<ashkitten>
have any yall gotten ssh through usb working with a raspberry pi?
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<cole-h>
adisbladis: Thanks for reporting back. Now I just have to switch to NixOS before that becomes relevant x)
<adisbladis>
cole-h: In the mean time you can achieve the same using plain znc: http://ix.io/2dHu
<adisbladis>
Which is what the NixOS module is generating
<cole-h>
<3 adisbladis
<{^_^}>
adisbladis's karma got increased to 33
<adisbladis>
:)
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<Irenes[m]>
I don't know whether this is relevant to your needs or not adisbladis, but I'll explain what I do anyway.
<Irenes[m]>
Having used both znc and weechat, I prefer weechat, configured to speak its own relay protocol rather than downstream IRC. As long as you're happy with the limited selection of clients that that approach entails, it's a lot less prone to losing state or displaying things without context, compared to znc.
<Irenes[m]>
However, what I do these days is actually use the Matrix Freenode bridge. So my clients speak the Matrix protocol, not any variant of IRC.
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<adisbladis>
Irenes[m]: The thing is I'm not at all happy with the UX of any weechat relay client.
<Irenes[m]>
If self-hosting is a requirement for you, you could host your own Matrix server and IRC bridge.
<Irenes[m]>
yeah, I hear that. that's unfortunate.
<adisbladis>
The only chat client I really like (any protocol) is erc
<Irenes[m]>
it can also be configured to speak IRC as the relay protocol, but that's inherently more limited. I don't know how the semantics compare to what znc does, but with anything that has IRC going downstream, it's going to lose stuff, it's only a question of which semantics you find more intuitive.
<Irenes[m]>
sure
<Irenes[m]>
then I think you're back to running the terminal-based client of your choice, inside screen or tmux
<Irenes[m]>
that's certainly an approach that works for many people
<adisbladis>
Irenes[m]: I wouldn't be happy with that either. I want to live inside emacs
<Irenes[m]>
ah, some people run emacs inside screen... :)
<Irenes[m]>
well, anyway, fair enough
<adisbladis>
And currently 2 things makes me venture outside of it, IRC & browsing
<Irenes[m]>
znc and weechat are basically the two choices that I'm aware of
<adisbladis>
My experiments with znc over the last hour are pretty good
<Irenes[m]>
or you could treat irc the way it would have been in the old days, before everyone started expecting cloud features: you connect to it while you're at-keyboard, and you only see conversations that happen while you're there.
<Irenes[m]>
that's good to hear
<adisbladis>
I think that's far better than weechat (except the weechat android client which is excellent)
<Irenes[m]>
the area to make sure you understand its behavior in is /query messages
<Irenes[m]>
particularly where those get routed if you have zero clients connected when they come in, and if you have more than one client connected
<adisbladis>
Irenes[m]: Good point. I'm gonna try that out
<Irenes[m]>
cool. good luck!
<ashkitten>
i feel like every time i look at the weechat roadmap relay client support is bumped up another version
<lovesegfault>
adisbladis: :D
<adisbladis>
Ok ZNC is pretty great
<adisbladis>
Why didn't I do this earlier
<lovesegfault>
adisbladis: What's great about it?
<lovesegfault>
I have never used it myself
* lovesegfault
needs a NixOS VPS
<adisbladis>
lovesegfault: It's exactly the kind of UX I've wanted for IRC
<adisbladis>
A declarative network/channel configuration + a local instance of Erc
<lovesegfault>
:D
<lovesegfault>
Can I make lib.traceVal actually print stuff
<lovesegfault>
it just says <CODE>
<lovesegfault>
so annoying
<cole-h>
lib.traceValSeq
<adisbladis>
cole-h: That doesn't help for deep objects though
<cole-h>
Does it not? It worked when I used it
<adisbladis>
I often go for `builtins.trace (builtins.toJSON x) x`
<adisbladis>
Or it seems like it does
<adisbladis>
Maybe me and lib.traceValSeq should become friends :)
<cole-h>
traceSeq says "`builtins.trace`, but the value is `builtins.deepSeq`ed first."
