gchristensen changed the topic of #nixos-chat to: NixOS but much less topical || https://logs.nix.samueldr.com/nixos-chat
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<samueldr> wrote my first rust thing, and it's terrible (my thing, not rust)<
<samueldr> though at least I'm reasonably confident that using it as a SUID program is safer than the equivalent naïve C approach
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<buckley310> I discovered recently that simply not returning from main() in C can be a security issue. I have sort of given up on the idea that i will ever be able to write secure C. humans arent designed to deal with memory unsafety xD
<Kim> I'm not sure I should be as proud of this as I am: https://github.com/rummik/nixos-config/raw/master/screenshots/tmux.png
<Shados> samueldr: Coincidentally, I'm working on my first Rust thing right now. What is yours?
<clever> buckley310: how is not returning a security issue?
<buckley310> clever: it was a toy example, to be fair, but basically if you dont explicitly return from main, your program will leak EAX as its return code when it hits the end of the function
<Shados> Kim: I'm going to guess... vim-SyntaxRange? I use it for that purpose too :).
<Kim> Shados: Yes xD
<clever> buckley310: ahh, i was thinking more in terms of exit(0);
<clever> buckley310: the compiler should warn you that you left main without a return
<buckley310> maybe it does in some configurations
<buckley310> (-wAll ?)
<clever> i usually turn on -Wall or -Weverything
<clever> some crazy people even -Werror, so all warnings turn into errors!
<Kim> Shados: It feels so hacky though. I'm sure there's probably a better way to do it, but I'm not really sure what that would be
<Shados> Kim: Do you have it set up to be somehow parameterized though? Mine is pretty manual per-language.
<Kim> Which I'm sure isn't the best place for that, but it's somewhere to put it
<Shados> Kim: Huh. It's nicer than mine anyway, I'm just matching between some marker comments, and I didn't bother trying to properly highlight inline Nix expressions in the string. As far as better ways to do it... there might not be. Vim syntax highlighting is a bit of a clusterfuck right now. There is an open issue for neovim looking to integrate tree-sitter at some point, so if/when that happens this would become saner.
<samueldr> Shados: manipulating /sys/class/leds for keyboard backlight
<samueldr> (and learning experience)
<Kim> Shados: That's what I did originally, but got tired of the manual aspects of that pretty quickly
<Shados> Yeah, what you've done now is a lot nicer
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<Kim> Mostly xD
<Kim> It has some shenanigans that I'd like to avoid but am not totally sure how to
<Kim> (Specifically hiding in my configuration.nix)
<Shados> Is there a specific need for it to be a module argument...?
<Kim> Probably not? I just got tired of including it everywhere
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<Shados> I think I would have just put into a module option
<Kim> Shados: Module option?
<Kim> Oh, dorp. Yeah
<Kim> I wonder if I can (ab)use that to set __nixPath...
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<sphalerite> the last 5 minutes of a zpool scrub are always the longest…
<etu> Hmm, maybe time to start thinking about flights for NixCon:)
* etu will probably refuse to fly to Brno and take the train to/from Prague instead
<etu> Mostly because I want to visit Prague as well while down there :p
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<sphalerite> 0B repaired, 100.02% done
<sphalerite> oh boy
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<Kim> Shados: Doesn't seem to work. I think I remember trying it before
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<srhb> Oh god why do some people like travelling. I am so trashed, and I've had two and a half days to recover already. q_q
<srhb> or rather, *how* do they do it
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<tilpner> sphalerite: Relevant: https://github.com/zfsonlinux/zfs/issues/8611
<{^_^}> zfsonlinux/zfs#8611 (by denizzzka, 4 weeks ago, closed): scrub status: Inaccurate percents output
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<sphalerite> gchristensen: re twitter: "ex bassoonist"? I knew the bassoonist part, but not the ex part. Is there some sort of dramatic story here? :D
<flokli> The bassoon left for another bassoonist? :-D
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<gchristensen> sphalerite: last time I played bassoon I decided to be an ex-bassoonist :)
<srhb> gchristensen: That's a very good way of putting it to prevent information leakage. This must be true of every ex-bassoonist. xD
<gchristensen> haha
<pie__> does nixcon even have a website yet
<pie__> does it even have a date yet
<srhb> pie__: No, and maybe.
