gchristensen changed the topic of #nixos-chat to: NixOS but much less topical || https://logs.nix.samueldr.com/nixos-chat
<cole-h> Yep, plays cello IIRC
<drakonis> i dont know what i expected, the name sounded like someone's rapper name
<gchristensen> ldlework: hah
<samueldr> it looked to me like that kid's show name
<samueldr> yo gabba gabba?
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<drakonis> it sounds like a novel way to say yo mama
<cole-h> haha
<adisbladis> Hm
<adisbladis> Sudo segfaults :(
<drakonis> say what
<cole-h> Can we switch to opendoas
<adisbladis> I'm thinking if it has something to do with pty allocation?
<adisbladis> Or the lack thereof
<tokudan> drakonis, there's actually a mod for rimworld that adds conveyor belts and something similar to inserters...
<drakonis> oh god...
<drakonis> the industrial nightmare spreads
<drakonis> im in
<cole-h> `nix repl '<nixpkgs>'` -> `builtins.removeAtt[TAB]` -> segfault in my custom built ISO
<cole-h> nice
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<cole-h> lovesegfault: Did you win in f@h?
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<lovesegfault> cole-h: no, I turned it off :P
<cole-h> :(
<qyliss> systemd shows "active (exited)" in green for a oneshot service that failed??
<qyliss> what a bizarre design
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<etu> qyliss: If the exit code was zero I would say that's fine.
<etu> qyliss: One shots are supposed to exit
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<adisbladis> qyliss: Did it run successfully before?
<gchristensen> spacex.com/webcast launc a minute ago
<gchristensen> or now?
<gchristensen> aborted
<__monty__> Too bad.
<__monty__> Weather?
<gchristensen> seems the engines were unhappy
<__monty__> Burn them!
<MichaelRaskin> Engine unhappiness has ways of becoming contagious, though
<gchristensen> adisbladis: reading reviews and comparisons of those two CPUs show 3900x >>>> 2920 except for things where the memory bandwidth is useful, and I'm still not sure :P
<adisbladis> Very hard to say
<adisbladis> gchristensen: Have you checked openbenchmarking?
<adisbladis> They have very revelant tests
<gchristensen> I haven't, I will!
<gchristensen> https://twitter.com/Nihan0311/status/1238966153281769474 Deutschland in Quarantäne
<MichaelRaskin> Bavaria: from Mon 16th all schools are closed. Also Bavaria: Sun 15th is the elections, no changes about that. University: All retakes are cancelled. Also University: nothing changes in administrative work, you know, where at-risk age staff takes physical paper documents from a ton of people.
<MichaelRaskin> It is hard to beat «we will screen all people from EU flights by putting them into a long line in a crammed space for a few hours», though
<gchristensen> yeah that was really amazing
<MichaelRaskin> We-ell
<MichaelRaskin> Not really amazing
<__monty__> How about the alleged attempt to bribe CureVac to move from DE to the US?
<gchristensen> I was amazed ...
<MichaelRaskin> It was a task of the same people who did the entire «we will confiscate random liquids under pretext of the liquids being possible explosives, and drop them in a thin-metal urn in from of a long queue we have created»
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<MichaelRaskin> Like, _how_ security theater people can produce anything _not_ defeating the stated purpose?
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<gchristensen> :
<gchristensen> :)
<ar> >It is hard to beat «we will screen all people from EU flights by putting them into a long line in a crammed space for a few hours», though
<__monty__> I think originally they were just naive and thought it'd help but then they saw 🤑 and figured "what the hey."
<ar> MichaelRaskin: that sounds like what happens regularly when landing at SFO
<adisbladis> US airports are pretty unique... You have to go through immigration even for transits
<MichaelRaskin> Well, this time the claim to be screening for a highly contagious disease
<adisbladis> That's not the case in pretty much the rest of the world
<adisbladis> And even for transit you need a visa
<adisbladis> Mind boggling...
<MichaelRaskin> Indeed. In Riga, I had even a transit situation where arrival and departure _were_ separated by Schengen-only zone without having a visa, well, even this wasn't really a problem
<MichaelRaskin> __monty__: I think you ascribe too much caring to people running the security theater, both before and after
<__monty__> What, they keep it up just to mess with people, not for the money?