<cole-h>
and traceValSeq does a similar thing
<adisbladis>
cole-h: Yeah lib.traceValSeq seems to do the right thing
<adisbladis>
TIL
<lovesegfault>
I really wish it was easier to debug inf. rec
<cole-h>
If traceValSeq is giving you inf rec, you can try traceValSeqN and give it a depth
<lovesegfault>
cole-h: value is a function while a set was expected, at /home/bemeurer/src/nix-config/systems/foucault.nix:43:6
<lovesegfault>
lol
<cole-h>
🤔
<cole-h>
You need to specify a depth with traceValSeqN...
<cole-h>
`traceValSeqN <depth> <value>`
<lovesegfault>
Ah
<lovesegfault>
nice
<cole-h>
(I'd do the fancy Haskell notation but I haven't learned it yet, so that's what you get)
<cole-h>
Hot take: daylight savings time needs to die already
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<ashkitten>
the pinetime sucks so bad just to get code onto...
<ashkitten>
it's also basically impossible to charge the damn thing without gluing on the back
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<ashkitten>
apparently it's meant to eventually have a bootloader you can upload code to via bluetooth
<ashkitten>
which will be much better
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<MichaelRaskin>
cole-h: is it even a hot take anymore?
<Irenes[m]>
There have been ballot initiatives about that in several jurisdictions in the US/Pacific timezone. I absolutely suggest voting for it.
<MichaelRaskin>
EU seems pretty committed to the «we just need to implement abolishment carefully» position; China is not on DST anyway (neither is Russia)
<MichaelRaskin>
So it's just the question whether USA stays behind
<emily>
leap seconds next, please?
<MichaelRaskin>
Leap seconds are, in a sense, the opposite thing!
<MichaelRaskin>
DST: we don't care about true noon, let it jump around; Leap seconds: we do not want noon to drift
<MichaelRaskin>
The problem with abandoning leap seconds is that most consumers use clocks that drift more than by one second per year often enough
<MichaelRaskin>
Summer time is «what the hell they are doing with my sleep cycle», leap seconds are annoying to programmers and desirable to astronomers.
<Irenes[m]>
Daylight savings is the one topic where staying behind is actually a good thing! (Staying forward would be fine, too.)
<Irenes[m]>
And yeah, heh, regarding leap seconds I once suggested keeping computers in TAI rather than UTC. Somebody who knew a lot more than I do, managed to convince me that I don't want that. Then I forgot the argument... Oops.
<MichaelRaskin>
Irenes: did you agree to having the published timetables be in UTC?
<MichaelRaskin>
Because world-on-TAI, UTC-for-astronomers and world-on-UTC, computers-on-TAI are different things
<Irenes[m]>
Ah, it was probably something like that, thank you.
<MichaelRaskin>
For the record, I have not yet put forward any arguments, I was just asking about the positions argued
<Irenes[m]>
Yeah, sorry, didn't mean to put words in your mouth. I think I was imagining that either people would still publish things in UTC and not care about the seventeen second difference, or that everything would be TAI. Neither makes a lot of sense.
<Irenes[m]>
Or I might have been proposing that computers count in TAI but convert to UTC only for display purposes, but that seems over-engineered to me today.
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<MichaelRaskin>
Yes, I was mstly preparing to show why TAI-clock UTC-via-TZ is forcing over-engineering to computers that are better off without it
<Irenes[m]>
Or we could all forget about the concept of time and just let ourselves rest. This is my preferred solution really...
<Irenes[m]>
Yes, that makes sense to me now
<eyJhb>
Irenes[m]: arange beetings based on sunsets and the angle of the sun, as usual, so somewhat time
<eyJhb>
INSERT INTO users (created_at) ("SUNSET NUMBER 10 ANGLE 45");
<MichaelRaskin>
Well-maintained Linux laptops with high-quality realtime clock would be probably better off with TAI+UTC-TZ, but…
<MichaelRaskin>
Forget sunrises, count time in kiloseconds!
<eyJhb>
MichaelRaskin: I will count them in feet and see how that goes
<eyJhb>
avp
<eyJhb>
:p **
<MichaelRaskin>
Feet are actually terribly small time units
<eyJhb>
We could also take feat, which could be the mean time Pitbull feats other tracks
<MichaelRaskin>
And astronomical units are OK (single-digit minutes), but defined as averages and thus not directly observable.
<eyJhb>
How small are you propsing MichaelRaskin ?
