infinisil has quit [Quit: Configuring ZNC, sorry for the joins/quits!]
infinisil has joined #nixos-chat
dtz has joined #nixos-chat
<worldofpeace>
infinisil: what's better is a CoC that's enforced in IRC by moderators. so then there's clear lines into what's a violating behavior and the consequences
<gchristensen>
worldofpeace++
<{^_^}>
worldofpeace's karma got increased to 38
<infinisil>
We should make that a plural though, currently we really only have one moderator :)
<gchristensen>
not *exactly*: /msg chanserv access #nixos list
<infinisil>
Technically yeah, but practically only you are here often enough to actually encounter something needing an action
<worldofpeace>
perhaps a committee should be responsible for actual enforcement. and moderators are just acting on their behalf
<infinisil>
I haven't seen anybody other than you take any action
<worldofpeace>
I'd say for now the aforementioned person should only be prevented from communication on these channels for a short period of time.
<gchristensen>
they were already unbanned in #nixos
<drakonis1>
worldofpeace: +q does that
<worldofpeace>
oh the RFC ideas if only there was the time :D
<infinisil>
worldofpeace: Tbh, in this case an RFC seems over the top
<worldofpeace>
infinisil: CoC for all of NixOS
<infinisil>
Some simple rules and some more mods is all that's needed imo
<infinisil>
worldofpeace: That wouldn't be a bad thing yeah, but I'm not sure if it's worth spending time on this now, since the only bad thing we get is some occasional trolls in #nixos
<infinisil>
Like, twice a month or so
<worldofpeace>
infinisil: it's pretty much a requisite for long term community health
<infinisil>
What would happen if we went without one for another 10 years? The community seems pretty healthy as of now
<infinisil>
I don't have much experience with CoC's, so I'm curious
<worldofpeace>
infinisil: funky situations can happen, no avoiding it, without a guiding post with a focus on healthy communication can give us divisive quarrels that don't get resolved
<gchristensen>
and the bigger the project & community gets, the more likely a funky situation occurs
<infinisil>
Hm, got an example of another community?
<worldofpeace>
infinisil: the heirarchy of the community could become skewed favoring a certain few, and they're responsible for enforcement for these types of things because it has to happen
<drakonis1>
it outs a specific crowd
<worldofpeace>
I bet any big 8 open source projects on github have CoC. Maybe not all of them could be enforcing it and maintaining it though
<infinisil>
Hm I see, that makes sense, I guess a CoC would be a manifestation of the general populations idea of whether something is right to do/say
<infinisil>
So multiple big people at the top shouldn't all behave differently
<infinisil>
and enforce different rules
<worldofpeace>
I'd say replace what's right vs what's actually benficial to the communities goal
<infinisil>
That about right?
<gchristensen>
yeah, overall there is a pretty well understood culture of the community. the hard next step is writing it down (or agreeing an existing one matches those values & culture)
<drakonis1>
you should take this step with care tho
<gchristensen>
+100
<drakonis1>
because there's crowds that will come at the first whiff of a CoC
<infinisil>
drakonis1: Why that?
<drakonis1>
because of the things a CoC is associated with
<infinisil>
What things is it associated with?
<worldofpeace>
I'd say any initial CoC purposal should have been created in a collaborative matter
<worldofpeace>
meaning not just one persons initial ideas
<drakonis1>
drama is what it is associated with
<worldofpeace>
I've seen people add one and it's just a document, just sits there. The CoC should be integrated into the culture in order to function
<drakonis1>
the right way to go with this, is to get something we all agree on
<infinisil>
Brb, pinging all 900 people in #nixos
<drakonis1>
i've had my share of watching the drama that usually ensues
<drakonis1>
because its associated with political drama
<infinisil>
Okay but for a start, a CoC should contain the pretty obvious things, right?
<infinisil>
Like no racism, no unnecessary swearing
<worldofpeace>
which is typically polarized and divisive
<drakonis1>
quite
<infinisil>
But these things have to be in there no?
