<savanni>
hey, a quick question. There are some sound and video apps, subtitleedit and rhythmbox, that I want to install with the gstreamer ugly and bad plugin derivations. If I want to do that without disturbing the nixpkgs derivations, do I write an overlay on the original?
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<savanni>
Or does the original derivation need something special to support being overlayed?
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<jtojnar>
savani rhytmbox accept gst_plugins attribute so you can just do `rhytmbox.override { gst_plugins = [ ...]; }`
<jtojnar>
for other derivations you will typically need to do `foo.overrideAttrs (attrs: { buildInputs = attrs.buildInputs ++ [ ... ]; })`
<jtojnar>
doing that in overlay is fine
<savanni>
Okay, I'll use gst_plugins = for rhythmbox.override. But subtitleeditor doesn't have that, so i'm presuming I need to write some overrides. Or an overlay.
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<savanni>
So, an overlay is just for adding new derivations on top of nixpkgs? (including overridden versions of standard derivations?)
<gchristensen>
yep
<savanni>
Cool. Hm. Might consider rearchitecting my .nixpkgs directory a bit.
<jtojnar>
you set `rhytmbox = super.rhytmbox.override {...}` in your overlay too
<jtojnar>
or pass the expression with overrideAttrs directly to environment.systemPackages
<savanni>
Oh, nice. Now I get it. I also just found the docs for overrideAttrs and never realized that was an option for basically everything.
<jtojnar>
yeah, it comes from mkDerivation
<jtojnar>
whereas override comes from callPackage (through makeOverridable)
<samueldr>
and again I received unsolicitated mail from Netflix -.-
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<samueldr>
(this time en_PH is part of the promotional e-mail "SKUs"/identifiers)
<samueldr>
tired: take a penny leave a penny.... wired: fix a bug create a bug
<gchristensen>
last time I fxed a bug I added 8, so if its 1:1 you're doing great
<samueldr>
well, that penny tray thing works the same, sometimes you end up needing it once, but end up leaving 1 each of the next eight time :)
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<ashkitten>
praise hydra! nixos-unstable updated!
<srhb>
I thought it was Hail Hydra.
<srhb>
Though maybe that's not the kind of imagery we'd prefer. :P
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<ashkitten>
i've heard that phrase before but don't know the context
* colemickens
reading that Firefox has decided to follow other platforms instead of Linux conventions for url bar mouse click selection behavior. Cool, add it to the pile
<srhb>
ashkitten: It's the catch phrase of a villain group in the Marvel universe, basically a Nazi parallel, I think. Hence the "maybe not" :P
<ashkitten>
oh i see
<srhb>
colemickens: What's that behaviour?
<colemickens>
srhb: a single click in the url bar selects the entire url in Firefix 75 and up
<srhb>
Ah, I see.
<colemickens>
srhb: normal linux convention is not to do that. There used to be a chromium bug about it refencing firefox's behavior as "correct".
<ashkitten>
that's not a "other platforms" thing, it's just a chrome thing
<srhb>
I hope double click to select a single label still works.
<colemickens>
It's small, there's probably a preference for it
<colemickens>
ashkitten: that was sort of my assumption but wasnt sure
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<colemickens>
unsure of the root motivation, that is
<ashkitten>
i don't think most text fields do that on any other platform
<srhb>
Are the 75 release notes out? They weren't when I looked yesterday.
<ashkitten>
and ftr i heavily dislike chrome doing that
<samueldr>
double-click to select in the url bar was already quite broken compared to other inputs :/
<samueldr>
selecting the whole URL rather than punctuation separated words
<srhb>
samueldr: What? That works for me, I think?
<srhb>
And I use it constantly, hence my worry
<ashkitten>
chrome is extremely annoying though because the first click's release will always select the entire url, even if you drag to select a region of text
<samueldr>
srhb: oh, it never worked for me since I switched to firefox
<srhb>
samueldr: That's really odd. Just to confirm, you'd expect double click on "mozilla" in www.mozilla.org to select mozilla, right?
<samueldr>
all of it, https:// included
<samueldr>
BUT
<samueldr>
fear not
<samueldr>
it's an about:config flag
<samueldr>
browser.urlbar.doubleClickSelectsAll
<srhb>
Oh. That's the behaviour I don't want. :D
<samueldr>
the default is true
<samueldr>
I assumed it was just plainly broken :/
<srhb>
Maybe I changed it and forgot.
<samueldr>
or on upgrade from an old release it defaulted to the old behaviour
<srhb>
Yep, I definitely changed it
<samueldr>
now if only the double-click selection on line could stop being wonky :/
<srhb>
If I behave very nicely and stay "within the line boxes" it behaves as expected.
<samueldr>
yep
<srhb>
As soon as I go off the rails it's unpredictably buggy.
<samueldr>
it's amazing since I double-click since I'm sloppy!
<samueldr>
I don't want to go selecting the start of the word!
<srhb>
I actually didn't know about double-click-and-drag. :D
<lovesegfault>
adding LTO to our FF build is proving harder than expected
<lovesegfault>
nothing works
<samueldr>
srhb: try triple and quadruple now
<samueldr>
(quadruple requires an actual paragraph of text)
<samueldr>
ah, not in firefox
<srhb>
Quadruple seems to let me drag the line around. Weird.
<srhb>
But all these features, I'm not sure I can even call myself an IT-professional anymore. :')
<samueldr>
I seem to remember software where 3 is always a line, and 4 is the paragraph
<ashkitten>
who calls themselves an it professional in 2020 anyway. i thought the apocalypse had come and it was revealed to the world that computer experts are just bsing our way through life same as anyone else
<cole-h>
I was looking at ofborg logs just now (or lack thereof) and was a little worried that Loki was reporting nothing in the last hour. And then I looked at nixpkgs PRs and realized that there were indeed no PRs in the last hour
<srhb>
ashkitten: Yeah, you're absolutely right.
<samueldr>
I'm an it professional, I do it right, I'm in fact always working on it
<lovesegfault>
Y'all know that funny russian music video "chambram bedram"?
<ashkitten>
cole-h: have i mentioned the time i spent an entire day debugging rustc because it wouldn't give me any errors and then i realized the next day that my code just actually worked?
<lovesegfault>
where the guy does the lblblblblblblblb
<cole-h>
ashkitten: lmao :D
<srhb>
lovesegfault: Yes :P
<lovesegfault>
srhb: so, my inlaws are russian
<lovesegfault>
and tonight they unironically asked google home to play that
<lovesegfault>
lol
<lovesegfault>
I lost it
<lovesegfault>
they were like "Hey google, play seventh element by vitas"
<srhb>
I'm afraid I quite enjoy some of the old Vitas stuff, but I tend to be into weird music in general. xD
<ashkitten>
i trust myself so little to write working code the first time that it took 24 hours to actually consider that the compiler might not be broken
<lovesegfault>
and I was in my head "that... sounds familiar"
<srhb>
:P
<srhb>
ashkitten: I know that feeling. :P
<cole-h>
lovesegfault: How did I know exactly what song that was from the two character-word "lblblblblb"
<lovesegfault>
they said they used to listen to him play at bars in Odessa back in the day
<srhb>
Yesterday I spent like 4 hours trying to find a bug in my code, only to realize I had a big fat comment with TODO: Fix this by doing X and Y
<srhb>
Which was exactly the problem
<lovesegfault>
cole-h: because those are the lyrics@
<lovesegfault>
:P
<lovesegfault>
Tired: failing with an error message
<cole-h>
"Ha-ha-ha ha-ha-ha lblblbllbl ha-ha"
<lovesegfault>
Wired: exploding for no reason, no message
<eyJhb>
srhb: sorry I didn't answer to your corona anwer, things got it the way :p But lets see. I heard my downstairs neighbor not being that happy about it... Wondering how the average doctor feels about it!
<eyJhb>
Also, how is working from home, working out for you srhb ?
<srhb>
Yes, I'm also not sure yet, but the arguments I've seen lead me to believe it's mostly sensible.
<srhb>
Very well thank you! I'm a pretty introvert person, so the silence of working from home works really well for me.
