gchristensen changed the topic of #nixos-chat to: NixOS but much less topical || https://logs.nix.samueldr.com/nixos-chat
<infinisil> Interesting game concept: https://youtu.be/IOi7K3cJmoY?t=124
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<Church-> Hmm, do I do NixOS or Ubuntu on my new comp tomorrow...
<gchristensen> definitely an honest question, they asked, in the lion's den
<Church-> Heheheh
<Church-> Well I mean all I need is a git server, kodi/emby, file storage, etc.
<Church-> Small blog
<Church-> gchristensen: Honestly the only thing that might stop me is whether my usb wifi chip works or not.
<Church-> Since I don't have access to ethernet for it.
<gchristensen> aoh
<Church-> Yeah all depends on that being loaded in kernel before I start up.
<aanderse> cell phone + tether, download driver
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<Shados> gchristensen: Interesting. Did you have monitoring on the SMART stats on those drives -- were they actually approaching EOL on any?
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<gchristensen> SMART yes, EOL? I mean, sometimes, but we had a lot of them
<gchristensen> they would often go from 50% life to 0 in a minute
<Shados> Definitely something wrong going on with them then
<gchristensen> yeah. and, like I said, we worked them *hard*
<Shados> The client I was referring to really doesn't, which makes it odd that they always spec for write intensive drives...
<gchristensen> ah
<gchristensen> I'm pretty sure we didn't give them much time to do internal maintenance tasks, until it was too late
<Shados> Like, they're running an OLTP database, but it's an *in memory* database? They don't even snapshot to the SSDs, they snapshot to a SAN...
<gchristensen> O.o
<Shados> The SANs are also spec'd to be an order of magnitude larger and faster than they actually need
<Shados> There's a *lot* of overkill in this platform
<gchristensen> anyway g'night
<Shados> Night
<Church-> aanderse: Don't have usb tether
<ivan> Shados: oh, interesting, thanks
<ivan> I had a Samsung 960 Pro 2TB die recently after just 4 months
<Church-> Eesh
<Church-> ivan: Warranty?
<aanderse> Church-: :(
<Church-> aanderse: I mean I do, but I have a usb-C phone
<Church-> And my one usb-C to A cable is rather borked
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<ivan> Church-: yeah, was replaced
<Church-> Ah, guht.
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<pie_> nix kind of feels like "programmable data structures" to me#
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<pie_> alternatively, maybe thats just imperative programming, and im using a lot of overlays :p
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<{^_^}> CTFd/CTFd#964 (by ColdHeat, 3 weeks ago, open): Discord as a replacement for Slack?
<eyJhb> Did not know it took ALL github links, but I enjoy that
<adisbladis> eyJhb: I dont know how many foss-communities I've chosen not to participate in because they use proprietary chat :(
<adisbladis> Also with irc+matrix bridge you can easily get the exact same one-click web experience as discord&friends
<eyJhb> Ohhh, never mention bridges to them. Then they will just link you to Bitlbee and say you can use that :|
<adisbladis> eyJhb: Oh I meant to use irc as the canonical chat and for the people who wants the webby experience to use a bridge
<Church-> pie_: A bit
<Church-> Reminds me, need to go add nix to my salt states so it's installed.
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<ar> eyJhb: eh. even gitter would be a better alternative than slack or discord
<eyJhb> ar: Only because it somewhat has IRC impl, but I still dislike it very very much
<gchristensen> I
<gchristensen> I agree [edit]
<gchristensen> I agree with you, eyJh[edit]
<gchristensen> I agree with you, eyJhb. [edit]
<eyJhb> :( Giving me nightmares and stuff gchristensen
* andi- posted a long message <……>
<ar> <loading messages>
* gchristensen posted a long message < https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ >
* adisbladis OOM kills
<eyJhb> I continue to impress myself, by having "merge branch" conflicts, when I am the only one working on this repo.......
<infinisil> gchristensen: ...
<eyJhb> infinisil: can we kick him?