<srhb> (So no :-P)
<Taneb> It seems to barely have a place
<srhb> Indeed.
<Taneb> (Brno is somewhat less easy to get for me than London)
<pie__> is it even going to happen? :D
<srhb> More things may be happening behind the scenes than we can see though, but october and Brno seems likely at least. :-P
<gchristensen> pie__: the organizers are definitely working to get it done
<pie__> \o/
<pie__> im looking forward to it
<gchristensen> London was very expensive, I assume Brno is not as expensive?
<Synthetica> gchristensen: It's a relatively small town in Eastern Europe, from experience I can tell it's not gonna be expensive for western standards
<gchristensen> 400k people in the swall town itself, hrm :)
<srhb> And it doesn't get much more xpensive than London in Europe anyway...
<srhb> Paris? Stockholm? Maybe. :)
<srhb> (Paris certainly, Stockholm maybe.)
<srhb> Copenhagen is probably shit as well, I just can't tell because I live here. :-P
<Synthetica> srhb: Copenhagen seemed nice from the ~30 minutes I spent there :P
<srhb> Synthetica: Layover? :P
<aanderse> flights from yyz to brno too expensive to justify to wife T_T
<infinisil> I guess switzerland is also pretty expensive :P
<srhb> infinisil: Oh yeah..
<Synthetica> srhb: We were driving from Sweden to the Netherlands on the very day of that train crash at the start of this year, so we decided "might as well have lunch in Copenhagen instead of in a huge traffic jam on that bridge"
<srhb> Synthetica: aaaah, yes, okay. I imagine everything shut down, good call.
<gchristensen> aanderse: yeah, the EU-centricness of the Nix community is a bit unfair for us
<gchristensen> "unfair" -- I mean unfortunate. we could, after all, make our own conf :)
<joepie91> EU best U
<srhb> xD
<pie__> pf
<joepie91> :P
<pie__> noone wants to go to america these days anyway :pp
<srhb> I was just in Montreal.
<aanderse> gchristensen: awesome! so far it's you and me! lol
<srhb> Can't recommend, got a ridiculous sun burn.
<gchristensen> and a bunch of people in Champaign, IL
<srhb> Oh really? Why is that..
<aanderse> last time i was in Quebec i heard someone complain to the hotel about the weather and ask the hotel staff whar they were going to to about our lol
<gchristensen> university doing fun things
<srhb> Ah :)
<gchristensen> dtz for example
<srhb> aanderse: I hope I didn't come off that way, I did try to joke about it and didn't seem to get past he cultural barrier completely :-P
<aanderse> hahaha nice
<srhb> So in retrospect I probably did :P
<gchristensen> anyway, srhb, if you're in Montreal again let me know :) it wouldn't be impossible for me to find a reason to get up there.
<srhb> gchristensen: Oh really? I had even considered it but thought it was way too far.
<gchristensen> it is a nice train ride, and I have some friends up there
<srhb> The distances over yonder are humbling and confusing to me :-P
<srhb> If I have to leave cph even for some other nearby city I'll whine for days in advance. Clearly different perspectives here xD
<Taneb> If I have to go farther than London (I'm in Cambridge) I plan an overnight trip
<gchristensen> haha ... when I lived in Texas, I'd drive 5 hours each way to visit my mother/father in law for a 2 day weekend ...
<srhb> Ouch!!
<gchristensen> it is why we are obsessed with cup holders ;)
<srhb> Makes a lot more sense! :D
<pie__> you mean cd drives?