<eyJhb>
_mostly_, I think that a smaller group would have been better :| Also not saying that they need someone to take care of the kids, because their parents can't get work done would have been better :p
<worldofpeace>
lovesegfault: I have sent https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bFTJ9-xdudM to all my music friends. Not sure if you're into experimental music, but playing with that would soo be a moment. it's amazing
<eyJhb>
Haha, I see! Then it isn't that difficult for you!
<eyJhb>
I have many distractions at home. But trying to get up early and work
<lovesegfault>
like, that last link you sent; it's such a wonderful song and it's just a bamboo flute he made and some rando bottles
<worldofpeace>
That's why it's so special
<worldofpeace>
Music really is just playfulness
<worldofpeace>
and it is embodied... pretty much perfect there.
<worldofpeace>
and just experimenting with your instrumentations
<worldofpeace>
to a normal person a bottle is just a bottle
<worldofpeace>
but it's the job of the artist to show everyone, you know, life is beautiful.
<lovesegfault>
Yeah, it's really great
<lovesegfault>
he has a video of him playing the flute and then a frog "answers"
<lovesegfault>
and then they play together
<lovesegfault>
it's super duper
<worldofpeace>
Right, I really like it also when there is this natural aspect to things. I think I've found a video where it's superimpossed
<worldofpeace>
ohh, I've found a video with stalactites. I'm now down a hole. What is your fav material from him?
<lovesegfault>
worldofpeace: I will dm you something, one moment
<etu>
docker is a dumpster fire
<etu>
A Dockerfile that does a `COPY` doesn't check if the input file for a layer has changed or even exists and use the cached layer regardless.
<etu>
I just learned this by a co-worker removing the wrong file, but it built fine for him but not for me.
<srhb>
Docker is indeed a dumpster fire.
<srhb>
But without enough Nix hammered into it, it can be almost bearable!
<etu>
So far I have zero nix in my dockers
<etu>
I'm just waiting for my colleges to want me to introduce nix for that
<etu>
Only "safe" way to do docker build is with "--no-cache", otherwise you don't know if you have all the required resources in place.
<srhb>
etu: I think there's potentially all sorts of workarounds where you can specify exact hashes, but it's not ergonomic
<srhb>
Which of course is the root of all evil.
<etu>
srhb: But we're just getting started on docker... I'm just waiting for this sorts of things to happen more often :p
<srhb>
That makes sense. :)
<srhb>
It is easier to understand why Nix makes sense once one has experienced the horror of the docker ecosystem.
<srk>
etu: poor you
<etu>
ohno
<etu>
Appearantly this was a "nice find" and not a "facepalm" of docker being a dumpster fire :/
<srk>
:) we know it is the latter already
<etu>
Yeah, I just hoped that my college would pick up on that without me being rude about it.
<srk>
People won't appreciate solid boring tech until the hyped one blows into their face
<srhb>
Time to load up the subtle "it would be nice if docker were to ... so that one could predict ... instead of arbitrary impurities ... that are irreproducible across environments ...."
<srhb>
"... wonder how many hours that will cost us over the coming years"
<srhb>
"oh hi manager type"
<srhb>
etc.
<srhb>
"What do we have deployed in prod today?" "No idea, we switched to Docker."
<srk>
"Probably Ubuntu but who cares."
<etu>
"What do we have deployed in prod today?" "A bunch of whales?"
<worldofpeace>
you have no idea what I could do with a vocal synth with that
<srk>
:)) my mikrokorg has vocoder, fun to play with
<srk>
want to play with VCVRack again but I can't find my USB/MIDI
<srk>
maybe it's a good thing as that thing is very addictive
<worldofpeace>
spacekookie: I have identifed another possible mod synth nerd, alerta, alerta. I bring them all to the yard
<worldofpeace>
srk: totally! experimentation for many many hours
<srk>
I've started building a real (modular) thing as well but that will take years .. :D
<pie_[bnc]>
srk: thats pretty rad
<worldofpeace>
srk: do you own a hand solder?
<srk>
worldofpeace: recently got TS100 (mainly to be able to do some soldering at home and repair broken quadcopters outdoors). Can recommend, TS80 is nice as well
<worldofpeace>
srk: you have no idea how perfect this moment is. thank you. thank you so much.
<srk>
yw <3 :)
<worldofpeace>
and actually, do I need a hand solder, so I will use this knowledge to my advantage
<worldofpeace>
* I do need
<colemickens>
that thing looks so neat I almost wouldn't trust it if it wasn't someone here recommending it
<colemickens>
so cute
<srk>
hehe, modern electronics and soldering tips :)
<srk>
if you already run USB Type-C go for TS80, TS100 can do some USB-PD mode but it's not ideal
<pie_[bnc]>
<bot> Lavie Tidhar on Twitter: "Her name was Kanga and she was trouble. She came into my office as I was about to dip into a honeypot. I liked honey the way priests love God. "You are Pooh? The detective?" she said. "I live under the name of Sanders. What's it to you?" "My boy," she said. "Roo. He's missing."" (image: https://pbs.twimg.com/profile_images/502045305823457280/40yBMnST_400x400.jpeg)
<sphalerite>
srk: hmm, how does qc3.0 relate to PD?
<srk>
sphalerite: wrong term I guess - USB is way too confusing
<MichaelRaskin>
Problem: there are too many types of USB cables. Solution: there are still too many types of USB cables, but now they also look the same.
<srk>
well even the fact that there's QC version 3.0 speaks for itself
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<manveru>
wonder if they'll start color-coding usb cables like resistors...
<yorick>
eyJhb: I got mine on aliexpress
<joepie91>
sphalerite: QC is a proprietary power delivery negotiation protocol, apparently 4.0 has some PD fallback/compatibility but earlier versions are unrelated to PD
<__monty__>
Am I right in thinking the USB-C mess is because of economic incentives only? I.e., the most premium USB-C cables would work for everything, power, display signals, networking, other data, but it's cheaper to manufacture USB-C cables that are only suited to a single application?
<yorick>
the TS100 works well for me, although running it on 19V leaves some power on the table that I could have used when soldering on aluminum heatsinks
<yorick>
__monty__: yes
<yorick>
__monty__: well, no, the thunderbolt cables don't do 5v anymore
<joepie91>
eyJhb: eleshop sells both TS80 and TS100, I haven't bought from them myself but afaik they are considered good by other hackerspace people
<joepie91>
unrelated: I don't think I'm going to receive the pile of wood I ordered this week...
<joepie91>
sphalerite: well hey it still kinda sorta counts :P
<joepie91>
afaik it's still import duty free for now
<yorick>
joepie91: aliexpress is pretty much EU
<yorick>
it usually ships faster than things from germany
<joepie91>
yorick: that is only true for NL in my experience
<joepie91>
and you still have the import duties thing
<__monty__>
Since people are talking about soldering. I usually see people using gel-like flux and soldering with ease. I have the liquid type of flux though. Any tips on use? Application methods, quantity?
<eyJhb>
joepie91: wish I had the money for it
<joepie91>
__monty__: when I do need flux (and I actually don't use it that often) I usually use one of the cheapo white-and-blue flux pens
<joepie91>
works well enough
<joepie91>
there's not really such a thing as "too much flux" :P
<__monty__>
But is that one of those pens with gooey flux?
<joepie91>
__monty__: nop, liquid
<joepie91>
(modifier: when using lead-free solder, you will definitely need flux)
<srk>
__monty__: even the gel-like one will turn to liquid when you apply heat
<joepie91>
it's the aliexpress special type pens I'm talking about :P
<__monty__>
srk: Yeah but it seems to conveniently kinda stick to the joints, rather than just being like herding cats.
<srk>
ah :)
<srk>
I rarely use flux, mostly when doing SMT rework. most solder wire has flux core anyway
<joepie91>
anyhow, as long as you use lead solder, honestly the bigger thing to worry about is that you actually sufficiently heat up both sides of the joint
<joepie91>
I see a lot more joints fail because of that, than because of insufficient flux
<__monty__>
I just worry about frying components.
<srk>
joepie91: recently I've heard lead-free is even worse when it comes to cold joints as they are not that easy to spot
<joepie91>
(a good soldering iron will help with this)
<__monty__>
I'm pretty sure I have lead-free rosin core solder.