<MichaelRaskin> They keep it up to inflate warm-body-count under their command, obviously
<__monty__> I doubt everyone involved realized the financial potential in advance though.
<MichaelRaskin> Yeah, bureaucratic was clearly more obvious
<MichaelRaskin> As for _everyone_ invlolved, well… The line officers probably just think that they are really unlikely to be in a situation to shoot an unarmed person, so, better job than police.
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<__monty__> Curious, felt like checking /etc/password on a mac. It has a ton of users defined. Among which things I don't even have installed indirectly afaik, like dovecot and ClamAV. Weirdest thing is my user's nowhere to be found in the file.
<LnL> osx uses a separate database for users
<LnL> dscl . -list /Users
<LnL> it's ldap under the hood I think
<__monty__> Yeah, figured. And have actually run into that before. Still kinda strange there's users defined for so many processes that I've never had running though.
<__monty__> I assume it has to do with apple blessing certain apps?
<LnL> there are a bunch of builtin users, generally prefixed with an underscore, but not sure where those you mentioned would come from
<__monty__> Also weird how /etc/passwd is kinda kept in sync but not quite.
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<LnL> I'm guessing that's probably manual for unixy things that depend on getent, etc.
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<LnL> eg. id nixbld1 looks up the user through pam/opendirectory but getent passwd nixbld1 doesn't
<viric> how can I know the closure of a nix-shell?
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<eyJhb> There is a dvorak layout for programmers, right?
<eyJhb> What is the difference between that and normal Dvorak? (US)
<gchristensen> the number row I think
<gchristensen> 24680 then 13579 for some reason
<viric> hand mandates the last bit
<eyJhb> So, it is the number row which is switched?
<MichaelRaskin> Well, 0 and 1 are probably standing out even more in programming than in normal use
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<infinisil> eyJhb: The main thing is that without shift, the number row are symbols
<infinisil> not the numbers
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<infinisil> &[{}(=*)+]!# <- my number row without shift
<infinisil> %7531902468` <- my number row with shift
<cole-h> Poor modulo :(
<infinisil> The number thing is a bit weird, but I'm used to it now
<etu> eyJhb: You're confusing Dvorak with Simplified Dvorak
<infinisil> Symbols without shift is awesome though
<etu> eyJhb: Simplified Dvorak has the number in numeric order while Dvorak doesn't
<infinisil> etu: According to wiki at least, Simplified Dvorak is nowadays known as the normal Dvorak, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dvorak_keyboard_layout#Original_Dvorak_layout
<etu> infinisil: yeah, the other one kinda... never took of I think
<infinisil> I've been wanting to make my own layout, with super key combos and prefixes and stuff
<infinisil> But that gets really complex and it's hard to know where to start
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<__monty__> I think the original dvorak number row only makes sense if you type a lot of numbers.
<__monty__> Which makes it kinda curious that programmer dvorak kinda stuck with the idea.
<MichaelRaskin> If you use computers to, oh the heresy, compute?
<__monty__> Not sure, for serious number work I suspect the numpad is the way to go. I was thinking more of historians who have to talk about dates a lot or maybe drafters who have to list a ton of dimensions or product managers who have to handle IDs with mixed numbers and letters.
<MichaelRaskin> I think numpad is best for one-handed work
<MichaelRaskin> Another hand either for mouse or for paper documents
<__monty__> Yes, "documents"...
<__monty__> #numberphileisarespectablechannel
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<ashkitten> programmer dvorak has numbers mixed in with the letters doesn't it?
<ashkitten> i figured that was unnecessary so i just learned normal dvorak
<ashkitten> (i gues simplified)
<__monty__> No, they're on the number row, but even->uneven, rather than 1-9,0 or just mixed according to frequency like original dvorak.
<ashkitten> oh i see
<ashkitten> yeah anyway given the amount of times i use the number row for things that are not numbers, i'm glad i chose simplified dvorak
<gchristensen> I nope'd out when I saw the number sreordered :P
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<gchristensen> anyone familiar with microphones and setup for recording grand pianos? I'm looking to do live music in the age of COVID-19 with a medium-modest budget :)
<__monty__> No midi output?
