gchristensen changed the topic of #nixos-chat to: NixOS but much less topical || https://logs.nix.samueldr.com/nixos-chat
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<sphalerite> drakonis_: I don't see what's so ridiculous about 1024 low complexity cores. There's consumer hardware with more, like the nvidia geforce gtx 1080 with 2560 cores
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<sphalerite> https://sphalerite.org/dump/yayapplehardware.jpg (filename says it all)
<ivan> sphalerite: these GPUs can't execute independent instruction streams
<sphalerite> low complexity ;)
<jasongrossman> sphalerite++
<{^_^}> sphalerite's karma got increased to 62
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<Shados> Just moved my work laptop from 4.18 to 5.1... combination of 5.1 IO/disk improvements, zfs improvements, and having zfs TRIM support now appears to have dramatically improved disk latencies under load. Was previously seeing some pretty pathological 5-7ms IO latencies on this system, now more like 100-350us under the same kind of load :).
<sphalerite> \o/
<eyJhb> Shados: damn that is some improvement!
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<Shados> Yeah, it's a very large difference practically speaking. Previously had a lot in the way of short interactivity stalls during heavy IO load, get none now. I didn't bother investigating it too hard previously, as most of my work is done on remote systems, and the disk IO stalls weren't impacting ssh/rdp/etc., but it was still annoying.
<eyJhb> Makes sense Shados. I haven't tested it at all, and am afraid of updating my kernel because of .... *sigh* DisplayLink
<Shados> eyjhb: Display...Link? What is that?
<eyJhb> Using it to get a third display using USB 3.0....
<Shados> Ah, so you're stuck with a blob for it?
<eyJhb> Pretty much. And they only officially support Ubuntu. And it only somewhat works. I get a 3 minute timeout when docking/using it..
<eyJhb> (when booting my laptop), but it works after
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<Shados> eyjhb: Come to think of it, a dock seems like the kind of hardware project that probably wouldn't be *too* hard to DIY, to some degree
<eyJhb> Shados if one had the time :p
<pie_> oh no
<pie_> the deaded "i have a problem somewhere in this huge string!" error
<pie_> value is a string with context while a set was expected
<pie_> *dreaded
<Shados> AKA a good third of the Nix eval errors you run into?
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<pie_> Shados, ya
<pie_> Shados, and theres an outdated patch sitting somewhere in the pr list that got abandoned
<gchristensen> link?
<domenkozar[m]> no mail yet as mailchimp is broken (sigh)
<domenkozar[m]> works in Firefox so we know what the devs are using :)
<gchristensen> glad to hear it
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<Shados> Huh, one of the SSDs in my desktop is down to 18% remaining lifespan... Might replace it and move it to go live as a read bcache in another system or something.
<ivan> not sure the media wearout level has much to do with SSD lifespan
<ivan> they're often rated quite conservatively on writes while SSDs also often just die from use quite early
<ivan> is the normalized value 18?
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<gchristensen> anyone know of a OneNote like thing, but foss?
<samueldr> describe the features you want and need from one note, for those not familiar with it
<gchristensen> having the ability to write text and also insert drawn diagrams seamlessly
<gchristensen> those are my two major things
<sphalerite> inkscape? :D
<gchristensen> :o
* joepie91 is also interested in an answer to that question
<samueldr> inkscape might be annoying with the "writing" part
<joepie91> yeah, inkscape's word processing capabilities are somewhere inbetween 'awkward' and 'non-existent'
<joepie91> it's not particularly ergonomic for diagrams either
<samueldr> awkward and hard to find
<samueldr> xournal might be good
<samueldr> depends on whether you intend to _draw_ diagrams or not
<samueldr> but not sure how it handles the writing part form a keyboard, I've been using pen input...
<samueldr> ... and AFAIK it doesn't OCR nor allows search
<gchristensen> I would want to draw yeah
<samueldr> (I too have been searching for something to take notes, especially something that can somewhat be searchable and OCR'd)
<joepie91> gchristensen: on which note, do you happen to have experience with Huion drawing tablets?
