<samueldr>
joepie91: an as in 1 or an as in everyone independently?
<joepie91>
samueldr: it's as close to a bathtub as you're going to get with inflatables. in terms of shape, but also in terms of having two air chambers to reduce the risk if something springs a leak (since the whole thing won't collapse), it has a backrest, etc.
<joepie91>
it's a really good idea and genuinely very comfortable
<joepie91>
with the tradeoff of being hard to clean and re-pack
<joepie91>
samueldr: everyone independently
<samueldr>
oh, so it's for those that don't have bath in their bathrooms
<joepie91>
anyway I googled "inflatable bathtub" for the lols 4 years ago to see if it existed
<joepie91>
"huh, it does. actually, this would be nice..."
<joepie91>
ordered one
<joepie91>
turned out to be great, recommended it to someone else
<joepie91>
also bought one, also found it great, and now it's snowballing
<joepie91>
samueldr: yeah
<joepie91>
I bought one in my previous house because it had a big bathroom but no bath
<joepie91>
and a floor drain
<samueldr>
I think what confused me the most initially is that I thought it was one common bathtub for revspace
<joepie91>
haha nah
<joepie91>
though that could work too, as a hot tub type deal
<joepie91>
it is meant to be usable outdoors also
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<vika_nezrimaya>
Hey gchristensen, here's a ZFS-related question for you! how much memory do you have on your laptop and how much of it ZFS takes for itself? How quickly could it release the aforementioned memory if your PC would suddenly need it for very important stuff (for example, running a very memory-hungry Java app that forces half of the system to the swap, including parts of itself)
<gchristensen>
16g, zfs will take up to 8 on my laptop based on how I configured it with the arc size, and it will release it quite quickly, though if the java program allocates all its ram in one go -> maybe not that quickly
<vika_nezrimaya>
For comparison, I have around 6G of RAM, .5G is hardware-reserved for the integrated GPU, and the app in question is modded Minecraft which grows its heap size as it boots up, up to a certain limit which happens to be a bit less than 4G for me
<vika_nezrimaya>
will I be ok using ZFS or am I better off using something... else?
<vika_nezrimaya>
I'm really worried about my Minecraft performance, I switched to Linux so it would run faster (spoiler: it does!)
<vika_nezrimaya>
my laptop is really cheap :c but it at least can run it
<gchristensen>
I don't know. I think it'd probably be fine, but I'm not an expert. I know that for example my rpi runs ~okay with it
<vika_nezrimaya>
ZFS on RPi? I assume an RPi4, did you pick a 4GB model?
<gchristensen>
3b+ actually
<vika_nezrimaya>
I have a 4GB one running on NixOS right now
<vika_nezrimaya>
3b+? And it runs fine with ZFS? Wow
<vika_nezrimaya>
what's your physical storage configuration?
<gchristensen>
on the pi?
<vika_nezrimaya>
on the pi
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<gchristensen>
uhh I suppose probably a small bit of mmc for the bootloader, and then the rest dedicated to a ZFS pool
<gchristensen>
at this point I'm not sure why I would use anything but zfs, and garage door openers need good filesystems too
<cole-h>
lol
<vika_nezrimaya>
so ZFS on an SD card. How's the wear? Mine can serve for more than a year with /var moved off the card onto an external hard drive
<vika_nezrimaya>
I wish I had a garage door to open but instead I have a blog to serve
<gchristensen>
I don't know about wear, I don't write much
<vika_nezrimaya>
/var/log is the main offender
<vika_nezrimaya>
usually
<vika_nezrimaya>
especially when your machine has a public IP and some attackers try to brute-force your root pw and you're too dumb or lazy to configure fail2ban
<vika_nezrimaya>
like me
<aanderse>
services.fail2ban.enable = true;
<aanderse>
:)
<aanderse>
but that only covers ssh
<gchristensen>
hrm since I open the garage door by SSH'ing in from my iphone, I might be having problems like that too
<aanderse>
probably
<cole-h>
gchristensen: lol really? I find that hilarious
<vika_nezrimaya>
aanderse: ssh is the main attack surface for me
<gchristensen>
haha, cole-h, yeah, me too
<gchristensen>
we should probably just accept the fact that the old checks API is being intentionally broken
<infinisil>
"For some reason it blocked me from sshing into the server from a certainsubnet"
<gchristensen>
that checks out, it uses iptables to ban your IP
<gchristensen>
anyway, it isn't good security anyway
<vika_nezrimaya>
is it temporary or permanent?
<gchristensen>
temporary
<samueldr>
vika_nezrimaya: you haven't met me
<samueldr>
sometimes it takes three sudo invocations before I can do the dang thing
<vika_nezrimaya>
I in fact did not, at least not IRL
<infinisil>
"This incident will be reported"
<vika_nezrimaya>
samueldr: lol
<gchristensen>
infinisil: riiiight to the bit bucket.
<samueldr>
good thing this never got me in trouble, I still don't know who it reports to
<vika_nezrimaya>
reported to whoever is producing these accidents
<vika_nezrimaya>
because you are the admin
<vika_nezrimaya>
the reported thing is there to scare a lamer, it just writes to the system log so an admin could revoke a lamer's access to the system if they try to mess with it too much
<cole-h>
John Conway talks about Go in the first 15 minutes :)
<drakonis_>
he looked well
<gchristensen>
> vom "infinisil is a hero"
<{^_^}>
"infinisil is a hero"
<drakonis_>
rainbow time
<infinisil>
\o/
<cole-h>
> vom "gchristensen is also a hero"
<{^_^}>
"gchristensen is also a hero"
<drakonis_>
> vom "y'alls heroes"
<{^_^}>
"y'alls heroes"
<infinisil>
> rainbow
<{^_^}>
undefined variable 'rainbow' at (string):301:1
<drakonis_>
say, i had a random thought just now, if nix was ported to other platforms, how would we ensure that the bulk of its available software worked fine in those platfroms?
<drakonis_>
platforms
<drakonis_>
is there an audience that isnt single digits?
