gchristensen changed the topic of #nixos-chat to: NixOS but much less topical || https://logs.nix.samueldr.com/nixos-chat
<Shados> Kim: That's interesting, I assume the error it gives is of the near-useless kind >.>? I'll probably have a go at stealing that bit of your config for myself some time this week, so maybe I'll run into the issue
<Shados> Although on that note, you should add a license to the repo
<samueldr> that rust thing I did yesterday, got it in a better state, published here https://github.com/samueldr/kbd_backlight-fiddler
<samueldr> curious how and if it works with other laptops with a keyboard backlight
<samueldr> some corners _are_ cut in the code right now, but AFAICT nothing important security wise... main corner being cut is it picks the first keyboard backlight it finds, so if somehow you have more than one it might not work as expected
<aanderse> samueldr: if you ping me tomorrow and i can test :)
<samueldr> note that I'm also sharing for a proper roast^W^W^W an initial review, that being literally the first thing I wrote in rust
<aanderse> :)
<aanderse> i haven't got into rust yet
<aanderse> my one buddy keeps telling me i *have* to
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<Kim> Shados: Just says it isn't defined
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<sphalerite> Church-: sentry is actually open source, backtrace isn't afaict?
<sphalerite> systemd blowing up when a single mount fails can be quite annoying :|
<eyJhb> My boot time in my docking station, is at least 3 minutes
<sphalerite> eyjhb: I sometimes take a long time to wake up and get out of bed too
<eyJhb> My laptops boot time** :D
<yorick> dhcpcd slowing down the boot is annoying
<sphalerite> :D
<eyJhb> Displaylink being a .... is basically my problem. Some clash between that and VirtualBox..
<yorick> the bios takes 3 times as long to POST when a docking station is attached, but sometimes it manages to display over it
<{^_^}> #44524 (by vincentbernat, 40 weeks ago, merged): dhcpcd service: order before network target
<sphalerite> eyjhb: displaylink sucks. Kill it with fire!
<sphalerite> :)
<yorick> eyjhb: I touch a lot of cursed technology but never displaylinks
<eyJhb> I agree, but I really enjoy my three displays.. And I will not sacrifice 4 GB of ram to do eGPU.............
<yorick> eyjhb: get another external display?
<eyJhb> How should I connect it?
<yorick> displayport daisy-chain?
<eyJhb> Doesn't work on my x230 as far as I know
<adisbladis> I recently learned that apple lightning is even worse than displaylink https://www.idownloadblog.com/2013/03/02/lightning-digital-av-adapter/
<yorick> eyjhb: the internet tells me the "Series 3 Dock" has two displayport outputs
<eyJhb> Doesn't work using them, only supports 2 external displays, at a maximum.. Have it and have tried :/
<eyJhb> So I basically need to either use USB 3.0 display, or use a eGPU
<yorick> eyjhb: two on the dock and one on the miniDP on the laptop
<yorick> this guy on a forum got " 3 External via DP on the series 3 dock, and one miniDP on the X230 laptop." to work
<eyJhb> I am 99.9% sure I have tried it ,and it failed
<eyJhb> Might have to try again. Running anything graphical on a USB 3.0 display is.. No fun
<eyJhb> Hurts my CPU
<yorick> sphalerite: yeah, that thread is the source of one of my weekly "AAARGH"s
<yorick> (I've just resigned to not rebooting often, but lately my suspend is broken again)
<sphalerite> yorick: I just had an even bigger AAAARGH in #nixos :p
<joepie91> Church-: with "open-source" I mean actually open-source, not "proprietary but open-source projects can get a free account" :)
<joepie91> (Sentry's platform itself is entirely open-source, just also available as a hosted thing)
<yorick> joepie91: how do you figure out the difference?
<joepie91> yorick: between?
