gchristensen changed the topic of #nixos-chat to: NixOS but much less topical || https://logs.nix.samueldr.com/nixos-chat
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<worldofpeace> infinisil: what's better is a CoC that's enforced in IRC by moderators. so then there's clear lines into what's a violating behavior and the consequences
<gchristensen> worldofpeace++
<{^_^}> worldofpeace's karma got increased to 38
<infinisil> We should make that a plural though, currently we really only have one moderator :)
<gchristensen> not *exactly*: /msg chanserv access #nixos list
<infinisil> Technically yeah, but practically only you are here often enough to actually encounter something needing an action
<worldofpeace> perhaps a committee should be responsible for actual enforcement. and moderators are just acting on their behalf
<infinisil> I haven't seen anybody other than you take any action
<worldofpeace> I'd say for now the aforementioned person should only be prevented from communication on these channels for a short period of time.
<gchristensen> they were already unbanned in #nixos
<drakonis1> worldofpeace: +q does that
<worldofpeace> oh the RFC ideas if only there was the time :D
<infinisil> worldofpeace: Tbh, in this case an RFC seems over the top
<worldofpeace> infinisil: CoC for all of NixOS
<infinisil> Some simple rules and some more mods is all that's needed imo
<infinisil> worldofpeace: That wouldn't be a bad thing yeah, but I'm not sure if it's worth spending time on this now, since the only bad thing we get is some occasional trolls in #nixos
<infinisil> Like, twice a month or so
<worldofpeace> infinisil: it's pretty much a requisite for long term community health
<infinisil> What would happen if we went without one for another 10 years? The community seems pretty healthy as of now
<infinisil> I don't have much experience with CoC's, so I'm curious
<worldofpeace> infinisil: funky situations can happen, no avoiding it, without a guiding post with a focus on healthy communication can give us divisive quarrels that don't get resolved
<gchristensen> and the bigger the project & community gets, the more likely a funky situation occurs
<infinisil> Hm, got an example of another community?
<worldofpeace> infinisil: the heirarchy of the community could become skewed favoring a certain few, and they're responsible for enforcement for these types of things because it has to happen
<drakonis1> it outs a specific crowd
<worldofpeace> I bet any big 8 open source projects on github have CoC. Maybe not all of them could be enforcing it and maintaining it though
<infinisil> Hm I see, that makes sense, I guess a CoC would be a manifestation of the general populations idea of whether something is right to do/say
<infinisil> So multiple big people at the top shouldn't all behave differently
<infinisil> and enforce different rules
<worldofpeace> I'd say replace what's right vs what's actually benficial to the communities goal
<infinisil> That about right?
<gchristensen> yeah, overall there is a pretty well understood culture of the community. the hard next step is writing it down (or agreeing an existing one matches those values & culture)
<drakonis1> you should take this step with care tho
<gchristensen> +100
<drakonis1> because there's crowds that will come at the first whiff of a CoC
<infinisil> drakonis1: Why that?
<drakonis1> because of the things a CoC is associated with
<infinisil> What things is it associated with?
<worldofpeace> I'd say any initial CoC purposal should have been created in a collaborative matter
<worldofpeace> meaning not just one persons initial ideas
<drakonis1> drama is what it is associated with
<worldofpeace> I've seen people add one and it's just a document, just sits there. The CoC should be integrated into the culture in order to function
<drakonis1> the right way to go with this, is to get something we all agree on
<infinisil> Brb, pinging all 900 people in #nixos
<drakonis1> i've had my share of watching the drama that usually ensues
<drakonis1> because its associated with political drama
<infinisil> Okay but for a start, a CoC should contain the pretty obvious things, right?
<infinisil> Like no racism, no unnecessary swearing
<worldofpeace> which is typically polarized and divisive
<drakonis1> quite
<infinisil> But these things have to be in there no?
<drakonis1> the thing is
<drakonis1> the drama driven folks will find a way to use that as an excuse to breed drama
<drakonis1> they're surprisingly predictable
<worldofpeace> I'm not sure I agree with it being a "dramatic" affair, you just have to deal with polarized perspectives
<worldofpeace> which happens to be an uncommon skill
<drakonis1> certainly would.
<worldofpeace> infinisil: yes there's usually a baseline of simple expectations with how people should conduct with each other.