<MichaelRaskin>
Well, a foot as a measure of time is _clearly_ a foot divided by c (speed of light)!
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<emily>
irenes: MichaelRaskin: fwiw djb and others have long advocated for keeping the POSIX system clock on TAI-10, and implementing leap seconds in the tzdata database (which has support for it)
<emily>
which allows for correct display of 23:59:60 while eliminating most leap second issues
<emily>
the main downside is that anything that uses a Unix timestamp is off by like 20 seconds
<emily>
so e.g. your tar files and the like show wrong to other people
<emily>
""ideally"" everything would explicitly say it wanted a UTC time rather than just calling the "gimme the Unix time" function, but unfortunately that's not the world we live in
<MichaelRaskin>
And you need to be careful when using public NTP
<MichaelRaskin>
And you cannot convert future timestamps…
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<emily>
MichaelRaskin: to be fair, the POSIX "23:59:59 happens twice" solution moves the inaccuracy from the conversion of future dates to /literally not having a representation for the time you'd convert/
<emily>
but yeah, doesn't work with normal NTP servers, at least without a smart client :(
<emily>
I think leap smearing is probably the best solution in practice
<MichaelRaskin>
emily: for stable timezones you kind of value roundtrip stability more than representing each second, so smearing is fine, and often general jitter is larger anyway
<emily>
honestly I feel like converting future timestamps to dates is just... wrong, most of the time? tzdata also often only gets updated a few months before a timezone change
<emily>
so you can't reliably convert future dates in general
<emily>
and you're going to be at most, like, 20 seconds off over several decades, so
<MichaelRaskin>
Actually, we more or less lack proper time types
<MichaelRaskin>
Because some future times are definitionally tied to a specific timezone, and not necessarily the current local timezone
<MichaelRaskin>
You might want to watch a livestream planned in terms of local time elsewhere in a few months…
<emily>
right
<emily>
it's the "TAI timestamp → datetime" that's lossy
<emily>
this also applies to sufficiently old dates too
<MichaelRaskin>
Well, TAI — UTC — local-datetime doesn't have true conversions anywhere
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<cole-h>
lovesegfault: ping
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<LnL>
oh boy, I get why licenses are a thing but I sometimes wish they just didn't exist
<Taneb>
Imagine if you had to demonstrate you were competent at using some software before you were allowed to use it unsupervised
<MichaelRaskin>
Imagine people capable to estimate user competence actually existing!
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<ashkitten>
MichaelRaskin: isn't that what they keep making racist neural nets for?
<gchristensen>
hah.
<gchristensen>
(oof)
<lovesegfault>
cole-h: pong
<joepie91>
Taneb: I mean, most *developers* don't even understand the software that they work on themselves
<joepie91>
you'd be left with no users :P
<ashkitten>
the mastodon nixos module hasn't been merged yet but i'm gonna try it out with my instance, which is currently in a docker-compose managed container
<ashkitten>
hoping this goes well...
<ashkitten>
i'm putting it in a declarative nixos container so i can theoretically host multiple instances from that machine
<MichaelRaskin>
joepie91: Yes, yes, having these people would be a prerequisite to making sure someone on the release team knows what they are working on
<MichaelRaskin>
ashkitten: they might be claiming to be making neural nets for it, but they are definitely not actually making any nets for it
<cole-h>
lovesegfault: I might have missed it in the earlier conversations, but why did you remove `nixos-rebuild` (or rather, why did you not want to rely on it)?
<lovesegfault>
cole-h: because it just uses /etc/configuration.nix
<MichaelRaskin>
You can change what nixos-config resolves to via -I or NIX_PATH
<lovesegfault>
I want to nix-build -A $machine and then do something
<lovesegfault>
MichaelRaskin: the whole point of what I built is to not ever rely or need NIX_PATH
<MichaelRaskin>
Ah. Then yeah, importing and passing explicit config parameter makes perfect sense
<cole-h>
lovesegfault: Ah, I see. Thanks for clarifying
<colemickens>
I run an "ingestion" server that downloads from Mega and loads TBs of data into Google Drive and it's all ~free, (the enterprise storage account with unlimited storage is $10/month, and the domain $12/year, but it's effectively zero for what I'm getting out of it).
<colemickens>
b/w into GCP is free, b/w bw Google properties is free, I access the data through Drive API, so there's no data xfer cost to me either.