<cole-h>
Single digits sounds optimistic
<cole-h>
:P
<drakonis_>
very
<samueldr>
I think the only way to know would be to try it, or even try to build it
<drakonis_>
hmm aight
<worldofpeace>
I see rainbow in nixos chat and I'm excited
<drakonis_>
feel the rainbow
<worldofpeace>
I am the rainbow, simply
<worldofpeace>
> vom "be nice"
<infinisil>
(you got a space before the >)
<worldofpeace>
> vom "be nice"
<{^_^}>
"be nice"
<worldofpeace>
matrix
<worldofpeace>
I kinda need to rename this command
<drakonis_>
> vom "be excellent to eacho ther"
<{^_^}>
"be excellent to eacho ther"
<drakonis_>
oops
<drakonis_>
> vom "be excellent to each other"
<{^_^}>
"be excellent to each other"
<cole-h>
> vom "✨ worldofpeace ✨"
<infinisil>
gchristensen suggested vom, but I have no idea what it stands for :P
<{^_^}>
"( worldofpeace ("
<cole-h>
I broke it again
<samueldr>
~~ unicode ~~
<cole-h>
infinisil: "vomit"
<worldofpeace>
> vom " bE eXCelLeNT"
<{^_^}>
" bE eXCelLeNT"
<cole-h>
Color vomit
<worldofpeace>
hence the taste the rainbow
<worldofpeace>
I'm claiming that
<infinisil>
> builtins.substring 0 1 "✨"
<{^_^}>
"("
<infinisil>
> builtins.substring 1 1 "✨"
<{^_^}>
""
<cole-h>
> builtins.substring 0 2 "✨"
<worldofpeace>
I am this commands keeper 😂
<{^_^}>
"("
<cole-h>
> vom "🌈 TASTE THE RAINBOW! 🌈"
<{^_^}>
" TASTE THE RAINBOW! "
<samueldr>
nix treats strings as byte
<samueldr>
bytes*
<infinisil>
Yet!
<samueldr>
you can't escape from that hell
<samueldr>
let me build something relying on that behaviour in nixpkgs
<samueldr>
so we can't have nice things
<worldofpeace>
infinisil: is this code in nixbot?
<infinisil>
worldofpeace: It's defined in its stateful environment with a few dozen assignments :P
<samueldr>
most things under ">" are things made with nix
<samueldr>
few dozens?
<samueldr>
many dozens I would have assumed
<infinisil>
Hehe something along those lines
<infinisil>
Anybody feel free to dig into the implementation with :v in #bottest
<worldofpeace>
here I am getting distracted by rainbows again 😁
<cole-h>
Wait, this isn't #bottest?
<infinisil>
> vom "Rainbow!"
<{^_^}>
"Rainbow!"
<cole-h>
Not very rainbow-y
* infinisil
is disappointed by the lack of red
<cole-h>
> vom "Rainbow 2: Electric Boogaloo!"
<{^_^}>
"Rainbow 2: Electric Boogaloo!"
<infinisil>
Noice
<cole-h>
infinisil: My mind is blown how they can leap from a big number to dark energy so seamlessly
<infinisil>
Hehe
<infinisil>
Definitely a bit of a stretch there, Tony sure likes his physics!
<cole-h>
Watching the TREE(3) video now. Watching him use sharpies on what looks like brown paper towel actually makes me shudder
<infinisil>
The Numberphile black hole has pulled in yet another victim
<cole-h>
Tired: Be productive and work on homework. Wired: Procrastinate and watch Numberphile until dinner.
<infinisil>
Alright, enough messing around, time for me to sleep
<infinisil>
> vom (retardify "enough messing around, time for me to sleep")
<{^_^}>
"enoUgh MeSSING AROuND, tIMe For ME tO SleEP"
<infinisil>
Haha I love this
<cole-h>
Hahaha
<cole-h>
See you tomorrow :)
<infinisil>
o/
<worldofpeace>
this conversation is going into my "nixos-chat" best screenshots
<cole-h>
LOL
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<drakonis_>
when 20.03's out, just set the topic to colored output
<cole-h>
👀
<worldofpeace>
drakonis_: I keeping you too this. should I change the news item on the website?
<drakonis_>
yes
<cole-h>
> vom (retardify "20.03 is finally out! Get it while the presses are hot!")
<{^_^}>
"20.03 IS FiNALly Out! geT iT whILe thE PRESsES ar...
<cole-h>
bruh
<drakonis_>
incredible
<drakonis_>
i'll take 10
<cole-h>
Why is there a string limit >:(
<cole-h>
> vom "123456789012345678901234567890"
<{^_^}>
"123456789012345678901234567890"
<cole-h>
not long enough
<cole-h>
I should probably go to #botspam
<drakonis_>
but our bot isnt here is it?
<cole-h>
Oh it's #bottest lool
<worldofpeace>
hmm, how do I run this by garbas...
<cole-h>
> retardify "cole-h"
<{^_^}>
"cOle-h"
<worldofpeace>
like, nothing screams "businsess ready" than this
<drakonis_>
hoho
<worldofpeace>
anyone in the org disagrees, I must warn them that since quarantine I've been studying the blade
<samueldr>
you have to cut things with the blade, not only read books, duh
<worldofpeace>
nixcon 2020: rainbow duel
<cole-h>
When is nixcon, usually?
<samueldr>
last few have been late october
<samueldr>
last two ended up being the same week-end as the clock thingamajig in autumn in Europe
<cole-h>
Hmmmmmmmmmmmmm
<samueldr>
(so north american inclined people could end up living through two of them!)
<cole-h>
I would have attempted to go this year when I applied to study abroad next semester
<cole-h>
But I doubt it'll be happening this year (in person, at least) for obvious reasons
<samueldr>
there's still no official word, as technically it can still happen timing-wise it's not too late to prep things, but I wouldn't bet on it happening either
<samueldr>
last time the discussion happened it was still early in the situation
<cole-h>
I wonder what a final semester study abroad would look like...
<samueldr>
it was unknown how it would resolve, or stay unresolved
<cole-h>
Understandably so
<cole-h>
Would be cool to meet some of you guys in person, though, considering how much time I've been spending around here recently
<samueldr>
all I can say is it was worth it both times I went
<samueldr>
(though stressful, prepping talks and such things!)
<cole-h>
Hehe, at this point I would definitely be an audience member
* cole-h
's real reason is to get his sticker that he earned fair and square from gchr*stensen
<samueldr>
and my first trip started in an amazingly bad way!
<cole-h>
Really? Sounds like story time
<samueldr>
two days before I was scheduled to leave I saw there was a new credit card added to my bank account
<samueldr>
got in touch with them and they were cancelling my "old" card due to suspicious activity
<samueldr>
(of unspecified kind)
<cole-h>
Uh oh
<samueldr>
though they said it would still work for the duration of my trip
<samueldr>
still, that leaves a bad taste
<cole-h>
Yeah, that is pretty scary...
<samueldr>
and then, the place we were going to stay, a couple people and myself, canceled the day before I was scheduled to fly out
<cole-h>
wot
<cole-h>
y tho
<samueldr>
because they suck, or I don't know
<samueldr>
:)
<samueldr>
at least the others were prepping all that
<cole-h>
Sorry for making you bring up such trauma... :P
<samueldr>
not traumatic
<samueldr>
it's a fun story
<samueldr>
it's not exactly over
<cole-h>
There's more?
<samueldr>
see, we had to fill an immigration card when getting there
<samueldr>
with the address where we're expected to stay
<samueldr>
uh oh
<samueldr>
it's not available offline on my devices
<samueldr>
I don't have a local sim card yet
<samueldr>
and the wi-fi portal was serving invalid https certificates!
<samueldr>
at heathrow
<samueldr>
but *only* to an ajax request, not to the portal page
<samueldr>
the portal page would show up and just hang!
