gchristensen changed the topic of #nixos-chat to: NixOS but much less topical || https://logs.nix.samueldr.com/nixos-chat
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<infinisil> Oh remember when I talked about black holes some time ago and how they evaporate over time?
<infinisil> Sixtysymbols apparently has a great video explaining it: https://youtu.be/IRcmqZkGOK4
<gchristensen> "you can borrow energy as long as you put it back before anybody notices"
<samueldr> doesn't work for sleep
<gchristensen> that is amazing, infinisil!
<infinisil> The thing I don't get is: How can he say "before anybody notices" but then make an experiment where they *do* notice
<Ralith> what are you going to be using the display for?
<Ralith> I'd expect you to stop noticing the difference pretty quick
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<Shados> elvishjerricco: Sounds mostly like... any non-stable sort, with a human oracle plugged in place of the comparison function?
<Shados> infinisil: You also occasionally have things like movies that are pretty bad when you're watching them, but have an ending that completely alters how you perceived the rest of the movie.
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<infinisil> Shados: Yeah..
<infinisil> In addition, with music at least, i find that my perceived goodness of it decreases over time. When I first listen to a song I might like it a lot, but not as much after 2 months
<infinisil> But the rate of this decrease seems to be different for all songs. And the really good ones are the ones that never get worse
<Shados> Hahaha, that does happen to me for some songs, but most music I like *more* over time, or not much to begin with.
<infinisil> And then we didn't even take into account different moods. Depending on how I feel today, i like different songs more
<infinisil> Man, it's so complex
<Shados> And thus, you start tagging things. But then you still potentially want orderings (this song is sad, but not as sad as this other song...), and you end up wanting parameterized tags. Which I think are probably only an idea in mine and some other peoples' heads, because I at least haven't found something with an implementation of them...
<joepie91> Shados: can confirm, am one of the other people's heads, and never found an implementation
<joepie91> Shados: then again, I've been wanting for a very similar thing for browser bookmarks for a while now, and it seems that Firefox for Android is going to actually start implementing that, so :P
<joepie91> or a variation thereof anyway, with its 'sessions'
<joepie91> (that is, I want bookmarks with ordered context, something inbetween a set of tabs and a set of bookmarks)
<joepie91> (and tags)
<Shados> I'd definitely like parameterized tagging on bookmarks, but mostly I want the fairly arbitrary borders between tabs, history, and bookmark to get a whole lot blurrier.
<Shados> Sadly there's no chance of doing this in modern firefox; webextensions are too neutered, and they'll never get anything like the APIs that would be required
<joepie91> [14:11] <Shados> I'd definitely like parameterized tagging on bookmarks, but mostly I want the fairly arbitrary borders between tabs, history, and bookmark to get a whole lot blurrier.
<joepie91> yep
<joepie91> exactly
<Shados> Although Servo is aiming to be embeddable at some point, so there's hope I guess
<joepie91> we're already halfway there from a technical perspective tbh
<joepie91> with how inactive tabs get swapped to disk
<joepie91> and/or thrown away
<Shados> Yeah
<joepie91> it's pretty much just a UX thing
<joepie91> that still needs to happen
<Shados> But actually, I want more of what pre-blink Opera did, where it would store some amount of DOM state in temporary history, so un-closed tabs retained things like text entry contents etc.
<Shados> Blur the lines further!
<joepie91> both Firefox and Chrome actually already do that
<gchristensen> yeah
<joepie91> the problem is the massive pile of sites that break this
<joepie91> because they insisted on being an SPA for no reason at all
<joepie91> so in practice that feature has been becoming less and less useful over the years
<Shados> I've never noticed it working at all in firefox, huh
<joepie91> Shados: if you use a good old, no-client-side-JS, HTML+CSS only form, you should see this happening
<joepie91> there just aren't many of those left :)
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<Shados> It worked OK with client side JS forms in Opera, however. It just broke things that couldn't handle their underlying connection dying
<Shados> In less depressing news, fanotify became actually useful as of pretty much this week, so daemons that watch FS events could get more efficient and reliable
<gchristensen> oh?
<Shados> Yeah. In Linux 5.1 it actually includes create, delete, and move events, among other improvements.
<Shados> Meaning one could ditch the horror that is inotify
<joepie91> \o/
<joepie91> well, not yet
<gchristensen> wowwww yasss
<joepie91> we have to wait 10 years first
<joepie91> until Red Hat updates to a kernel with proper fanotify
<joepie91> :p
<Shados> Man, clients may be stuck with RH, but my work laptop is NixOS :)
<gchristensen> and then another 10 years, joepie91, when their users finally switch
<joepie91> lol
<Shados> Hah! Only 10? At my last job, we had a client running Red Hat Linux 9, in 2016.
<Shados> Not RHEL. RHL.
<Shados> I seriously doubt they've stopped, too
<ar> oh wow
<joepie91> Shados: I was being optimistic :(
<Arahael> Luckily, nix lets you have an alternative package system :)
<ar> Shados: a friend of mine works at a company making software for, among other things, power plants. they have customers running SunOS 5.x
<Shados> Yep, I can't top that
<Arahael> People still use Windows XP in the enterprise.
