gchristensen changed the topic of #nixos-chat to: NixOS but much less topical || https://logs.nix.samueldr.com/nixos-chat
<Arahael> Hopefully that might finally allow nix!
<pie_> technically i think nix already works on wsl
<drakonis_> its linux on hyperv
<drakonis_> this is us now
<pie_> yeah but we gotta be better
<drakonis_> now, regarding nix adoption, the outlook seems bright
<drakonis_> now that it is available on its full form under windows
<drakonis_> getting it into the windows store will be good
<pie_> x'D
<Arahael> pie_: Wasn't there issues regarding sqlite?
<pie_> huh maybe
<Arahael> It would otherwise have been an ideal "nix on windows" target, imho.
<drakonis_> there's some whispering regarding the market looking at NixOS now
<drakonis_> arahael: its a linux vm now, so it is an ideal target now
<pie_> whispering?
<drakonis_> hearsay
* pie_ crashes
<drakonis_> nix and things alike are the new main distros for deployments
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<drakonis_> this is the hearsay
<drakonis_> how's commercial support for it?
<drakonis_> if there's any
<Arahael> There still seems to be a lot of competing solutions there, imho - appimage, snap, flatpak...
<drakonis_> s/nix/nixos
<drakonis_> nix does compete with these package managers
<Arahael> Personally, I feel that nix and flatpak compliment each other nicely.
<drakonis_> nixos competes with what though?
<Arahael> nixos itself competes with docker, maybe.
<Arahael> PErsonally I like it for the build tooling, so for me, the best thing about nixos is nix.
<Arahael> (Even though I'm still very new to it)
<Arahael> I love being able to have a controlled build for a given project.
<Arahael> (This is why people have been moving to docker: Can bring up an image, do the build, and that's the controlled environment - nix competes with that, imho)
<drakonis_> if nix winds up in a major conference
<drakonis_> maybe it can acquire more momentum
<drakonis_> doesnt have a lot of conference presence outside of nixcon and smaller ones
<drakonis_> does fosdem as a major one?
<drakonis_> count as a major con other than being a foss mecca?
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<tilpner> During a force push to a GitHub wiki it tells you that the repo moved to the main repo, implying you should force-push the wiki to the code repo
<tilpner> There's no way that could go wrong, right?
<monsieurp> tilpner: keep a local copy of the repo in case the SHTF :)
<tilpner> Oh, I don't intend to
<tilpner> But I can imagine how that server-side notice might mislead someone
<tilpner> "But git told me to do that..."
<tilpner> And they wouldn't even be wrong
<qyliss^work> lol
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<pie___> file a bug against github?
<pie___> ekleog, re: https://github.com/NixOS/nix/pull/2792#issuecomment-490053575 how does one balance bikeshedding with the core group of people actually (?) pushing development?
<pie___> honest question
<pie___> not quite how i meant to phrase it but maybe you get what im going for
<pie___> something like when is discussion actually necessary
<ekleog> pie___: I think when the change cannot be undone is when RFCs should be used
<pie___> fwiw that specific issue had https://github.com/NixOS/nix/issues/1835 open for a while with no objections
<{^_^}> nix#1835 (by chris-martin, 1 year ago, closed): builtins.hashFile
<ekleog> here, removing builtins.hashFile will be a backwards-incompatible change
<pie___> ofc there are a lot of issues so im not saying that meant its fine
<pie___> ekleog, that makes sense i guess
<ekleog> now I agree that this particular example would likely have passed without issue
<ekleog> but maybe I'm missing something too
<pie___> in terms of design by comittee, haskell seems to have done ok for itself
<ekleog> I would like to argue that the nix language is currently not the best proof of great design :p
<pie___> but i dont know much about that, probably had a lot of its own pain points
<Taneb> Haskell was designed by a small committee of people who knew what they were talking about
<pie___> ekleog, yeah we touched on that discussion a while ago
<pie___> Taneb, makes sense
<ekleog> language design is a hard job
<Taneb> Most of them were researchers in programming language design
<Taneb> And they had anti-bikeshed mechanisms
<pie___> id be curious about that latter point
<simpson> But they still ended up getting : and :: backwards~ Designing a language is hard, and adding more people doesn't really help.