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<infinisil> xD
gchristensen was kicked from #nixos-chat by gchristensen [gchristensen]
<adisbladis> =(
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<infinisil> Haha
<eyJhb> Finally got everything to work in my plugin, and the problem was some middleware with CSRF tokens.. Damn that
<adisbladis> Oh no he's back
<eyJhb> I had the chance ! And I didn't take it! 2 secs where gchristensen wouldn't be able to no what I wrote
<drakonis1> gchristensen: discord and slack are a stuff of nightmares
<drakonis1> a thing that is truly deemed "nightmare fuel"
<gchristensen> oh I know ... I know ... I am in a Slack with a #general channel of nearly 9,000 members.
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<adisbladis> For something that sounds so chill it sure uses a ton of resources
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<tilpner> They're not the describing how their software acts, they're describing their development strategy
<tilpner> Who needs native applications, right?
<adisbladis> tilpner: That explains a lot
<adisbladis> tilpner: Or even an open protocol so I don't have to use their stupid software...
<tilpner> Pfft, so you can log everything yourself and provide infinite history for free?
<adisbladis> Slack was more evil than most with that... They lured you in with irc/xmpp gateways and then removed that
<infinisil> Damn that is evil
<eyJhb> Did they really?
<samueldr> hot take: no one *needs* native apps... but what we don't need is the abuse of a system made for linking (hyper) text documents into one :/
<adisbladis> eyJhb: They used to have both xmpp and irc support
<samueldr> and for as long as that platform is conflated into one, it won't be good for either :/
<eyJhb> That.. That would be a big f you to them, pretty much...
<eyJhb> But I guess stupid people up the rank like that it works in the web and stuff
<adisbladis> For sure I know of at least 2 companies that adopted slack because they were offering that support
<adisbladis> And then kept using it after they dropped it because they were esentially vendor locked-in
<adisbladis> I don't even mind their web interface if there is an escape hatch
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<drakonis1> gchristensen: jfc
<drakonis1> how does anyone manage anything at this scale?
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<eyJhb> drakonis1: fake it till you make it?
<gchristensen> I ignore as much as I can
<drakonis1> terrifying
<samueldr> just saw that going by; (maybe don't) https://make-linux-fast-again.com/
* tilpner sobs in mitigations=auto,nosmt
<tilpner> Where did all my "cores" go :(
<adisbladis> =(
<samueldr> (I would have like it much better if the site linked to upstream doc for each argument)
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<adisbladis> samueldr: I was just gonna say something similar.. It seems unsensible to just disable all mitigations
<gchristensen> I would like it better if it didn't reinforce the frame
<adisbladis> gchristensen: What do you mean?
<pie_> i think the solution to making linux fast again is stop using slack
<adisbladis> s/slack/electron/
<drakonis1> samueldr: lmao that should be called "make linux leaky again"
<Ralith> slack is actually especially bad
<Ralith> I am forced to run several electron apps, but it's always slack that ends up vacuuming up gigabytes of memory and pegging a core
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<averell> maybe that's not such a bad choice, and they should bundle that under desktop=true?
<tilpner> averell: Are you suggesting to disable all mitigations for a desktop?
<averell> i'm thinking of doing it, yeah
<averell> browsers come with their own on top afaik, and i run nothing untrusted?
<tilpner> Well, you're free to do that of course
<tilpner> But it sounded like you wanted that to be the default
<averell> no, but bundling all those in one flag would actually make sense if that is a sensible use-case for desktops
<tilpner> hardware.disableAllTheSafetiesThatProtectMyMachineFromCPUBugs = true;
<tilpner> Anything significantly shorter, and that seems like a bad idea
<averell> but it must also say that it's much faster :)
<samueldr> AFAICT mitigations=off should disable them all
<joepie91> blergh, bad parameter name
<samueldr> might be missing some from that other site, giving another glance
<samueldr> hm, noibrs completely missing
<averell> maybe that site is mixing versions. no_stf_barrier doesn't exist in that document
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<averell> would i be dumb to do that to a bunch of web-app servers? It's not like people can exfiltrate data through rest-api sidechannel or something, right?