<cole-h>
When it rains, it pours, I guess. That's actually crazy
<samueldr>
good thing I had my laptop and knew what to do, to find that info
<samueldr>
though I don't think I would have been stopped, only maybe held up for longer questioning
<samueldr>
meanwhile, flying into europe via France they didn't ask for anything, they only looked at my passport, asked from which airport I came and stamped me through
<cole-h>
Heh
<samueldr>
at least I now have a solid plan for that
<samueldr>
save that info offline on all my devices, and *print* an analog sheet of paper
<cole-h>
Analog!?
* cole-h
gasps in horror
<samueldr>
or i could have done it digitally
<samueldr>
using my digits to operate a pen
<cole-h>
Hahahaha you got me
<samueldr>
oh, and another "fun" thing that you may empathize more
<samueldr>
(more than european inclined folks)
<samueldr>
I wasn't sure my phone was carrier unlocked
<samueldr>
though the good thing is carriers are forced to unlock up north
<samueldr>
got on a chat with them, got the code, copied it to my phone, select it, copy, input the magic code to get in the menu
<samueldr>
that box with the unlock code doesn't allow pasting
<cole-h>
Boxes that don't allow pasting should burn in the underworld
<samueldr>
aggravating!
<cole-h>
Input boxes*
<cole-h>
What's the point!?
<cole-h>
Why exist
<samueldr>
SeCuRiTy
<cole-h>
Security my butt
<samueldr>
oh, and you have three tries and the phone locks itself
<cole-h>
.
<samueldr>
I hate phones :D
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<cole-h>
I agree
<cole-h>
Now, on another note, for you Haskell fiends out there: how does one represent two octals for the purpose of arithemtic in GHCi?
<cole-h>
Or rather, operate on them and print *also* as an octal
<drakonis_>
hoh, i found software that uses nix to build in the wild
<cole-h>
Answering my own question (though would like to know if there's a better way): `Text.Printf.printf "%o\n" (0o777-0o757)` does what I wnt
<cole-h>
s/wnt/want
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<colemickens>
cole-h: have you played with ion at all?
<colemickens>
I'm playing with fish after you mentioned using it earlier, but I figure if I'm going down this path, ion is a potential contender too?
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<adisbladis>
colemickens: Ohh, nice! Another reasonably looking non-posix shell =)
<adisbladis>
It's not exactly super nice for interactivity though :/
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<srk>
hnix: While evaluating at ./tests/files/loop.nix:117:24:
<srk>
Infinite recursion in thunk 704
<srk>
haha
<srk>
hah, terminal garbage collector via oom killer Apr 17 12:15:42 duck systemd-coredump[3399]: Process 29177 (etserver) of user 0 dumped core.
<{^_^}>
import-from-derivation (IFD) is when you evaluate nix from a derivation result, for example `import (pkgs.writeText "n" "1 + 1")` will evaluate to 2. This is sometimes problematic because it requires evaluating some, building some, and then evaluating the build result. It has been described as "such a nice footgun."
<julm>
how can we list those ,* entries?
<gchristensen>
,
<{^_^}>
Special commands: find tell locate expand inclusive-language random-pr - Commands sorted by use count, page 0 (use ,<n> to view page <n>): help libraries unstable escape'' paste declarative channels library ping tofu unfree escape" -a overlay pinning profiling ifd ask which-channel pr botsnack xml wololo cache nixlang++ xy fancy-uninstall imperative invite tofu-vim loot home-manager pills pointers matrixbridge smart-questions configsearch random-
<waleee-cl>
tofu-vim?
<waleee-cl>
,tofu-vim
<{^_^}>
<esc>52i0<esc>
<waleee-cl>
okay ...
<waleee-cl>
,tofu
<{^_^}>
To get a sha256 hash of a new source, you can use the Trust On First Use model: use probably-wrong hash (for example: 0000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000) then replace it with the correct hash Nix expected. See: tofu-vim
<waleee-cl>
ah, that made some sense of tofu-vim
<__monty__>
waleee-cl: clever's tip was good. If there's a hash already present just press R and type some 0's. That's usually plenty.
<waleee-cl>
__monty__: yeah, I have used tofu, but I have never needed to articuate a name/acronym for it :)
<waleee-cl>
* articulate
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<julm>
to replace a sha with 0000... one can use the vim sequence: vi"r0
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<ottidmes>
joepie91: I got an interesting debugging result just now: console.log(timestamp, timestamp === null, typeof timestamp) gives me: null false number
<joepie91>
ottidmes: what.
<ottidmes>
Yep, my response as well, WAT...
<ottidmes>
Writing a VS Code extension at the moment, but have to say, its been a while since I have encountered such weirdness.
<ottidmes>
It is falsey, so it should not be a "null" string (and besides, then it should have reported string for typeof)
<pie_[bnc]>
are these coercions guaranteed to be stable across versions? :P
<pie_[bnc]>
i read an interesting post why the internal implementation of js leads to weir dcoercions, but i havent been able to find it since
<pie_[bnc]>
im assumingthese coercions arent standardized?
<joepie91>
no, this isn't a coercion
<joepie91>
this looks like an actual bug
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<ottidmes>
agreed, normally there should still be some logic to it, and null going pass a null check and being a number, that just ain't right!
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<pie_[bnc]>
does timestamp have some kind of prototype methods you can split this problem up with?
<ottidmes>
I maybe could, but I do not really want to spend my time debugging node.js
<pie_[bnc]>
sure x)
<joepie91>
ottidmes: do you have a reduced testcase at least?
<joepie91>
so as to effectively make it Someone Elses Problem :)
<ottidmes>
joepie91: Fair enough, I will see what I can do
<julm>
:D
<FireFly>
it's not a funky console.log implementation that does something funny to its first argument for some inane reason?
<FireFly>
pie_[bnc]: type coercions in JS certainly are very standardised
<ottidmes>
FireFly: Pretty sure that is it, just simplified it and put the simplified out of my vscode extension and in a seperate project with just the snippet and the one dependency I used, and I get NaN number, making a whole lot more of sense
<pie_[bnc]>
\o/
<FireFly>
*nod*
* pie_[bnc]
thought it was the built in console.log
<FireFly>
I wonder what console.log([timestamp, timestamp === null, typeof timestamp].join(' ')) would log
<ottidmes>
FireFly: There we go: NaN false number
<FireFly>
I wonder how they managed to mess up console.log that badly :D
<ottidmes>
Conclusion, a bug in vscode
<FireFly>
to be less useful than just coercing arguments to string
<ottidmes>
indeed XD
<ottidmes>
And given all this, it can simply be reproduced by writing console.log(NaN) in your extension when in debug mode and looking at the DEBUG CONSOLE
<pie_[bnc]>
are you a wizard <FireFly> I wonder what console.log([timestamp, timestamp === null, typeof timestamp].join(' ')) would log
<pie_[bnc]>
<ottidmes> FireFly: There we go: NaN false number
<ottidmes>
given typeof and it literally passing the check that it is not null, its not that surprising, the surprising part is the logging being so wrong
<FireFly>
pie_[bnc]: no, I just used to know my way around JS too well (and I guess still do, to some extent)
<FireFly>
pie_[bnc]: that just forcefully coerces each element to a string (and joins with a separator), so that console.log will definitely log that final string, rather than letting the log function do something weird with it that's beyond the language itself
<FireFly>
which it apparently did :p
<pie_[bnc]>
FireFly: oh wait thats join not append
* pie_[bnc]
is prone to tons of small mistakes :C
<pie_[bnc]>
though tbf i wasnt paying too much attention here
<ottidmes>
console.log(require("util").inspect(NaN)) also works as normal, which again is not surprising, since we concluded they changed the implementation of console.log, so if we pass it an already formatted string, not surprising it works
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<gchristensen>
sometimes for whatever reason my webcam goes blue when I connect it to obs
<__monty__>
Well don't smurf it.