<yorick> joepie91: open source and proprietary but open-source
<joepie91> I didn't say "proprietary but open-source", I said "proprietary, but open-source projects can get a free account"
<Taneb> yorick: I think you're misreading joepie91, the second one was "closed source projects that support open source"
<yorick> ah :D
<joepie91> right
<Taneb> I guess GitHub is an obvious example
<joepie91> yeah
<joepie91> well, most shiny dev startups really
<yorick> I've seen many GPLv3 projects with only employed contributors
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<pie__> anyone want to see something like https://bpaste.net/show/c8b9088e7f09 upstreamed
<Synthetica> pie__: Wouldn't hurt to have
<pie__> also i need a suggestion where to put it
<pie__> guess i could put it in lib.debug
<Synthetica> lib.debug could work, might also be suitable for lib.strings
<pie__> hm, debug says "/* Collection of functions useful for debugging broken nix expressions." though and im not sure this is what they mean
<pie__> feels to me like debug is more eval-time
<sphalerite> pie__: expressions are eval-time :)
<pie__> sphalerite, i meant as opposed to my phase wrappy thing
<sphalerite> pie__: aah right
<pie__> not sure if theres somewhere stdenv appropriate for thisor if i should start a new lib file
<pie__> gchristensen, do you have any pointers?
<joepie91> 0x00000000
<joepie91> :P
<pie__> nyeh :p
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<pie__> unrelated, neato https://discourse.nixos.org/t/what-are-your-goals-for-19-09/2875 re: stuff about community orga. its always nice to see some sort of self organization :D
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<Church-> joepie91: Yeah no fair enough. Sentry is fully open source. I maintain we have the better product/program however.
<Church-> Which we do
<samueldr> aanderse: don't know if it's tomorrow neough for you to test the thing, if you still wanted to :)
<joepie91> gchristensen: seen the kernel RCE?
<gchristensen> yeah
<joepie91> information seems rather sparse at the moment
<gchristensen> grsec acct had a good tweet
<joepie91> (also, is NixOS affected?)
<gchristensen> probably
<gchristensen> not sure, been in calls ever since I saw it :/
<joepie91> thanks
<gchristensen> might want to turn this off: $ zcat /proc/config.gz | grep -i RDS
<gchristensen> CONFIG_RDS=m
<joepie91> "turn this off" == ?
<joepie91> no idea what any of that is
<simpson> "Currently, RDS can be transported over Infiniband, and loopback. RDS over TCP is disabled, but will be re-enabled in the near future."
<simpson> Lucky 10000 for me. It's called "in development" in the man page. I wonder whether this matters since it's in such a dusty and unused corner of the kernel, but we could disable the module.
<aanderse> samueldr: it is!
<aanderse> samueldr: just link me and let me know what you're looking for and i'll find a few minutes
<samueldr> in reality I was more looking for eyes on the code, but anyone testing it works is fine too lol https://github.com/samueldr/kbd_backlight-fiddler
<aanderse> oh
<samueldr> though, unless your keyboard doesn't match the glob listed in the README, I believe it should work
<aanderse> strange... nothing matching /sys/class/leds/*::kbd_backlight/ on my laptop
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<samueldr> aw, what make and model?
<samueldr> I wasn't entirely positive whether they would _all_ match or only some, or most
<aanderse> HP EliteBook 840 G3
<samueldr> looks like it might be handled entirely through its firmware or EC, and the OS isn't aware of it, from a cursory glance
<aanderse> ah
<aanderse> hmm
<aanderse> i thought i recall at some point changing the lights... but maybe that was via hardware keys and not kde
<Synthetica> aanderse: I just checked, and on my machine it only shows up after I press the button
<Synthetica> (ThinkPad t470)
<aanderse> ah
<samueldr> in the case of my laptop, there is no EC support for the backlight, all driver/software controlled
<samueldr> though I'm highly likely to keep it off, who needs to see the keys? at least it was a good learning exercise :)
<sphalerite> gchristensen: I just watched "Madam Sandi Tells Your Future". Holy crap. That was brilliant.
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<gchristensen> so good!
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<sphalerite> joepie91: the PlayStation game does run directly from the CD! So I've been wripping it wrong I guess. Do you happen to know things about ripping PSX games? :)
<andi-> Didnt they reverse the drive spin direction?
<samueldr> that was a myth for the gamecube
<andi-> Ahh
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<etu> samueldr: It was an amazing and fun myth tough :D
<etu> One of the better one
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<andi-> meh, wrong channel
<pie_> > 6 minutes ago
<{^_^}> attempt to call something which is not a function but an integer, at (string):253:1
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<infinisil> Just went to a talk from Richard Stallman :o
<infinisil> I am a convinced libre software person now
<gchristensen> he didn't eat his feet did he
<pie_> damn
<infinisil> He did not, I'm pretty sure
<pie_> gchristensen, come on, its not a stallman talk without any foot eating :(
<infinisil> I shall henceforth call it its proper name GNU/Linux
<pie_> Nix/GNU/OS
<infinisil> And I'm considering giving Guix System a try
<gchristensen> cool, infinisil
<pie_> trying a different paradigm is always a good idea if you have enough time
<infinisil> Well it's not a different paradigm
<gchristensen> Guix is the same paradigm, no?