<joepie91>
__monty__: common worry, but it seems to not be much of an issue. over time, I've learned to always heat things *slightly* longer than I feel comfortable doing, and then I get a good joint
<joepie91>
displays are something to be a little more careful with
<joepie91>
but most components can withstand quite a lot of heat
<joepie91>
and worst case you occasionally destroy a component and replace it :P
<joepie91>
anyway, lead-free solder is the worst
<srk>
not for your health :)
<joepie91>
srk: doubtful. turns out that lead-free solder tends to have a more toxic flux to compensate for the reduced performance of the solder itself
<joepie91>
(compensate in the sense that the flux works better, and it just also happens to be more toxic)
<__monty__>
It's not a heavy metal though.
<srk>
yeah, it is possible, there was a HN thread about this recently
<joepie91>
plus the health effects of lead solder are apparently not really meaningful anyway if you're doing hobby soldering in a well-ventilated room
<__monty__>
Yeah, definitely don't like those fumes either.
<srk>
hard to say which one is worse - lead poisoning or flux fumes
<joepie91>
it pretty much only applies if you are continuously soldering
<joepie91>
or if you have no ventilation
<__monty__>
Just more afraid (maybe irrationally) of heavy metals accumulating in my brain.
<srk>
this
<joepie91>
honestly the most important thing here is ventilation
* srk
agrees
<joepie91>
__monty__: oh, an appendix to my earlier remark about components withstanding a lot of heat; this is *not* necessarily the case if you work with very old components, eg. salvaged old audio synthesizer chips and such
<joepie91>
but modern 1000-for-a-buck-type chinesium components are hard to destroy
<joepie91>
not sure what sort of soldering you're doing exactly :P
<__monty__>
Most recent things I soldered were huge (to my standards) resistors. Seemed to take ages to solder. And even longer to desolder, solder wick didn't work at all. Had to just pull the component out while keeping the solder molten.
<__monty__>
This was on a freezer control panel.
<joepie91>
__monty__: also, for a bit more data on this... every year at revspace we participate in a 'science weekend', where mainly kids come to visit the space, and every year we have a 'soldering kit' for kids to build... sometimes they're as young as 5 or 6, really not much of a sense of "heated for too long", yet destroyed components are rare
<__monty__>
Next up is a board to interface a thinkpad keyboard to usb. Less than rice grain size components so figured they might overheat quickly.
<joepie91>
ah yeah, things with a lot of heat mass suck to solder
<joepie91>
__monty__: are these off-the-shelf chinesium components, or some sort of unobtainium thinkpad-specific chips that you can't order spares of?
<__monty__>
Off-the-shelf.
<joepie91>
__monty__: then I wouldn't worry too much, and just follow the "heat for slightly longer than you feel comfortable doing" approach, having some spare components if needed
<joepie91>
there's two failure modes, 1) bad joint, and 2) overheated, and the latter is much more likely to deterministically fail and therefore easier to diagnose
<joepie91>
so best to err on the side of overheating
<__monty__>
Ordered components in triplicate. Because I have the boards in triplicate anyway (minimum order quantity).
<joepie91>
heh
<__monty__>
Figured I'd get at least one complete board out of it, probably two and three if I get lucky : )
<joepie91>
yep, makes sense
<joepie91>
parcel delivery van counter: 5
<joepie91>
current delivery van: FedEx Express
<__monty__>
Are you trying to bring the social non-distancing to you because you can't go to it because of quarantine? >.<
<joepie91>
now that everyone is staying home, basically 100% of street traffic here is either parcel delivery vans or gardening companies
<joepie91>
lol
<joepie91>
__monty__: just counting the vans driving through the street
<joepie91>
I have a StreetView(tm) from my office window
<joepie91>
meanwhile: the supermarket e-mailed me that they are out of stock on skewers so those will be missing from my order
<joepie91>
A+ inventory management
<joepie91>
10/10 would non-buy again
<__monty__>
All those shish kabobs that are gonna stay un-shished though o.O
<__monty__>
I count delivery vans going to one house outside my window. It's like 2-3 a day on average, at least.
<joepie91>
__monty__: nah, I use them for gardening
<srk>
:))
<joepie91>
and I'm starting to run out, hence including them in my order
<joepie91>
I also severely underestimated how many plant pots I'd need
<joepie91>
so I need to order more of those soon as well :P
<srk>
hehe, garden centers here were overflowing during weekends as they were almost the only one shops open
<MichaelRaskin>
Hmmmm. Build&Garden shop here sells _some_ food, I wonder if they were allowed to stay open…
<joepie91>
MichaelRaskin: Hornbach (hardware store chain) usually has a food court thingem, they closed that down here
<joepie91>
srk: they're overflowing here as well, but for a different reason, the same reason that trash collection sites are overflowing
<joepie91>
namely, the answer to "I have seas of time and nothing to do, what now" seems to be "cleaning the house" and "doing the gardening" for most of the population :P
<MichaelRaskin>
food court is the first thing to shut down, Bau und Garten has some packaged food (of the storage-conditions-indifferent kind)
<joepie91>
parcel delivery van counter: 6
<joepie91>
current delivery van: UPS
<joepie91>
I'm actually a little surprised that they're even allowed to drive these US-style open-side vans in NL
<joepie91>
anyway, there's still one delivery company missing, and it's the one that has my parcel: DHL
<joepie91>
✅ transport company truck
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<joepie91>
✅ DHL
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* colemickens
"I wonder if this frequently updated thing is upda..." 17 minutes ago.
* colemickens
loves it though. v0.67090.0; stable be damned
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<eyJhb>
It's hard arguing with anyone who does not care for security...
<__monty__>
No it's not! >: (
<__monty__>
; )
<eyJhb>
YES IT IS! :(
<pie_[bnc]>
arianvp: why is it so damn hard to find a link to your masters thesis with your name lol
<eyJhb>
Bad __monty__ ! :p
<joepie91>
eyJhb: I've found the prospect of GDPR fines to be a reasonably effective stick to bat people around the head with, when they do that
<joepie91>
and/or a reasonably useful excuse for them to send the problem up the chain to Legal
<joepie91>
(when it's eg. a coworker or boss being an irresponsible ass)
<pie_[bnc]>
arianvp: ok maybe its not hard actually
<pie_[bnc]>
arianvp: is generic programming on mutually recursive datatypes the most complicated thing someone can try to do in a functional typed language? :P
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<eyJhb>
joepie91: kinda hard when dealing with a friend. But I could of course just bat him with a bat?
<drakonis>
like a bat outta hell?
<__monty__>
Did the corona virus come from such a bat?
<joepie91>
eyJhb: hm, yeah, that's harder. if it's not a case of occupational apathy, maybe try to appeal to their better nature? :P
<joepie91>
responsibility and harm to others and all that
<drakonis>
__monty__: its complicated.
<drakonis>
but not really
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<eyJhb>
All the bad bats out there! joepie91 - the bat seems easier
<joepie91>
lol
<etu>
jtojnar: Thank's for fixing this, not thanks for mentioning me in the commit message. Because now I had to opt out of messages on this fork — but whenever someone forks it and does something to the commit, like rebasing or whatever I will get emails for all forks: https://github.com/NixOS/nixpkgs/commit/39247f8d04c04b3ee629a1f85aeedd582bf41cac
<cole-h>
:(
* etu
learned some time ago to not @ users in commit messages
<qyliss>
wow github
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<drakonis>
dont @ me
<qyliss>
can you disable notifications just for mentions in commits?
* cole-h
learned to only tag issues and PRs to close in the PR body and not the commit body after force-pushing 6 times in a single commit
<cole-h>
s/single commit/single PR/
<qyliss>
at least that doesn't notify anybody
<etu>
"Email notification preferences" -> 1) "Comments on Issues and Pull Requests" 2) "Pull Request reviews" 3) "Pull Request pushes" 4) "Include your own updates"
<etu>
This is probably not a notification
<qyliss>
Do they CC something special maybe?
