<gchristensen>
andi-: my dog is terrified of the rain, and satie calms her down lol
<andi->
Interesting. I never had a dog. No idea if that is common
<gchristensen>
both our dogs did
<andi->
seeing that stream reminds me of trying to by a webcam... Looks as bad as last week
<cole-h>
gchristensen: I'm lucky I checked into #-chat. Almost missed the piano again
<gchristensen>
:)
<cole-h>
Funnily enough, this music makes me think of rain
<samueldr>
hmm, it's snowing quite a ton here
<gchristensen>
:/
<colemickens>
app idea - block all calls on Android, unless I've pushed a button that says "Allow dad to call in next 30 minutes". Force the calls to be pre-negotiated.
<cole-h>
gchristensen: Thanks for the music :)
<gchristensen>
:)
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<gchristensen>
!!! it worked !!!
<samueldr>
you seem surprised
<gchristensen>
it took me a day and a half to realize I should be setting the variable AWS_SESSION_TOKEN, so yeah I'm a bit surprised I figured it out
<samueldr>
:/ I think I started that nix gc at ~20:26
<samueldr>
I'm also a bit confused, it may have been something else, but I thought I collected everything yesterday, but somehow my root partition, which mostly only holds /nix/store got filled with about 800GiB of data using the hydra evaluator... is it doing more than instantiating the .drvs ?
<samueldr>
(a bit too off-topic for -chat)
<samueldr>
110022 store paths deleted, 727497.28 MiB freed
<gchristensen>
wow
<jackdk>
is there a high score table for nix gc?
<samueldr>
[12:41:23] <samueldr> 224278 store paths deleted, 796274.36 MiB freed
<samueldr>
ok, so yeah, I did GC earlier
* samueldr
is confused
<samueldr>
where did that all come from when today I did nothing involving nix
<samueldr>
(except evaluating using the hydra evaluator)
<samueldr>
gchristensen: maybe relevant to your desire to run that evaluator on ofborg
<samueldr>
aw, I had paused (^Z) the eval that wasn't finished but it ended up collecting the nixpkgs store path it was evaluating
<gchristensen>
wow
* samueldr
abandons
<samueldr>
using strace to suss out the eval failure won't happen
<gchristensen>
ouch :(
<samueldr>
(btw that strace file was at 24GiB!)
<gchristensen>
gross!
<samueldr>
grosse indeed, but files are gendered masculine in french so it would be gros fichier :)
<drakonis>
is this a store size measurement contest?
<samueldr>
it wasn't supposed to be
<drakonis>
there was someone with a 150GiB store in the telegram group
<samueldr>
but I apparently accrued 727497.28 MiB in less than 12 hours
<drakonis>
someone else with somehow 250GiB
<drakonis>
i'm not sure how they managed these feats
<samueldr>
mine gets filled quickly with disk image builds, sometimes going a couple GiB at a time
<drakonis>
now, that's productive, those other folks aren't devs as far as i'm concerned
<drakonis>
that was a joke mind you
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<samueldr>
hmmm, could it be that all the source files were being downloaded, that the hydra evaluation filled >700GiB of nix store?
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<tilpner>
Oooh, time namespaces in 5.6 :o
<tilpner>
Not a proper solution, but Nix sandbox support for could help workaround all those "embed date in $out" instances
<__monty__>
It allows spoofing the time date(1) reports?
<tilpner>
It's not limited to date(1), but that was probably just an example
<adisbladis>
tilpner: I wonder if it would actually help though..
<adisbladis>
I think not
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<tilpner>
Why not?
<tilpner>
It's not a proper solution, in the sense that it will do nothing for Darwin users and users of Linux machines with kernel versions <5.6
<tilpner>
So it can't be relied on, and may mask unreproducability
<adisbladis>
tilpner: Because it's not a fixed clock
<adisbladis>
You're still gonna have varying build times
<adisbladis>
Even if you set the start time of every build to the same thing they are not gonna reliably take the same amount of time
<adisbladis>
I don't think it's useful at all for our purposes.
<tilpner>
Oh no, you're right. I hadn't looked at them yet, just assumed it was the same API I had seen before
<tilpner>
(But that might be memory corruption, I can't find them now)
<MichaelRaskin>
Darwin already has completely different snadboxing, so why not improve things for NixOS
<MichaelRaskin>
But yes, 5.6+ will take some time to become majority of systems
<adisbladis>
I'm not saying we shouldn't use time namespaces :) I'm just not sure they bring any value.
