor lockin on single platform?
<samueldr>
that doesn't make it right to allow them to keep our data hostage
<tilpner>
Even if federated forges were otherwise feature-complete, migrating NixOS to it would take forever
<srk>
despite distributed nature of git?
<tilpner>
No, I would use them for my own projects
<samueldr>
until they exist, there is no way it will happen
<samueldr>
so forever is better than never
<srk>
of course
<tilpner>
I'm not saying it's not worth doing, just appreciating the amount of work ahead
<samueldr>
and here I'm not insinuating anything for nixos
<samueldr>
I just have this desire since... well... since I started using a forge
<samueldr>
self-hosted is not enough
<tilpner>
Because there's talk of moving away from GH every now and then, but it ends pretty quickly
<gchristensen>
what was that languge and server and forge project ... tehy use nix and stuff.
<samueldr>
black website
<samueldr>
well, no colour
<gchristensen>
and a cool, fun name
<samueldr>
yep
<srk>
haha :D
<samueldr>
I know which one
<srk>
same
<gchristensen>
this is killing me
<samueldr>
WHEN WILL WE BE ABLE TO SEARCH FOR A WEBSITE WITH COLOURS
<colemickens>
WTAF. Facebook censored a simple NYTimes.com link post and told me it goes against Community Standards on spam and there's nothing I can do about it.
<colemickens>
And censored another of my posts as well.
<MichaelRaskin>
I guess NYTimes does not pay FB enough to allow links from NYTimes.com from Facebook