<etu>
Since it was sent *to* me
<qyliss>
I don't remember the last time I got mentioned in a commit so can't check
<etu>
or a thread where I was mentioned
<MichaelRaskin>
Well, technically it _does_ show up in Notifications view
<joepie91>
"we care about your privacy concerns a lot, that's why we decided to change away from recaptcha only after they started charging us for the use"
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<ashkitten>
i need to get some more "fuck cloudflare" captcha stickers from my friend once this pandemic is over
<cole-h>
Power went out right as go/no-go started. :(
<MichaelRaskin>
Well, I have to admit hCAPTCHA _is_ better
<MichaelRaskin>
I mean, reCAPTCHA is right now optimised for annoying the users who are not sufficiently well targetable by AdNonsense, and hCAPTCHA actually was the classification data so the input UI is good unlike reCAPTCHA
<gchristensen>
I like that hcaptcha doesn't look like I'm training a spy plane
<srk>
I feel like I'm training self driving cars
<gchristensen>
that too
<srk>
I'm a cyclist so getting 'Pick all the cars' is quite rage inducing
<samueldr>
reCAPTCHA had terrible classification "goals", where it's literally garbage in garbage out
<samueldr>
so even for that reason alone it's good to not use it, and not train terrible data sets that are likely going to end up wrongly identifying things
<MichaelRaskin>
reCAPTCHA has classigfication goal of annoying people not logged in to Google account
<MichaelRaskin>
The rest is lie
<samueldr>
you can tell yourself that
<samueldr>
but both goals are not against eachothers
<MichaelRaskin>
They are pretty clearly giving images they have already classified
<MichaelRaskin>
Like, they are just very similar in a way
<MichaelRaskin>
Also, intentional slow-load of images
<samueldr>
they are giving classified images, indeed, otherwise they'd have to match unknowns as "answers", and they are likely sending similar images to validate assumptions (which are likely bad due to bad training)
<samueldr>
slow loading is orthogonal to training, it's part of making the experience harder for users without a "good profile"
<MichaelRaskin>
It really looks like a perfectly stable equilibrium of garbage data
<samueldr>
yep
<samueldr>
"pick store fronts"
<samueldr>
half of these are in a script I cannot read
<samueldr>
most of the others in languages I don't know
<MichaelRaskin>
Slow loading is orthogonal to training, but it increases input error rate
<samueldr>
for all I know they could be ads
<MichaelRaskin>
If you intentionally increase input error rate, either you discard the data anyway, or your processes are so broken you will get garbage even on correct input
<ashkitten>
oh i just get them from my friend who has tons of them
<ashkitten>
along with &KNUCKLES stickers to put next to brand logos
<aleph->
> Me uses cloudflare
<{^_^}>
undefined variable 'Me' at (string):296:1
* aleph-
meeps
<joepie91>
walkie-talkie noises we have localized a hot source of the stickers
<aleph->
I really should change my DNS provider
<ashkitten>
i use cloudflare for dns because it lets me use lets encrypt for wildcard certs
<aleph->
Oh yeah right, that's why I use them
<aleph->
Think there's another easy one I can use...
<joepie91>
aleph-: might I suggest dns.he.net
<joepie91>
aleph-: antiquated UI, doesn't do wildcard or geo DNS, falls over for a few hours every 2 years or so, but is free and otherwise reliable and fast
<joepie91>
ashkitten: huh? why does that require a specific DNS provider?
<drakonis>
things dont look so good for kde either
<drakonis>
a chunky yikes for me here
<gchristensen>
ouch.
<aleph->
joepie91: Yeah we use a wildcard solely for the reason they describe
<aleph->
Wanted to use LE for 50+ hosts
<aleph->
Rate Limit go brrrrr
<gchristensen>
lol
<pie_[bnc]>
drakonis: huh interesting
<MichaelRaskin>
re: security of practices — LE looks like «CAs are so bad we will do the truly bare minimum and it will still be better»,
<joepie91>
drakonis: this is normally the point where I say that this sort of thing is exactly why I distrust commercial open-source, shortly after which someone will pipe up with an indignant response telling me how it's unfair to paint all of commercial open-source with that brush
<drakonis>
well, this is a particular instance of the commercial entity being suicidal
<joepie91>
honestly, I doubt they are.
<ashkitten>
it always throws me off that siivagunner has 2 i's but one is capitalized (SiIvagunner)
<joepie91>
keep in mind that Qt's core business most likely is proprietary embedded vendors
<drakonis>
there used to be a gilvasunner too
<drakonis>
it is the automotive industry, yes.
<ashkitten>
is it gilva or giIva
<drakonis>
there's a dozen variants
<ashkitten>
aaaaaa
<ashkitten>
isnt it the same person?
<drakonis>
no
<drakonis>
the original is silvagunner
<drakonis>
with the output, its unlikely it is even a single person
<ashkitten>
siivagunner is a submissions channel
<drakonis>
the original seems to be a single person
<gchristensen>
drakonis: I sort of get the impression a lot of companies are having to go to the brink of suicide to make it through :x
<drakonis>
scary isnt it
<gchristensen>
yup...
<MichaelRaskin>
Arguably, it also applies to countries
<pie_[bnc]>
i guess they wont be throwing any money at me to work on my binding generator
<drakonis>
its uniquely terrible
<MichaelRaskin>
I guess worst case for Qt the company is their customers getting enough of a handle of their own in-house development practices to be _able_ to comply with GPL.
<drakonis>
i'm not looking forward to the outcome of this
<drakonis>
and whether any other company will decide to make such a move
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<sphalerite>
ashkitten: I thought ldlework was called Idlework for a long time.
<ashkitten>
luckily in my irc client i use a font that differentiates between I and l
* ldlework
mutters "drats" under his breath.
<cole-h>
Yep, I made Iosevka have the "curly" l for that exact reason
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<cole-h>
I've always called them "ladlework" in my head ;)
<samueldr>
work that ladle... no soup for you!
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<aleph->
snrk
<joepie91>
no, it's srk, not snrk
<cole-h>
I almost wooshed myself -- was about to say snrk is the sound you stop your snort-laugh in the nose or something
* colemickens
spends too much time baby sitting remote builds that hang on "copying path"
<srk>
hehe, I can't get my head around oddtimes :D
<samueldr>
ott/idmes, not odd/times...
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<ottidmes>
actually it is: ottid mes :P
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<samueldr>
I just didn't want to ping you
<cole-h>
audit me's?
<ottidmes>
ottid = reversed ditto = not the same as, and if you see me show some gist, you know my name, some stupid idea I had as a nickname
<srk>
ahaa!
<srk>
got mine randomly .. risko -> sorki -> srk
<cole-h>
Bet you can't guess how I got mine
<ottidmes>
at this point I thought it better to just stick with it, even though I am not particular fond of it, my normal nickname is completely random, but I had have cases where it was taken, so I preferred something more unique, well this one is XD
<samueldr>
mine's just as unusual
<eyJhb>
Damn I hate the docker sourcecode...
<gchristensen>
my original irc nickname was random but people thought it was a misspelling of something else and I *hated* it the moment I heard someone try to pronounce it, so I ditched to this :)
<ottidmes>
I thought I use my .name domain for my mail address, only to find out that in practice people are not familiar with it as a top-level domain, so I have had multiple questions about it, so now I just stuck with the well known ones
<cole-h>
Hm, since grhmc says they will no longer read their email, sounds like it's time to redirect all my spam there, too...
<cole-h>
>;)
<cole-h>
yo gchristensen my dad picked up the exact same bread book from the library that's crazy
<gchristensen>
it is The bread book, so ... good choice
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<cole-h>
He made some recently and it was pretty good. The crust was very crispy.
<cole-h>
I think he cooked it on a pizza stone, so the bottom tasted a little like pizza crust, too
<gchristensen>
nice
<gchristensen>
before moving nearby to Berkshire Mountain Bakery I made all of my bread for ~5 years -- sourdough, white, wheat, baguette
<gchristensen>
not bagels I guess. though I hear they're pretty easy.
<cole-h>
Wow, that's pretty cool
<cole-h>
What's your favorite type of bread to bake?
<gchristensen>
nothing beats a fresh loaf of bread coming out of the oven :)
<ottidmes>
true
<srk>
now I want to bake one
<srk>
services.bread.enable = true;
<cole-h>
It was really good. He only made 3 loaves, and I pretty much ate one all by myself
<gchristensen>
a simple wheat sandwich bread absolutely covered with sesame or poppy seeds is my favorite :)
<ottidmes>
I like sunflower floor bread the most (not sure if that translates well to English), but freshly baked bread wins from all
<MichaelRaskin>
I am immune to the temptation, I only have microwave and hotplate.