<drakonis1>
the thing is
<drakonis1>
the drama driven folks will find a way to use that as an excuse to breed drama
<drakonis1>
they're surprisingly predictable
<worldofpeace>
I'm not sure I agree with it being a "dramatic" affair, you just have to deal with polarized perspectives
<worldofpeace>
which happens to be an uncommon skill
<drakonis1>
certainly would.
<worldofpeace>
infinisil: yes there's usually a baseline of simple expectations with how people should conduct with each other.
<infinisil>
I can see the value of a CoC now
<infinisil>
Would be interested in helping out with efforts towards one
<worldofpeace>
So think of it like a Standards subsection infinisil
<drakonis1>
treat everyone the respect you would like to receive
<worldofpeace>
infinisil: I think we're almost in the conditions for one to be created, it just needs a leading energy
<drakonis1>
it should be the baseline rule
<infinisil>
Would it be a good idea to look at a bunch of other communities CoC's to see what kind of things they include to form our own?
<worldofpeace>
It can be very surprising how one person's personal choices on how they conduct themselves can have an effect on every person they encounter. and what choices they make also
<infinisil>
Not copy-paste obviously, but taking inspiration
<gchristensen>
a lot of them are based on templates
<drakonis1>
ah yes, that's one of the sources of drama
<worldofpeace>
infinisil: I think it's interesting to see how other communities handle CoC violations
<worldofpeace>
gchristensen: lol, literally
<gchristensen>
Citizen Code of Conduct, Contributor Covenant Code of Conduct
<infinisil>
worldofpeace: Ah yeah, I'd love to see an example of that
<drakonis1>
the covenant has caused a bit of issues
<drakonis1>
see the linux coc drama
<drakonis1>
some folks managed to convince people that they could pull their gpled contributions during that period
<drakonis1>
it was weird
<gchristensen>
that was weird
<worldofpeace>
infinisil: right, like the actual violation and situation. What's even more interesting is when one community adopts a CoC how others are influenced by their choice
<{^_^}>
#68020 (by grahamc, 2 weeks ago, open): Vacation PR: multi-paged, styled, searchable docs with wrapper tooling and epubs for NixOS and Nixpkgs
<samueldr>
✔️
<gchristensen>
(_eh, it restarted the build just then for Reasons, but it did pass!)
<gchristensen>
bed time. maybe it can still merge in the window :o
<gchristensen>
good night!
<infinisil>
Nighty night
<samueldr>
'night!
<drakonis1>
jolly good
<drakonis1>
so, who's ready for flakes on nixpkgs...
buckley310 has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
buckley310 has joined #nixos-chat
drakonis1 has quit [Quit: WeeChat 2.4]
drakonis has joined #nixos-chat
drakonis1 has joined #nixos-chat
drakonis_ has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds]
drakonis has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds]
endformationage has quit [Quit: WeeChat 2.5]
<eyJhb>
NixOS, the operating system where you can get up in the middle of the night, half asleep and perform a major system upgrade, without worrying too much :p
<eyJhb>
Granted, clean install, with a minimal openVPN setup, but still. WIthout a hitch
Myhlamaeus has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds]
ivan has quit [Quit: lp0 on fire]
ivan has joined #nixos-chat
<eyJhb>
srhb: 11 days left ;)
<srhb>
eyJhb: yaaaaaas
Jackneill has joined #nixos-chat
Jackneill has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
Jackneill has joined #nixos-chat
Jackneill has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
Jackneill has joined #nixos-chat
<manveru>
nearlyfreespeech is still my favorite for stuff like this...
<eyJhb>
srhb: your workplace story is starting to become a selling point for NixOS :p
<eyJhb>
manveru: how much do you pay for your site?
<manveru>
eyJhb: that one is about $14 a year
<manveru>
in total i pay about $200 for domains a year
<manveru>
probably more, since i also have some at gandi
nocent has joined #nixos-chat
<eyJhb>
manveru: seems nice! I pay 320 EUR a year for my hosting atm. :p
<eyJhb>
But the concept is awesome
<manveru>
144 for hosting with vpsfree :)
<eyJhb>
US?