<samueldr> (and the OCR might help with my poor penmanship!)
<gchristensen> I don't, I have a Wacom Intuos
<joepie91> ah
<pie_> reading the weekly, yessss someone finally did this https://github.com/jameysharp/autobake
<pie_> im reminded that i havent written my cursed FUSE filesystem yes
<gchristensen> so, xournal looks pretty good
<gchristensen> it even has a shape recognizer, though I've only managed to get it to recognize once
<samueldr> it's a bit finnicky
<samueldr> there are tips in the xournal docs on its website
<samueldr> that manual helped me make it loads better than it already was
<samueldr> e.g. you can mark one input as the touchscreen, so that if you touch the screen it uses the "hand" tool
<samueldr> so there's not even need to disable the touch screen or do palm rejection
<gchristensen> interesting
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<gchristensen> I have an idea, I could run OneNote in a VM
<gchristensen> (help me)
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<gchristensen> samueldr: what would it take to have ofborg display ansi colors?
<samueldr> not sure
<samueldr> depends on whether it already is transmitting the right bytes to the logs
<samueldr> if it is, probably not that much
<samueldr> main issue being continuation on lines
<gchristensen> right
<gchristensen> I can make sure it transmits the bytes
<samueldr> though a real pragmatic issue is how stdout and stderr from the app are merged
<samueldr> from the build*
<gchristensen> oh yeah
<samueldr> but that's not really an issue
<samueldr> considering that's how terminals work
<samueldr> if your stderr comingles with a coloured stdout, it will be affected
<gchristensen> right
<samueldr> so yeah, main issue is continuation from previous line (as lines are different elements for misc. purposes)
<samueldr> but that's an implementation detail
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<infinisil> +1 for xournal
<infinisil> Just used it to overlay a pdf yesterday
<gchristensen> nice
<pie_> so i have a kind of messed up idea
<pie_> whats stopping me from just running normal applications from a build sandbox thats a fixed output derivation so I have networking, and just use X forwarding or something?
<pie_> (other than that its crazy)
<pie_> or should i just be using nixos-container or whatsit :p
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<tilpner> pie_: The number of applications you could run would be limited by the number of build users you have, and that would feel wrong
<pie_> add moar build users
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<pie_> f*** you firefox
<pie_> managed to totally delete my session somehow
<pie_> its got history but all the tabs are gone
<pie_> nothing in the backups folder
<__monty__> pie_: No previous.jsonlz4 in sessionstore-backups? Maybe a sessionstore.jsonlz4 in the profile directory?
<pie_> didnt see one
<infinisil> If you have ZFS snapshots you could roll back your file system
<infinisil> (or just get what you need from an older version)
<pie_> im a dumbass who still doesnt have proper daily backups
<eyJhb> pie_ just living the life on the edge, nothing wrong in that!
<pie_> with how much data loss ive experienced over the years i dont know how i dont learn
<pie_> well the one time i did configure backups i lost the backup decryption key and got frustrated and didnt bother again
<gchristensen> I should probably do that
<gchristensen> infinisil: how do you do thaht?
<infinisil> gchristensen: I don't know what file firefox uses to track sessions, but it ought to be in the filesystem somewhere
<infinisil> So as long as you have snapshots of it, it should be possible to restore it
<eyJhb> pie_ make the password 123456, will still keep most guys away
<samueldr> 1234567 it's got 7 more entropy
<infinisil> Worst case, zfs clone snapshots and run your system on that
<eyJhb> True, might throw a extra 9 1234567noteight
<eyJhb> And done!
<pie_> i haaaaate everything
<eyJhb> You will never remember that again anyways
* pie_ needs a hug
<eyJhb> Hey hey hey, i did nothing wrong!