<cole-h>
Make bread with a hotplate to prove you're a professional
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<MichaelRaskin>
That sounds like work
<gchristensen>
especially when it is fresh and generously laden with fancy butter
<MichaelRaskin>
I do dry-fry flour-and-water dough sometimes, that's closer to pizza I guess (cheese is sometimes also involved).
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<ottidmes>
gchristensen: did/do you use a bread machine?
<gchristensen>
nah
<gchristensen>
bread is easy, and doesn't take a lot of active time -- just like 15 minutes every few hours
<gchristensen>
you can't really screw it up. once you add yeast, what comes out the other end will be bread
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<ottidmes>
lol
<ottidmes>
I one had the plan, but never gone past buying the necessary flour :P
<ottidmes>
*once
<MichaelRaskin>
I believe you can screw it up by adding too much yeast, but I guess the machine won't save you anyway
<gchristensen>
the hardest part is having confidence enough
<MichaelRaskin>
In most cases lack of confidence can be replaced by not caring
<gchristensen>
good enough
<cransom>
too much yeast just means it will rise super fast. you'll have less flavor development and probably poofy bread unless you are on top of shaping and baking quickly.
<cransom>
but you can start with the tinyest amount and it will be good, just takes longer
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<MichaelRaskin>
cransom: well, if you add too much, then ignore it until your alarm says it's time for the next step, you can achieve a partial failure
<danderson>
yeah, strictly speaking the codebase is now OpenZFS
<drakonis>
one linux, two linux, three linux, ah ah ah
<danderson>
which has diverged from Oracle ZFS
<drakonis>
oracle still holds the patents on those things
<danderson>
and OpenZFS doesn't have CLAs or anything afaik, so under CDDL the files are owned by the bunch of people who contributed to it - and so all those people would have to approve a relicense
<danderson>
so, paperwork headache. But separately, in any case Oracle would just go "lol no, thanks for asking tho"
<drakonis>
and that's a big problem
<gchristensen>
which is the same reason there basically can't be a lawsuit against distributing zfs with linux
<drakonis>
llvm succeeded in relicensing to apache 2.0
<gchristensen>
all the contributors to linux
<drakonis>
ibm would likely squash oracle
<drakonis>
anyways, this is best described as being afraid of oracle's litigious nature
<drakonis>
see oracle vs google
<drakonis>
big chunky money here
<MichaelRaskin>
Well, it's true that IBM as an insurance company could have a more interesting strategy than the advertisment company in question…
<gchristensen>
TIL Cyan is still making great games
<danderson>
but really it boils down to "Linux Foundation's lawyers think GPLv2 and CDDL aren't compatible. Redhat and Canonical disagree"
<drakonis>
oh yeah i was going to point that one out
<danderson>
and there are _massive_ ZFS on linux deployments, by very important fancy outfits, so it's not like you're gambling on untested code
<gchristensen>
bingo
<danderson>
it's just about "it might take a while to catch up to upstream kernel API changes because those jerks won't let us live upstream"
<gchristensen>
as soon as LF's lawyers send us mail to tell us (and other distributions) to stop, we will stop :P
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<__monty__>
gchristensen: They have a new one?
<danderson>
e.g. when upstream nerfed ZoL's ability do use SIMD for crypto, which completely tanked encrypted dataset performance for a couple weeks
<gchristensen>
they have a bunch of games
<danderson>
until everyone started carrying the "undo upstream's dumb change" patch :)
<drakonis>
haw
<gchristensen>
danderson: usually known as "the nixos patch" in #zfsonlinux :)
<drakonis>
i gotta see dis
<drakonis>
do they have public logs?
<gchristensen>
I think since we were the first to revert it
<yorick>
gchristensen: so then everyone will use a zfs on linux nix flake?
<danderson>
and on the whole I'd much rather have a kernel written in rust than C
<drakonis>
ah its just the slide deck style
<gchristensen>
async is still very apinful
<drakonis>
it vaguely reminds me of the style used by google employee talks
<drakonis>
gregkh has shown interest in allowing it through
<drakonis>
not as a default
<srk>
I've managed to generate Ivory/Tower (Haskell eDSL) -> C kernel module. it can run coroutine demo printing with printk :D
<danderson>
I think gregkh's position is: everyone is interested in *talking* about how great rust in the linux kernel would be
<danderson>
but... it's just talk, not working code
<drakonis>
there's the repository i linked
<gchristensen>
hehehehehe
<drakonis>
its a real thing
<drakonis>
just gotta get upstreamed you see.
<drakonis>
now the real highlight here is ebpf getting abused in incredibly crazy ways
<__monty__>
∠( ᐛ 」∠)＿ gchristensen
<gchristensen>
gonna have to see some kernel modules written in rust doing some real gnarly stuff before you can say it really works
<srk>
can you build linux for ebpf? :D
<drakonis>
cilium wrote a bpf library in go
<drakonis>
not yet, but i cant wait for the day :V
<drakonis>
when can we build nix for ebpf :V?
<danderson>
between ebpf and io_uring, won't be long before the kernel becomes a BPF VM with an uring attached
<MichaelRaskin>
gchristensen: to be fair, the gnarliest stuff requires so much horrible things with hardware that Rust would be of less use there (because everything would need to be in unsafe blocks)
<__monty__>
drakonis: Unladen Swallow was a real thing too though.
<drakonis>
danderson: that seems to be what i'm hearing
<drakonis>
__monty__: haw
<drakonis>
remind me how this one failed?
<__monty__>
I don't know exactly. Google pulled the plug.
<drakonis>
this looks like a fun story
<__monty__>
I think there were some technical obstacles.
<drakonis>
python 3 maybe?
<__monty__>
Don't think so.
<srk>
just python :)
<drakonis>
google pulled the funding and then python 3 came out and all work became useless
<__monty__>
Feel free to fill me in/correct me when you figure it out.
<drakonis>
what are the odds this is going to get shoved into kubernetes?
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<joepie91>
danderson: are kernel devs actually *open* to having components in Rust though? I've seen a lot of projects go "we don't want the extra tooling unless a significant part of the project is converted to Rust" which puts the baseline requirement outside of what someone can whip up as a weekend project and PoC
<joepie91>
which stalls the entire process
<danderson>
joepie91: gregkh has said yes multiple times, including recently, so I think so?
<joepie91>
danderson: interesting. makes me wonder why it hasn't happened yet. have a link?
<drakonis>
joepie91: missing basic functionality according to gregkh
<joepie91>
that's a bit vague
<drakonis>
he hasnt specified anything
<cole-h>
Vague is good, when you're that prominent a figure
<joepie91>
that's unfortunate :( would be interesting to read about the issues
<danderson>
almost certain that just means "the people actually sending patches to the kernel aren't using rust, so there's probably some basic setup stuff that's missing"
<cole-h>
Can't be held to it
<joepie91>
cole-h: that also discourages people from actually trying to contribute to it though
<danderson>
gregkh is firmly in the "I don't care about talk, send me working code *then* we'll talk" camp
<joepie91>
there's a lot of value in publicly defining your goals/requirements/acceptance criteria
<danderson>
sure, if you care about it happening. The current kernel devs don't care about this happening, they're perfectly fine continuing as-is for ever
<drakonis>
also there's a gregkh comment on having a plan for replacing linus
<danderson>
so it's on the people who *want* to add rust to do the work
<danderson>
joepie91: opinions are fine, but unless you're in charge of the project, they don't mean much :/
<srk>
yeah, heard that as well but not following it closely
<srk>
makes more sense then just allowing rust linux modules
<danderson>
which sucks, because linux is now de-facto the universal thing, and it's an actual serious problem that its project management style is "become buddies with the clique that runs stuff"
<joepie91>
danderson: aware, which is why I'm not expanding on them unless someone actually wants to hear them, because I'm under no illusion that ranting about kernel management here is gonna change anything for the better :)
<drakonis>
danderson: that's everything, sadly.