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<joepie91>
gchristensen: webcams are like printers, except better at subtle trolling
<MichaelRaskin>
And worse at brute extortion!
<gchristensen>
maybe it is a mood-cam
<worldofpeace>
> vom "mood-cam"
<{^_^}>
"mood-cam"
<srk>
lol!
<gchristensen>
nicely and appropriately blue
<cole-h>
I go to sleep and come back, and we're still on > vom
<cole-h>
Nice
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<pie_[bnc]>
gchristensen: BSOD
<pie_[bnc]>
its probably running windows mobile
<MichaelRaskin>
Modern webcams might have enough RAM for Windows 95 anyway
<eyJhb>
MichaelRaskin: and then I got sidetracked into trying to connect my laptop webcam to USB
<ldlework>
gchristensen: cole-h: drakonis_, I know it's early in the day, but a really young Go student of mine (13) could desperately use a game against someone other than me. Are any of you interested?
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<MichaelRaskin>
eyJhb: with webcam being the host, laptop being ignored and a smartphone being the gadget for storing recorded video, I hope?
<ldlework>
drakonis hey did you get my message?
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<cole-h>
ldlework: Sorry, poor timing; just about to hop in the shower x)
<eyJhb>
MichaelRaskin: no not that cool sadly. Just directly pludded into my laptop
<MichaelRaskin>
eyJhb: apparently we have different ideas of a laptop webcam!
<MichaelRaskin>
(I mean, I imagine it being harder to disconnect than connect)
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<drakonis_>
ldlework: i have
<ldlework>
drakonis_: you wanna play him?
<ldlework>
oh you got the message
<eyJhb>
MichaelRaskin: only if you care about the laptop ;)
<drakonis_>
sure
<ldlework>
oh cool
<MichaelRaskin>
eyJhb: well, if you destroy one of the connection sides before breaking connection…
<MichaelRaskin>
I mean, I guess one can destroy the optics without damaging the rest of the laptop much.
<MichaelRaskin>
And the cam will gracefully degrade to an ambient light sensor
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<drakonis>
aight
<drakonis>
game time?
<ldlework>
drakonis: they quizzically stopped responding
<drakonis>
hrm aight
<ldlework>
they are young and their parents hassle them frequently lol
<drakonis>
eh its no problem
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<sphalerite>
gchristensen: maybe obs sets some parameters that other software doesn't? v4l2 provides knobs like brightness, contrast, saturation, hue, automatic white balance, and obs could be adjusting those?
<sphalerite>
gchristensen: you could check with `v4l2-ctl --all` (package v4l-utils)
<gchristensen>
> retardify = throw "let's not do this "
<{^_^}>
retardify defined
<worldofpeace>
I call sHAdE gchristensen
<gchristensen>
sorry, worldofpeace, it isn't very nice
<gchristensen>
"spongebob" would be a better name
<worldofpeace>
upperdowncase, I actually don't even remember what they call it. gchristensen but yeah, not a good choice of nAmE
<sphalerite>
webstrand: also that's a #nixos question ;)
<webstrand>
thanks! for some reason I didn't see #nixos in the channel list
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<gchristensen>
sphalerite: it looks like as soon as Obs opens up its prefpane for camera settinsg it disables auto whitebalance and the checkmark doesn't fix it. nice catch! v4l2-ctl --device /dev/video0 --set-ctrl white_balance_temperature_auto=1 does the business
<sphalerite>
\o/
<colemickens>
gchristensen: hey your comment left one thing unclear
<gchristensen>
uh oh
<colemickens>
gchristensen: why do you have the extraModprobeConfig line and you also mention manually modprobe'ing it again with the same config?
<gchristensen>
tbh I'd forgotten I put it there by the time I ran modprobe lol
<colemickens>
okay, I figured it might be something like that.
<colemickens>
you know for sure that you can make it a persistent part of your config like that?
<gchristensen>
pretty sure
<colemickens>
I've just been doing it on demand, it'd be nice to just have it persist :)
<gchristensen>
I definitely did have to modprobe it first
<colemickens>
Okay.
<gchristensen>
I wasn't going to include the fact that I passed the args like that, but that would have been dishonest :P
<gchristensen>
fun fact colemickens
<gchristensen>
once you start outputting to your vl42loopback device, you can then use it as an input to obs
<colemickens>
Hm, just to make sure, is that actually a useful thing?
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* colemickens
assumes it does the cascading infinite window-in-itself thing
<gchristensen>
pretty much
<ashkitten>
oh you got the obs v4l2loopback plugin working?
<gchristensen>
did I ever
<ashkitten>
put it in nixpkgs? :3
* ashkitten
grabby at plugin
<gchristensen>
colemickens: did the hard part of putting it in nixpkgs and everything
<ashkitten>
ooh
<gchristensen>
I just tried it again and it worked
<colemickens>
gchristensen++ who fixed the build derivation in the first place :P
<{^_^}>
gchristensen's karma got increased to 269
<gchristensen>
my biggest problem now is I have no good color to chromakey
<ashkitten>
cornflower blue
<cole-h>
gchristensen: That screenshot is kinda trippy to look at
<ashkitten>
hey question, do number fields in qt applications do the thing gtk number fields do where you can type an expression and it'll be evaluated in place?
<waleee-cl>
cornflower blue is awesome
<ashkitten>
waleee-cl++
<{^_^}>
waleee-cl's karma got increased to 3
<waleee-cl>
it and prussian blue is my go-to themeing colors in wm:s
<ashkitten>
i don't even remember how i discovered that gtk number fields do that, but it's the greatest feature
<ashkitten>
ooh, i should pr that feature to iced
<pie_[bnc]>
ashkitten: i think the first time i heard of that was someone on twitter showing some exploit or bug or something in the gtk calculator
<pie_[bnc]>
so my description was *almost* completely wrong
<ashkitten>
yeah, that's not the feature i was talking about at all either
<ashkitten>
open up glimpse, create a new image, in the image width field type "82*4"
<pie_[bnc]>
i think ive used something like that in krita actually
<pie_[bnc]>
which is kde
<pie_[bnc]>
but idk if thats specific
<ashkitten>
oh yeah works in krita
<ashkitten>
does not work in qbittorrent (doesn't allow non-numeral characters in the field)
<srk>
pie_[bnc]: what about Agda and nix language?