<pie_> infinisil, i usually just use restic
<infinisil> pie_: The cool thing about ZFS snapshots is that they're really fast
<pie_> now if only the firefox history search wasnt garbage
<infinisil> I'm taking snapshots every 5 minutes, and I could even make that every 1 minute
<infinisil> (or even less)
<pie_> infinisil, i should do that tho
<gchristensen> I mean how do you manage your snapshots & copying them out
<eyJhb> So many shoulds in life, so little do.. :/
<infinisil> gchristensen: Ah, just cd into the .zfs directory
<infinisil> It's hidden, wherever your mount point is
<tilpner> gchristensen: sanoid/syncoid seem solid so far
<gchristensen> let me rephrase
<pie_> eyjhb, i think the problem is prioritizing the many shoulds
<gchristensen> how do you make them regularly, and how do you get them off? (not in general, how do *you* do it?)
<infinisil> Ahh
<infinisil> I use znapzend
<pie_> i exist to serve as an example to people for how not to do things
<infinisil> I feel like everyone has their disasters regarding data loss
<infinisil> And a firefox session is pretty harmless to other stuff xD
<pie_> yeah but i keep having them
<pie_> eh, its devastating for my mind :P
<pie_> i externalize a lot of state :I
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<pie_> what a crap day. i cant figure out why i cant mount an ntfs partition writable
<infinisil> boot.supportedFilesystems = [ "ntfs" ]?
<pie_> in boot?
<samueldr> pie_: ntfs-3g? did windows unmount it cleanly?
<pie_> samueldr, no idea it hasnt seen windows in ages
<pie_> samueldr, i ...think I have ntfs-3g?
<infinisil> Yes in boot, it's an option
<samueldr> verify you use ntfs-3g; the kernel ntfs option is (was?) read-only
<pie_> how do i verify
<infinisil> Well I only needed that to mount ntfs writable, pretty sure
<pie_> mount lists the type as "ntfs"
<pie_> samueldr, though this is starting to sound familiar
<pie_> waaaait a minute, i vaguely remember needing to use the ntfs-3g tool specifically, which is stupid
<samueldr> sorry for your loss
<pie_> samueldr, omg
<samueldr> maybe if you do the same thing as that pie_ fella
<pie_> this is so dumbbb
<pie_> i haaaaate everythiiiing
<pie_> and htis time i mean running into the same UX problem i did a year and a half ago and forgetting about it
<pie_> why isnt ntfs-3g used by default anyway
* sphalerite wonders if there's a handy tool for converting zfs snapshots into a git repository :D
<__monty__> That sounds like a bad idea. Git isn't exactly efficient with its data representation.
<infinisil> sphalerite: ZFS backend for git!
<pie_> git backend for zfs
<pie_> preferably in python
<pie_> also firefox's damn compressed format now means i cant even try searching the disk for raw strings
<pie_> but im going to try anyway
<sphalerite> __monty__: just a subdirectory of a zfs filesystem, from the past few hours, containing a small amount of code :)
<__monty__> pie_: Can't you do something like lz4 -x .mozilla/**.jsonlz4 unpackdir/
<__monty__> Or something similar?
<pie_> __monty__, well if i had the files i probably could
<__monty__> That's what the ** is for. I doubt firefox ever saves things outside of your profile?
<__monty__> Maybe you were looking in the wrong profile?
<pie_> i only have one profile
<pie_> and by missing the files i mean im pretty sure firefox deleted them
<pie_> unless i did that myself blindly somehow
<__monty__> Did you quit and reopen firefox? That might do it.
<pie_> __monty__, usually about:sessionrestore works
<pie_> if nothing else
<pie_> and i think plasma crashed and i logged in again
<aminechikhaoui> Hey everybody, anybody using gnu pass on their mobile phones ? is it even a good idea
<tilpner> aminechikhaoui: Yes, works great
<tilpner> Oh, wait
<__monty__> pie_: Yes, after a crash that should work but after a proper exit it (used to) not.
<tilpner> Do you mean https://www.passwordstore.org/ ?