<pie__> no wait
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<Taneb> pie__: actual cup holders in this case
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<Synthetica> That's like driving up and down to Berlin, no way I'm doing that for a weekend :P
<Taneb> ...my parents *did* do that last weekend, in the UK
<Taneb> And I sometimes do it by train for a weekend, huh
<sphalerite> gchristensen: not just EU, we have some people in Switzerland too :p
<etu> srhb: I wouldn't mind NixCon in Stockholm at some point. Easy travels for me :DDD
<gchristensen> sphalerite: :)
<Synthetica> Nixcon Utrecht, the birthplace of Nix (and literally a stop on the way from me to my parents :P)
<etu> Synthetica: Handy ;)
<Taneb> I wouldn't say no
<etu> I wouldn't mind Copenhagen as well, then I could visit some old friends as well
<etu> As I will do with the one in Brno. Visit friends in Prague :)
<Taneb> I'd like to go to Copenhagen, it'd let me more honestly claim I've been to Denmark (I've been, but it was before my second birthday)
* etu lived in Helsingborg for a while, it's quite close to Denmark so we used to go on day-trips there :)
<srhb> etu: That's usually called binging here :P
<etu> srhb: Visting Copenhagen for the day?
<srhb> I meant the Helsingborg-Helsingoer trip (which is usually about boozing, for some reason) :P
<etu> yeah
<etu> On the Swedish side they called it "Tura" as a "tur" is a "trip" more or less, but yeah, so you jump on the boat and go back and forth between the countries :p
<ar> tour? ;)
<srhb> tur in danish is definitely more like trip than tour (not implying seeing any sights) -- presumably in swedish too
<etu> ar: Yeah, but not a regular one
<jasongrossman> "Utrecht" is fun to say.
<gchristensen> it is a really nice place, too
<gchristensen> I'm wishing I spent a weekend there instead of Amsterdam :P
<etu> gchristensen: Are you planning to go to NixCon this year? :)
<gchristensen> yep :)
<etu> Awesome
<eyJhb> Pst, come to Aalborg instead of CPH ;)
<Shados> Kim: Storing the filetype list in a module option didn't work?
<gchristensen> Duolingo has been especially punishing this morning -- giving me a free form text box to translate sentences with a structure and vocabulary I don't know yet
<__monty__> Yes, it's not very smart about such things. Always feels like it sets you up to fail.
<srhb> gchristensen: I thought that was optional? Or is that only in the beginning?
<srhb> gchristensen: I never got disciplined enough to get really far. What are you learning?
<gchristensen> it was in a "quiz"
<srhb> Oh, ow. :D
<gchristensen> I got a score of 0.3 out of 5 :'D
<srhb> gchristensen: That's 10% rounded up! :P
<gchristensen> anyway, French -- I figure it is worth learning a bit of French for when I visit Tweag's offices :)
<srhb> Nice, yeah!
<__monty__> srhb: I think you'll find it's 20% if you round up : >
<srhb> I guess if you round up sufficiently it can be anything you want :P
<__monty__> gchristensen: When are you visiting and do people know what you look like? Perfectly innocent question of course, who said anything about impersonation?
<gchristensen> lol
<gchristensen> I've already been twice :)
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<adisbladis> etu: tbh copenhagen would probably be a better choice
<adisbladis> Their airport have way more connections
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<etu> adisbladis: Yeah, Copenhagen would be great :)
<adisbladis> Also just happens to be one of my favourite capitals in europe (:
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* srhb boggles
<adisbladis> srhb: I have fond memories of biking around at night with good friends =)
<etu> srhb: When you live in an area you get a different perspective of it :)
<adisbladis> Indeed
<adisbladis> srhb: And you guys still have the salty lakrids snøre!
<adisbladis> That alone is a few points ;)
<etu> srhb: I missed you when I was in Skåne last summer, but I'm gonna pass by Skåne and Copenhagen this summer as well. Around 15-17th of August I think. The plans aren't set in stone and probably won't be because we prefer to not plan things when we travel :p
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<Kim> Shados: Yeah
<jasongrossman> \/join #denmark
<gchristensen> unfortunately my ancestors /part'd #denmark
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<jasongrossman> My ancestors-in-law did too.
<jasongrossman> Maybe it's not so surprising. It is the sixth biggest country in the world.
<Synthetica> jasongrossman: Greenland doesn't count ;)
<jasongrossman> Damn.
<Taneb> My ancestors parted somewhere a little more south-west
<Taneb> But it was the home country of Nix!
<sphalerite> Taneb: already back then?