<MichaelRaskin>
But maybe fixing the start _date_ of the built is not making anything worse even if it rarely helps
<adisbladis>
++
<adisbladis>
It probably doesn't hurt
<MichaelRaskin>
Actually, having an ability to build in different virtual centuries might help with reproducibility testing…
<adisbladis>
Pretty cool idea!
<tilpner>
I wonder how many builds would still work if time was frozen at timestamp 1
<tilpner>
Some build processes surely rely on a duration >0 somewhere
<MichaelRaskin>
Well, they might still converge but very inefficiently…
<__monty__>
/topic Brainstorm: Let's figure out weird obscure ways to break builds that are passing without problems rn
<tilpner>
What more could you want, than deterministically broken builds?
<adisbladis>
__monty__: :D
<adisbladis>
Haha
<adisbladis>
Broken 100% of the time, totally reproducible
<adisbladis>
Reproducability nirvana
<MichaelRaskin>
Like true nirvana, looks like death from the other side
<joepie91>
wait, so what you're saying is that I can make the r13y percentage for nixpkgs shoot up by prepending an `exit 1` in the default builder?
<joepie91>
cc gchristensen, we've found a solution :P
<MichaelRaskin>
Well, you might have some problems with percentage of reproducible packages as a part of the total
<MichaelRaskin>
NaN can be nasty to handle correctly
<MichaelRaskin>
* as a part ot the total succesful builds
<gchristensen>
yay
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<aanderse>
gchristensen: do i recall correctly when you once talked about using your computer with dictation software instead of a mouse/keyboard for some activities?
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<gchristensen>
I tried it a while, but it was not good :?
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<pie_[bnc]>
aszlig: now that you brought it to my attention i will be putting more notes in commit messages
<pie_[bnc]>
or at least they should refer to a PR #
<pie_[bnc]>
but i havent actually done much PRwise so maybe thats why i didnt think about it :p
<aszlig>
pie_[bnc]: i'd actually use the full URL to the PR and only if it's not _that_ relevant
<aszlig>
eg, i've seen lots of commits with messages like "See #12345"
<aszlig>
like literally just the ID without any explanation whatsoever
<pie_[bnc]>
i probably would have done that
<aszlig>
this has a few issues: first of all, it introduces an additional indirection where people need to resort to a web page, second it's even worse if you're offline or with bad connectivity and lastly: if we one day move away from github we suddenly lose a lot of context for the commit messages in question
<aszlig>
so IMHO i think the PR/issue ID/URL is okay as an _optional_ part as long as there is enough context in the commit message
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<qyliss>
Quote liberally from web pages
<qyliss>
It should be possible to get context from just a commit message
<qyliss>
PR/issue numbers are a nice bonus but shouldn't be required for understanding
<joepie91>
+1
<__monty__>
In the hypothetical scenario where issues are migrated I hope issue numbers will be conserved. Not doing so would be horrifying.
<pie_[bnc]>
heh
<aanderse>
Ok thanks
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<cole-h>
,ping
<nix-build>
pong
<cole-h>
Bot got renamed 🤔
<drakonis>
ahhh bannerlord is out
<MichaelRaskin>
__monty__: I believe nobody cares as long as there is an available and clonable archive of all the text of discussions by-old-number
<cole-h>
Just think about all the commits that directly reference by #, not url
<cole-h>
"Is that a GitHub number? Or a GitLab number? Or a BitBucket number?"
<MichaelRaskin>
Meh. year-to-system list would take a century to become longer than a page
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<infinisil>
I can't remember last time I got a non-callcenter call on my phone..
<infinisil>
Maybe whitelisting callers could be good
<gchristensen>
my strategy is to have a non-local phone number, so if somebody local does call it is obviously a person
<cole-h>
That's actually really smart
* cole-h
moves to another area code
<infinisil>
gchristensen: Not getting that
<infinisil>
You mean you can see on the number prefix whether it's local or not?
<gchristensen>
phone numbers here start with a local prefix. so say it started with 512-...-.... that would mean it was issued in Austin, TX, but I live in Berkshire County, MA whose phone numbers start with 413-...-....
<ashkitten>
augh
<gchristensen>
if someone calls with a 413-...-.... number, I can be quite confident they are actually a person I want to talk to
<infinisil>
Ah I see
<ashkitten>
did you know, restarting services on a local machine doesn't work if you put the commands into an ssh session?
<tilpner>
They can, if you ssh back to your local machine!
<ashkitten>
point being, i accidentally just rebooted my desktop because i thought systemd was messing up on my laptop
<ashkitten>
at least i didn't reboot my server, i guess?
