gchristensen changed the topic of #nixos-chat to: NixOS but much less topical || https://logs.nix.samueldr.com/nixos-chat
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<pie__> gchristensen, jfc the first two paragraphs xD
<Church-> gchristensen: The things you share on lobste.rs makes me sad :(
<Church-> That was an awful, awful thing you shared
<pie__> cant decide whether to link this in the mirageos channel but i think im going to wish me luck
<Church-> Well I take that back given I read more then the title now.
<gchristensen> Church-: it is so good, and so horrible
<Church-> gchristensen: See from the title I thought it was tcp over actualy streaming logs, being read in via like cat or something :P
<gchristensen> :D
<Church-> The article is still bad but less bad
<Church-> heh
<Church-> gchristensen: More funny stuff I just ran into my predecessor in my current position on lobsters
<Church-> Small world lol
<gchristensen> nice
<Church-> The guy had a really distinctive name apparently
<Church-> Ahhh I regret not taking a shower
<gchristensen> hah
<Church-> My roomate just grabbed the bathroom
<Church-> Now the floor is going to be soaked. Sigh.
<pie__> holding the bathroom in the palm of his hadn
<gchristensen> :| roommates
<gchristensen> heading out for the night. good luck, Church-
<Church-> Later
<Church-> Sup pie__
<pie__> also trying to get myself to go to be
<pie__> d
<Church-> heh
<Church-> Just finishing my hw for the CTO to check
* Church- is back in grade school
* Church- will take a free C course from a BSD kernel developer however
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<drakonis1> ho ho
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<drakonis1> Church-: does the kernel dev actually upstream anything?
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<Church-> Yes
<aanderse> infinisil: thanks for znc suggestion, looks like it works now :-D
<drakonis1> huh, neat.
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<Shados> Huh, F5 bought NGINX
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<sphalerite> random thought: why do we even have uppercase/lowercase letters?
<gchristensen> mostly becaus ethe big letters were held in the top (upper) case and the little ones were in the bottom (lower) case
<gchristensen> specifically, the sorts were
<gchristensen> (have you ever been out of sorts?)
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<gchristensen> here comes my favorite conference talk of all time ... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JOM5_V5jLAs
<pie__> huh that makes too much sense
<__monty__> What's it about gchristensen?
<gchristensen> your future
<gchristensen> with a detour in letters, sorts, upper and lower cases, etc.
<__monty__> Does it apply if I'm not a rubyist?
<gchristensen> yes
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<sphalerite> gchristensen: I mean why we have two versions of every letter, not why they're named uppercase and lowercase :p
<gchristensen> oh, well, watch the talk anyway :P
<jasongrossman> I asked my wife why we have upper- and lower-case letters. She's a linguist who knows everything about language.
<jasongrossman> She doesn't know.
<__monty__> Does it maybe come from the fancy letters at the start of chapters?
<gchristensen> if I had to guess it is an affordance so it is easier to differentiate
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<jasongrossman> It's very old ... I'm not sure whether it's older than manuscripts.
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<infinisil> Idea: In NixOS-land we can do fancy rollbacks, but these only work if you didn't change things like the filesystem inbetween. So how about we split generations into two: One generation timeline for the hardware-independent config, and one for the hardware-dependent one. Then you could rollback each of them separately
<infinisil> Probably can't do because those parts are interdependent..
<joepie91> gchristensen: excellent talk
<manveru> gchristensen: thanks man, i watched this years ago, totally forgot about it :)
<gchristensen> :)
<pie__> its nice when people have separated utilitiy functions and stuff, but then its not separated enough that if it doesnt do exactly what you need such that to override you dont have to override a huge blob of text :( https://github.com/NixOS/nixpkgs/blob/7495a761cce4cc34cd26ec19150ed4a196ca6d24/pkgs/development/go-modules/generic/default.nix#L111
<pie__> uh i might have butchered that sentence
<pie__> tl;dr: code separated into pieces is nice, now if only it was possible to override individual pieces
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<zimbatm> yorick: how much time did you spend on this already?