<joepie91> I'd advise against disabling CPU vuln mitigations anywhere, tbh
<samueldr> know your attack surface, and in case of doubt, err towards the secure decision
<Ralith> averell: isn't it still dangerous on desktops due to stuff like javascript?
<joepie91> (yes, it is)
<samueldr> browsers did, too, bring with some mitigations at one point... but one would have to verify it still is the case and if it works, imo, before doing that...
<averell> maybe. i don't know what still works in modern browsers, but a lot of cache-timing-checks are supposed to be mitigated by fuzzing the js time clock
<samueldr> ... dnad that only goes for _browsers_
<samueldr> and*
<samueldr> not sure if other electron machines or even just webkit in other non-main browsers would follow suit
<Ralith> averell: afaik fuzzing is just a constant-factor difficulty increase, not a fix
<Ralith> but maybe I am missing something
<averell> no, sounds logical, but i don't know how much cpu time is required to get anything useful. i'm not sure if there's even been a real exploit ever.
<averell> but that's probably not a good argument :)
<joepie91> definitely not, considering that exploitation is essentially undetectable :)
<joepie91> (like is the case for most side-channels)
<averell> true, but i'm thinking a lot of white-hats might have tried by now
<joepie91> I mean, there have been PoCs, if that's what you mean
<Ralith> it's easy to imagine someone sneaking a script into an ad and accumulating data over a long period if necessary, for example
<averell> yes, and if i read about this SharedArrayBuffer thing, there might be a lot more ways to build your own clock.
<averell> welp, the interactive web was a mistake :/
<drakonis_> the web was a mistake
<drakonis_> give us xanadu
<joepie91> this doesn't have much to do with 'the [...] web', tbh
<joepie91> it applies to any kind of constrained environment with implicit application installation/initialization
<joepie91> the web just happens to be the biggest one
<averell> what does a normal user have otherwise, which runs random outside-supplied code?
<joepie91> and there are clear reasons to want to go for that model (namely: lower barrier to entry to your application, because of the lack of an explicit install step)
<joepie91> so web or no web, this situation would exist
<joepie91> averell: game mods are probably the next biggest example
<joepie91> but the point here isn't that the web isn't a major factor here, but rather that in its absence there would just be a different major factor, because the problem isn't the web, that's just a symptom; the problem is the desire to have installation-less applications
<joepie91> which means there's no trust step
<joepie91> that's a goal that's always going to remain, from the perspective of application developers, so the better investment is probably to make this a safe thing to do :)
<Ralith> game mods are generally very opt-in
<joepie91> there are quite a few games that will auto-download mods when you join a server
<joepie91> in multiplayer
<averell> but they could be curated too. ads are a bit diferent.
<Ralith> most of the stuff I have experience does not auto-download executable code, but I'm sure it exists
<joepie91> to grab some random open-source examples - if you've played OpenTTD, or Xonotic, then there's probably been some degree of auto-downloading mods :)
<Ralith> "mods" is a very broad umbrella
<averell> yes, and i just remembered excel exists.
<drakonis_> 999 nix issues.
<drakonis_> beep boop.
<gchristensen> nice
<gchristensen> I did just go on a "creation" spree
<drakonis_> it is always impressive
<gchristensen> oh?
<yorick> the earlier issues should be re-assigned
<gchristensen> oh?