<Arahael> Top *that*.
<Shados> Although, I think our sister company has a legacy app running in wine on an old Solaris version, for reasons I daren't ask...
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<sphalerite> opensnoop from linuxPackages.bcc provides some rather fascinating info
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<pie__> are there any pitfalls I should pay attention to when setting the phases variable?
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<gchristensen> generally, setting the phases variable is undesirable
<pie__> so what should I do
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<LnL> there are a bunch of flags to disable specific phases
<LnL> and variables to add extra phases instead of overriding everything
<LnL> depending on what you want
<pie__> generally im writing my own buildphase and installphase
<pie__> i think for starters i dont want unpackphase because sometimes i supply my own stuff and it shouldnt error on unpackphase missing src
<pie__> also if thats true maybe nixpkgs needs some cleaning in this regard as well, or are the overrides in there usually fine?
<pie__> i.e. you aren't saying to avoid overriding phases
<pie__> well, i guess part of my question is also "when isnt it safe to disable any given phase?"
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<LnL> ah override a phase, not "phases"
<LnL> only exception is fixupPhase, it includes important things for multiple outputs
<pie__> to clarify, im doing phases = [ "buildPhase" "installPhase" ]
<LnL> yeah that's bad, use unpackPhase = ":"; ... instead
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<pie__> that *looks* like a hack ;~;
<pie__> is that documented anywhere
<samueldr> : is true
<samueldr> : is a shell builtin
<samueldr> it's the usual shell no-op stand-in
<joepie91> this is the first time I hear about either a) phases being the wrong way, or b) ":" being the correct way
<ar> there's a story behind :
<joepie91> so uh
<joepie91> possibly a bit of a documentation/UX issue there :)
<joepie91> if the obvious API is the wrong one
<ar> you see, *ages* ago : was used for making labels
<samueldr> the issue with replacing phases is you're likely to accidentally lose fixupPhase, which is full of the good kind of magic :/
<ar> as in, : label_name
<joepie91> samueldr: this is really not obvious /at all/ though
<ar> because on old unixes there was a "goto" for shell scripting, so you could just jump around the shell script with "goto label_name"
<samueldr> joepie91: and you're right
<ar> if this doesn't yet sound horrible, it was an external command
<pie__> i mean is using : as opposed to disabling it documented
<pie__> <joepie91> this is the first time I hear about either a) phases being the wrong way, or b) ":" being the correct way
<pie__> *wrong quote i meant <joepie91> if the obvious API is the wrong one
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<joepie91> samueldr: the documentation does not seem to make *any* mention of any of this at all: https://nixos.org/nixpkgs/manual/#ssec-controlling-phases
<pie__> ar, dam lol
<pie__> samueldr, i think the reason i even bothered asking is some vague inkling of having seen fixupphase "do magic" in the logs before
<samueldr> ar: IIRC related to how file descriptors were given to child processes; goto would change the FD for the file being read to point it to wherever the label was
<pie__> and if you override phases, suddenly no fixuphase, but i havent had an issue from it yet
<pie__> but then one would expect the answer to be to keep fixupphase in the phases list when overriding the list
<pie__> and not overriding a phase with some weird character
<ar> samueldr: just when i thought it couldn't get any worse. i was kind of hoping it was, maybe, serializing all variables and forcing an exec()ed new shell at a given location, or something like that
<sphalerite> there's dontBuild and dontInstall, I don't see why there isn't a dontUnpack
<pie__> i might be being a bit harsh, not sure - i dont mean to be, basically i think ive become a bit irritable lately by APIs the pitfalls of which are not obvious
<sphalerite> but I think dontBuild and dontInstall are preferred over buildPhase = ":";
<pie__> sphalerite, i think what im trying to argue is "how do i know what i can should and shouldnt disable and when etc etc"
<sphalerite> yeah
<sphalerite> answer: ask in IRC :D
<pie__> thats horrible :P
<sphalerite> I know
<pie__> also this might boil down to "learn how the hell stdenv works"
<pie__> not sure
<pie__> lots of magic going on here
<pie__> which is fine until you disable half of it by accident
<pie__> anyway, sorry, kind of preaching to the chior
<pie__> choir
<pie__> "halp wtf i am confus"
<pie__> for the record i dont actually have any problems right now, just wondering about converting coworkers or whoever to nix and then what happens when they run into something weird and start hating me :p
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<sphalerite> the way I like to say it is that there are various things that suck about using nix, but the good things more than make up for it
<joepie91> that's only true if one is willing to make a significant upfront investment, though
<joepie91> I'd like to see that change
<sphalerite> true
<sphalerite> or just stop the things that suck from sucking
<joepie91> to a point where "just use Nix" becomes the ergonomically logical default for system administration problems, without needing to go "hmm, but are the weeks of work worth it"
<pie__> i just hacked go2nix to be callable via IFD in like a day or two but 1) i guess thats a day or two 2) im probably definitely an intermediate/advanced user at this point
<joepie91> yeah
<pie__> i...think fixuphase might have still run actually even with the phases override
<pie__> but i didnt look into it more
<pie__> meh, does anyone plan to do something about this problem or do I need to open an issue? id be happy if anyone else were up for opening an issue
<pie__> bit distracted right now and actually managing to get some stuff done today
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<pie__> f*** https://golang.org/src/crypto/x509/root_linux.go i hope this isnt the only thing they use
<gchristensen> pie__: and I think we have a patch againstit
<pie__> go does take cacert
<pie__> but i overrode cacert and its still broken
<pie__> ill look around some more though
<pie__> gchristensen, found the patch
<pie__> gchristensen, hmm looks like the cacert dependency does nothing then?