<pie___> dunno what one can do about the former other than offload to language design experts or become one :P
<gchristensen> and there is some history of changes to the Nix language which would have seriously benefited from some RFC
<Taneb> Each session they appointed a "tsar" whose job it was to stop discussion when it was clear it wasn't being productive due to bikeshedding
<simpson> OTOH bringing in a couple folks from the laity, explaining the concepts, and then getting their non-binding opinions, has worked *very* well for some stuff I've done.
<pie___> (sidenote: my experience with the FP community has been extremely positive and im like ????)
<Taneb> simpson: I think : and :: were the right way round *at the time*, especially as type inference was a major selling point. The idea was, you'd never have to write a type signature, and lists are so useful!
<pie___> Taneb, that sounds like it makes sense, especially if you have someone thats a decent moderator
<Taneb> And then the culture gradually changed
<simpson> Taneb: Oh, sure. I think that, to today's POV, it's hard not to see Haskell as a very rebellious misfit ML, and stuff like :: is part of what makes it seem so intentionally gawky.
<simpson> More pointedly, if there were going to be a dialect of ML suitable for writing neutral portable algorithms in a foundational way, then Haskell is probably not it. It's nice that we have Haskell as a dialect for academic papers, though.
<pie___> i forgot what eelco's irc nick is, but shouldnt he be in nix-lang? :P
<pie___> simpson, huh
<simpson> pie___: Compare and contrast http://www.gilith.com/opentheory/
<pie___> I actually havent touched ML yet, most of the people I know prefer haskell i think
<pie___> well i went to a mirageOS tutorial but thats not an ml intro :p
<pie___> simpson, i think i looked at that a few times after thinking "gee if only we could have FFI for proofs across systems"
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<gchristensen> pie___: niksnut
<pie___> ugh my bucket list hurts
<gchristensen> his availability is very spotty though
<pie___> makes sense, he's getting work done? ;P
<simpson> pie___: Writing a VM sounds like an easy way to port it.
<ekleog> pie___: there's a paper about that
<ekleog> unfortunately I've read it before starting to keep a list of them
<ekleog> so I don't have the name any longer :(
<pie___> i usually get recommended Amal Ahmed (i think?)
<pie___> but that stuff is waaaay over my head
<pie___> i saw something for idris the other day but idk where i put the link
<pie___> simpson, vm?
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<pie___> you mean like uhh ?bisimulation? for proofs? *shrug* i'unno
<simpson> pie___: Like a virtual machine: http://www.gilith.com/opentheory/article.html
<simpson> "When the virtual machine has finished processing all the lines in the article file, the assumptions and theorems are the result of reading the article (the stack and dictionary are discarded). Successfully reading an article proves that the theorems Δ derive from the assumptions Γ in higher order logic, which we write as the theory Γ ⊳ Δ."
<pie___> huh.
<pie___> bukeshedding -> haskell -> proof system ffi xD
<pie___> anyway back to work o/
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<Synthetica> Open source etiquette question: is it commonly accepted to ask for a new release when there is a feature in master (but in no release) that you'd like to use?
<qyliss> That's fine, unless there's clearly other things blocking a release that are in the process of being solved.
<gchristensen> or a clearly defined release schedule
<Synthetica> Thanks :)
<etu> Synthetica: Just be polite and not demanding :)
<joepie91> Synthetica: I usually post something along the lines of "Hi, are there any plans on when this will land in a release? I'm stuck on <X> so it'd be useful to have this available."