<yorick> zimbatm: time tracker is currently at 1 month fulltime
<zimbatm> roberth should be working on tree-sitter-nix binding for Haskell as we speak
<zimbatm> oh wow
<yorick> it does all of nixpkgs in 20s
<yorick> (given 4 cores)
<zimbatm> I suppose your design means that the formatter is also enforcing line lenghts isn't it?
<yorick> yes, that's the only parameter
<yorick> (but that means you can do real-time nix reflow :D)
<zimbatm> heh :)
<yorick> I'm currently compiling ghcjs for a web demo
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<pie__> yorick, what are you working on
<pie__> meanwhile...can i use nix-copy-closure with my current ssh key somehow?
<yorick> pie__: serokell is working on nix formatter
<pie__> or can i somehow pack, transfer, and unpack a derivation ? nix-store --export doesnt look like the right thing
<yorick> pie__: yes use ssh-ng://
<pie__> yorick, aha
<yorick> pie__: um, you can nix copy --to ./asdf, then targz asdf, then untargz it on the other side, then nix copy --from ./asdf
<pie__> ah ok
<pie__> where do i find info about this ssh-ng thing
<yorick> the manual maybe
<yorick> there's a whole line on it SSHStore (ssh-ng://) supports arbitrary Nix operations on a remote machine via the same protocol used by nix-daemon.
<pie__> error: don't know how to open Nix store './plz'
<yorick> file://./plz then
<pie__> ok file:// worked
<pie__> yorick, very verbose. I mean can i just pass -i or something? i dont want to use a .ssh/config
<yorick> pie__: NIX_SSHOPTS="-i keyfilelol" nix copy
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<pie__> oh sweet, didnt think there would be an env var
<pie__> that makes everything so much easier
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<yorick> pie__: fix your signatures or do sudo
<pie__> how do i sudo
<pie__> i mean...locally? that doesnt sound like the right place to sudo
<yorick> pie__: --no-check-sigs as a trusted user
<yorick> or add whatever signed the package as a trusted sig
<pie__> i dont think anything signed the package its just something i built locally and want to get on the other machine
<pie__> ive never done this before
<pie__> yorick, oh you mean use --from with ssh?
<pie__> hmm but that requires me to be able to connect back to this machine and i cant do that
<pie__> unless i do some reverse ssh mess
<pie__> i guess i should add a sig
<yorick> pie__: --to ssh://root@target will work
<pie__> yorick, oh derp. well root login is probably disabled. but i just temporarily disabled signing since its a test machine
<pie__> yorick, while i figure out how to use sigs...
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<__monty__> This looks pretty off topic for an off topic channel.
<gchristensen> hehe
<gchristensen> at some point it does indeed become on-topic for #nixos and off-topic for #nixos-chatn
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<infinisil> Ohhhhh, the next git release will allow submodules to track branches \o/
<etu> oooo
<etu> That's nice!
* etu is spending the evening migrating computers to use tmpfs as / :D
* etu loves nixos
<drakonis> my fresh install defaulted to using tmpfs
<drakonis> for tmp
<drakonis> kind of surprising actually.
<drakonis> etu, how does that even work?
<MichaelRaskin> What's the problem?
<etu> Drakonis: Nix only needs /nix on boot, then most of /etc is set up by scripts on boot anyways
<etu> Drakonis: So what I do is to make sure to have bindmounts and symlinks to persistent storage for things that I want to keep :)
<drakonis> hm, neat.
<etu> Ofc I needed to move the contents out of /nix on my device for that change to work
<MichaelRaskin> We should patch shadow to put passwd/shadow/groups into another place (like /var/shadow)
<etu> MichaelRaskin: you can disable mutable users anyways
<MichaelRaskin> Nope, I don't want _that_
<etu> and force the settings to be in the config :D
* etu does that
<MichaelRaskin> I don't even use NixOS
<etu> on some systems
<MichaelRaskin> And I want mutable users
<MichaelRaskin> And I end up using a horrible crutch to have mutable users and read-only /etc/
<MichaelRaskin> And in NixOS there is an unavoidable non-atomic process of updating /etc when switching the configuration
<etu> MichaelRaskin: "most" things in /etc point at /etc/static, which is a symlink. So most things should be atomic. But not all...