<srk>
possible? :)
<srk>
*Nix language
<pie_[bnc]>
srk: what about it?
<srk>
pie_[bnc]: was thinking about that if it would make for a good learning experience
<srk>
or if it's too hard for starters
<pie_[bnc]>
learning nix?
<pie_[bnc]>
i dunno i still have a lovehate relationship with nix xD
<pie_[bnc]>
its not the most beautiful thing languagewise but its best in class
<pie_[bnc]>
i give myself lots of papercuts and am still figuring things out
<__monty__>
I'd kinda expect Guile to be nicer tbh.
<pie_[bnc]>
__monty__: as in you havent tried it or youd expect it to be nicer than it is?
<__monty__>
I haven't tried Guile. But I'd expect it to be nicer than Nix.
<pie_[bnc]>
ah
<pie_[bnc]>
*shrug*
<__monty__>
Nix feels like it grew organically and accumulated some cruftiness along the way.
<pie_[bnc]>
i have a coulple language semantics uglinesses that i run into repeatedly whenever i try to do something morderately complex
<srk>
learning Agda :)
<pie_[bnc]>
srk: oh, i havent gotten very far so idk, give it a shot :P
<__monty__>
Don't get me wrong, I definitely prefer Nix's purity over Guile's hypothetically nicer syntax and spec.
<pie_[bnc]>
srk: i think someone told me the book i suggested is more programmingy than formalizaitony, not sure
<pie_[bnc]>
srk: if you have questions probably best to ask in dependent or agda :p
<pie_[bnc]>
srk: im probably preaching to the choir here but at the end of the day you need to start and try it
<srk>
oh yeah
<pie_[bnc]>
its going to be a lot cleaner than haskell though probably
<srk>
it's hard to practice, gotta try something real
<MichaelRaskin>
I used Guile, well, it is a dialect of Scheme and Scheme had seen quite a bit of effort in consistent whole-language redesigns
<pie_[bnc]>
i dont necessarily want to throw nix out the window id just really like if a couple things got a bit more polished and fixed up
<__monty__>
MichaelRaskin: Yeah, that sounds like what I was expecting.
<__monty__>
pie_[bnc]: Now *this* is something I think flakes could make easier actually. You might break too many packages if you fix semantic awkwardness now. But with flaked you could introduce a versioning parameter.
<MichaelRaskin>
I did not use Guix itself though
<pie_[bnc]>
__monty__: you dont really need flakes for that though
<__monty__>
Oh, what did you use Guile for?
<pie_[bnc]>
anyway i have GHC envy
<__monty__>
Hard not to envy a compiler that doesn't even fit hydra evaluations : )
<MichaelRaskin>
Choose wisely: GHC, or a graphical NixOS installation DVD with a ton of stuff included, _and_ you save some place
<LnL>
:p
<srk>
GHC..
<gchristensen>
the unbounded growth is so wild to me
<srk>
moores law
<__monty__>
Hey, if tens of GB is acceptable for a game, shouldn't it be acceptable for a compiler?
<__monty__>
: >
<srk>
tens? recent games are reaching to hunders of GB :)
<MichaelRaskin>
Modern games are in megabytes. These movies with some buttons to press are another story.
<srk>
or at least aproaching *hundred (I think Alix or GTA5 is like 80GB)
<srk>
and growing as they are only adding content :D
<__monty__>
I think the latest CoD crosses the 100 GB boundary.
<samueldr>
aren't recent games really big because they don't compress media anymore?
<drakonis>
they shove 4k textures everywhere too
<drakonis>
they're big because the current consoles are kinda slow
<drakonis>
so uncompressed audio is king
<samueldr>
and all that space on blu-ray drives is free real estate
<samueldr>
blu-ray discs*
<drakonis>
the day 1 patches are as big as the discs these days
<drakonis>
so why even have discs lol
<samueldr>
because you're not a real game developer if you don't send plastic coasters across the whole wide world
<pie_[bnc]>
gchristensen: UCSB is great :3
<etu>
Download is so much more convenient than plastic coasters that you need to switch to switch application.
<cole-h>
pie_[bnc]: UCSB or USCSB
<__monty__>
gchristensen: Is it because of the "In Texas everything is bigger," thing?
<pie_[bnc]>
cole-h: whichever is the right one :P
<cole-h>
Heh
<gchristensen>
ghc?
<drakonis>
this seems like a product of the retailer market
<drakonis>
game retailers lol
<drakonis>
from what i recall, the last of us 2 got delayed because they couldn't supply retailers with copies
<drakonis>
among other games that are now slated to release in the next year
<drakonis>
also because its bad touch to release a game about fungi zombies
<drakonis>
in the middle of a pandemic
<pie_[bnc]>
in the intro they show some kind of trianing app https://invidio.us/watch?v=goSEyGNfiPM , would be cool if there was an offlineable version, package it with nix for posterity >:D
<MichaelRaskin>
drakonis: well, one _could_ try to ride the controversy…
<drakonis>
sony wouldnt
<drakonis>
its awful PR
<drakonis>
uniquely terrible PR
<MichaelRaskin>
OK, yeah, Sony is in too many markets.
<MichaelRaskin>
For a studio that does only games in a specific genre, this could be a winnable game
<drakonis>
it also got delayed because of logistics too
<drakonis>
not just the terrible PR
<MichaelRaskin>
Funnily enough, switching to download-only could be a larger PR risk…
<MichaelRaskin>
(in a time of constant congestion)
<samueldr>
I would like to say that it's terribly self-centered to say that discs shouldn't exist as download is fine and more convenient, as it is a big download and not everywhere can manage to download that either quickly enough, or even under download limits... but those day one updates make the points so moot
<samueldr>
some places have terrible internet, or terribly limited passable internet
<drakonis>
the problem here is that the AAA games typically have gigantic day 1 patches
<drakonis>
so the discs are entirely pointless now
<samueldr>
>> but those day one updates make the points so moot
<samueldr>
or was the message truncated?
<drakonis>
yes i didnt see it
<drakonis>
my bad
<drakonis>
was distracted
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<MichaelRaskin>
I guess that makes releasing any AAA mid-disruption bad PR… even if disc logistics can be solved, even if content is uncontroversial.
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<adisbladis>
Does anyone know of some good "harness" for testing socket activation? I found https://github.com/mitsuhiko/systemfd but do we have something similar in nixpkgs already?