<colemickens>
AWS/Azure/Oracle/others have free tiers too
<colemickens>
If you know ex-big-co employees they often leave with access to free resources that sometimes don't ever expire ;)
<colemickens>
(As in, freebies-for-life, not like creds someone walked out with)
<andi->
lovesegfault: either stick it on a box that runs at your home anyway.. (it is just an IRC client afterall..) or just buy the cheapest VM you can find.. What is the west coast equivalent of Hetzner?
<gchristensen>
I don't know of any thing else like hetzner
<adisbladis>
A bouncer is not exactly latency sensitive, so you should be fine.
<samueldr>
I assume it's baremetal API + cheap that makes it unlike any other?
<adisbladis>
samueldr: Even their VPS offerings are about half price of anything else for the amount of resources you get.
<samueldr>
hm, indeed
<samueldr>
didn't know about their VPS offers
<yorick>
the VPSs are pretty decent
<yorick>
typing this from one of them, has not gone down so far
<lovesegfault>
andi-: I'm trying
<lovesegfault>
GCP gave me $300 credit
<andi->
it's a trap!
<cole-h>
For 1 year, I believe, yeah
<lovesegfault>
google suspend my account for fraud
<lovesegfault>
nice
<adisbladis>
lovesegfault: Dodged a bullet ;)
* andi-
🙄
<gchristensen>
lol
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<cole-h>
Can someone ping me in ~3s? Testing something.
<MichaelRaskin>
cole-h: ?
<cole-h>
Perfect, thanks
<adisbladis>
cole
<adisbladis>
cole-h: Curious, what are you testing?
<cole-h>
Was wondering if my tmux-ified weechat would run notify-sends when detached
<cole-h>
And it does :)
<gchristensen>
cole-h
<cole-h>
Get outta here with your nbsp
<gchristensen>
:|
<cole-h>
:P
<lovesegfault>
I love how hetzner has a whole page on colocation and then you open it and they're like "we can colocate the server in this german city, or in it's neighbor!"
<lovesegfault>
.-.
<andi->
They also have helsinki ;-)
<lovesegfault>
:P
<lovesegfault>
andi-: Are you going to teach me how to generate a cloud image from Nix?
<andi->
I have some WIP code for hetzner bootstrapping but it is not fun yet..
<lovesegfault>
Oh, NixOps has a guide
<andi->
That is if you want to rent hardware there
<lovesegfault>
Ah, no, I want VPS
<lovesegfault>
gchristensen: has the cleaned-up nixops made it's way into nixpkgs master yet?
<lovesegfault>
I just `nix-shell -p nixops` and it yelled at me about Py2
<colemickens>
I suffer from these symptoms: https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=1619543 Though it's unclear to me what's wrong, or if that bug is still properly active based on the follow-up comments.
<colemickens>
I ship my own user though, I don't like using their metadata service + auth service + blah blah, I've had issues with it.
<colemickens>
I don't actually know why I still include google-compute-image, maybe there's something useful in it, but idk.
<lovesegfault>
why does this cloud s*** have to be so hard
<colemickens>
I don't think it is?
<lovesegfault>
it is for me :P
<Irenes[m]>
it's one of those things that gets a lot easier once you've done it a few times, but it's not easy to get people to that point
<Irenes[m]>
or at least, I've seen it get easier but I acknowledge that it might not for you
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<lovesegfault>
Can I really not give GCE a custom ISO
<lovesegfault>
I just want to boot a machine with NixOS
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<ashkitten>
why can't i remove /var/lib/containers/mastodon/var/empty?
<samueldr>
it's chattr +i
<cole-h>
Does `chattr +i` prevent root from modifying?
<samueldr>
yes
<cole-h>
Oh cool
<samueldr>
it makes the directory reaalllllly immutable
<cole-h>
Broke: `chmod -w dir`
<cole-h>
Woke: `chattr +i dir`
<ashkitten>
ah
<samueldr>
>> A file with the 'i' attribute cannot be modified: it cannot be deleted or renamed, no link can be created to this file, most of the file's metadata can not be modified, and the file can not be opened in write mode.
<samueldr>
>> Only the superuser or a process possessing the CAP_LINUX_IMMUTABLE capability can set or clear this attribute.