<MichaelRaskin>
Well, given the precedents of Linus rejecting a patch (while agreeing it works) specifically for having too grand a vision, people who want Rust in kernel do small PoCs to know the cards they have, and mount a publicity campaign…
<drakonis>
its a human failing
<joepie91>
and I will likely either be preaching to the choir or trying to convince someone who doesn't want to hear any of it
<danderson>
drakonis: the opposite solution is construct a democracy
<danderson>
e.g. Debian
<drakonis>
MichaelRaskin: which patch was this?
<joepie91>
drakonis: eh, not everything, per se
<danderson>
it fails in a *different* way, but at least everybody is equally unwelcome :P
<drakonis>
debian's democracy is so ossified it cannot reasonably react to change in a reasonable pace
<cole-h>
colemickens: Do you use waybar?
<danderson>
drakonis: but, Debian endures.
<drakonis>
it certainly does.
<danderson>
it moves at a glacial pace, but it moves.
<joepie91>
drakonis: there are projects that intentionally run differently (eg. ZeroMQ), and things that run differently unintentionally (I didn't exactly gain my op hat in #Node.js by making friends :P)
<joepie91>
drakonis: an entire book has even been written about the ZeroMQ case
<MichaelRaskin>
drakonis: I remember reading this email years ago (and remembering it does look like a position statement), I do not remember what exactly it was
<vika_nezrimaya>
who's lazier - Nix or us humans? :3
<drakonis>
hyoomans
<colemickens>
cole-h: no, i refuse to maintain a css file for a status bar
<danderson>
it's like that thought experiment of "if you had a consciousness that only had a thought every million years, from its perspective time would be moving normally
<danderson>
debian is basically a sketch of a proof of that thought experiment :D
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<cole-h>
colemickens: :P Doesn't need to be maintained, but fair
<drakonis>
haha, well, touche
<colemickens>
I haven't found one that just worked, but that could be a "I'm using it wrong" thing.
<gchristensen>
debian is sort of a cool social experiment. one thing about debian is it gets done, and it will survive
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<drakonis>
they just recently voted to make systemd their primary init and make sysvinit best effort support
<cole-h>
colemickens: https://i.imgur.com/0uvH7DU.png My css is 34 lines long and I haven't touched it since I started using it (except some color changes every once in a while...)
<vika_nezrimaya>
drakonis: wasn't it always like this?...
<drakonis>
no
<drakonis>
it wasnt
<drakonis>
rather, it was never official
<drakonis>
now it is
<gchristensen>
they downgraded sysv from equally supported to best-effort
<danderson>
didn't really cause much controversy, fwiw. A vocal minority was very vocal, because their spite-fork was dependent on debian still doing most of the work and them just swapping PID 1 out
<cole-h>
(I was asking if you used waybar because all of a sudden, my cursor looks HUGE when I hover over the bar)
<danderson>
and this change would mean that they now actually have to, like, _support_ the distro, and do a lot of work.
<drakonis>
ah devuan.
<colemickens>
cole-h: tbh my cursor is weirdly sized all the time and I have no idea why, it's not really consistent in any way I can figure out
<colemickens>
cole-h: it even varies based on theme selected
<cole-h>
The thing is, I didn't change anything
<MichaelRaskin>
Well, note that there was that issue of package maintainers ignoring patches for sysv-init support
<cole-h>
Like, literally nothing changed
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<cole-h>
Except power dying twice in a span of 4 hours
<danderson>
anyway - yes, systemd at this point is an OS construction kit on top of the linux kernel. I'm okay with that. Linux needed one.
<MichaelRaskin>
So doing the work was not sufficient
<danderson>
I may have notes on the exact construction kit we ended up with, but it's still better than no construction kit.
<danderson>
MichaelRaskin: right - and so their position on the vote was "no, force maintainers to do our work for us"
<danderson>
to which debian thankfully voted "naah"
<danderson>
(biased opinon, obviously)
<drakonis>
the real irony of the spite fork was the big letter
<drakonis>
that proposed a debian fork
<MichaelRaskin>
danderson: well, «force maintainers accept our work» was also opposed
<danderson>
also sgtm. If you force maintainers to do something, they'll just walk away
<colemickens>
cole-h did you change output configs, plug in an external monitor, etc?
<danderson>
maintainers are the majority "work providers" for debian, and they voted with their feet to not bother with sysv
<MichaelRaskin>
Having a construction kit with the general stance diametrically opposite to the underlying kernel has some drawbacks
<danderson>
the policy change is just recognizing that
<cole-h>
Nope, nothing. I haven't touched my sway config in the past few days
<cole-h>
Hm, but I did enable the new hm setting `targets.genericLinux` recently...
* cole-h
tries disabling
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<cole-h>
Nop
<joepie91>
I'm happy to announce that I have found (or well, someone else has for me) the tab management extension that I've been looking for for some time now
<joepie91>
automatically catches and moves tabs to groups based on configured URL regexes, and allows search through all tabs + bulk-moving them to groups
<cole-h>
So somebody finally stepped up and made it work, rather than whining that it would be impossible with the webext changes
<cole-h>
Yay
<gchristensen>
oh neat
<MichaelRaskin>
I think the complaints were about tree style tabs?
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<cole-h>
piro_or doing $deity's work
<MichaelRaskin>
(I don't have long-living Firefox instances anymore, otherwise I would have it installed already)
<cole-h>
Oh. Uh, I do.
<cole-h>
I've been trying to get better (and bookmarking things I won't read anytime soon)
<cole-h>
But you can see how well that's working
<ottidmes>
I love that addon, only downside is that I sometimes end up with hundreds of open tabs
<cole-h>
"downside"
<colemickens>
yeah, I've become what I despised because of TST. And worse, I use nightly and lose sessions sometimes and that is mighty painful
<colemickens>
trying to remember every project I've touched for 3 days and had state in that firefox session :|
<ottidmes>
Ow, I never lose sessions with Firefox, only with Chrome
<gchristensen>
I prefer to close all but 4 tabs every day anyway
<joepie91>
cole-h: whoa. you have balrog boogie open?
<cole-h>
joepie91: Yeah, somebody suggested it last night while we were suggesting music
<samueldr>
what is a man? a miserable pile of tabs
<joepie91>
I thought the diablo swing orchestra were super obscure, but apparently not
<joepie91>
:P
<ottidmes>
samueldr: true as well
<cole-h>
It was srhb
<cole-h>
Who suggested DSO
<joepie91>
I actually first ran across them on Jamendo
<MichaelRaskin>
I used Jamendo more before the redesign, sorting by popularity then reversing the order was an option back then.
<ottidmes>
With some songs I am actually happy I don't speak the language, thinking I might be weirded out of if I actually understood the lyrics :P
<joepie91>
MichaelRaskin: yeah, the redesign was junk. I'm not a fan of their increased closedness either
<joepie91>
and seems like it's still slow as heck
<joepie91>
ever since that redesign...
<MichaelRaskin>
JS-only and eternity for showing anything but the loading animation
<ldlework>
Go anyone?
<joepie91>
Go anyone what?
<gchristensen>
the board game?
<ldlework>
Anyone want to play.
<joepie91>
oh :P
<MichaelRaskin>
I was wondering if you have a particularly complicated question about Golang build tooling in Nixpkgs
<ottidmes>
Is there a list somewhere of where Nix is used? I remember there was a programming language that used it as its main package manager
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<qyliss>
It makes me sad when the conversation around systemd is as if the only alternative is sysvinit
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<MichaelRaskin>
There is sinit and complete lack of service supervision. Still superior to systemd!