<joepie91> so far I've always gotten positive responses to that
<joepie91> and it doesn't imply that the maintainer is slacking, while still signalling that a release would be appreciated and why
<joepie91> (also means that if there /is/ a blocker for release that you hadn't found out about yet, you'll probably be told about it)
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<joepie91> "So AMD CPUs implement an RDRAND operation that doesn't actually return randomness (after your first suspend/resume cycle that is)."
<pie___> doh
<ar> hm
<pie___> amd was doing so good too recently (?)
<joepie91> yeah..
<pie___> i like cheering for the underdog a bit :P
<ar> pie___: that's an old cpu; basically one of the bulldozers
<ar> hm. "systemctl suspend" → resume → "systemctl suspend" again → resume should be enough of a test, right?
<joepie91> I'm pretty sure I'm on a bulldozer...
<pie___> ok so maybe that tweet is a bit too vague but still
<pie___> its the entropy generation 70% of the time every time
<joepie91> lol
<samueldr> perfect speedrunner strats: sleep pc twice to control RNG
<gchristensen> everything is broken. everbody is doing good and bad work all the time
<Synthetica> Who would've thought Gameboy-era strats would be usable on modern pc's
<samueldr> "modern PCs" :)
<joepie91> this seems like the kind of fuckup that shouldn't have passed QA though
<ar> if the above is a good enough test, Zen is unaffected
<joepie91> it's in an explicitly security-critical part of the CPU
<gchristensen> even QA
<pie___> need more formal methods
<pie___> just dont put out any new cpus for a few years or something :p
<gchristensen> processor design companies use loads of formal methods
<pie___> i think dan luu's blog? or someone, was saying how the intel formal methods team got progressively worse or something
<pie___> worse/worsed
<pie___> gchristensen, which is probably why things work as good as they even do? :D
<gchristensen> yes
<joepie91> pie___: hello, fellow dan luu reader
<gchristensen> every screwup is an opportunity to improve
<joepie91> pie___: I am increasingly beginning to wonder whether you are me
<gchristensen> there will always be more screwups to learn from, even incredibly embarrassing ones
<pie___> joepie91, kind of. i really need to put together some kind of information aggregtoin thigny so i dont nee dto remember to check thigns
<pie___> joepie91, lol im glad someone at least kind of gets me
<pie___> gchristensen, you live, and hopefully learn
<joepie91> pie___: I think that's called RSS :D
<pie___> the problem is i forget things ive learned pretty easily
<pie___> joepie91, something something twitter something something no rss
<joepie91> pie___: though don't worry, because Dan hasn't published anything for a long time... :(
<joepie91> oh yeah, I mean for the blogs
<pie___> something something reddit rss is garbage
<pie___> because it just links back with no content
<pie___> nevermind i should be working xD
<joepie91> pie___: once again, are you me :P
* joepie91 also should be working
<pie___> lol lib.fetchgit uses nix-prefetch-git
<pie___> that actually makes so much sense xD
<gchristensen> hmm fetchgit isn't actually inside lib is it?
<pie___> oh i didnt know you can omit rev to get HEAD
<pie___> theres a builtins gfetchgit and a lib one
<pie___> well maybe lib is with a big G
<gchristensen> lib should not contain a fetchgit, unless it is the builtin fetchgit
<qyliss^work> builtins is big G I think
<qyliss^work> and the other should be in pkgs, not lib
<pie___> right that
<qyliss^work> > builtins.fetchGit
<{^_^}> <PRIMOP>
<qyliss^work> > lib.fetchgit
<{^_^}> attribute 'fetchgit' missing, at (string):253:1
<gchristensen> ah, ok, yeah that one is pkgs.fetchgit :)
<qyliss^work> > lib.fetchGit
<pie___> my bad
<{^_^}> attribute 'fetchGit' missing, at (string):253:1
<qyliss^work> > pkgs.fetchgit
<{^_^}> { __functor = <CODE>; override = <CODE>; overrideDerivation = <CODE>; }
<gchristensen> no worries, just wanted to make sure there wasn't accidental cross-polination pkgs -> lib
<Taneb> No-one ever accused nixpkgs of being consistent
<pie___> Taneb, hard cringe
<pie___> ;~;
<gchristensen> anyone know how nodejs on arduinos deal with volatile variables? ie, reading pins etc.?