<Taneb> sphalerite: absolutely
<Taneb> Throughout history, Nix has come from the Netherlands
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<yorick> zimbatm: is someone writing tree-sitter-nix somewhere?
<yorick> dammit, I keep missing all the discourses
<zimbatm> yorick: the Haskell bindings are still missing
<zimbatm> yorick: are you looking to use that parser with your nixfmt project?
<yorick> we would welcome a pull-request :P
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<yorick> the priority right now is fixing the formatting
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<eyJhb> Still voting Aalborg instead of CPH
* gchristensen votes for a Berkshire County, MA Nix conference
<samueldr> 🎉 two years today since I started using nixos as my daily driver OS (and a couple months before for using nix and looking at nixos)
<gchristensen> :o :D
<aanderse> happy nixos birthday samueldr :)
<samueldr> hope y'all have marked your respective date on your calendars, it's nice to know
<samueldr> a couple years down you'll know how many years it's been, instead of guessing
<gchristensen> indeed! I know mine based on my IRC logs of #nixos
<gchristensen> (2016-01-15)b
<samueldr> (I can't gauge using PR contributions, considering my first one was 2015, but I didn't stick at the time)
<gchristensen> is there another site like this? http://www.logicalincrements.com/ iirc there was.
<samueldr> could it be https://pcpartpicker.com ?
<gchristensen> don't think that was it
<tilpner> gchristensen: https://www.productchart.com/ is vaguely similar
<gchristensen> oh neat
<gchristensen> thanks, tilpner!
<tilpner> Now I see why people leave store optimisation off
<gchristensen> what happened?
<tilpner> "4 store paths deleted, 0.24 MiB freed", "1h 33m"
<tilpner> (But also "note: currently hard linking saves 100180.52 MiB", so that slowdown isn't for nothing)
<eyJhb> Anybody know any license gurus regarding software licenses? - Trying to ask again, as I am still fucking around in all the license available
<gchristensen> what's up?
<eyJhb> gchristensen: basically still trying to figoure out the right license for my opensource cyber security platform, but can't seem to figure out the correct one
<eyJhb> Currently tipping close to using AGPLv3
<joepie91> eyjhb: hold
<gchristensen> I assume you've seen choosealicense.com?
<eyJhb> gchristensen: yeah, looked at it
<joepie91> eyjhb: (that post has a list of some common and/or notable licenses, and short explanations)
<eyJhb> Properly will again, just seems hard. As I do not like the idea, of giving people the ability to just clone it, and then use it internally without giving back (seeing as I have a close competitor)..
<simpson> eyjhb: Maybe you don't want to release it openly, then.
<joepie91> a consideration to make when using a GPL-esque (ie. copyleft) license is that violation of them is pretty widespread, and the effectiveness will be very limited unless you have the means to sue over violations
<joepie91> I'm not a fan of GPLesque licenses for this reasons, as they end up mostly imposing a cost on well-intentioned users
<joepie91> reason*
<samueldr> do remember in the discussion that dishonesty will exist, but dishonesty shouldn't really colour the choice of license imo
<gchristensen> yeah if you don't want people running it, maybe you don't want it to be OSS
<eyJhb> simpson nahh, I am not going to make any money off it at all, and they don't seem like the ones to do so! (colleagues at work), but, you never know
<simpson> eyjhb: FWIW the last time I had the opportunity to contribute back to code which my competitors used, I had to push to get them to consider my ideas to be worth including.
<samueldr> of note also, choosing an OSI approved license may or may not be important, but something to keep in mind
<simpson> If you're treating this as more of an over-the-wall code dump than a long-term project, then there are licenses like CRAPL.
<eyJhb> simpson: hmm, properly right. Most of their features are idiotic but, yeah
<eyJhb> OSI approved?