<tilpner>
I did that the other way around once, wanted to restart the server and suddenly my laptop shut down
<ashkitten>
lol
<tilpner>
The solution would be color-coded terminals, but I still haven't gotten around to that
<MichaelRaskin>
On my laptop, the easiest way to reboot requires physical presence confirmation
<cransom>
i know if someone calls from $localareacode it probably is a person, but that still doesn't mean it someones i really want to talk to.
<MichaelRaskin>
UID does not matter, password does not matter, physical access does
<samueldr>
how do you assert physical presence?
<samueldr>
(I see many ways, but still curious)
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<MichaelRaskin>
VT switch
<ashkitten>
switch to tty, ctrl+alt+del
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<samueldr>
ah, I thought you meant the `reboot` command didn't go through until you asserted presence, e.g. pressing the power button once
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<MichaelRaskin>
Well, the VT switch for asking a confirmation is automated
<samueldr>
ah, so it's that
<MichaelRaskin>
reboot command does nothing, but the similar reboot request switches and asks the user whether reboot is intended
<MichaelRaskin>
Same for brightness or network reconfiguration
<samueldr>
yep, sounds about right
<samueldr>
or I should say, desirable
<MichaelRaskin>
Somehow it is not how things are normally done for presence-expected systems, but oh well
<MichaelRaskin>
I was breaking all conventions anyway by that moment
<samueldr>
what is normally done?
<MichaelRaskin>
Well, there is sudo, sometimes taking into account which users have logged in via a local session
<MichaelRaskin>
Of course, if a user is logged in both via a console and via SSH these checks are not guaranteed to make sense
<MichaelRaskin>
Re: colour-coded backgrounds — it is easy to set up, but doesn't work for everyone. I failed to learn to notice the colours
<ashkitten>
i just answer phone calls no matter what, idgaf about spammers/scammers
<ashkitten>
re: gchristensen's technique
<gchristensen>
impressive, how many spam calls do you get?
<ashkitten>
like, i give out my phone number to friends in case they need to reach me, and half the time i don't actually have their phone numbers
<ashkitten>
ehh a few a week
<drakonis>
lol i get spammers every day
<gchristensen>
oh
<drakonis>
except during the quarantine because nobody's on the callcenters
<gchristensen>
yeah we're at, like, an order of magnitude difference
<ashkitten>
if i hear "social security" i hang up
<MichaelRaskin>
Yeah, ten a day would be annoying
<drakonis>
i get robocalls that shut down in 3 seconds
<MichaelRaskin>
ashkitten: don't hang up! just put the phone on the table
<drakonis>
imagine getting two dozen calls a day
<ashkitten>
protip: the social security administration doesnt use phones, unfortunately
<gchristensen>
I very much enjoy messing with fake student loan companies...
<ashkitten>
can i speak to the head of the household?
<MichaelRaskin>
«we are hiring first-line tech support, how much are you currently making»
<ashkitten>
oh that's one i haven't heard before. i only get super generic calls
<MichaelRaskin>
No, that's supposed to be _the answer_
<ashkitten>
sometimes i get one trying to sell me car insurance
<ashkitten>
i don't always tell them i don't have a car
<MichaelRaskin>
Because you already have the selection of people doing shit calls anyway!
<ashkitten>
the one that annoys me the most is the ones trying to get me to donate to cops
<ashkitten>
like, cops can go to hell
<ashkitten>
i don't even know if they're scammers or legit
<ashkitten>
well, they're scammers either way but
<cransom>
at least 4-5 times a week, i have calls that may leave a voicemail in chinese/mandarin? from dhl about an international shipment i should contact them about.
<cransom>
*purportedly dhl
<cransom>
though my favorite is the vm my spouse has where they threaten 'to report you to the local cops'
<drakonis>
lmao
<drakonis>
gchristensen: can i PM you real quick?
<gchristensen>
sure
<andi->
very excited to see nix dev-shell arrive in Nix (master). nix dev-shell --profile /my/projects/shell-gc-root <3
<cole-h>
OK, I was thinking it was gonna be something revolutionary :P
<andi->
have you ever had a projects shell environment garbage collected while on a very low speed internet connection?
<andi->
(nobody leaves the house these days, but *before* ;))
<cole-h>
haha
<cole-h>
Before I was stuck at home, I wasn't doing much Nixing
<cole-h>
So I can't say that I have ;^)
<cole-h>
But I can see how that would be useful
<cole-h>
Would that be in the case where you have auto-optimize enabled or something? Or, what would gc a shell environment without an explicit collect-garbage?
<andi->
well it is very common to have daily/regular scheduled GC on all boxes.