<MichaelRaskin> The things that are not links to /etc/static are _not_ a problem (they are not switched on update)
<MichaelRaskin> The problem is that switch removes/creates links to /etc/static in /etc
<etu> oh
<etu> I thought it built a new path in the store and switched the static symlink
<MichaelRaskin> It does that
<MichaelRaskin> But it _also_ has to update the links into /etc/static
<etu> that makes sense sure...
<etu> So for everything already linked it should be fine
<MichaelRaskin> Well, if you had passwd not in /etc, you wouldn't need all that
<aanderse> etu: that's fun, your tmpfs for / build :)
<etu> aanderse: It's growing on me
<etu> I've been doing it to more and more systems :D
<aanderse> i remember reading a blog post from systemd lennart a few years ago and how he wanted to build toward that sort of system
<aanderse> nixos sure makes it easy eh?
<gchristensen> +1
<drakonis> quite.
<__monty__> Is it just because you all have OCD? : >
<gchristensen> for me, I do it because why have state if I don't need to
<etu> Same here, it's much easier to get an overview of what data is actually stored on disk etc
<etu> if you stop using some software, you can reboot and all traces are gone.
<aanderse> yeah i like the idea of very explicitly stating mutable data
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<pie__> waiting for the day someone says "we have the dependencies, we can rebuild hin
<pie__> *him
<MichaelRaskin> I have a feeling that keep-derivations + keep-outputs means that different versions of curl accumulate
<MichaelRaskin> I also have a feeling that for a set of packages from binary cache the build closure is more than two times larger than runtime closure
<MichaelRaskin> … which makes the accumulation of fetchurls less relevant, of course
<samueldr> we have the dependencies, we can rebuild bin
<gchristensen> samueldr++
<{^_^}> samueldr's karma got increased to 86
<andi-> https://twitter.com/lesliecdubs/status/1126941718123831302 - GitHub supposedly launching a package registry.. whatever that means
<__monty__> Anyone know if there's a name for the hexadecimal floating point notation specified in ieee-754? Does it come from an SI convention or something?
<samueldr> andi-: betting on feature parity with gitlab https://docs.gitlab.com/ee/user/project/packages/npm_registry.html
<andi-> samueldr: might be
<pie__> samueldr, omg, i missed an opportunity there
<samueldr> pie__: yeah :)
<andi-> it pretty much sounds like a registry indeed and probably NPM given all the hype that is (still) going on.
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<samueldr> npm, docker, maven, nuget, ruby gems
<joepie91> so uh... just private registry hosting, then...?
<tilpner> Pfft, not even support for Nix caches c.c
<samueldr> looks like limited to what they implemented as backends, so e.g. no lua rocks
<joepie91> yeah, this looks like private registry hosting
<andi-> soon you wont be able to write programs that require third party libraries without having Microsoft know about it? :-)
<joepie91> hardly
<joepie91> if this is what I think it is, it's basically hosted Verdaccio/Artifactory (from an npm perspective anyway)
<andi-> ofc it isn't enforced but it is super convenient (nothing wrong about that)
<samueldr> and more to the point: feature parity with gitlab
<samueldr> though looks like github's will support more kind of registries
<samueldr> gitlab seems to only have docker, maven and npm
<joepie91> I can't help but feel that this announcement is going to elicit some drama
<joepie91> in the longer term
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<__monty__> Why?
<joepie91> __monty__: because this is quite literally eating npm's business model
<joepie91> I don't imagine that npm inc is going to be very happy about that
<_e> It seems simalar to what aws has done to mongo and elastic search.
<joepie91> and this could well result in an ecosystem breakdown
<__monty__> joepie91: npm doesn't exactly have a respectable track record though. So maybe it's not a big loss?
<joepie91> __monty__: with an ecosystem breakdown I don't mean that npm gets replaced
<joepie91> I mean that shit actually starts breaking
<joepie91> which is definitely worse than the current situation
<joepie91> I might find that an acceptable risk for an overtaking by a community/foundation-led registry
<joepie91> but for moving to another random commercial provider? no thanks
<__monty__> You mean JS disappears off the face of the planet? One can only hope : >
<gchristensen> ouch
<joepie91> welp, guess that marks the end of the conversation.