<eyJhb> Going to be a long term project, currently looking for funding, so I can work on it "full time" (whatever that means while you study)
<joepie91> the CRAPL seems to add a lot of stuff into the 'license' that has nothing to do with licensing
<joepie91> actually, the CRAPL doesn't look open-source at all
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<eyJhb> I am a bad person, for thinking stealing counts as "obtaining a copy"? - `to any person obtaining a copy
<eyJhb> of this software and associated documentation files (the "Software")`
<eyJhb> `
<samueldr> hmmm
<eyJhb> The annoying thing about a license is, that you can't change it later (or is hard), only if you change it to a more "loose" model
<pie__> eyjhb, whats this <eyjhb> gchristensen: basically still trying to figoure out the right license for my opensource cyber security platform, but can't seem to figure out the correct one
<sphalerite> eyjhb: it's only hard if you accept contributions from other
<sphalerite> s
<eyJhb> pie__:? :)
<eyJhb> sphalerite and that I will, if anybody wants to do so!
<eyJhb> But I can see now, I also need to go on a scavenger hunt on, what I am actually using of software in my own software
<eyJhb> Which is basically... Libraries in Go
<pie__> eyjhb, whats your open source cyber security platform
<eyJhb> pie__: basically a client/server/agent relationship, where the server provides a web API, which is easy to integrate with, to e.g. spin up VMS for doing security events
<pie__> ohh youre the ctf guy
<eyJhb> Yes! ;)
<pie__> forgot about yesterday or whenever
<eyJhb> There is actually a live version up and running currently on CTFd
<eyJhb> About the Gitlab/Github discussion?
<pie__> (dunno, *shrug*)
<eyJhb> But it is kind of hard to discribe, without like, showing anyone. As I currently have no drawings of the infrastructure
<eyJhb> But I do have plugins an Python API integrations online!
<aanderse> the security platform we run here requires root access :\
<Ralith> lol
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<eyJhb> aanderse: root access how? Running the server for this, somewhat does too, including the agents. Seeing as docker basically is instant root :p
<aanderse> fair enough then
<aanderse> yeah i don't know how it uses root access because it is a proprietary platform
<aanderse> it logs in
<aanderse> does whatever it wants
<aanderse> and somehow that makes us more secure
<aanderse> :P
<pie__> thats uhhhh something different xD
<aanderse> intrusive scanning i guess
* pie__ sprinkles magic CYBER dust on aanderse
<eyJhb> aanderse: pst, give me creds, and I will do the same ;) :p
<aanderse> oh laugh now... but this is "industry standard" in corporate environments
<aanderse> sigh
<__monty__> aanderse: This is a platform for people to solve challenges in though. Not a securing your company platform.
<eyJhb> Yes, what __monty__ said
<aanderse> ah
<__monty__> Sounds like a lame attempt at shifting liability, aanderse.
<eyJhb> Or. I would be interested in seeing people use it for securing their systems!
<aanderse> __monty__: sounds like you would succeed career wise here :)
<aanderse> ha ha ha
<eyJhb> Just think I will try to clean up OCTP (my platform) a little, and then just push without a license for now
<aanderse> in all fairness though the platform has spotted some issues we didn't realize existed on our networks a few times now
<aanderse> so hopefully net gain?
<aanderse> i had a good laugh looking at the bash history on the nixos boxes i granted the scanner access to :)
<__monty__> eyjhb: I'd just pick whatever license you like best right now. Nothing wrong with agpl.
<aanderse> i would have loved to be a fly on the wall the first time they saw there was nothing under /usr/bin
<aanderse> lol
<__monty__> Are these nixos systems?
<eyJhb> Yeah, prop.. Basically if I don't have anyone contribute, I can just change the license
<__monty__> Yes, unless you have multiple personalities. Those could throw a spanner in the works.
<eyJhb> *makes no promises*
<__monty__> eyjhb: Do note however that agpl attracts more haters on average. People have lots of misunderstandings about it.
<eyJhb> __monty__ yeah, for no I will just do no license
<eyJhb> Btw. is anybody up for solving my web calculator challenge? ;)
<eyJhb> People hated me for it basically.. We had a previous challeng with a "firewall", which they hated. So we made this new challenge, and implemented the firwall again. They were not amused!
<__monty__> That's the worst you can do though.
<eyJhb> __monty__ no license just means noone can use it basically
<__monty__> Yes, which means it's only useful to people who don't care about licenses. It only keeps floss supporters from using your stuff.
<__monty__> I'm up for trying a challenge depending on how much time it would take.