<gchristensen> not on this one :)
<MichaelRaskin> Live FFT to recognise the chord
<__monty__> gchristensen: Then replace it with this one: https://www.roland.com/global/promos/piano_design_awards/facet_grand_piano/
<gchristensen> haha, definitely in my medium-modest budget :P
<ashkitten> "live music in the age of..." meaning streamed from your home?
<gchristensen> yeah
<ashkitten> there are probably resources for figuring out microphone placement and whatnot but i don't know where to look
<ashkitten> probably youtube
<gchristensen> yeah, I'm sort of looking for specific recommendations of microphones based on experience
<aleph-> I need to grab a mic finally. Set up voice recog for my home assistant setup
<ashkitten> the mycroft mark 2 is delayed till next year lol
<aleph-> Meh, who cares. Don't need anything fancy. Just gonna use rhasspy
<ashkitten> it was originally slated to be shipping in november 2018
<ashkitten> yeah i only care because someone backed it and will be getting me one
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<cole-h> gchristensen: 👀 If you do stream it and I'm not here, I hope you save a recording and upload it somewhere I can watch
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<gchristensen> cole-h: cool :)
<samueldr> while we're behind most in numbers, we're already taking measures limiting social exposure https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/montreal/quebec-covid-sunday-1.5498405
<samueldr> it'll be interesting to compare doing this early rather than late
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<__monty__> Let's hope you pull a Taiwan.
<samueldr> might be hard considering the federal government doesn't want to allow closing down unneeded international travel
<MichaelRaskin> Does pulling a Taiwan includes digging a strait? Because it seems to be an integral part of Taiwan's strategy…
<samueldr> the provincial government already stated that they have the authority and will isolate cities or regions if needed
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<MichaelRaskin> Hm, interesting. Apparently by being small Bahrain has higher per-capita testing numbers than South Korea?
<__monty__> It's one of the reasons belgium's high in many rankings too.
<MichaelRaskin> Doesn't look that high
<samueldr> french government seems to recommend not using NSAID (e.g. ibuprofen, advil; naproxen, aleve) while they look into possible issue
<samueldr> (issue with COVID-19)
<MichaelRaskin> Weird that there is no rush to scale up testing in EU.
<MichaelRaskin> (One could also expect a confidence-building measure of announcing what measures are taken to obtain more technical breathing aids)
<samueldr> can they? I think it's been the issue, limited capacity to test, and limited amount of kits
<samueldr> at least here it is an issue
<adisbladis> Heh
<LnL> lol
<MichaelRaskin> That's how implied opinions get on record
<MichaelRaskin> samueldr: looking at Korea's scale, I would expect that they just traded off getting things done vs full formalities and started using whatever sequencing machinery they could grab.
<samueldr> new measure just announced, publicly-funded day care are opened exclusively for workers in the health networks, and first responders, and supporting staff, even for those who were not using those services
<samueldr> (without additional costs)
<MichaelRaskin> Sounds like a natural measure to avoid collapse
<samueldr> yep
<samueldr> MichaelRaskin: I was thinking more about how I've heard china has been testing, the swab only happens once a quick CT scan of the lungs has been made to check for telltale signs
<samueldr> they have CT equipment that allows making it in-situ, rather than bringing the patient in a big thing
<samueldr> those machines allow order of magnitude more patients to be screened for the next step
<samueldr> here our equipment can't be used that way
<samueldr> I wonder if korea has the same kind of equipment that helps not using the limited testingcapacity
<MichaelRaskin> I think for zero-level sorting of the low-suspicion crowd they just used human judgement as the first step.
<MichaelRaskin> But it looks like they did a ton of real tests, too
<cole-h> adisbladis: Savage
<cole-h> But unfortunately not incorrect
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<cole-h> https://paste.rs/LrH.jpg GH, you okay? 🤔
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<danderson> adisbladis: happy to talk more if you have questions :)
<adisbladis> I think most of my questions would be related to how hackable the device is :>
<adisbladis> For context: https://remarkable.com
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<danderson> ah, well, I don't know about that yet :)
<danderson> Maybe someday, when I've run out of other things to do :)
* adisbladis is dreaming of a collaborative notepad
<__monty__> adisbladis: Doesn't cryptpad or etherpad do that?