<manveru>
they're in czech
<manveru>
so you gonna have awful ping to US
qyliss has joined #nixos-chat
<clever>
manveru: i got a t-shirt from them last time i was at nixcon, because i accidentally created a core piece of software for their infra, lol
<manveru>
:D
<clever>
not-os is part of their infra!
<manveru>
jup
<manveru>
i'm still waiting for them to upgrade to 19.03... or 19.09 :P
<clever>
oh, and isnt the new nixcon also in czech?
<manveru>
yes
<clever>
i need to grab the tickets soon
<manveru>
they suggested the location
<clever>
ahh
<clever>
everybody gets a turn at being able to skip flights :D
* etu
is super hyped for nixcon
* clever
heads off to bed
<manveru>
i guess it was like "with the money we spent on london we could instead host the whole thing ourselves" :P
<clever>
heh
<manveru>
gn8
qyliss has quit [Quit: bye]
qyliss has joined #nixos-chat
qyliss has quit [Quit: bye]
qyliss has joined #nixos-chat
<eyJhb>
Lectures sometimes have some golden quotes
<eyJhb>
"X and Y Have probably warned you about using global variables, if not, they should get fired", X was fired 1 month ago
<Taneb>
eyJhb: did X warn you about global variables?
<eyJhb>
He did not! But I do think he warned another group about it. But they somehow managed to create some Arduino code, where must functions did not take any parameters, and it only worked on global variables
<eyJhb>
So they should have been throw out tbh! :p
drakonis has joined #nixos-chat
drakonis1 has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds]
<gchristensen>
:| heat turned on this morning
drakonis has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
drakonis has joined #nixos-chat
drakonis_ has joined #nixos-chat
drakonis has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds]
<gchristensen>
anyone have a favorite extension for running custom JS on a webpage when it loads?
<eyJhb>
Had one some time ago gchristensen , not anymore... :(
<eyJhb>
But I mostly do it for RE, so I just use Charles Proxy to inject stuff :p
drakonis has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
drakonis1 has joined #nixos-chat
drakonis_ has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds]
drakonis has joined #nixos-chat
drakonis_ has joined #nixos-chat
drakonis1 has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds]
drakonis has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds]
<eyJhb>
Thanks joepie91 !
<eyJhb>
ALso, very swedish name :D
qyliss has quit [Quit: bye]
qyliss has joined #nixos-chat
qyliss has quit [Client Quit]
<joepie91>
eyJhb: huh?
<joepie91>
eyJhb: oh, you mean 'Sven'? :P
<steveeJ>
gchristensen: I've pinged you via DM on twitter and IRC as I was curious about a tweet of yours of a while ago. would be awesome to make a call happen
<gchristensen>
steveeJ: hey, thanks, I'll be going through DMs shortly. I have a long to-do list after a long vacation, and am still working through it
qyliss has joined #nixos-chat
qyliss has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
<eyJhb>
joepie91: yeah :p It was a close call for me, my dad wanted to name me Sven
<eyJhb>
But my name is quite swedish as well, so :p
<joepie91>
eyJhb: ah, it's a pretty popular name here in NL :P
<eyJhb>
Ah
<eyJhb>
I forgot!
<joepie91>
like, to Dutch people it's a fairly Dutch name, to everybody else it's a Swedish name :D
<joepie91>
it's weird
<eyJhb>
WHy did I get the idea you were Swedish? You have mentioned NL quite a lot
<eyJhb>
The ranking goes Swedish > Dutch :p
<joepie91>
lol
<joepie91>
eyJhb: I'll do you one better, people have assumed me to be Swedish by my English accent in the past
<joepie91>
eyJhb: and I could pass as Swedish looks-wise as well, probably
<eyJhb>
joepie91: We could blend into the general Swedish population then, if anything goes wrong ;) :p
<joepie91>
lol
<eyJhb>
It's always good with a backup plan?
qyliss has joined #nixos-chat
qyliss has quit [Quit: bye]
qyliss has joined #nixos-chat
qyliss has quit [Quit: bye]
qyliss has joined #nixos-chat
qyliss has quit [Quit: bye]
endformationage has joined #nixos-chat
qyliss has joined #nixos-chat
<eyJhb>
ANybody have experience with https://git-secret.io/ ? Or generally, how do you store your secrets.nix ?