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<gchristensen> colemickens: you have the problem of alt-«number» keys not working in FF right?
<pie___> gchristensen, anything ever happen with the weekly call btw
<gchristensen> yeah, I've put together a good bit of planning with worldofpeace
<pie___> ah ok
* pie___ waits patiently
<gchristensen> looking to schedule it for hopefully next week
<gchristensen> last week was extremely swamped, so I wasn't able to work on it
<sphalerite> gchristensen: just pinged fpletz about the website copyright thing, he'll do it soon
<gchristensen> cool
<gchristensen> finally looked in to why my compose key on the right alt doesn't work ... I don't have one!
<pie___> :D D:
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<pie___> there isnt a way to get a non-fixed-output derivation with network access right?
<pie___> i wouldnt mind one right now even if its not technically deterministic
<pie___> wait but it should be
<pie___> i guess i want to write my own fixed output derivation
<infinisil> pie___: turning off the sandbox :)
<pie___> infinisil, meh :P
<pie___> actually, i guess i dont get it. we have nondeterministic builds anyway
<pie___> infinisil, thats like a shotgun, i still want filesystem sandboxing for example
<infinisil> Ah I think you can use allowed-uris
<infinisil> man nix.conf
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<qyliss> pie___: we have deterministic inputs though
<pie___> qyliss, basically im trying to script the bootstrap step of this https://github.com/kamilchm/go2nix/issues which uses "go get" to get dependencies
<pie___> qyliss, i guess this could be a "fixed" input, dunno how to do that thgouh
<qyliss> I don't either
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<pie___> i guess id use it as a buildinput to building the proper derivation with the generated lock file from this bootstrap phase
<pie___> which i think does make some sense
<manveru> pie___: why not vgo?
<manveru> and your name keeps getting longer i think
<pie___> manveru, dunno, i got recommended this and the readme says use the other ones if they use some other go things that i dont think were used for this repo
<manveru> that's the new go standard anyway
<manveru> i used go2nix and dep2nix and vgo2nix :)
<manveru> if you have the chance to build with a recent go version, i'd recommend it
<pie___> ok thanks
<pie___> ill look into switching
<pie___> itll work with stuff that doesnt "use dep or modules" as well?
<infinisil> Ehh, there's buildGoModule in nixpkgs now, which doesn't need any extra ./deps file anymore
<manveru> infinisil: but that depends on vgo
<manveru> it uses its lockfile anyway
<manveru> maybe i better call it go modules now
<infinisil> Ah yeah, but if you can use these go modules, then you can just use buildGoModule instead of vgo2nix (I think)
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<manveru> jup
<manveru> i forgot about it ^^;
<pie___> so...i dont know how any of this go stuff works, is vgo backwards compatible? :P
<pie___> manveru, doesnt vgo2nix only work if i have a go.mod
<manveru> but yeah, if there's no go.mod, i don't think buildGoModule or vgo2nix will work without some setup
<pie___> qyliss, well i guess that basically says what i was thinking of "intermediate fetcher derivation" https://nixos.org/nixpkgs/manual/#ssec-go-modules
<pie___> bbl
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<adisbladis> infinisil: Good reminder.. I should add a mention of `buildGoModule` to the vgo2nix readme
<adisbladis> pie___: Anyway, I'd say go2nix is harder to use than creating a go.mod/go.sum and running vgo2nix. You could just `go mod init && vgo2nix`
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<eyJhb> Do needs to get their shit together....
<eyJhb> Digitalocean**
<__monty__> Unstable servers or politics?
<eyJhb> Unstable servers, the API is currently hitting the bricks
<eyJhb> Doesn't work 75% of the time
<__monty__> That's a lot of percent.