<danderson> list of APIs, toolkits, and various on-tablet linux hacks
<adisbladis> __monty__: As in not on an LCD
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<danderson> looks like there's basically no boot lockdown, just a question of finding the magic door to get into the shell :)
<danderson> and other people have figured it out, it seems
<danderson> looks like people have figured out ssh access, so from there the world is yours :P
<adisbladis> Sweet :)
<danderson> just need a tiny bit of SDK to support the weird eink refresh model
<danderson> because it's trying to be like paper, you can erase specific pieces of the page
<danderson> which can cause some weird artefacting for 1-2s while the OS does the full e-ink page refresh to remove things
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<danderson> it's kinda cool, at first it looks like you've used an eraser on pencil writing. The writing goes away, but there's still a faded outline visible for a bit
<__monty__> Hmm, weird. I thought that was an inherent attribute of e-ink. That you could address specific regions.
<danderson> then the tablet does the full eink refresh, and it goes away
<danderson> it is fully addressable, but to get a "perfect" deletion you have to toggle black-then-white a couple of times
<__monty__> Ah, complete clearing requires a higher voltage or something?
<adisbladis> Ohh, looks like you can even use Qt <3
<danderson> yeah, something like that. I don't know the details
<adisbladis> I told myself I wouldn't buy more stuff any time soon....
<danderson> but the tablet tutorial says "hey when you switch pages or erase stuff, your screen might flash black briefly. That's normal, that's how eink works"
<danderson> adisbladis: I will say, the tablet is *really* expensive for what it it.
<danderson> so, it's definitely a luxury.
<danderson> if I had to give it up now, I would probably not miss it in 2 weeks. But now that I have it, I use it every day.
<adisbladis> That's the other thing I'm afraid of, that it would end up getting unused.
<danderson> and I know people who use it to read RFCs and scientific papers, and they love it for that. Like a hackable kindle.
<adisbladis> At 500 USD I really wanna be certain
<danderson> so far I use it only for notes. Although I have to write a couple of blog posts soon, and I might try drawing diagrams on the tablet as well
<danderson> yup, it's a difficult purchase. Can't really test it, so you have to kinda jump and hope you like it...
<danderson> they do have 30 days no-questions-asked returns, so that's one option
<danderson> but be careful, with the pandemic right now their shipping was very delayed
<danderson> I ordered it early Feb, it arrived early March
<danderson> so if you decide to try it, and shipping is slow, contact their support and tell them you want to change the start of the 30 days to when the tablet ships
<danderson> they default to "when you click the buy button"
<danderson> in my case, it took ~30 days from that point until they shipped it, so...
<{^_^}> puppetlabs/vault-plugin-secrets-oauthapp#4 (by grahamc, 10 seconds ago, open): `oauth2: server response missing access_token` for the GitHub provider
<gchristensen> adisbladis: in case you were looking at that
<gchristensen> FYI: if a user PM's you about being unbanned, please don't engage. If you have questions, I can answer them.
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<gchristensen> social distancing question -- is it inappropriate to go visit my brother in his home, 1:1?
<samueldr> depends of your social proximity before and after I guess
<samueldr> plural your
<danderson> "social distancing cohorts" - small groups that distance from other groups but mingle with each other - has a minimal impact on the effectiveness of distancing
<danderson> so, depends on the total number of people you both interact with
<gchristensen> good point, I'm not sure how strict he's going to be
<samueldr> interact_ed_ and _will_ interact
<gchristensen> right. he's seen a lot of people.
<MichaelRaskin> For future interactions, you might want to also weight by age
<cole-h> gchristensen: (moving here cuz mostly not Nix related) How does the recommended `atime=off` setting affect things in general?
<cole-h> The wiki notes "might confused some software like mailers", but was wondering if you'd run into any issues related to that (or if you use atime=off at all)
<gchristensen> I use atime=off always
<danderson> I run all my filesystems with noatime, and I've never had any problems
<danderson> if you want a halfway measure, use relatime instead
<gchristensen> *some* software uses atime for logical purposes, but as far as I can tell it is almost exclusively atime
<gchristensen> *some* software uses atime for logical purposes, but as far as I can tell it is almost exclusively mailers
<danderson> it's an optimization that updates atime way less frequently
<danderson> so you still get roughly useful atime info, without nuking the filesystem updating atimes
<MichaelRaskin> I wonder if relatime is the default by now
<cole-h> Any way to see if my current fs uses atime=off (ext4)? Been a while since I set it up...