<infinisil> I can see the value of a CoC now
<infinisil> Would be interested in helping out with efforts towards one
<worldofpeace> So think of it like a Standards subsection infinisil
<drakonis1> treat everyone the respect you would like to receive
<worldofpeace> infinisil: I think we're almost in the conditions for one to be created, it just needs a leading energy
<drakonis1> it should be the baseline rule
<infinisil> Would it be a good idea to look at a bunch of other communities CoC's to see what kind of things they include to form our own?
<worldofpeace> It can be very surprising how one person's personal choices on how they conduct themselves can have an effect on every person they encounter. and what choices they make also
<infinisil> Not copy-paste obviously, but taking inspiration
<gchristensen> a lot of them are based on templates
<drakonis1> ah yes, that's one of the sources of drama
<worldofpeace> infinisil: I think it's interesting to see how other communities handle CoC violations
<worldofpeace> gchristensen: lol, literally
<gchristensen> Citizen Code of Conduct, Contributor Covenant Code of Conduct
<infinisil> worldofpeace: Ah yeah, I'd love to see an example of that
<drakonis1> the covenant has caused a bit of issues
<drakonis1> see the linux coc drama
<drakonis1> some folks managed to convince people that they could pull their gpled contributions during that period
<drakonis1> it was weird
<gchristensen> that was weird
<worldofpeace> infinisil: right, like the actual violation and situation. What's even more interesting is when one community adopts a CoC how others are influenced by their choice
<worldofpeace> yeah, I think that function is actual unhelpful
<gchristensen> yeah
<gchristensen> check-box compliance
<infinisil> Similarly with licenses
<worldofpeace> GitHub should present knowledge for the prospective community looking to adopt a CoC
<worldofpeace> so as to make an informed decision
<samueldr> githuuuuuub! the amount of times I see this after following a notification is maddening https://stuff.samueldr.com/screenshots/2019/09/20190918215743.png
<gchristensen> heh.... did you click through to the docs PR? :)
<samueldr> yes, but that happens often enough that I'm griping
<gchristensen> I think it is about to get a green checkmark by ofborg
<samueldr> while yes, force pushes will cause that... why direct me there if there's nothing to see? :/
<samueldr> direct me to the force push event!
<infinisil> samueldr: I think with pijul's model this wouldn't happen this easily
<samueldr> hm?
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<infinisil> pijul is based on a set of patches I believe, mostly unordered
<infinisil> And you wouldn't need to rewrite history to do a lot of things
<infinisil> Actually never mind, I have no idea what I'm talking about
<infinisil> My memory is so vague
<samueldr> I think it's orthogonal, a "forge" for pijul could likely also link to a broken thing if implemented the same way
<infinisil> Oh you know pijul better then me already then hehe, I gotta step up my game
<samueldr> I don't know pijul at all :)
<samueldr> I was going from your explanation
<samueldr> the events from github are not mapping 1:1 to git representations AFAIUI
<infinisil> Ah, I kind of thought you were talking about a `pijul forge` command
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<samueldr> hm no, forge in the sense of sourceforge, github, gitlab
<infinisil> Ahh I see
<samueldr> the name of the kind of software those are
<samueldr> or, "a" name
<infinisil> Maybe, vcs webservice?
<infinisil> I guess it's more than just the functionality of the vcs though
<gchristensen> oooooh buddy
<infinisil> Oh, forge is an actual term!
<samueldr> yes!
<samueldr> :)
<samueldr> I mean, I don't think I'm *old*, but I do remember the term being more used in the past
<gchristensen> back when sourceforge was dying it was a lot more popular to chat about forges, I think
<gchristensen> https://github.com/NixOS/nixpkgs/pull/68020 ooooooooooooh good golly, would you look at that green check
<{^_^}> #68020 (by grahamc, 2 weeks ago, open): Vacation PR: multi-paged, styled, searchable docs with wrapper tooling and epubs for NixOS and Nixpkgs
<samueldr> ✔️
<gchristensen> (_eh, it restarted the build just then for Reasons, but it did pass!)
<gchristensen> bed time. maybe it can still merge in the window :o
<gchristensen> good night!
<infinisil> Nighty night
<samueldr> 'night!