<MichaelRaskin>
(that's what I run on my laptop)
<qyliss>
sysvinit was terrible
<drakonis>
its what people are nostalgic for
<drakonis>
its usually "new thing bad, old thing good"
<qyliss>
and there are vastly better init/supervision systems that are still not ever-expanding bloatware
<qyliss>
At the time, there wasn't much competition, and it's a real shame that systemd is what came along first to fill the gap
<qyliss>
But sysvinit did have to go
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<drakonis>
upstart enjoyed a really brief amount of attention before it got ditched
<drakonis>
briefly enjoyed attention
<drakonis>
canonical really screwed that one with their CLA
<gchristensen>
it also was sort of not very coherent
<qyliss>
I'm looking forward to either finding or writing some little standalone programs that replace stuff like systemd's DynamicUser
<joepie91>
qyliss: unfortunately systemd wasn't the first and won't be the last thing to get introduced in this exact way
<qyliss>
because another nice thing that systemd did wa show us that that can be easy
<joepie91>
qyliss: there's a chronic issue in Linux-land of people refusing to acknowledge that the old and crappy tools are just that
<joepie91>
so shit never get fixed
<joepie91>
until someone with enough clout comes along, and more importantly, enough "this is my baby" motivation to push it through
<qyliss>
Yeah
<MichaelRaskin>
Usually without actually understanding the details of other solutions, so messing up something really trivial
<joepie91>
and then you get a monolithic monster
<joepie91>
and until the rest of Linux land gets their shit together in acknowledging the UX issues that exist... this will reoccur
<drakonis>
you have a dozen distros with a variety of policies and approaches to things
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<joepie91>
qyliss: I actually would not be surprised if the shell were the next victim of this process... and it might very well end up being Microsoft doing this one in
<samueldr>
y'all have been rays of sunshines during this day on #nixos-chat :/
<drakonis>
its the isolation, its doing terrible things to us
<ashkitten>
<3 samueldr
<{^_^}>
samueldr's karma got increased to 199
<drakonis>
one more
<drakonis>
samueldr++
<{^_^}>
samueldr's karma got increased to 200
<joepie91>
(powershell and all)
<qyliss>
there does seem to be a lot of interesting stuff happening in the shell space
<gchristensen>
(powershell is pretty nice...)
<drakonis>
wrangling a dozen distros into being consistent can be a problem
<samueldr>
don't you understand gchristensen, you can't have a nuanced opinion, it's either "$THING bad" or "$THING good"
<MichaelRaskin>
It cannot not be a problem
<gchristensen>
:)
<MichaelRaskin>
wrangling dozens of distros into being consistent _is_ the problem
<ashkitten>
powershell would be nice if i could remember the names of any of the commands
<MichaelRaskin>
It's not the task to perform, this activity itself existing is a problem.
* samueldr
is cranky and hangry, probably
<qyliss>
I agree
<qyliss>
Ditros shouldn't all be the same
<ashkitten>
and if it didn't break things that tried to ssh into a machine expecting bash
<MichaelRaskin>
With shell it is destined to be a disaster
<MichaelRaskin>
Because once you know shell well, there is a class of task which are just horribly unergonomic with literally anything else
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<ashkitten>
that's why i'm mildly excited for oil
<qyliss>
MichaelRaskin: I've found execline to be preferable to shell for almost everything I would have previously used a shell script for.
* joepie91
seriously considers it plausible that Powershell will take over as the common Linux shell at some point (possibly with a compat layer, like happened with systemd)
<ashkitten>
honestly i hope powershell does
<qyliss>
Compat layers are important
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<qyliss>
Not much happens without them
<MichaelRaskin>
Ouch that syntax
<qyliss>
systemd, Wayland, Pulse, Pipewire all have compat layers
<ashkitten>
i'd like if nixos could one day run on a bsd
<joepie91>
imo the biggest advantage of Powershell - that a lot of *nix shell enthusiasts continue to refuse to acknowledge as something that matters, unfortunately - is that it isn't 100% string-based, you can pipe structural information
<joepie91>
a ton of the UX papercuts in typical Linux-y shells come from it trying to pretend that everything is a string
<qyliss>
ashkitten: I'd like that too
<qyliss>
I think it would force us to be much more flexible
<ashkitten>
gchristensen: lgtm 👍
<qyliss>
And that would be good even for Linux users
<joepie91>
gchristensen: "It's now as clean as this post!" -- Publish
<gchristensen>
lol
<ashkitten>
qyliss: if nixos modules could be made os-agnostic, that would be so good
<ashkitten>
that's my dream for nixos
<ashkitten>
i don't know what i can do to help it right now, though
<qyliss>
ashkitten: help with the FreeBSD efforts
<cole-h>
gchristensen: :shipit:
<ashkitten>
there are freebsd efforts?
<qyliss>
Yep
<qyliss>
Two open PRs about it, and #freebsd-nix
<ashkitten>
i know there are for nix, but i wasn't aware of anything about nixos
<qyliss>
Well, you can't even run Nixpkgs on BSD at the moment
<qyliss>
gotta start somewhere
<ashkitten>
ah
<ashkitten>
i might look into it for netbsd at some point, since that's what i'd be most likely to use and support
<qyliss>
I think NixOS will need to be redesigned at some point
<qyliss>
Or replaced?
<ashkitten>
yeah a replacement for nixos shouldn't be out of the question, i think. it's good to keep an open mind
<qyliss>
But I think we're not really realising Nix's potential by continuing to embrace global mutable state at runtime
<MichaelRaskin>
First we need to find a reasonable balance for Nixpkgs redesign
<MichaelRaskin>
qyliss: NixOS modules approximate embracing it even at eval-time!
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<qyliss>
that too
<ashkitten>
oh dear
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<MichaelRaskin>
Because on one hand I agree with Eelco that hello/default.nix should not define a function at all, but on the other hand we need overrides because without them a ton of stuff is unusable (starting with cross, I guess)
<ashkitten>
also i think we should start enforcing nixpkgs style guidelines at some point... but i'm afraid that'll lead to even more bikeshedding than what people already complain about
<MichaelRaskin>
And a good long term design there is hard
<qyliss>
We do have style guidelines
<ashkitten>
they're not enforced afaik
<qyliss>
Not automatically
<qyliss>
It's up to the reviewer
<qyliss>
That could definitely be improved
<ashkitten>
i've seen a lot of packages that are pretty gross looking in my opinion
<MichaelRaskin>
Whatever guidelines are, once nixpkgs-fmt output is consistently nice, it will hopefully replace the guidelines…
<qyliss>
I don't like the nixpkgs-fmt style :(
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<qyliss>
I really really dislike the one function argument per line thing
<ashkitten>
^
<ashkitten>
it makes everything very hard to read
<ashkitten>
it's too long
<MichaelRaskin>
Well, I think a lot of people do that even manually
<MichaelRaskin>
And Github cannot really diff, so
<ashkitten>
it gets really bad when you have 50+ arguments to a derivation
<MichaelRaskin>
(with a wdiff, normal lines work great and _moved_ arguments are clearly visible; with line-by-line diffs, people complain, then switch to that column approach)
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<qyliss>
it's a shame that the github model encourages people to make decisions based on what one (proprietary!) program supports
<ashkitten>
yeah
<MichaelRaskin>
If you really dislike that style, maybe try starting a discussion in that reformat-nixpkgs PR?
<ashkitten>
i'd like to see us move to gitlab at some point
<qyliss>
I don't think "I don't like it" is a strong argument
<qyliss>
So I haven't made it
<qyliss>
And I'll adapt
<MichaelRaskin>
LibreOffice argument list should be horrible enough to maybe attract more supporters
<qyliss>
ashkitten: I don't think that would be much better
<gchristensen>
now pijul ...
<qyliss>
You have the same issue with everybody basically forced to use the same software
<ashkitten>
i don't think it would be a significantly improved experience, no
<MichaelRaskin>
Well, we would get a chance at an actual CI for ofborg with Gitlab!
<joepie91>
qyliss: I mean, being realistic, "I like X" is generally how styleguide decisions are made :P
<joepie91>
(this is also precisely why I have a problem with them on principle)
<qyliss>
if gitlab were just one of multiple paths for code to end up in git, that would be different
<andi->
+1
* gchristensen
'd love for pijul to be viable someday
<samueldr>
this all points again to the huge deficiency that is the lossy encoding of code as text
<qyliss>
although then everybody would still need to use gitlab to comment on things and stuff
<gchristensen>
treating code as an AST carries less information, doesn't it?
<samueldr>
sadly I still don't have solutions to that problem :(
<ashkitten>
some mozilla teams mirror their repos to github and review patches on all fronts, but with us not having enough reviewers already i'd hesitate to add more surface area to cover...