<pie_> yes and no? i mean i havent used it myself
<infinisil> It's very much like Nix
<joepie91> isn't Guix basically "Nix, but Scheme and GNU"
<cransom> huh, they must be feeling good, they branded 1.0.0 on the second.
<pie_> but like, lisp
<infinisil> pie_: The programming language used should be pretty
<infinisil> Non-important tbh
<pie_> uh
<pie_> you wanna use c++ for instead of nix?
<pie_> eh, im distracted and not prepared to properly back this up righ tnow
<infinisil> Oh wait, scheme isn't functional?
<pie_> i was being hyperbolic
<infinisil> Or decalarative?
<pie_> but no it isnt necessariyl
<pie_> something something multiparadigm probably
<infinisil> I mean, all lisp i know are very much imperative
<pie_> though i think most people conflate lisp with it's syntax, but im really lacking experience in that department
<infinisil> Oh well I'll get my opinion when I check it out
<pie_> i think you can use it functionally but it doesnt force you to, also you can use an embedded DSL and IDK what GUIX does
<pie_> yeah \o/
<pie_> assimilate your diversified knowledge into the hivemnd
<pie_> the nixmind
<pie_> also i should go home before i get kicked out of the building lol
<infinisil> I think now would be a good time to upgrade my laptop so I could get rid of non-libre broadcom drivers
<__monty__> I hope you don't have a recent CPU cause you might just be throwing drops on an inferno.
<infinisil> How so?
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<__monty__> IME, You don't want to be running any proprietary firmware now, do you?
<yorick> infinisil: sleep on it a few days, see how you feel about free software then
<infinisil> __monty__: yeah
<samueldr> or at least, you should understand where those are, to decide whether you're fine with what's available
<samueldr> compromises have to be made at some point because of the general state of things :/
* samueldr would like to make fewer compromises though
<drakonis> rms talked about guix?
<infinisil> Nah
<infinisil> I intended to ask about his opinion on guix, but there were so many idiotic questions that the time ran out..
<gchristensen> guix on riscv!
<drakonis> just run guix to learn how to make nix better
<infinisil> I feel like once you run guix and are "in", you won't have a reason to spend your time on nix and would rather help with guix
<infinisil> Just a guess here
<gchristensen> that is certainly my experience
<infinisil> gchristensen: you are a guix person?
<gchristensen> no
<gchristensen> I would rather help with Nix than anything else
<infinisil> Ah yeah
<infinisil> Before I knew about Nix[OS] I was a big fan of Swift. I wrote libraries for it and discussed cool things with the community. But now I see no point in doing that anymore
<gchristensen> yeah. I used to do *a lot* with Chef
<sphalerite> interesting, I think nix* was my first "obsession"
<cransom> i went from networking/automation on juniper stuff to spending most of the day in nix.
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<gchristensen> anyway infinisil
<gchristensen> by all means, go check it out :) we'll miss you if you get sucked in though ;)
<infinisil> Hehe
<infinisil> Will do
<infinisil> yorick: Did you opinion on free software change after sleeping about it? 21:24 yorick: infinisil: sleep on it a few days, see how you feel about free software then
<infinisil> s/you/your
<yorick> infinisil: yes, pragmatism usually wins over idealism
<yorick> infinisil: also I mostly disagree with intellectual property, including copyleft
<infinisil> Well, I'm already using NixOS, which is on the low end of the practical spectrum
* gchristensen obviously disagrees
<infinisil> yorick: What is it that you don't agree with specifically?
<infinisil> gchristensen: It's easy for us to say that NixOS is easy to use, but we need to think of the average joe, who isn't a linux nerd and programmer
<gchristensen> I didn't say it was easy to use
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<infinisil> Ah
<gchristensen> I think what it enables is incredible valuable and practical
<__monty__> I mostly like it because of the ease of mind.
<samueldr> I'm too lazy to use a linux distro the usual way... so I'm using NixOS :)
<gchristensen> hehe yes!