<samueldr>
ashkitten: if you're looking for inexpensive, I think the best inexpensive one could be the flintan ikea office chair in my experience
<ashkitten>
that's still $200...
<samueldr>
not sure about multi-year use, but a coworking space had been using those for years already in probably not the most caring way
<infinisil>
adisbladis: This uses systemd-run to start a socket-activated executable and tells journalctl to show the logs, Ctrl-C'ing then stops the socket and service
<samueldr>
200$? weird, 90$CAD here :/
<samueldr>
so I assumed it would be something like 75$USD
<infinisil>
Worked pretty well for me :)
<ashkitten>
oh, i saw a different thing nvm
<ashkitten>
hmm idk, how comfortable is it?
<samueldr>
to me, very
<adisbladis>
infinisil: Looks pretty nice
<ashkitten>
hm
<adisbladis>
But I think I'll maybe end up packaging systemfd anyway, looks pretty nifty
<samueldr>
and I like how it's not a polyurethane leather-like thing that cracks and becomes unsightly quickly
<infinisil>
adisbladis: Sounds good too :)
<samueldr>
without much experience in chairs (if anyone has) I think it may be the best bang for the buck
<samueldr>
at least without investing
<infinisil>
Btw I scrapped socket activation in more recent versions of that project because I realized I don't want or need it with how it newly works
<gchristensen>
I have a $200 chair from officedepot and it is is very uncomfortable
<ashkitten>
some friends have chairs from uhh staples and they're very comfy
<ashkitten>
i was thinking of getting those, but $200
<samueldr>
I've sat in one of those flintan for work for like ~two years at that coworking space, and replaced my broken up chair with that since it was satisfactory
<ashkitten>
anyway idk if ikea even ships rn
<gchristensen>
if you're shopping around, consider looking for a chair which is rated for the number of hours you'll sit in it
<infinisil>
"forever"
<ashkitten>
until it breaks... lol
<samueldr>
also note I'm in the lightweight scale of weights, and slender
<samueldr>
I won'd know how it fits other body types
<gchristensen>
well so there are very cheap chairs rated for up to 2hours of use at a time
<gchristensen>
for example
<gchristensen>
not that you need to follow the guidance, but it was useful for me to learn that same chairs are rated in that way :)
<samueldr>
(I did have the advantage of having tried the chair for a while before buying)
<ashkitten>
hm
<ashkitten>
well, i'm gonna go lie in bed and wait for the doctor to call
<gchristensen>
uh oh, everyting okay?
<ashkitten>
nothing serious
<ashkitten>
dw about me
<infinisil>
Tis just a scratch?
* gchristensen
is a bit worried about everybody right now?
<ashkitten>
<3 gchristensen
<{^_^}>
gchristensen's karma got increased to 270
<pie_[bnc]>
chairs have...ratings?
<pie_[bnc]>
huhh
<MichaelRaskin>
(am tempted to say something like «chairs?»)
<pie_[bnc]>
MichaelRaskin: +1
<__monty__>
Haven't seen any ratings on IKEA chairs and they hold up pretty well imo.
<pie_[bnc]>
i find my body physically uncomfortable can i have one with a better rating?
<samueldr>
and another thing I liked about the ikea one, 10 year limited warranty, hopefully that means they believe it should hold for that duratoin
<MichaelRaskin>
(I have a couple wooden chairs here, not actually using them for sitting, typing stuff while sitting in/on bed — I need to remember to change the pose from time to time, though)
<__monty__>
Ok, no. Haven't had an IKEA chair last 10 years.
<ashkitten>
pie_[bnc]: if you manage to get a new one lmk, i've been needing one for my emotional discomfort
<ashkitten>
and also physical discomfort...
<pie_[bnc]>
ashkitten: the outlook is not great
<ashkitten>
:<
* pie_[bnc]
pats ashkitten
<adisbladis>
Man.. Rust packaging in nixpkgs is terrible..
<ashkitten>
bodies suck, let me upload myself to the internet
<adisbladis>
I keep being reminded of this -.-
<gchristensen>
same
<adisbladis>
gchristensen: Have you given crate2nix a go?
<gchristensen>
I *think* yes but Idon't remember
* cole-h
is personally a fan of naersk
<adisbladis>
cole-h: That's not in nixpkgs
<MichaelRaskin>
ashkitten: are you sure modern CPUs do not suck?
<cole-h>
We could ask nmattia if they're interested in adding it to nixpkgs... ;)
<ashkitten>
MichaelRaskin: sorry what?
<MichaelRaskin>
Well, you say «bodies suck, let me upload»
<gchristensen>
which would win: a human flesh body or a little spectreboi
<ashkitten>
who said i don't think cpus suck?
<MichaelRaskin>
You just hope they suck less?
<ashkitten>
who said i think they suck less?
<adisbladis>
(╯°□°)╯︵ ┻━┻ < me packaging a rust app
<ashkitten>
i want to be a computer ghost, not code on a shitty cpu
<gchristensen>
I think MichaelRaskin thinks you implied they suck less by wanting to escape a body fora cpu
<ashkitten>
i think computer hardware does not suck as bad as a flesh prison, but i would not want to be running on an x86_64 cpu
<MichaelRaskin>
Or routed over any AS using unfiltered BGP…
<ashkitten>
i can do my own routing thank you very much, i am an independent computer ghost
<gchristensen>
hehe
<MichaelRaskin>
Now I start wondering if completely absurd failures at Hydra are actually how some ghost tries to tell us something
<ashkitten>
i feel like a ghost could be more direct than that
<__monty__>
Yeah, sensual pottery or something.
<ashkitten>
ofc, that implies that the ghost wants to be direct and doesn't just want to mess with you
<gchristensen>
nix-build -A nix -> gets a build of apt
<MichaelRaskin>
Or maybe communicate only with someone of a specific mindset
<ashkitten>
or maybe they just like breaking things
<MichaelRaskin>
gchristensen: that way of communication _might_ lead to a very high churn of chat buddies.
<gchristensen>
hehe
<__monty__>
For a distro that's supposed to rid us of snowflakes NixOS sure likes snowflakes a lot.
<cole-h>
gchristensen: Hahaha that got a chuckle out of me
<cole-h>
__monty__: We call them flakes now, thank-you-very-much.
<cole-h>
;^)
<ashkitten>
i'm so confused
<MichaelRaskin>
__monty__: it's a ritual. We want our snowflakes in the desktop backgrounds and solid rocks in our build scripts, not the other way round
<__monty__>
MichaelRaskin: That how you deal with servers acting up? You say "Brick 'em." all cool like and then throw an actual brick at them "Let it be a warning for the others 😎"?
<cole-h>
Is that not how you're supposed to do it?
<__monty__>
Anyway, that was my standup set for the night. nn, peoples
<MichaelRaskin>
Servers become more expendable when you can afford redeploying!