<eyJhb> I have pm'ed you the details ;)
<eyJhb> Yeah, but would only be for a short while. And it would allow for people to actually see what I am talking about, and not just bogus me explaining weird concepts
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<sphalerite> eyjhb: technically people aren't allowed to read it either :)
<__monty__> sphalerite: Are you sure? *Copy*right is about copying, not acquiring/using.
<__monty__> eyjhb: It's not a big deal. Just pick a license, go with your gut feeling but do pick one. Consider it netiquette.
<sphalerite> __monty__: pretty sure various proprietary licences prohibit you from reading the program code.
<__monty__> sphalerite: Yes but code without a license by definition does not come with one of those : )
<eyJhb> As far as I read from e.g. joepie91 and other sources, licenses only allows for "more" rather than prohibit
<sphalerite> __monty__: but downloading the code in order to read it is a form of copying it
<__monty__> sphalerite: You can make personal copies as much as you want afaiui.
<eyJhb> Basically split between AGPLv3 and MIT now. MIT if we assume people are nice, but.. Most.. Aren't
<__monty__> eyjhb: I think that's technically true in the sense that a license can't limit your rights. But that's definitely not how they're used.
<__monty__> eyjhb: Companies mostly go with GPL nowadays.
<__monty__> They used to prefer bsd-style licenses.
<eyJhb> Damn, Microsoft uses MIT
<joepie91> eyjhb: for what it's worth, I use the WTFPL/CC0 for ~all my stuff, neither of which require attribution - and I usually explicitly point out that attribution is appreciated but not required... yet people still pretty consistently provide attribution
<joepie91> more generally speaking, my experience has been that most people are nice :)
<__monty__> joepie91: Aren't there problems with that? Not all places allow you to put a work in the public domain just because you want to.
<joepie91> __monty__: that's exactly the reason for existence of the WTFPL/CC0
<joepie91> to provide a PD-equivalent license
<__monty__> I've read quite some critique of the wtfpl though. And CC0 is not written with code in mind so I believe even creativecommons themselves recommend against it?
<joepie91> "written with code in mind" is irrelevant for something that blanket-allows everything
<joepie91> and places no requirements
<joepie91> the recommendation only applies to other CC licenses
<joepie91> and yes, some people complain about the WTFPL, but I've never seen a particularly well-reasoned argument against it
<joepie91> all the complaints pretty much come down to "it doesn't read like legalese!"
<joepie91> still, if somebody takes issue with the WTFPL, they have the choice of using it under CC0 instead of bothering me about it :)
<joepie91> (which is the only reason I dual-license)
<samueldr> dual licensing is fine in that case, and I would like it if anyone using WTFPL would do similar
<joepie91> shrug
<joepie91> I don't recognize the complaints about the WTFPL as valid
<joepie91> I can't say that I care about whether other WTFPL users dual-license
<joepie91> for me it's strictly a get-people-off-my-damn-back measure :)
<Ralith> iirc google employees are specifically forbidden from contributing to WTFPL projects
<joepie91> Ralith: somewhat hilariously, they quote the OSI rejection as part of the reason for that, despite said rejection not actually being based on any legal arguments
<joepie91> so I can't say that I take that too seriously :)
<joepie91> "Comments: It's no different from dedication to the public domain. Author has submitted license approval request -- author is free to make public domain dedication. Although he agrees with the recommendation, Mr. Michlmayr notes that public domain doesn't exist in Europe. Recommend: Reject"
<Ralith> unfortunately, google employees must take it seriously
<joepie91> (which is wrong on *two* separate counts)
<joepie91> shrug, not really my problem
<joepie91> oh no, Google cannot use my work for free :)
<Ralith> yeah, nonissue if you're not interested in contributions
<joepie91> I'm interested in contributions, I'm just not interested in contributions *from Google specifically*
<Ralith> note that "google employees" and "google" are different entities
<joepie91> "For various reasons described in the following sections, some software is available only under license terms that make it unsuitable for use at Google. "
<joepie91> "at Google"
<joepie91> not "by Google employees"
<Ralith> it's literally the third sentence
<Ralith> "We also do not allow contribution to projects under the WTFPL."