<drakonis_> i had the impression that nix had far less open issues than nixpkgs
<yorick> gchristensen: they are all assigned to people who are clearly never gonna get around to them
<drakonis_> didn't think it was that high, always expected something to the tune of 200
<gchristensen> ah
<yorick> gchristensen: there's some PRs that should just kinda be accepted or rejected
<drakonis_> there's PRs from 2013 there
<drakonis_> backlog PRs assigned to peti even
<yorick> it's always annoying when you encounter a bug and there's a PR that fixes it from 2017
<gchristensen> many of those are newly assigned
<gchristensen> ("newly")
<yorick> last year
<drakonis_> ("""newly""")
<yorick> the elixir github repo currently has 12 open issues (out of 3706) and 5 open PRs (out of 5317)
<yorick> I always wonder how they do that
<drakonis_> well, look at the closed ones
<drakonis_> they actually merge them quickly
<joepie91> I'd caution against looking at issue counts
<joepie91> there's more than a few projects that auto-close issues after a while for example
<joepie91> to 'keep the issue count down'
<joepie91> which of course doesn't actually fix the issues
<drakonis_> the guy that created elixir is on the job
<yorick> the elixir issues are all fixed, rejected or forwarded upstream and closed
<yorick> (most of them fixed)
<joepie91> right :)
<drakonis_> certainly exemplar
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<averell> if not count, are any of the nixos github stats monitored? i was wondering if that new PR review-appeal made any difference
<drakonis_> check github's pulse for it
<drakonis_> it got merged last month, right?
<joepie91> averell: PR review appeal?
<averell> the template for new PRs.
<averell> seems pulse max duration is 1 month?
<drakonis_> seems like it
<drakonis_> i wish we'd use gitlab instead
<drakonis_> this is so much better
<averell> heh, maybe. but i switched to 3 months and got a 500 :)
<joepie91> oh, I didn't know about that template change
<joepie91> nice!
<drakonis_> we still cant dip below 1200 pull requests tho
<gchristensen> I can never find the code on gitlab :C
* joepie91 really dislikes gitlab
<drakonis_> why tho?
<gchristensen> because I can never find the code on gitlab :C
<drakonis_> apparently code is under details
<pie_> Drakonis_, moar automation - unless its like...actual features, in which case, ¯\_(:D)_/¯
<drakonis_> well to be fair
<drakonis_> it lets you do much more when you own the instance
<joepie91> Drakonis_: because its UI is a mess
<drakonis_> there's also sr.ht
<drakonis_> but nahhhhhhhhh
<joepie91> it's way too difficult to find anything
<drakonis_> yes the UI isn't anything to write home about
<drakonis_> run gitea instead
<joepie91> given that the literal purpose of this type of software is to be a UI for git repos, that's kind of a dealbreaker for me :D
<joepie91> yeah
<joepie91> Gitea is fine
<joepie91> I prefer it over github actually
<drakonis_> i'd honestly prefer if the repo was hosted elsewhere, but then there's the caveat that github is the current leader in hosting repos
<drakonis_> in the git repo hosting universe
<averell> maybe if enough chinese people are fed up with the ban we'll get something decentralized
<drakonis_> it... does exist already
<averell> what is it?
<drakonis_> there's a few attempts
<drakonis_> but isn't git already decentralized?
<averell> in principle maybe, de facto everybody uses github,lab or bitbucket
<drakonis_> oh you mean like a decentralized git host?
<averell> yes, and with issue tracker and all the other necessities
<pie_> am i making some dumb mistake here https://bpaste.net/show/17db9389db0a
<pie_> results in: error: opening file '/nix/store/ng1rf5rlsylscnnz4kn8yl9h92alk8gk-source/default.nix': No such file or directory, with a nixpkgs that looks like it only has the repo/pkgs directory
<pie_> (nvm, xposted to main)
<ajs124> averell, like gittorrent? although the whole issue tracker thing isn't that easy with that. maybe IPFS can solve this somehow.
<pie_> i cant remember who was doing te website for "nix is used in ..."
<pie_> but maybe an endorsement from mozilla could be gotten?
<pie_> i kind of forgot they also use nix apparently?
<ajs124> pie_: garbas works at mozilla and uses nix iirc
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<pie_> the context is i opened https://garbas.si/2016/updating-your-nix-sources.html hehe
<drakonis_> pie_, that's "built with nix"
<infinisil> Oh nice
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