<MichaelRaskin>
Make every server an irreproducible artifact, now you have no leverage over them
<__monty__>
Otoh, it's harder to hide your CS:GO servers in a herd than among snowflakes 🤔
<ashkitten>
is there a way to increase the timeout for container startup? i think my server's disks are slow enough that the mastodon container never manages to start up in time and requires a manual restart every reboot
<gchristensen>
that is true. a few jobs ago we destroyed every server on its 90th day, and if someone SSH'd in, it'd be destroyed 24h later
<pie_[bnc]>
come join us in the all new #nixos-rust <adisbladis> Man.. Rust packaging in nixpkgs is terrible..
<__monty__>
ashkitten: I know there's a directive for start timeout. Not sure whether that works for nspawn. Or whether you're even using nspawn.
<__monty__>
nn
<ashkitten>
it's a declarative nixos container
<gchristensen>
ashkitten: it sounds like you need a dependency on the systemd service which starts it
__monty__ has quit [Quit: leaving]
<gchristensen>
describing an order to when it should start, relative to something it needs
<ashkitten>
it does start up on boot, it just times out
<pie_[bnc]>
that way lies madness, i dont want to be flipping a coin constantly about whether im abusing some cpu ghost :c <MichaelRaskin> Now I start wondering if completely absurd failures at Hydra are actually how some ghost tries to tell us something
<gchristensen>
why does it time out?
<adisbladis>
pie_[bnc]: Tbh I'd probably want Naersk in nixpkgs
<cole-h>
gchristensen: Why would the server be destroyed 24h after, if someone SSH'd in?
<gchristensen>
is there a resource it needs which isn't started yet?
<ashkitten>
i think the disks are just slow, maybe
<gchristensen>
cole-h: because that server was no longer reliably configured the way the configuration tooling created it :)
<MichaelRaskin>
cole-h: because ssh in means there is something broken, let's not keeping broken stuff around
<cole-h>
Oh, I see
<ashkitten>
gchristensen: i'm not sure, to be honest
<adisbladis>
Imho lock file parsers in nix is the best way to package anything
<gchristensen>
and if you did a hot fix in prod and then it is destoryed within 1d, you're more likely to remember the fix than if it goes away 60 days later
<MichaelRaskin>
ashkitten: we-ell, do you like crazy solutions?
<ashkitten>
excuse?
<MichaelRaskin>
And do you have sufficient RAM
<cole-h>
gchristensen: I understand now. I like it.
<ashkitten>
32 gigs
<MichaelRaskin>
I guess you could just cat whatever container reads on start to /dev/null before starting the container then
<gchristensen>
every deploy at that company was done by making a new server image and destroying all the old ones
<gchristensen>
that job is what brought me to nixos
<ashkitten>
MichaelRaskin: idk, maybe. idk what's the issue
<MichaelRaskin>
I do agree it is not a _reasonable_ solution
<cole-h>
gchristensen: Was that done with Nix itself, or did Nix catch your attention because of its similarities to what was being done at $work?
<gchristensen>
that was with Chef and Packer
<gchristensen>
it work beautifully but was slow
<gchristensen>
I saw NixOS homepage and decided it was not possibly true
<ashkitten>
MichaelRaskin: i would like to move this server to different hardware, with an ssd
<MichaelRaskin>
How to come to NixOS and stay: use a solution that gives you what you want from NixOS beautifully, but is very slow
<ashkitten>
if anyone wants to donate a 1u server to me, thanks
<gchristensen>
ashkitten: 1U servers are a real cursed gift :P
<gchristensen>
only good if you have a datacenter handy to put them in... or you find jet engine sounds calming
<ashkitten>
i have a friend who will rack it for me for $69.69 a month
<MichaelRaskin>
(I had an Automated/Beyond Linux From Scratch setup where every package lived in its own funionfs slice with on-the-fly reconfiguration supported)
<samueldr>
nice
<gchristensen>
nice
<MichaelRaskin>
gchristensen: are they worse than GB BRIX?
<gchristensen>
chefs-kiss.bmp
<MichaelRaskin>
Hmmmm
<MichaelRaskin>
I think I remember one 1U server. Probably a just a bit louder
<gchristensen>
MichaelRaskin: probably....
<samueldr>
they're mean tiny fans that need to push a lot of air
<ashkitten>
i actually have a couple 1u servers in this apartment that we got for free... but the only thing we can get to run on them is freebsd or really old versions of linux
<MichaelRaskin>
GB BRIX is something I bought because it is an i4770R in a _ridiculously_ small volume (like Intel NUC size)
<ashkitten>
some weird hardware quirks i think
<ashkitten>
we might try to mess with freebsd's hypervisor
<samueldr>
and it's quite amazing, two display port out, one DVI
<gchristensen>
I got an older 2U server once and immeditaely regretted it for every reason, and then was stupid and got a 4U chassis for my home storage system and again continue to regret it deeply
<MichaelRaskin>
Well, BRIX is more cubic. Higher and smaller. 12×12×6 cm or something
<gchristensen>
nice
<MichaelRaskin>
It really sounds like it regrets not being born a helicopter
<gchristensen>
hahaha
<samueldr>
~19x19x4 cm
<MichaelRaskin>
I did sleep with it in three meters (zero walls) from me on the table being an ofborg builder.
<samueldr>
though it's not noisy
<MichaelRaskin>
Brix is also not noisiy. Not until you load i7-4770R to the maximum it will take before thermal throttling
<ashkitten>
yeah we haven't really touched the 1u servers in a while because they're painfully loud... also, because we had one laying on the floor in the bedroom for a while while we were working on it. have you ever stubbed your toe on a rack mount server?
<gchristensen>
that was the first time I spilled blood on a server
<samueldr>
something newton's laws and immovable object
<MichaelRaskin>
That's what you get for refusing to wear proper toe-protecting shoes hear your servers. (Now I try to imagine steel-reinforced toe-protection flip-flops)
<gchristensen>
steel-reinforced toe-box slippers with shearling wool
<cole-h>
SGTM. When can I buy one? gchristensen
<cole-h>
:P
<gchristensen>
lol
<MichaelRaskin>
I think it is pretty clear that the person needing this would need them with _yak_ wool
<gchristensen>
lol
<ashkitten>
the biggest issue was that the server often got covered in blankets and other miscellania, and apparently i don't have object permanence
<gchristensen>
you know those stickers "the cloud is someone else's computer"? I really find comfort in that.
<MichaelRaskin>
Normal person: maybe indeed don't put servers on the floor. Me: maybe do not put blankets on the floor.
<ashkitten>
MichaelRaskin: they get thrown off the bed sometimes, i'm not a very tidy person due to Massive Executive Dysfunction
<MichaelRaskin>
Oh, I see. I am definitely not a tidy person, but my blanket's normal state is a mess that never leaves the bed.
<ashkitten>
i move around in my sleep, it happens
<MichaelRaskin>
Ah indeed, makes sense.