<joepie91> *at Google*
<joepie91> ie. not "by Google employees"
<joepie91> nowhere does that say anything about their employees outside of Google
<Ralith> the "at Google" qualifier is applied to use, not contributions
<Ralith> this is (a portion of) the document that outlines the rules under which google employees may participate in open source under any circumstances
<joepie91> that still doesn't say anything about 'outside of Google' (nor do I think that Google can even dictate that, though perhaps in the US they could)
<eyJhb> They don't like AGPL either
<__monty__> joepie91: What's the two counts?
<joepie91> __monty__: a) "public domain does not exist" (it does, just *dedication* to it doesn't), b) "no different from dedication to the public domain" (see a)
<joepie91> actually, there may be a third count
<joepie91> I think some countries /do/ have dedication
<__monty__> That's just being pedantic though.
<joepie91> isn't that kind of the OSI's job? :)
<__monty__> Not really, as long as they come to the proper conclusions.
<joepie91> right, and they haven't
<joepie91> per above
<joepie91> it was rejected because "no different from public domain", which is false
<gchristensen> (speaking of being pedantic)
<joepie91> and people are basing licensing decisions on that ruling
<joepie91> that is a real, tangible consequence
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<gchristensen> I wish systemd could do project daemons :(
<__monty__> What are project daemons?
<gchristensen> like systemd has "user units" which are started when you log in / etc.
<__monty__> Systemd level lorri?
<gchristensen> I'd like to use systemd to start and stop my project's process dependencies -- like amqp, mysql, minio, nginx
<gchristensen> right now I have a silly bash script doing it, and it does a terrible job
<__monty__> Would be nice. I use scripts that set up tmux sessions and start things like hoogle.
<samueldr> gchristensen: so, like foreman I guess?
<samueldr> though foreman has one big drawback: no dependencies
<samueldr> (AFAICT)
<gchristensen> right
<samueldr> so no "wait for postgresql socket to be available before starting that one app that will crash without it" and any foreman process exiting will drop the whole stack
<gchristensen> bingo
<pie__> foreman + make file? :P
<samueldr> foreman starts every processes it knows it should start at once
<pie__> oh well ok make wont *manage* deps :<
<gchristensen> the thing I like about systemd is that it lets me pretend there isn't chewing gum and twine keeping things together
<sphalerite> what about stuff like supervisor? (I suspect supervisor itself is out of fashion nowadays)
<sphalerite> or s6
<sphalerite> or runit
<gchristensen> bash scripts :(
<gchristensen> I'll check out s6
<sphalerite> I'm sure there are some service managers that can run both as pid1 and not as pid1
<__monty__> gchristensen: This actually sounds like it might be a good solution: https://github.com/purpleidea/mgmt
<__monty__> Let me look for part of a talk that made me think of it.
<LnL> I think the ideas behind that project are interesting but a bad idea in a non demo context
<__monty__> Do tell.
<LnL> isn't that the fswatch thing?
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<__monty__> Not sure. Anything wrong with fswatch?
<LnL> I don't have any specific arguments, using things like that so heavily in a production context just doesn't sound like a great idea to me
<__monty__> In this case it's for a development setup, not production.
<__monty__> I don't see any inherent problems with the approach though. Not that I have experience running anything in production. Just not gonna take someone's gut feel for absolute truth : )
<LnL> sure I could be totally wrong
<__monty__> Is your main issue with it that fswatch on many files wouldn't scale? I doubt it has to run fswatch on everything though, there's bound to be many kinds of events.
<__monty__> I understood it as basically an FRP approach to configuration management.
<joepie91> [22:04] <gchristensen> the thing I like about systemd is that it lets me pretend there isn't chewing gum and twine keeping things together
<joepie91> wait, yours runs on twine?
<joepie91> mine only has pocket lint!
<gchristensen> you should upgrade, the twine is great!
<joepie91> :)
<samueldr> I love how "fast.fonts.com" makes it so the page I'm loading is blank for a couple more seconds on some random site
<samueldr> (because of it being blocked I guess)
<samueldr> fast.fonts.net*
* samueldr checks if it actually is that script's fault
<samueldr> ah, no, in that case it was googletagmanager... :/
<samueldr> I much preferred the irony of fast.* causing slowness
<__monty__> Heh, nice thing about fast.fonts.net/com is it 404s. Fast fonts "not found."