<eyJhb> So what I am currently doing might or might not work :D :D :D
<eyJhb> And services are being created by timeouts and 503s
<gchristensen> "why the hell does r13y.com fail every day, after exactly 50 minutes?" start time: 7:55. nix.gc's scheduled run time: 8:44
<joepie91> gchristensen: well, it does fail reproducibly...
<joepie91> :)
<gchristensen> :D
<joepie91> gchristensen: you should add that to the site as a badge of honor - "When this site broke, it was 100% reproducible!"
<gchristensen> hehe
<gchristensen> 2 possible fixes. 1: make all the drv's be GC-rooted. 2. bump it forward 1hr.
<tilpner> Only 1. is a proper solution ._.
<gchristensen> indeed it is true
<averell> is the gc too resource intensive or why?
<tilpner> gchristensen: Although... can you even root the --check output?
<gchristensen> I'm actually not sure, there might still be a race of the DRVs being written to disk and the r13y runner pinning them
<gchristensen> oh hello
<gchristensen> https://buildkite.com/grahamc/r13y-dot-com anyway you'll notice I took the less nice option
<samueldr> collect before running?
<gchristensen> I just changed the schedule to run ~now instead of before the GC
<tilpner> You can probably tell systemd to run it after nix-gc.service
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<gchristensen> the scheduler is buildkite not systemd
<gchristensen> it is interesting to me that a $170 CPU today buys essentially the same $170 CPU from like 10yrs ago -- a 6 cores and 3.4ghz
<gchristensen> what am I missing?
<joepie91> gchristensen: hold on
<samueldr> process changes, new instructions, mainly?
<joepie91> gchristensen: this addresses that question, if I recall correctly: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f-4hxNKvEY0
<joepie91> been a while since I've watched it though
<joepie91> so I may be misremembering
<cransom> lots of hardware extensions that they don't talk about. like try decoding h265 video on those different cpus.
<gchristensen> hmm yeah fair
<simpson> gchristensen: Intel whiffed several times on understanding that maybe clock-speed competition is not as good as parallelism. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Larrabee_(microarchitecture) in particular.
<cransom> the imac i had, which was a 4 core.. i7 4970k? i think, it encoded h265 like it was a slide show. the cpu that i have currently does it realtime and faster and i think the 4970k was higher in clock speed
<simpson> We aren't in the timeline where one can buy a GPCPU card full of hundreds of lightweight x86-like cores.
* gchristensen eyes his stack of k80s
<infinisil> cransom: Whoa, encoding h265 in realtime..
<cransom> oh, i forgot my acronyms. it's hevc rather.
<samueldr> well, there is that one gpu thing that never lifted off from intel which was a bajillion of atom like cores
<__monty__> There's no difference between x265 and hevc, is there?
<gchristensen> anyway, it is boring looking at replacing my home system where I run r13y and other experiments and seeing that the same money from 2011 getting the same thing, ~$90 for 16gb ram, ~$170 for a 3.4ghz-6core cpu, etc. the only difference being that I spent $70 on a 30GB SSD at the time and now that would be much larger.
<sphalerite> samueldr: that sounds like Larrabee, which simpson linked
<samueldr> oh, it is
<sphalerite> gchristensen: it should still be much faster :)
<samueldr> I was searching online for what I seem to recall being able to ssh in and using top
<gchristensen> memory speed is definitely improved and maybe cache is better -- https://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16819103913
<samueldr> "Corn Electronics" hmmm
<cransom> __monty__: i can't remember. isn't one a container and the other a codec? maybe not.
<sphalerite> "High Efficiency Video Coding (HEVC), also known as H.265 and MPEG-H Part 2, is a video compression standard, designed as a successor to the widely used AVC (H.264 or MPEG-4 Part 10)."
<__monty__> And x265 is an open source implementation, no?
<__monty__> Thought it was Cod*ec* rather than Coding though.