<drakonis1> jolly good
<drakonis1> so, who's ready for flakes on nixpkgs...
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<eyJhb> NixOS, the operating system where you can get up in the middle of the night, half asleep and perform a major system upgrade, without worrying too much :p
<eyJhb> Granted, clean install, with a minimal openVPN setup, but still. WIthout a hitch
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<eyJhb> srhb: 11 days left ;)
<srhb> eyJhb: yaaaaaas
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<manveru> nearlyfreespeech is still my favorite for stuff like this...
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<eyJhb> srhb: your workplace story is starting to become a selling point for NixOS :p
<eyJhb> manveru: how much do you pay for your site?
<manveru> eyJhb: that one is about $14 a year
<manveru> in total i pay about $200 for domains a year
<manveru> probably more, since i also have some at gandi
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<eyJhb> manveru: seems nice! I pay 320 EUR a year for my hosting atm. :p
<eyJhb> But the concept is awesome
<manveru> 144 for hosting with vpsfree :)
<eyJhb> US?
<manveru> they're in czech
<manveru> so you gonna have awful ping to US
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<clever> manveru: i got a t-shirt from them last time i was at nixcon, because i accidentally created a core piece of software for their infra, lol
<manveru> :D
<clever> not-os is part of their infra!
<manveru> jup
<manveru> i'm still waiting for them to upgrade to 19.03... or 19.09 :P
<clever> oh, and isnt the new nixcon also in czech?
<manveru> yes
<clever> i need to grab the tickets soon
<manveru> they suggested the location
<clever> ahh
<clever> everybody gets a turn at being able to skip flights :D
* etu is super hyped for nixcon
* clever heads off to bed
<manveru> i guess it was like "with the money we spent on london we could instead host the whole thing ourselves" :P
<clever> heh
<manveru> gn8
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<eyJhb> Lectures sometimes have some golden quotes
<eyJhb> "X and Y Have probably warned you about using global variables, if not, they should get fired", X was fired 1 month ago
<Taneb> eyJhb: did X warn you about global variables?
<eyJhb> He did not! But I do think he warned another group about it. But they somehow managed to create some Arduino code, where must functions did not take any parameters, and it only worked on global variables
<eyJhb> So they should have been throw out tbh! :p
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<gchristensen> :| heat turned on this morning
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<gchristensen> anyone have a favorite extension for running custom JS on a webpage when it loads?
<eyJhb> Had one some time ago gchristensen , not anymore... :(
<eyJhb> But I mostly do it for RE, so I just use Charles Proxy to inject stuff :p
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<gchristensen> hah
<eyJhb> Assuming you meant some browser extension, dunno what browser you use :)
<gchristensen> Ioh cool
<gchristensen> thanks
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<eyJhb> Np gchristensen , glad when I can help with something :p
<eyJhb> Ohh god, so much made up HR stuff, just so they can complain
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<eyJhb> joepie91: do you have configs for MORPH online?
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<eyJhb> Thanks joepie91 !
<eyJhb> ALso, very swedish name :D
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<joepie91> eyJhb: huh?
<joepie91> eyJhb: oh, you mean 'Sven'? :P
<steveeJ> gchristensen: I've pinged you via DM on twitter and IRC as I was curious about a tweet of yours of a while ago. would be awesome to make a call happen
<gchristensen> steveeJ: hey, thanks, I'll be going through DMs shortly. I have a long to-do list after a long vacation, and am still working through it
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<eyJhb> joepie91: yeah :p It was a close call for me, my dad wanted to name me Sven
<eyJhb> But my name is quite swedish as well, so :p
<joepie91> eyJhb: ah, it's a pretty popular name here in NL :P
<eyJhb> Ah
<eyJhb> I forgot!
<joepie91> like, to Dutch people it's a fairly Dutch name, to everybody else it's a Swedish name :D
<joepie91> it's weird
<eyJhb> WHy did I get the idea you were Swedish? You have mentioned NL quite a lot
<eyJhb> The ranking goes Swedish > Dutch :p
<joepie91> lol
<joepie91> eyJhb: I'll do you one better, people have assumed me to be Swedish by my English accent in the past
<joepie91> eyJhb: and I could pass as Swedish looks-wise as well, probably
<eyJhb> joepie91: We could blend into the general Swedish population then, if anything goes wrong ;) :p
<joepie91> lol
<eyJhb> It's always good with a backup plan?