<cole-h> Oh
* cole-h just looked in /etc/fstab and saw noatime
<MichaelRaskin> Heh
<cole-h> That answers that, I guess. No real reason for me to be worried
<gchristensen> it turns out atime is a bit of a bad idea
<cole-h> And apparently you can change compression algo on the fly-ish, so that's another concern dealt with
<MichaelRaskin> Good idea, but unscalable
<cole-h> (I want to use zstd once it merges)
<gchristensen> back in 2h
<gchristensen> nice to chat about fire suppression, danderson :P
<danderson> in general, ZFS responds to config changes by applying the new config to newly written data, but not touching the old data
<danderson> so you need to do something expensive like zfs send | zfs receive to a new dataset if you want to "upgrade" all your data
<danderson> which is kinda annoying, but understandable. They want to prioritize not destroying the system's I/O bandwidth with maintenance tasks
<cole-h> Yeah, that's what I meant with the `-ish` -- apparently you can `zfs send` and `zfs receive` to recompress
<cole-h> According to a stackexchange site
<danderson> yup. But my take is: probably not worth it for many situations
<danderson> unless you have highly compressible data and it's suuuper expensive to store (e.g. an all NVMe flash array)
<danderson> I'd just eat the loss and only optimize the new data
<danderson> the problem with send|receive, is that you need 2x the storage while you do that, I believe
<cole-h> Oh, true. Something I didn't think of.
<cole-h> Magically compress data in-place >:(
<danderson> you can't make it do the work in place, you have to construct a new dataset on the side, cut over all users, and then delete the old one
<danderson> Weirdly, there's no reason zfs _couldn't_ do it in-place. It's already a COW system, so it'd just be a question of writing out new blocks (with the new settings) and updating the hash trees
<danderson> and then garbage-collecting the old data
<danderson> but ZFS is developed by pretty specialized storage companies, and they don't need that... So it's not in there
<danderson> from their perspective, it's okay to say "I'll just send|receive everything to the new storage box and decommission the old one"
* colemickens swears the irc bridge drops messages sometimes, or the scrollback is confusing and I'm missing something
<danderson> which bit are you missing?
<colemickens> Trying to figure out what you had shipped?
<colemickens> Something about a tablet, maybe just an old conversation that I caught the end of, just being nosy.
<danderson> oh, right, that conversation happened across 2 channels + twitter
<danderson> I'm shitposting on twitter about setting up nixos on my laptop, and I posted some shots of my setup notes
<danderson> I'm taking notes on a reMarkable tablet (remarkable.com), an e-ink tablet you can write on
<danderson> its claim to fame is that its screen texture is very paper-like, so it feels like writing on paper, except it's not paper :)
<danderson> and being eink, you can actually just scribble as if it were paper. There's no perceptible lag between writing and the screen updating to reflect your write, because the e-ink display can toggle invidual pixels very rapidly
<danderson> compared to a traditional LCD's refresh rate
<danderson> (individually addressable pixels, so instead of redrawing the whole display, the tablet just sends a stream of "darken pixel X, Y, Z, A, B, ..." to the display
<danderson> It's got a fairly dedicated niche following as a device. Some people love it for reading PDFs and stuff, like you'd use a kindle. Except you can scribble notes as you read.
<danderson> I use it entirely for note-taking right now, and have used it daily since I got it 2wks ago.
<danderson> it's also quite hackable (it's basically linux with a fancy SDK for doing eink-appropriate graphics)
<danderson> so people have built various syncers, open source SDKs for making new eink-friendly apps, there's SSH access, etc.
<danderson> I haven't tried doing any of that yet, but it's a nice touch.
<danderson> colemickens: hopefully that helps fill out the context :)
<danderson> I'm very happy with it, but two downsides of note: it's quite expensive for what it is ($500), so unless you're going to use it frequently, I'd say it's not worth it
<danderson> and the stylus has consumable tips. To get the paper-like writing feel, the display is slightly abrasive, and the pen tips are a soft-ish plastic that ablates away as you write