<samueldr>
gchristensen: not necessarily
<joepie91>
honestly I don't really understand why github doesn't just take whatever VS Code does for Git diffs, and use it on github
<samueldr>
gchristensen: what is lost?
<gchristensen>
samueldr: the way I laid it out
<joepie91>
because the VS Code diff is entirely unimpressed by whitespace or line separation changes
<samueldr>
gchristensen: comments? make them part of the representation!
<cole-h>
Oh cool, sway is segfaulting due to a corrupted double-linked list :)
<gchristensen>
cole-h: good thing they didn't want for it to crash!
<samueldr>
the way it's laid out is null and void, as the style guide reformats it, gchristensen!
<gchristensen>
samueldr: well exactly though, it has lost the information about how I chose to format it :P
<samueldr>
but that's not how I choose to format code
<joepie91>
gchristensen: but so does a styleguide / formatter
<MichaelRaskin>
Styleguide loses less information, as it allows for more variety in empty lines
<ashkitten>
gchristensen: i have a formatter i think you'll like. it's installed on every unix system ever - `cat`
<MichaelRaskin>
And clearly, there is information in code, then there are empty lines, and the rest is damn lies
<ottidmes>
samueldr: I would like to see that as well. I sometimes wish for the ($) operator of Haskell in Nix, but I am also it does not have it, cause now I simply do not have to choose between using $ or parentheses, sometimes no choice is a good thing, helps you focus on other things
<drakonis>
this is amusing.
<ashkitten>
hmm, i wonder what it does for...
<ashkitten>
<3 samueldr++
<MichaelRaskin>
samueldr: come on, you didn't even try Ctrl-]ZZ
<ashkitten>
nothing!
<ashkitten>
nice
<ashkitten>
MichaelRaskin: telnet and emacs?
<MichaelRaskin>
<3 samueldr ++
<{^_^}>
samueldr's karma got increased to 202
<ottidmes>
lol, that is how I felt when I was forced into vim when I started out with Linux
<MichaelRaskin>
ashkitten: whitespace matters!
<MichaelRaskin>
ashkitten: No, plain vim.
<ashkitten>
i see
<MichaelRaskin>
<3 samueldr ++
<{^_^}>
samueldr's karma got increased to 203
<MichaelRaskin>
Ah no double-increase
<ashkitten>
yeah it just ignores the ++ if it's separated from the previous word
<ashkitten>
i think with <3 username++ it just looks for a user called username++
<MichaelRaskin>
samueldr ++
<MichaelRaskin>
Indeed ignores
<ashkitten>
it's just as well, ++ is an operator in some languages! like nix!
<MichaelRaskin>
Yes, with <3 it does take the first space-separated word
<ashkitten>
er, aside from the increment operator nonsense in c
<ashkitten>
i really hate the pre/postincrement operator, it's ridiculous
<gchristensen>
really?
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<ashkitten>
yeah, i think it's hard to read what's actually meant to happen
<ashkitten>
it's unintuitive for new users
<MichaelRaskin>
i += i++ + ++i
<cole-h>
Found the issue. Something with my recent home-manager update x) Now to find out why it happens...
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<gchristensen>
ah, so lke foo += 1 is more clear
<ashkitten>
MichaelRaskin--
<ashkitten>
gchristensen: yeah
<gchristensen>
fair enough
<MichaelRaskin>
Right, sorry
<gchristensen>
and bash's ultimately clear option: i=$((i + 1))
<MichaelRaskin>
++i++ += ++i++ + ++i++
<MichaelRaskin>
I _hope_ that is not compilable, though
<ashkitten>
plus with `foo += 1` there's no return value for that expression (in most languages) so there's no risk of misusing it in weird unreadable ways
<ottidmes>
gchristensen: why not just (( i += 1 ))
<danderson>
MichaelRaskin: you're in luck: "error: lvalue required as increment operand"
<danderson>
it doesn't like any of your postfix ++es, but I can't understand its explanation
<danderson>
other than "you're clearly messing with me, I'll do the same"
<ashkitten>
lvalue required i think means it wants a variable for that operator and not an expression
<MichaelRaskin>
Wait, this is actually a _readable_ diagnostic message
<gchristensen>
"An lvalue is a glvalue that is not an xvalue."
<andi->
obvious.
<gchristensen>
[...what's the problem?]
<andi->
let me guess a glvalue is a lvalue that is not an xvalue?
<MichaelRaskin>
gchristensen: you are cheating, that's C++ and it matters here
<gchristensen>
:)
<MichaelRaskin>
I mean, the explanation of xvalue speaks of «end of its lifetime» and «reference type»
<gchristensen>
I didn't know what an lvalue was and clicked the second result :x
<MichaelRaskin>
And you didn't even add C to the search terms?
<gchristensen>
fair, I didn't :)
<MichaelRaskin>
For all the drawbacks of C, C++ reusing its terminology and creating a scary monster… of everything is not C's fault.
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<ashkitten>
i wish structured data had been chosen as the shell model instead of strings
<joepie91>
++
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<ashkitten>
you dropped an ashkitten, there
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<drakonis>
its what happens when you get era constraints combined with sysadmins who liked it that way
<MichaelRaskin>
ashkitten: wasn't plausible in the context of the choice, and then compatibility happenned
<joepie91>
lol
<joepie91>
ashkitten ++
<joepie91>
fair's fair
<ashkitten>
MichaelRaskin: yeah, it's too late to turn back now, unfortunately...
<joepie91>
am I lagging very badly or is the karma failing
<drakonis>
computers were so slow that it was impossible to do that then
<drakonis>
joepie91: you did it wrong
<MichaelRaskin>
It's complicated
<joepie91>
what
<drakonis>
its ashkitten++ not ashkitten ++
<{^_^}>
ashkitten's karma got increased to 5
<drakonis>
SEE!
<joepie91>
but
<joepie91>
but
<joepie91>
earlier someone did it with a space and it worked!
<drakonis>
that's because it had <3
<ottidmes>
but that was with the power of love
<MichaelRaskin>
It's more that Unix was making all the long-term bad decisions to make portability cheaper
<ashkitten>
my gf thinks parsing strings with sed is better than structured data and i will never understand why, but i still love her
<drakonis>
praise the power of love
<joepie91>
also, re: "computers were so slow that it was impossible to do that then" -- this is why forwards-compatible design is important, and performance is no excuse for that
<joepie91>
it would not have been slower to prefix all strings with a fixed signal byte saying "this is string output" that could in the future be extended to say "this is structured output"
<joepie91>
to throw out the most obvious idea I can think of in 10 seconds
<drakonis>
they didnt think of that then
<ashkitten>
they didn't think of a lot of things then, to be fair
<drakonis>
they were wrestling against hardware limitations of the time
<drakonis>
plus they didnt think 60 years ahead of its time
<joepie91>
then let's not say that this was a performance problem :P
<MichaelRaskin>
Well, these definitely were not hardware limitations _of its time_
<joepie91>
it was a foresight problem
<joepie91>
(which is possibly an excusable foresight problem, but it was a foresight problem)
<ashkitten>
at this point only a new operating system with a novel userland could fix the mistakes of the past
<ashkitten>
or we fork another bsd
<drakonis>
and those are dime a dozen
<drakonis>
lol bsds
<drakonis>
they're not what one could call novel
<drakonis>
or super interested in novel stuff
<MichaelRaskin>
I mean, Multics was a much more solid design
<drakonis>
see where that got them!
<ashkitten>
drakonis: i wouldn't exactly say that
<MichaelRaskin>
It was optimising for cost of development
<drakonis>
ashkitten: its a sweeping statement, yes.
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<drakonis>
openbsd tries things every often
<MichaelRaskin>
Also, for the cost of porting to the lowest-end things
<drakonis>
dragonflybsd is novel
<drakonis>
netbsd is... well... netbsd.
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<drakonis>
it does neat things every often but its just there now
<ashkitten>
the people i know who work on netbsd are cool
<drakonis>
and freebsd tries to compete with linux by doing nothing crazy
<drakonis>
the ol' reliable or something
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<drakonis>
netbsd is cool but it doesnt really draw much attention now
<ashkitten>
it does run on everything, though
<ashkitten>
which means the maintainers all hate firefox