<pie__> cacert hash a setup hook that implicitly sets an env var but its the wrong one i think
<pie__> well, its correct for some things but not for this
<pie__> (but then how does it work at all?)
<pie__> ah no...go *does* take SSL_CERT_FILE, which is what cacert sets...why doesnt this work ;~;
<pie__> oh...i think maybe the problem is that our cacert override might not have the setup hook
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<pie__> oh yeah i think that was it...sorry for the spam :p
<gchristensen> no worries :)
<pie__> nevermind iddnt fix it just introducing more bugs as i go... ;~;
<pie__> i think i might need to reread the docs one of these days probably been totally rewritten since i last did it xD
<pie__> the setup hook list got bigger
<pie__> aaaapparntly the setup hook ...a setup hook runs if i just add it to buildinputs right?
<pie__> SSL_CERT_FILE is /no-cert-file.crt for some reason...
<pie__> oook so cacert is only *some* certs, not all system certs?
<pie__> im so lost ;~;
<pie__> ssl hell
<pie__> ok maybe sed is breaking the format
<pie__> maybe its sensitive and doesnt like AffirmTrust Commercial-----BEGIN CERTIFICATE-----
<elvishjerricco> Is it known that sms providers sell the contents of your texts to marketers? I'm not one to call out data theft after a few coincidences (birthday paradox and whatnot), but yesterday my brother asked what moving company I used a couple years ago, I said I couldn't remember the name, and today I got a marketing email from them :P
<gchristensen> cool, jo'
<joepie91> elvishjerricco: especially if in the US, I would not be surprised in the slightest
<joepie91> gchristensen: was that meant to highlight me? :P
<gchristensen> yea
<elvishjerricco> Yea I wouldn't be surprised, but a cursory google search didn't reveal any obvious scandals.
<joepie91> :)
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<gchristensen> writing patches for Nix can be fun, actually
<eyJhb> In what package would "fmt" be located?
<gchristensen> coreutils
<eyJhb> Thanks gchristensen ;)
<Ralith> elvishjerricco: I can report that, at least, your cell provider most likely *is* selling your location data to advertisers
<elvishjerricco> I have seen reports of that
<Ralith> e.g. via https://www.airsage.com/
<Ralith> a previous employer of mine looked into buying data from them; it is not very well anonymized.
<gchristensen> oof
<elvishjerricco> In theory, there are regulations against it, and several such companies have been shut down. But it seems like they're always popping back up...
<Ralith> this one's been around for several years, at least
<Ralith> afaict, in the US the regulations mostly require a token anonymization
<joepie91> when in doubt, ask twitter
<joepie91> :P
<elvishjerricco> well that's encouraging at least
<samueldr> but maybe one of the parties in the sms conversation has something on their device leaking contents of messages :(
<samueldr> at that point it's out of the telco's reach
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<joepie91> Twitter is being unusually helpful today, is there something in the water?
<elvishjerricco> Oh I just assume ISP's are selling as much as they can :P Encrypted in transit is important, though that doesn't help against them analyzing destinations / frequency / volume
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<pie__> oh my god. i got it to work. turns out error messages for malformed .crt files are EXTREMELY unhelpful
<pie__> a script was reformatting certs and inserted an extraneous newline at the end of a key if it ended on the 64th column
<pie__> because it did that and alsoadded a newline before -----END
<pie__> cat $files | tr -d '\n' | sed 's/E-----/E-----\n/g;s/-----END/\n-----END/g;s/-----BEGIN/\n-----BEGIN/g' | sed 's/.\{64\}/&\n/g' > $out/etc/ssl/certs/ca-bundle.crt
<pie__> at least thats what im assuming that sed line does, i cant read sed
<pie__> irc log search keywords for later people: SSL_CERT_FILE GIT_SSL_CAINFO
<pie__> i basically bisected by hand to find what in the crt file was causing things to break, because not all parts of it did
* pie__ needs a bisect-file utility
<pie__> another keyword for git: error setting certificate verify locations
<eyJhb> Ahh, I love when a single application starts using 500+ GB of ram
<eyJhb> And fucking all the cores
<gchristensen> tell me more about this «500+ GB of ram»
<joepie91> lol
<joepie91> eyJhb: did you accidentally start Chrome
<gchristensen> hah
<pie__> i need to learn how to do actual devops one of these days
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