<gchristensen> anyone going to see the DS9 movie tonight?
* samueldr didn't know it was a thing
<samueldr> from what I can tell it looks like a US only event, in limited theatres
<gchristensen> ah ...
<gchristensen> I was surprised to see my local theater has it, as they are very small
<samueldr> or maybe not limited
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<sphalerite> does anyone know where dezgeg got to? His github activity has pretty much died…
<gchristensen> might be time for a check-up email
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<Church-> Heya samueldr gchristensen
<Church-> And joepie91
<Church-> The NSA debugger?
<pie__> (you were packaging kali stuff at some point right? or am i mixing you up with someone)
<Church-> Cool
<Church-> Nope that's me
<pie__> *thumbs up*
<Church-> Haven't touched my NixOS laptop since I started work :p
<Church-> Need to test and upstream some of that stuff still
<pie__> its a disassembler but whatever :
<pie__> * :p
<pie__> / decompiler / reverse engineery thingy
* samueldr wonders how one works without NixOS
<samueldr> ;)
<pie__> samueldr, ikr
<pie__> though sometimes i still wonder how i work with nixos
<Church-> Heh speaking of that, does NixOS use any error reporting during the build pipeline or when building new versions of Nix and the like?
<pie__> though lately its been more of a question of how the F does random toolchain X work
<samueldr> Church-: what do you mean?
<Church-> Eh like if a stacktrace happens, core dump, etc, etc.
<Church-> pie__: God I know that feeling.
<Church-> I've spent two and change months replacing a 35k line puppet codebase
<pie__> the curse of integration development
<pie__> tfw still havent set up emacs
* pie__ grinds along with nano and crashes into bed
<pie__> Church-, you should dump me your WIP tool list
<pie__> sidenote i could still use some help packaging cuckoo :P not sure thats worth it though
<Church-> cuckoo is?
<Church-> And yeah when I get a chance I will!
<pie__> some open source analysis sandbox
<pie__> or something like that
<Church-> Hmm, link?
<Church-> Oh that's top innit
<pie__> its not a highly funded pro tool but its decent from what ive heard
<pie__> the codebase uses some hella old packages in some places though >_>
<pie__> i talked a friend through a 1 line patch that bumped forward 10 version from 9 to 19
<pie__> *bumped pip forward
<Church-> samueldr: Or for example say that you fail to build Hydra, or other core parts of the NixOS, or an error of some sorts happens but build succeeds, etc. So are there tools in place like an APM or something is what I'm wondering.
<Church-> pie__: Oh boy
<pie__> but thats just something id coincidentally run across, other stuff is probably not so easy
<pie__> anyway, i think it might be neat to have *shrug*
<samueldr> well... the build has to fail... to fail...
<pie__> could use it for non-malware stuff as well
<Church-> Oh definitely. I love the sound of it.
<samueldr> it's a pretty binary state, built or failed; can't be just failed a little AFAIK
<samueldr> and normally, where the builds hits the road/nix, the first failure makes it fail entirely, like bash -e
<samueldr> so if you somehow have a build system that returns 0 on failure, then it wouldn't fail the build
<Church-> samueldr: Yeah dunno, think I'm not getting my question across right due to exhaustion.
<samueldr> if that derivation has tests, hopefully they, too, will fail on failure :)
<samueldr> and hopefully, if the buildPhase succeeded, but in reality broke, that checkPhase would fail
<Church-> Was basically trying to figure out if NixOS could use something like https://backtrace.io
<Church-> For the infra bits and core bits
<samueldr> now that's a better question :)
<samueldr> I guess something can be done, not sure what though; on failure, you know it failed, you could then ship the log to a service that does fancy stuff
* joepie91 points at https://sentry.io/welcome/ as an open-source alternative
<joepie91> also brief hai before sleep
* joepie91 is off to bed
<Church-> joepie91: Heh, we have a free open source tier as well. Thus why I was wondering.