<sphalerite> I'd consider a codec a (full) implementation of a coding
<sphalerite> like LAME is an encoder for the MP3 coding?
<sphalerite> That's my gut-feel interpretation of the terminology
<sphalerite> (since "codec" is COder and DECoder)
* simpson wonders when "serde" will stop being Rust-specific and start having the same usage as "codec"
<sphalerite> my guess is never, because it doesn't have a convenient and pleasant english pronunciation :p
<sphalerite> s/convenient/obvious/
<gchristensen> how do you say it? :)
<gchristensen> I say it as in "absurd"
<sphalerite> I've never got into a situation where I've had to say it :D
<simpson> "sehr-dee", from "serialize/deserialize". Same idea as "codec".
<gchristensen> I'm going to stick to absurd
<__monty__> Definitely gonna steal that idea if I ever have to write a serialization library, abserde.
<gchristensen> lol
<samueldr> simpson: I've seen serde being used in (IIRC) PCIe or something hardwarey
<gchristensen> nice
<infinisil> "decco" would also be a fitting name
<__monty__> Oh, that's another possibility "ArtDecco".
<__monty__> RDecco.
<gchristensen> decor
<sphalerite> encodec
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<lopsided98> serdes is a thing, it just usually refers to hardware: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SerDes
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<infinisil> Because all other channels are busy right now, I'll say it here
<infinisil> Idea: Have multiple levels of staging
<infinisil> Like, staging-1 staging-2 and staging-3
<infinisil> The lower the level, the lower the rebuild count, the faster it gets merged back into master
<infinisil> The higher the level, the higher the rebuild count, the less updates go to it
<infinisil> Actually, it might make sense that all of them get merged into master in about the same intervals
<infinisil> How about that!
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<sphalerite> that does not sound fun
<infinisil> sphalerite: Why not?
<sphalerite> idk, we already have master for low rebuild counts?
<sphalerite> and that would mean having to decide which staging branch to start from and which to target in a PR, and would be a pain
<sphalerite> we already have staging and staging-next, the purpose of which is still unclear to me (do we have docs for that?)
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<samueldr> staging-next is the iteration that "next is going to master"
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<infinisil> sphalerite: Currently we (or I at least) often have problems deciding whether a pr should go to staging or not
<infinisil> When it has 500+ rebuild counts, mabye 1000-2000
<infinisil> It's not an stdenv change which would be ~20000 rebuilds, but it's still a big number
<infinisil> Having multiple levels of staging for this would make a lot of sense, and would also delay staging less in general
<qyliss> Having four different possible targets though would make it even more difficult to decide where to put it
<infinisil> qyliss: Ah I forgot to mention
<infinisil> ofborg could automatically decide on the correct branch
<qyliss> after making the PR?
<infinisil> Heh yeah I guess that's a bit of a nuisance
<qyliss> that's just going to increase the number of bogus review requests I get from rebases
<infinisil> Maybe it could be part of nix-review
<qyliss> (which is severely disruptive even at current levels)
<infinisil> If the interval of staging being merged into master is decreased, maybe not as much anymore!
<infinisil> I'm not a staging expert right now, but I think staging is a bit of a problem right now because it's so hard and slow to get back into master
<infinisil> (that last sentence could have been interpreted to mean something a lot different wow)
<qyliss> I guess we should really ask the people who actually do the staging -> master merges
<infinisil> Yeah probably
<infinisil> But I like this idea
<infinisil> If the UX problems around it could be solved, it might just work pretty well
<qyliss> If the current flow is causing significant pain to the staging mergers, we should change it
<qyliss> If not, then we shouldn't
<qyliss> I pretty much treat staging as a black box that I put things and then /at some point/ they'll be available in master
<qyliss> So I don't think I'm qualified to have an opinion
<infinisil> Yeah same..
<infinisil> Maybe we could automate it
<infinisil> Does hydra have an api?
<infinisil> Would be pretty neat
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