<andi->
I run GC every hour on my boxes
<MichaelRaskin>
Ouch. I have builds taking multiple hours sometimes!
<joepie91>
my GC is every midnight, but it doesn't nuke generations
<andi->
MichaelRaskin: that is what the temproots are for
<cole-h>
andi-: Ah, okay, makes sense. Never run into that because I haven't switched to NixOS :P
<MichaelRaskin>
andi-: but GC blocks switching to the next derivation
<andi->
I am not sure if there is a racecondition between building and the actual switching. It shouldn't be...
<MichaelRaskin>
Not a race condition, but an annoying loss of time due to locking
<andi->
You could disable the GC while you are rebuilding by pausing the timer/cron/…
<__monty__>
MichaelRaskin: It seems exceedingly silly to just throw the information in issue numbers away. It's quite easy to retain in many cases. Github -> Gitlab is what I'm most familiar with.
<MichaelRaskin>
Throw information _completely_ — sure. But the effort threshold when it is worth maintaining identical IDs is pretty low. Nobody has time to look at the merged PRs one release cycle ago anyway.
<__monty__>
I assume activity won't go down so there's thousands of issues and PRs in-flight when you migrate.
<MichaelRaskin>
it would be nice if cross-references were converted during migration, but even that might be overrated.
<__monty__>
Dumping the IDs to a file is almost the same amount of work as maintaining them in a migration. So I don't get the drama.
<MichaelRaskin>
wget once, ignore what's lost
<MichaelRaskin>
We use git which drops the single most useful piece of information every push, we don't care about history being very usable
<cole-h>
Curious what this "single most useful piece of information" is? I'm not a git wizard
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<MichaelRaskin>
Hmm, probably not every push, probably merge+push
<MichaelRaskin>
The initial branch the commit was targeted at — this often contains more meaningful information than the commit message…
<cole-h>
Got it
<cole-h>
So e.g. backports to release-20.03 lose that context
<MichaelRaskin>
They actually often do not
<MichaelRaskin>
because they are marked as cherry-picks with a commit reference
<MichaelRaskin>
But merges to staging and to master are annoying to distinguish in old history
<cole-h>
Right, that would have been a better example
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<pie_[bnc]>
MichaelRaskin: so I looked at my display-manager unit file and its actually pretty bare, basically just calls a script that runs /run/current-system/sw/bin/sddm
<pie_[bnc]>
so I guess all the magic is in config files?
<pie_[bnc]>
theres some env vars, but i havent looked at sddm.nix yet
<pie_[bnc]>
so for X11 I think it was basically just stuff in /run/current-system/share/X11
<pie_[bnc]>
and /etc/X11
<MichaelRaskin>
No idea where sddm configs go. Never used it
<pie_[bnc]>
yeah sure thats fine
<pie_[bnc]>
i was just saying
<pie_[bnc]>
so where does the whole systemd mess come in? I guess I saw mentions of polkit and logind?
<pie_[bnc]>
but also suggestions that once I have a TTY or something stuff should run fine from there
<pie_[bnc]>
(modulo X11 configs)
<pie_[bnc]>
so I guess another question I really want to ask is what your problem was? I think you said the X11 situation was why you finall decided to switch away
<MichaelRaskin>
In an actual system, running Xorg as root is enough for it to grab a fresh console
<MichaelRaskin>
With systemd… no
<pie_[bnc]>
hm, but i think I was able to run startx "fine" from the tty without root?
<MichaelRaskin>
I think it was a later development that it was anywhere near working, and also it takes over the source VT which is also not exactly what I want
<pie_[bnc]>
MichaelRaskin: well, this all may have been pointless given that I just realized SDDM allows me to start a second "session"
<pie_[bnc]>
but i may as well finish up
<pie_[bnc]>
meanwhile, I'm uncertain, do display managers call X11 or does X11 get called and you pass stuff to the display manager? because currently it's looking like the former to me... but I havent gotten far enough along to be sure
<pie_[bnc]>
i mean all I see in the display-manager service exec script is a call to sddm, no mentions of xinit or whatever
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<MichaelRaskin>
Telegram-in-Russia chronicle: there is a news item in Russia right now with the source being… official Telegram channel of the Moscow coordination center for handling the COVID-2019 situation. No, the corresponding channel entry can _not_ be found on the city government website. The same channel is actually mirrored as a VK.com public group (unlike Telegram channel, this page is visible without logging in), but news s
<joepie91>
cut off after "but news s"
<MichaelRaskin>
but news sites cite Telegram channel for some reason…
<MichaelRaskin>
Hmm, I thought ii does and honest roundtrip