<gchristensen> not cool, __monty__ :(
<joepie91> would be nice if people could, for once, not do this shit
<__monty__> What's a language joke among friends?
<gchristensen> it is hurtful to be on the receiving end of such a joke
<joepie91> it's really not funny or witty
<joepie91> it's the punchline to every goddamn conversation I try to have about JS outside of JS channels
<joepie91> and I am /really/ tired of it
<joepie91> hundreds have made this 'joke' before you
<joepie91> if you can even call it a 'joke'
<simpson> Yeah, it really poisons the well for those of us working on alternative languages to JS.
<__monty__> Apologies. It's a deserved reputation afaics. Didn't mean anything by it.
<gchristensen> I mean
<joepie91> no, it's very much not.
<gchristensen> your apology says you did mean it
<simpson> joepie91: FWIW the way that I see this move by Github is that we will now have *two* large commercial providers of Node-compatible packages. Perhaps that will lead to even more than two. And perhaps that will, in turn, lead to a more flexible ecosystem.
<joepie91> simpson: unfortunately, I doubt that, because the entire dependency architecture is built for having *one* central registry.
<joepie91> and npm owns that namespace.
<joepie91> the best-case scenario here is that npm inc works together with github on not having name clashes.
* colemickens tangentially wonders how rust is going to handle alternative non-Crates.io registries.
<joepie91> but I sincerely doubt that that will happen.
<joepie91> the more likely result is that there will come to exist two parallel dependency ecosystems that don't interoperate
<joepie91> or that the github registry just doesn't get used for public packages because people want to avoid exactly that
<joepie91> this whole npm-owns-the-namespace problem is one I've been working on for a while, and that recently somebody brought up a potential solution for
<joepie91> but it seems that github ate my lunch
<simpson> Or people write a new package management tool which puts both npm and github into their own namespaces.
<joepie91> and just barged in and said "fuck it, we'll run it in parallel"
<joepie91> simpson: there are significant backwards compatibility issues with that.
<joepie91> it is /technically possible/ to work around this problem, most likely, but I see no evidence of github attempting to do so
<joepie91> and it involves a nasty hack with fake Git servers
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<simpson> joepie91: If that's the case, then it's a tacit admission that folks have been writing code to npm, and not to Node or any more-open governing body. It's always unpleasant to discover one's underlying corporate sponsor.
<joepie91> this has been known for years
<joepie91> it's a network effect problem
<__monty__> gchristensen: I didn't mean to insult anyone. I *did* mean npm's reputation is terrible when it comes to security and JS's for violating the law of demeter. I'm not saying other package ecosystems have better security practices btw, just that npm *has* a bad reputation.
<joepie91> npm != JS
<gchristensen> samueldr: how do I make a pre word wrap? :/
<samueldr> depends, does it need to break a word?
<gchristensen> no
<samueldr> word-wrap: normal; I think should do it
<gchristensen> hrm
<samueldr> and breaking a word is almost always going to cause pains in the end
<gchristensen> eh, I won't worry about it
<samueldr> wait, white-space: pre-wrap, word-wrap is how the word themselves are going to be wrapped
<samueldr> going to be broken*
<__monty__> simpson: How does a joke about JS poison the well for alternatives? Wouldn't the demise of JS benefit replacements rather?
<gchristensen> https://screenshotscdn.firefoxusercontent.com/images/600f8042-6fd7-4f2a-a7d0-c37f24f9b450.png thanks samueldr :) working on docs about diff-hook
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<andi-> One more day and my systemd v242 branch is down to a single vm test failing (that doesn't fail on hydra.nixos.org) \o/ I hope that by sunday I can create all the PRs… We should do that more often and not just once a year :/
<gchristensen> nice!
<andi-> (side note; digital ocean S3 buckets are really slow when inserting.. not sure if I'd do that again)
<andi-> and the 250GB cap doesn't help either.. will have to wipe it once done..
<gchristensen> nice
<samueldr> don't know if it can be useful, but nix can also insert into a cache over http; I have a barebones thing I used to create a small cache
<andi-> Will probably go that path in the long run. Did the setup a while ago and it worked really well so far. INserting large amounts of files just became a bit slow and hydra would sit there downloading form cache.nixos.org and reuploading to my cache for hours initially..