* infinisil
uses a private repo on his server
<gchristensen>
I've found storing secrets in a repo with not secret stuff is too scrary
<eyJhb>
infinisil: do you trust your own server?!
<eyJhb>
But makes sense infinisil :D
<eyJhb>
That is also what I am thinking
<gchristensen>
too hard to be 100% certain the data is encrypted, especially if automatic smudge filters are applied
<eyJhb>
Considering putting it into my pass
<infinisil>
Yeah it's not that good
<eyJhb>
E.g. I keep my ssh config in there as well
<eyJhb>
Well, it is better than many other things I guess :p
<infinisil>
I have secret nix files though, would need some smooth integration to be able to use those in a nixos-rebuild
<eyJhb>
Wait
<eyJhb>
Do you have all you secrets directly IN your *.nix files infinisil ?
<infinisil>
Yeah?
<eyJhb>
Oh, I read it as, you have a secrets.nix, which you stored on a private git
<eyJhb>
Thinking of stealing how etu manages his configs, seeing as NIXOPS seems like, too much for my three servers, where two are external VPS
<steveeJ>
gchristensen: ack, I'm not in a hurry. I just wanted to find out whether to be sad or more patient about those direct messages not being responded to ;-)
<eyJhb>
infinisil: you have soooo many modules
<infinisil>
Almost a bit too many!
<infinisil>
But they just keep getting more
<infinisil>
And I don't remove old ones heh
<infinisil>
I should certainly refactor a bunch though
qyliss has quit [Quit: bye]
<eyJhb>
I know that feeling, but hey, they look nice! I am considering writing some modules to make my own life easier
<eyJhb>
Hoping I can convert AAU to NixOS while doing that :p
<eyJhb>
Also, is stalking configs just as bad as like going Facebook stalking etc.? :p
qyliss has joined #nixos-chat
qyliss has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
<pie_>
random thought i just had "nix is good for people who dont have intimate linux knowledge with every subsytem when it succeeds as an abstraction, there are way too many cases where nix does not yet succeed as an abstraction"
<pie_>
joepie91?
<pie_>
(i mean its a pretty trivial observation but eh...)
<pie_>
which is to say i guess there should be more stuff on conscious thought about engineering abstractions into nixpkgs, how can linux systems components even be abstracted, etc
bew has joined #nixos-chat
<pie_>
*in a linux independent manner
qyliss has joined #nixos-chat
<pie_>
alternatively: ETOOMUCHWORK anyway :P
<pie_>
wonder if theres any things that could be done to make things go even faster but eh
<infinisil>
eyJhb: Nope not paying for cachix
<infinisil>
I don't need more than 10GB
<joepie91>
pie_: I agree, in that the Nix model is the best possibility we have available right now for defining non-leaky abstractions, but we're not actually there yet :P
<pie_>
joepie91: oh uh, i was not clear at all, i meant the implementations of stuff in nixpkgs tho
<pie_>
maybe the reason i dont see stuff though is the people that know how to do it arent vocal and arent asking questions, because they know how to do it xd
<pie_>
meh...too sidetracked on university to do nix stuff these days anyway
jtojnar_ has joined #nixos-chat
jtojnar has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds]
jtojnar_ is now known as jtojnar
drakonis has joined #nixos-chat
drakonis_ has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds]
<ashkitten>
what's our policy on submitting (font, in this case) packages? like, do we want all the packages or should some be kept to ourselves?