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<eyJhb> ANybody have experience with https://git-secret.io/ ? Or generally, how do you store your secrets.nix ?
* infinisil uses a private repo on his server
<gchristensen> I've found storing secrets in a repo with not secret stuff is too scrary
<eyJhb> infinisil: do you trust your own server?!
<eyJhb> But makes sense infinisil :D
<eyJhb> That is also what I am thinking
<gchristensen> too hard to be 100% certain the data is encrypted, especially if automatic smudge filters are applied
<eyJhb> Considering putting it into my pass
<infinisil> Yeah it's not that good
<eyJhb> E.g. I keep my ssh config in there as well
<eyJhb> Well, it is better than many other things I guess :p
<infinisil> I have secret nix files though, would need some smooth integration to be able to use those in a nixos-rebuild
<eyJhb> Wait
<eyJhb> Do you have all you secrets directly IN your *.nix files infinisil ?
<infinisil> Yeah?
<eyJhb> Oh, I read it as, you have a secrets.nix, which you stored on a private git
<eyJhb> Thinking of stealing how etu manages his configs, seeing as NIXOPS seems like, too much for my three servers, where two are external VPS
<steveeJ> gchristensen: ack, I'm not in a hurry. I just wanted to find out whether to be sad or more patient about those direct messages not being responded to ;-)
<eyJhb> infinisil: you have soooo many modules
<infinisil> Almost a bit too many!
<infinisil> But they just keep getting more
<infinisil> And I don't remove old ones heh
<infinisil> I should certainly refactor a bunch though
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<eyJhb> I know that feeling, but hey, they look nice! I am considering writing some modules to make my own life easier
<eyJhb> Hoping I can convert AAU to NixOS while doing that :p
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<eyJhb> DO you pay for https://cachix.org/#pricing infinisil ?
<eyJhb> Also, is stalking configs just as bad as like going Facebook stalking etc.? :p
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<pie_> random thought i just had "nix is good for people who dont have intimate linux knowledge with every subsytem when it succeeds as an abstraction, there are way too many cases where nix does not yet succeed as an abstraction"
<pie_> joepie91?
<pie_> (i mean its a pretty trivial observation but eh...)
<pie_> which is to say i guess there should be more stuff on conscious thought about engineering abstractions into nixpkgs, how can linux systems components even be abstracted, etc
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<pie_> *in a linux independent manner
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<pie_> alternatively: ETOOMUCHWORK anyway :P
<pie_> wonder if theres any things that could be done to make things go even faster but eh
<infinisil> eyJhb: Nope not paying for cachix
<infinisil> I don't need more than 10GB
<joepie91> pie_: I agree, in that the Nix model is the best possibility we have available right now for defining non-leaky abstractions, but we're not actually there yet :P
<infinisil> eyJhb: (I only use cachix for https://github.com/infinisil/all-hies)
<pie_> joepie91: oh uh, i was not clear at all, i meant the implementations of stuff in nixpkgs tho
<pie_> maybe the reason i dont see stuff though is the people that know how to do it arent vocal and arent asking questions, because they know how to do it xd
<pie_> meh...too sidetracked on university to do nix stuff these days anyway
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<ashkitten> what's our policy on submitting (font, in this case) packages? like, do we want all the packages or should some be kept to ourselves?
<gchristensen> I don't upstream package definitions which are really complicated or hacky, or for trivial packages like scripts, or for extremely niche stuff
<gchristensen> I think it is good to maintain a local package set in an overlay
<joepie91> pie_: yeah, that's what I meant too
<joepie91> (for the most part)
<gchristensen> I also don't upload packages for thinsg I'm just trying. only thinsg which are actually important to me which I will keep an eye on
<samueldr> yeah, you have to intend to maintain it
<ashkitten> okay
<gchristensen> I am probably slower than most to upstream things :)
<samueldr> you're always hoarding the good stuff -_-
<samueldr> ;)
<pie_> given how much effort it takes to to find all the dependencies for everything i find that a bit at odds withnotupstreaming things
<ashkitten> why do overlays give both self and super, btw?