<aminechikhaoui> yes
<infinisil> aminechikhaoui: Huh, I'm pretty sure pass has nothing to do with GNU
<tilpner> I wouldn't call that GNU pass
* pie_ flails helplessly at monsieurp
<pie_> * __monty__
<aminechikhaoui> oh
<pie_> sorry monsieurp :p
<infinisil> (well I guess it uses gnupg underneath, but it's not a GNU project)
<aminechikhaoui> yeah I somehow thought it was gnu pass :D
<tilpner> aminechikhaoui: Yes, and OpenKeychain
<tilpner> Although I haven't found a good way to restrict the phone from viewing certain passwords
<aminechikhaoui> not sure how does that work, I guess nothing is stored in the external storage right ?
<tilpner> I know it can be done, and how, but not how to do that declaratively
<monsieurp> :(
<eyJhb> Btw. if anybody ever wondered, the limit on FB messages is ~3.000 chars
<eyJhb> pie_ still having trouble with FF?
<monsieurp> FB?
<eyJhb> Facebook
<eyJhb> Messenger*?
<pie_> eyjhb, its not a "still" its a "well there goes all my thousands of tabs again"
<monsieurp> are there people still using FB even after the shitstorm of privacy scandals the company went through?
<monsieurp> interesting
<pie_> monsieurp, most of society you know...doesnt care
<pie_> or at leas thtats the feeling i get
<pie_> not very optimism inducing
<monsieurp> pie_: indeed you are right
<monsieurp> pie_: though I thought I was talking to concerned citizens
<monsieurp> and informed ;)
<pie_> though i _understand_ why it would be hard to see the power technology yields for people who arent engineers (?)
<pie_> monsieurp, ummm....inertia?
<monsieurp> what do you mean?
<pie_> some people use facebook so thats what you gotta use to message them
<__monty__> Just because a service isn't private (did anyone really expect it to be?) doesn't mean it can't be leverage.
<__monty__> *leveraged.
* pie_ still waiting for a p2p instant messenger that isnt garbage
<__monty__> People have useful conversations in public places all the time.
<monsieurp> pie_: thing is... do we really need to be connected and message each others all the time?
<monsieurp> it sure is nice
<eyJhb> monsieurp: I think it will be quite hard, to get the person I am writing with, to use anything else. But she does study computer science, so maybe I could get her on IRC!
<joepie91> pie_: strictly P2P, or is federated sufficient?
<__monty__> eyjhb: IRC is a big shift though. A lot less codly UX.
<eyJhb> __monty__ I love my IRC and bitlbee
<eyJhb> Only thing is, I can have so much active stuff, that it starts to stress me.
<monsieurp> eyjhb: mankind managed just fine before the rise of Internet :D there's no actual difficulty in using another mean of communication than FB, if you think about it deeply, we just "make it up" (the difficulty)
<pie_> joepie91, p2p + e2e + xyx + zyz + etc
<pie_> :p
<__monty__> Me too but IRC isn't exactly an easy sell to spoiled people. No persistent conversations/chat history. You have to learn about servers and channels and nicks and nickserv and sasl/ssl, not to mention irc clients. For us terminal denizens they're great but most GUI irc clients look like someone travelled back in time for UI inspiration.
<eyJhb> monsieurp: well, don't get me wrong, I would much rather just be with people and talk
<joepie91> pie_: right, but does it actually need to be completely P2P/decentralized, without any servers whatsoever, or is it good enough for it to just not be centralized around one controlling organization?
<eyJhb> But that can't always be the case. And I don't think smoke signals or snailmail works that well
<pie_> joepie91, ok tbh good question idk
<monsieurp> telegraphy!
<joepie91> pie_: because if not, Matrix is a very likely candidate
<joepie91> for what you want
<pie_> joepie91, i guess who runs the infrastructure doesnt matter as long as you can minimize the metadata they get
<pie_> but you probably cant run a business off minimizing metadata
<pie_> or its annoying to
<joepie91> pie_: given that Matrix is a) federated, b) actually being used, c) standardized (although the quality of the standard is still a WIP), and d) specifies E2EE, including for group messaging
<joepie91> downside: feature support in alternative clients is currently lacking, and the reference client is a bit iffy at times, but overall the UX is already pretty decent
<joepie91> another downside: current reference homeserver implementation is horrendously slow :)
<joepie91> (where 'homeserver' == the server that your account lives on)
<eyJhb> monsieurp: I will suggest it! But I don't think she would go for it! But basically just waiting to see each other again. There is a reason I found the max limit of messages on Messenger.....