<gchristensen>
I don't upstream package definitions which are really complicated or hacky, or for trivial packages like scripts, or for extremely niche stuff
<gchristensen>
I think it is good to maintain a local package set in an overlay
<joepie91>
pie_: yeah, that's what I meant too
<joepie91>
(for the most part)
<gchristensen>
I also don't upload packages for thinsg I'm just trying. only thinsg which are actually important to me which I will keep an eye on
<samueldr>
yeah, you have to intend to maintain it
<ashkitten>
okay
<gchristensen>
I am probably slower than most to upstream things :)
<samueldr>
you're always hoarding the good stuff -_-
<pie_>
given how much effort it takes to to find all the dependencies for everything i find that a bit at odds withnotupstreaming things
<ashkitten>
why do overlays give both self and super, btw?
<samueldr>
something about infinite recursion and a way out of it
<pie_>
id have figured composability
<ashkitten>
which are you meant to use?
<gchristensen>
self for everything except for overrides
<pie_>
using self means you get stuff from other overlays too
<ashkitten>
okay
<samueldr>
tell me if it's wrong, but "self is the final package set"
<gchristensen>
yeah
<pie_>
yo uuse super t avoid infinite recursion
<pie_>
so yeah i guess :D
<gchristensen>
super is the package set from before your overlay is applied
<samueldr>
so self.override[...] would need the current overlay to be applied to actively override
<pie_>
gchristensen: that way to summarize it makes more sense than the stuff ive read.
<pie_>
re <gchristensen> self for everything except for overrides
<pie_>
i just realized i completely forgot about ofice hours the past few weeks...
<gchristensen>
haven't had them! I was on vacation :)
<gchristensen>
speaking of which:
<gchristensen>
I'm seeking a topic or guest for tomorrow. anyone have suggestions?
buckley310 has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
buckley310 has joined #nixos-chat
drakonis_ has joined #nixos-chat
drakonis has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds]
emily has quit [Quit: Updating details, brb]
emily has joined #nixos-chat
emily has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
emily has joined #nixos-chat
emily has quit [Client Quit]
emily has joined #nixos-chat
emily has quit []
emily has joined #nixos-chat
LnL has joined #nixos-chat
emily has quit [Client Quit]
emily has joined #nixos-chat
emily has quit [Client Quit]
emily has joined #nixos-chat
emily has quit [Client Quit]
emily has joined #nixos-chat
<infinisil>
gchristensen: Eelco couldn't talk about flakes last time, maybe this time?
<gchristensen>
indeed, that is what makes it so last minute: he had to cancel
emily has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
emily has joined #nixos-chat
emily has quit [Client Quit]
emily has joined #nixos-chat
emily has quit [Client Quit]
emily has joined #nixos-chat
emily has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
emily has joined #nixos-chat
drakonis_ has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
<eyJhb>
Is NixCon tomorrow or what?
<eyJhb>
gchristensen: guest for what?
<gchristensen>
office hours
<eyJhb>
AH
<eyJhb>
I would say, do me! BUt I would die, and not interesting in Nix conversation ;)
<gchristensen>
no dieing during office hours
<eyJhb>
Then you shouldn't hold office hours at night! :p
* joepie91
wonders whether he'll be let on the bus with a hand truck
<joepie91>
(need to get something from IKEA tomorrow)
<samueldr>
here you wouldn't be :)
<joepie91>
I mean, I've been on a bus carrying random pieces of wood from the hardware store before
<joepie91>
it's not inconceivable
<joepie91>
lol
drakonis_ has joined #nixos-chat
<joepie91>
and full shopping bags
<joepie91>
and in the UK, a shopping trolley with a speaker system once, though that was with a few other people
<joepie91>
but I dunno if I want to risk it :P
<samueldr>
yeah, was going to say "but it's likely possible, even though there are rules"
<samueldr>
well, possible, not likely for hand truck I think
<samueldr>
and you're not "here"
<samueldr>
:)
<joepie91>
lol
<qyliss>
I was recently on a bus after an IKEA trip with two other people, between us carrying a plant, a large painting, a rug, and an extremely heavy bag.