<ashkitten>
anyways, i'd love to get at least one ssd in this server but i can't do anything with the hardware
<drakonis>
gchristensen: may i PM you?
<gchristensen>
yeah, but I'll be in-and-out
<drakonis>
aight
<cole-h>
Now you got me curious drak
<drakonis>
oh, its a thing i chatted about with ldlework
<drakonis>
evangelism stuff
<tilpner>
"Why does my systemd journal fill up so fast?"
<drakonis>
a thing that i think we're kinda missing here is having some decent canned slides, as all existing stuff isn't what i'd consider satisfactory
* tilpner
finds 19918149 lines of nixpkgs issue titles
<drakonis>
its too shallow and doesnt really impress people
<drakonis>
the wow factor is missing from it
<drakonis>
how do i put this
<drakonis>
its much easier to sell it to someone who gets the idea but hasnt found anything that implements it yet
<drakonis>
but how do you sell it to someone who's using the other tools and doesnt quite see the advantage yet
<drakonis>
invoking "nix makes everything reliable" on its own isnt enough
<drakonis>
you'd need a proof of concept example to go with it
<gchristensen>
"just spent an hour figuring out how to bill for something which will at most pay us $30" -- stories from medical billing lmao.
<drakonis>
the slide decks i've found so far lack these examples
<drakonis>
medical billing lmao
<drakonis>
this is what i was going to pm you
<cole-h>
Oh, Nix evangelism stuff
<drakonis>
i have previously discussed this in the past, when i was preparing my own slide deck for a presentation
<drakonis>
yes ys
<drakonis>
yes
<cole-h>
I was curious what religion we were getting into here :P
<drakonis>
we'll need this kind of stuff soon
<drakonis>
rust ;V?
<drakonis>
nix stuff heyooo
<cole-h>
Rust 👀
<MichaelRaskin>
I was suspecting Go, the game
<drakonis>
haw
<MichaelRaskin>
Just from the set of three persons mentioned, and _recent_ discussion of evangelism
<cole-h>
But I was excluded, it couldn't have been about Baduk
<MichaelRaskin>
Maybe you were too busy learning to play and miss the context of the current evangelism discussion, who knows
<drakonis>
eh, i suppose i'll leave this discussion for later
<MichaelRaskin>
I wonder whether FHS environments is something we want getting more attention than now, or actively not.
<MichaelRaskin>
(nixpkgs-defined FHSenvs I mean)
<drakonis>
you might
<drakonis>
it is worthwhile as a way to make inroads into other users
<MichaelRaskin>
Yeah, there are many cases where they are just needed. There is not just Steam, but also, say, Maple…
<drakonis>
its great for handling software that nix cannot coerce into its environment
<MichaelRaskin>
More or less, proprietary software coming with its own installer
<drakonis>
and those aren't in short supply
<MichaelRaskin>
Well, not so few do ship a .deb or something (assuming they support Linux)
<MichaelRaskin>
(Hmmm, automatically running a Windows installer under Wine inside Xvfb with some desktop automation involved — all that in a Nix build, what could possibly go right)
<MichaelRaskin>
I guess the drawback of putting more attention on FHS envs is that they have some gotchas that are unique to them — you cannot have the same problem with legacy package managers, and with proper Nix wrapping the problem would also look different.
<gchristensen>
putting them up front is like "hey look we have a better way to make the bad thing we're against"
<MichaelRaskin>
I mean, it _is_ better in many ways
<gchristensen>
in a "Faster horse" kind of way
<MichaelRaskin>
And I can understand giving up on a single consistent image presented for every target audience in favour of tailored messaging and stepping stones.
<MichaelRaskin>
Stepping stones are useful!
<gchristensen>
yes, but putting them up front is like
<MichaelRaskin>
But unique gotchas worry me.
<gchristensen>
allwe have is a faster horse
<gchristensen>
when instead relegating it to a "oh so you really really need a horse, huh?" kind of document
<MichaelRaskin>
Come here, let this faster horse take you to the airport.
<gchristensen>
exactly
<gchristensen>
so let's talk about the airport first
<MichaelRaskin>
Well…
<MichaelRaskin>
I mean, there are cases where Linus Torvalds was very consistently (and politely — as there was no transgression, just lack of experience) explaining «nope, stop selling me on a large vision, make me want incremental improvements first»
<gchristensen>
sure
<gchristensen>
we have both
<gchristensen>
did the lack-of-experience people have a fully realized vision, or just vision?
<MichaelRaskin>
Also, the smoother a migration path is… «just install that one thing via Nix, it won't disturb your system» … «you know, just setup your project environment via Nix, it's easier to version that way» … «you know, you could manage all the tools you need like that and move them one by one, low risk!» …
<MichaelRaskin>
At some point «all» starts needing FHS envs
<MichaelRaskin>
For some people, at the last step; for some — earlier
<gchristensen>
sure
<MichaelRaskin>
(BTW, it's a pity that the old model of having a bunch of services that just happenned to be used by NixOS got abandoned — it was more stepping stones; «how to migrate to NixOS without noticing it»)
<gchristensen>
I have seen it in action actually with systemd generators
<gchristensen>
a nix profile for services deployed with nix on any systemd os
<MichaelRaskin>
I mean, I use NixOS code to generate scripts starting stuff on non-systemd OS
<MichaelRaskin>
But I am not sure if any of such toolsets feel as an easy step for someone who manages a couple of tools as Nix builds but uses Ubuntu normally otherwise
<MichaelRaskin>
(as opposed to someone who can easily write a NixOS config but wants to run non-NixOS in some specific case)
<gchristensen>
right
<MichaelRaskin>
I dunno, nix-darwin feels _aimed_ at «oh, you installed the preferred version of GHC on macOS using Nix? Cool, let's run Nginx using Nix, too, it's easy»
<gchristensen>
hmmm a cool point
<MichaelRaskin>
I was searching for a conversation where this would fit!
<gchristensen>
:)
<gchristensen>
lol.
<gchristensen>
I was going to mow the lawn tomorrow, but it looks like instead I 'll be getting 20cm of snow instead
<andi->
mow some snow!
<gchristensen>
there you go
<samueldr>
whew, no snow in the forecasts
<andi->
Anyone has seen `Devs` yet? Apparently a new TV series...
<gchristensen>
tobi suggested that to me, andi-
<andi->
gchristensen: same that why I am watching now
<andi->
14min in it doesn't sound that bad
<gchristensen>
how do you watch it?
<andi->
mpv
<gchristensen>
how should I watch it?:)
<hexa->
mpv
<gchristensen>
okay scp it to me
<hexa->
andi-: ^
drakonis_ has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds]
<cole-h>
Here, I'll type out each byte and you can stream that into your player gchristensen
<gchristensen>
sounds perfect
<gchristensen>
I'll get my good keyboard
<MichaelRaskin>
Save your wrists and use ii
<MichaelRaskin>
it will conveniently write the messages to a file! Just a bit of tail -f and sed later…