<__monty__> Here's the ones I know/trust for E2E: signal, wire, tox, matrix.
<monsieurp> anyway... we veered off topic ;) my point is that we shouldn't rely on a corporation such as FB for communications, which btw has a track record of bending the law to its will
<Ralith> matrix is certainly promising
<joepie91> monsieurp: I suspect you're preaching to the choir here :D
<monsieurp> joepie91: hopefully!
<pie_> __monty__, was talking with a friend and he got me paranoid on some of the signal engineering quality being really shabby
<eyJhb> monsieurp: agreed. But what about e.g. slack and discord then?
<joepie91> but yeah, 'promising' is the right term for Matrix imo
<simpson> monsieurp: You're literally on IRC, in a Free Software channel, talking to people who write code. I think that you might have not found the right audience for this missive.
<__monty__> monsieurp: You're more likely than not relying on a big company to talk to us rn though : >
<joepie91> still plenty of rough edges, but the right attitude/goals are definitely there
<monsieurp> eyjhb: uh slack? don't get me started ;)
<__monty__> pie_: How much of an expert are they? Afaik signal has had 3rd party audits? Also, afaik, most/all e2e protocols are based on the axolotl ratchet? That's still a huge deal even if the original software sucks : )
<monsieurp> simpson: what do you mean? I'm not sure I got you right
<joepie91> I have no thoughts on the engineering quality of Signal as an application, but the cryptographic protocols are pretty widely recognized as solid and 'the right choice in 2019'
<__monty__> I think matrix came up with novel solutions to e2e group chats? But yeah, I think it's fair to say signal's axolotl is state of the art.
<monsieurp> quick survey: does someone use Gmail here? if you don't, which email provider do you use instead?
<__monty__> I do but I also use rackspace.
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<joepie91> monsieurp: yes, I do, but I treat it as untrusted
<pie_> __monty__, the protocol is probably great, its the other stuff
<monsieurp> I don't
<__monty__> pie_: But in cryptography the protocol is the most important part.
<joepie91> __monty__: megolm has a few deviations from Signal's protocol, but is otherwise based on it; iirc it was a matter of tradeoffs rather than stricft improvements though
<joepie91> conceptually, I count megolm as 'signal protocol'
<pie_> __monty__, something something metadata, something something doesnt matter if your client keeps getting pwned
<pie_> ++ <joepie91> I have no thoughts on the engineering quality of Signal as an application, but the cryptographic protocols are pretty widely recognized as solid and 'the right choice in 2019'
<monsieurp> I moved all my emails off of Google about 2 years ago... to a Posteo account
<monsieurp> never looked back :)
<__monty__> joepie91: Yeah, may have described it wrong. Still the most significant variation of the original protocols I know of.
<joepie91> right
<__monty__> I use gmail as billing address for the rackspace hosting : )
<pie_> hi my entire stack is shit :p
<pie_> (im working on it....sloooowly....)
<joepie91> isn't everybody's
<joepie91> lol
<Ralith> I like fastmail fine
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<pie_> my life would really be so much better if i didnt have to constantly worrying about disk failure or firefox going amnesiac ...backups pls
<pie_> the upside of systems that fail constantly is you adapt
<pie_> the downside of systems that fail intermittently is you tell yourself itll be fine
<joepie91> pie_: anyway, if you decide to try Matrix (or you already use it), ping me at @joepie91:alternanet.fr
<pie_> someone told me xmpp is also decent, but most of the desktop clients are horrible, but idk, never used it
<joepie91> pie_: XMPP is 'decent' in the sense that the spec technically does what it says it does
<joepie91> I have never seen a single XMPP client that I didn't hate, things like message persistence and E2EE were tacked on afterwards
<joepie91> and it's an absolute mess of XML and extension specs
<joepie91> the #1 reason that Matrix beats XMPP here is that unlike XMPP, which is designed as a message transport, Matrix is designed as a distributed and federated eventually-consistent data store that happens to be very suitable for messages
<joepie91> this solves surprisingly many issues
<joepie91> and it's consequently much, much easier to support the "persistent presence and message history" usecase
<joepie91> result: clients that, aside from a litany of other issues, Just Work on this point
<joepie91> can XMPP work? yes. does it have a future? IMO, no.