<samueldr> something about infinite recursion and a way out of it
<pie_> id have figured composability
<ashkitten> which are you meant to use?
<gchristensen> self for everything except for overrides
<pie_> using self means you get stuff from other overlays too
<ashkitten> okay
<samueldr> tell me if it's wrong, but "self is the final package set"
<gchristensen> yeah
<pie_> yo uuse super t avoid infinite recursion
<pie_> so yeah i guess :D
<gchristensen> super is the package set from before your overlay is applied
<samueldr> so self.override[...] would need the current overlay to be applied to actively override
<pie_> gchristensen: that way to summarize it makes more sense than the stuff ive read.
<pie_> re <gchristensen> self for everything except for overrides
<pie_> i just realized i completely forgot about ofice hours the past few weeks...
<gchristensen> haven't had them! I was on vacation :)
<gchristensen> speaking of which:
<gchristensen> I'm seeking a topic or guest for tomorrow. anyone have suggestions?
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<infinisil> gchristensen: Eelco couldn't talk about flakes last time, maybe this time?
<gchristensen> indeed, that is what makes it so last minute: he had to cancel
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<eyJhb> Is NixCon tomorrow or what?
<eyJhb> gchristensen: guest for what?
<gchristensen> office hours
<eyJhb> AH
<eyJhb> I would say, do me! BUt I would die, and not interesting in Nix conversation ;)
<gchristensen> no dieing during office hours
<eyJhb> Then you shouldn't hold office hours at night! :p
* joepie91 wonders whether he'll be let on the bus with a hand truck
<joepie91> (need to get something from IKEA tomorrow)
<samueldr> here you wouldn't be :)
<joepie91> I mean, I've been on a bus carrying random pieces of wood from the hardware store before
<joepie91> it's not inconceivable
<joepie91> lol
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<joepie91> and full shopping bags
<joepie91> and in the UK, a shopping trolley with a speaker system once, though that was with a few other people
<joepie91> but I dunno if I want to risk it :P
<samueldr> yeah, was going to say "but it's likely possible, even though there are rules"
<samueldr> well, possible, not likely for hand truck I think
<samueldr> and you're not "here"
<samueldr> :)
<joepie91> lol
<qyliss> I was recently on a bus after an IKEA trip with two other people, between us carrying a plant, a large painting, a rug, and an extremely heavy bag.
<joepie91> where is here?
<samueldr> Québec
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<joepie91> ah, right
<joepie91> qyliss: ha
<joepie91> nice
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<eyJhb> Take the risk and see
<joepie91> I may also just buy a bunch of other junk I still need, and pay to have it delivered lol
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<infinisil> What's the tool that turns a json file { x: { y: 10, z: foo } }` into lines `x.y 10\nx.z foo`?
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<joepie91> you could probably do that with jq?
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<infinisil> Hm yeah I'm looking into using jq now, but what I'm trying to do seems easier with the other format
<infinisil> My jq level might be too low for this task
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<infinisil> Ahh yes, thanks!
<gchristensen> that first smell of toasted dust from the radiators
<qyliss> mmm, winter
<gchristensen> the creak and pop of pipes expanding from the hot water
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<aleph-> Heh
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<cransom> i remember back when we had electric baseboard heaters. that was not a pleasant smell after a long hiatus.
<gchristensen> nope
<infinisil> Lol, I named a file "first one", but written together
<infinisil> So now when I wanted to open it again, and I forgot the name, I couldn't find it
<infinisil> Because I read "fir stone"
<infinisil> And didn't even think about this being it
<aanderse> nixops really needs a "silent" option where it doesn't spam every single derivation to the screen but just prints errors -_-
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<gchristensen> the iOS app Shortcuts can run programs over SSH out of the box :o
<gchristensen> that plus the wireguard app is interesting
<cransom> i was stunned when i saw that in shortcuts too when i first looked at it.
<qyliss> whoa
<qyliss> it's nice that apple didn't strip it down after acquiring it
<qyliss> I remember following the hackathon it was developed at on Twitter years ago
<eyJhb> Pretty sure I scared a couple of people, with me running full sprint home in the middle of the night in a hoodie at the outskirts of Aalborg
<eyJhb> On that note, goodnight people ;)
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