<infinisil> gchristensen: Hmm but still, my mom will say it's not practical because she can't run Word on it
<gchristensen> I agree it is not a good choice for her
<yorick> infinisil: copyright is the legal ability to limit what other people do with information you create
<yorick> infinisil: this gives us Disney as well as Microsoft as well as GPL
<yorick> except that copyright is obviously targeted at the disney side, and nobody really knows what to do with GPL except that it probably technically works in most cases
<infinisil> I don't quiet get what you're trying to say
<infinisil> quite*
<yorick> infinisil: I don't agree that it is a good idea to have a legal framework enabling control over what people do with information they receive from you
<infinisil> Hmm alright, can't really agree with this in general
<gchristensen> anyone want to work with NixOS at a company building processors? https://groq.bamboohr.com/jobs/view.php?id=12 formal methods, haskell, compilers, NixOS
<yorick> infinisil: it doesn't really work with the internet
<infinisil> I mean GPL has the restriction that any software that uses it has to be GPL licensed as well, which fosters collaboration and sharing
<yorick> gchristensen: caveat: you have to be in the US?
<infinisil> That looks like a good restriction to me
<joepie91> "which fosters collaboration and sharing"
<joepie91> this has shown to be a largely questionable premise in practice :)
<joepie91> that might be what it's designed to do on paper, but in practice...
<infinisil> joepie91: Can you elaborate?
<__monty__> gchristensen: Want to give us wet dreams?
<yorick> infinisil: LLVM's main reason for success is that apple wanted something non-GPL
<gchristensen> __monty__: :)
<yorick> infinisil: have you seen the latest ZFS conundrum?
<gchristensen> it might be interesting to consider what "foster" means
<cransom> zfs has never not been a licensing conundrum.
<joepie91> infinisil: sure. in practice, the parties who need protecting from GPL violations rarely have the means to sue over them, which means that violations are widespread and rarely countered. at the same time, it's burdening well-intentioned open-source developers with a lot of licensing caveats, to the point of many - well-intentioned!- developers not really wanting to deal with the GPL, thus hindering collaboration by creating rifts over licensing
<joepie91> matters.
<joepie91> basically, the core function of the GPL in practice appears to be creating legal busywork for open-source developers
<manveru> do we need #nixos-licensing?
<gchristensen> we need #nixos-yes-i-am-a-lawyer
<infinisil> So the problem is, GPL works well as long as you don't need to interact with other licenses? joepie91 yorick
<yorick> "would you like to update gitlab every month in a company that probably works on cool stuff"
<yorick> infinisil: no, most people avoid GPL software or use it only where it doesn't matter, or just violate it and hope nobody notices
<infinisil> Oh and the fact that nobody actually enforces GPL
<yorick> (which they mostly don't)
<joepie91> infinisil: I'm not sure how you derived that from what I said :)
<joepie91> given that my point is basically "the GPL doesn't work well at all"
<gchristensen> I sort of feel that these license discussions are not a great topic for #nixos-chat
<infinisil> Yeah right i derived that more from yorick's point
<joepie91> ah, right
<manveru> licenses is religion for software devs :P
<yorick> okay let's get back off topic then :P
* manveru hides
<yorick> gchristensen: do they offer relocation? :P
<gchristensen> hmm
<gchristensen> from where?
<yorick> europe
<infinisil> Okay so two problems: GPL doesn't work well with other licenses and GPL is often violated without repercussions
<joepie91> bath time, bbl
<infinisil> That both seems solvable by just using GPL everywhere :P
<yorick> infinisil: also it just makes your software unused in the space where the gpl would matter
<infinisil> I'm still pretty convinced of libre software, but thanks for highlighting these problems
<gchristensen> definitely yes
<gchristensen> the definition of libre is complicated
<yorick> libre as in beer
<gchristensen> hahaha
<samueldr> your beer source should be closed, otherwise it's gonna go flat
<gchristensen> I really appreciate that in one swoop you eliminated the distinction "free as in beer" tries to make.
<yorick> in general, though, people should not tolerate companies shipping build artifacts and calling them software
<yorick> (e.g. windows)
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<infinisil> gchristensen: Stallman pointed out that we should be encouraged to use other languages to express the difference between the two meanings of free
<gchristensen> sure
<infinisil> In german it would be "frei" for libre software and "gratis" for no cost
<infinisil> "libre" is french too :P
<infinisil> Damn you english and your ambiguities
<infinisil> We should all learn Lojban already
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<simpson> infinisil: u'i xo do tavla? https://mw.lojban.org/papri/la_karda can get you started.