<joepie91> or at least not as a messaging platform.
<pie_> joepie91, makes sense and thats what id have hoped someone does
<pie_> re: etc etc data store
<joepie91> right
<joepie91> well, you're in luck then :D
<__monty__> Wouldn't matrix over xmpp work?
<joepie91> sure, if you treat it as a dumb pipe
<joepie91> matrix can, in principle, be tunneled over whatever
<joepie91> (but right now everybody uses HTTP + JSON)
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<__monty__> Isn't http basically never an efficient transport?
<joepie91> not sure what you're basing that on
<__monty__> The large headers and tcp.
<__monty__> Or is matrix limited to text?
<joepie91> that doesn't automatically make it not-efficient
<joepie91> and what does 'limited to text' have to do with it?
<__monty__> Just that tcp is horribly inefficient when you don't necessarily need all the data.
<__monty__> Like for voice or video chat.
<pie_> how do i glob expand dot files and dot folders with ./.* but not ./. and ./..
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<joepie91> __monty__: oh, in that sense. the HTTP+JSON transport is used for text messages, control messages, file uploads, etc. - but voice and video chat use webrtc, I believe.
<__monty__> Aren't those automatically excluded by globs?
<__monty__> Ah, ok. Still a lot of header overhead in the http protocol though, no?
<pie_> just used rsync with excludes instead..
<joepie91> __monty__: that's really dependent on how you use it, and on whether you use gzip or not (given that headers compress well)
<joepie91> the Matrix protocol does a fair amount of batching, for example
<joepie91> so it's not a big concern
<__monty__> Still, wouldn't something like 0MQ or protobuf be nicer?
<tilpner> __monty__: HTTP+JSON has the advantage that it's supported everywhere
<joepie91> ^
<tilpner> I don't think you can do tcp+protobuf from a browser?
<joepie91> you cannot
<__monty__> Currently, or ever?
<pie_> lol every browser would be a network backdoor
<joepie91> likely ever.
<pie_> i think CSRF in a users browser to routers and the like is/was a thing
<pie_> dunno how they mitigated that
<__monty__> Still, a proxy at endpoints seems so much more intellectually elegant.
<joepie91> that's just another moving part for seemingly no reason
<joepie91> not to mention that it adds a point of centralization
<joepie91> (because now that client no longer connects directly to the homeserver, it has to go through a proxy operated by the client's maintainers instead)
<__monty__> Or, maybe webrtc can be leveraged. And I don't see the centralization. People who insist on using a browser as a client can run a little local daemon.
<__monty__> Though I don't see why http is a requirement for having a browser interact with it.
<joepie91> again, this seems to be adding complexity and hurdles to solve a non-existent problem
<__monty__> The problem is the overhead at galaxy scale.
<joepie91> like I said, the overhead isn't a problem.
<__monty__> I'm skeptical but what do I know? Have a good night!
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<ajs124> https://i.imgur.com/DoIsZ6i.png should I buy more RAM?
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<samueldr> depends on if this is your typical use case :)
<ajs124> I don't tend to evaluate this file on this machine too ofter. I think I'll order some soon, anyways.
<gchristensen> why buy when you can downloadmoreram.com
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<infinisil> Deserved!
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<Shados> ivan: In my experience, that was only really applicable for the first few years of SSDs being commercially available. We have a few hundred machines using SSD mirrors at work, and the wear levelling stats are a very good indicator of when they'll drop into read-only. We also don't see them failing much for any other reasons.
<gchristensen> I had some more recent experience with problems with Virident / HGST SSDs suddenly dying, but I ran those disks hard