<infinisil> Hehe that page was in my bookmarks already
<infinisil> simpson: You can speak it?
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<simpson> infinisil: Somewhat. "libre" might be {zifre}, and "gratis" {nonjdima}. There isn't an equivalent for "free as in puppy", though.
<pie_> free as in puppy sounds a lot better than free software
<joepie91> "In raw terms, people sentenced to prison were more likely to be arrested for and convicted of additional crimes. But once additional factors were controlled for—like eliminating parole violations that people who weren't in prison couldn't commit—this difference vanished. There was no statistically significant effect of imprisonment, suggesting that it did little to deter people from further criminal activity."
<Church-> Hmm I should grab a new external
<Church-> joepie91: 10TB easystores are only $150
<gchristensen> https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT210107 "the latest security updates and may reduce performance by up to 40 percent"
<Church-> gchristensen: Yeah we've been chatting about the new speculative attacks for the last hour.
<pie_> is this an additional 40 percent? :D
<drakonis> i think it might be in general
<__monty__> Wow, suddenly the performance of the old CPUs that didn't yet have IME or can have it disabled doesn't look so bad : )
<drakonis> joepie91, what does tough on crime even mean?
<gchristensen> this has nothing to do with IME
<drakonis> __monty__, they're still largely slower than existing cpus
<drakonis> because mitigating side channel through software does not inherently make them slower than cpus releeased nearly 20 years ago
<__monty__> I know spectre has nothing to do with IME. But getting rid of spectre exploits and not IME exploits doesn't seem all that productive.
<joepie91> Drakonis: it means a punitive 'justice' system that is focused on revenge rather than rehabilitation :)
<__monty__> Is IME 20 years old?
<__monty__> Closing the gap in performance still makes it a more valid choice imo.
<drakonis> no its 11 years old
<drakonis> joepie91, oh :|
<__monty__> Drakonis: And CPU performance more than doubled over (less than) the last decade? Color me skeptical.
<drakonis> it hasnt doubled in a while now
<drakonis> it has been increments of 10% on a year over year basis
<drakonis> a 2019 cpu is mathematically 2.853 times faster than a 2008 cpu
<drakonis> unless the gains went down
<drakonis> mind you that this conversation will be pointless whenever intel and amd ship hardware with fixes to sidechannel attacks
<gchristensen> ARM shines a light on the way
<drakonis> as that will allow them to regain most if not all of the lost performance
<drakonis> ARM? risc-v all the way, baby
<gchristensen> "shines a light"
<samueldr> don't forget that instruction sets will change some workload
<gchristensen> shove 100 cores in to a single CPU and never share it between jobs
<samueldr> e.g. if SSSE4 or whatever newfangled hash/crypto instructions like AES are used, newer CPUs will most likely be more performant
<drakonis> there was some ridiculous 1024 core risc-v cpu
<drakonis> must require some really specialize programming to make it work
<drakonis> epiphany
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<drakonis> seems kind of absurd though
<drakonis> 1024 low complexity cores
<pie_> infinite recursion encountered, at /nix/store/vi1ial7iswah07whvl9hkbsq26pqg8a2-nix-2.2.2/share/nix/corepkgs/derivation.nix:18:9
<pie_> would be nice if it at least complained about my code and not the system :C
<__monty__> I'm on a 2.4GHz core2duo from 2008, a 2019 i9-9900k has 5.0GHz boost clock. So even optimistically that's only 1.9x over a decade.
<pie_> but whatcha gonna go
<pie_> *d
<pie_> sorry, do
<pie_> __monty__, something something power consumption
<pie_> (?)
<drakonis> that's a thing
<drakonis> __monty__, you don't measure cpu speeds only in clock though
<drakonis> rookie mistake number 1
<__monty__> I know. Just saying that the old CPUs system76 or puri.sm offers are looking a whole lot better if there's 40% performance cuts across the board.
<__monty__> I think their main reason is avoiding IME.
<__monty__> So you can have 100% open firmware.
<drakonis> you can also run power cpus
<pie_> something something POWER consumption
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<pie_> tfw you accidentally nest packages in an overlay and that somehow causes infinite recursion (man how did this eval in the first place lol)
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<gchristensen> yorick: they said it is a possibility
<Shados> pie_: Every now and then I seriously consider one of those talos workstations...
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