gchristensen changed the topic of #nixos-chat to: NixOS but much less topical || https://logs.nix.samueldr.com/nixos-chat
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<Shados> joepie91[m]: I'd much prefer plain commonmark to mdx. Tying documentation to JSX just seems bizarre. It's not even a particularly *popular* compiles-to-JS language. Implementing our own extensions to to commonmark also wouldn't be hard (with the reference cmark implementation, you could likely just parse the commonmark text, then run a filter that processes the AST to handle our custom stuff before rendering.
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<colemickens> Drakonis_ I only really figured it out because I knew that the system config was just nix-build'ed at some point, just looked at nixos-rebuild, it's a pretty short script :)
<colemickens> Drakonis, idk if my other message went through, but I'd only figured out that it was possible from readign through nixos-rebuild and copying the few vital lines out.
<colemickens> I sorta did all of that before flakes took off in force... so naturally reading through the flakes design doc was very exciting.
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<drakonis1> golf clap
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<Arahael> What's the preferred web browser in nixos these days? Want something secure, fast, efficient, and isn't chrome. (But happy to consider chromium...)
<ivan> I use chromium
<Arahael> ivan: Does it work with netflix?
<ivan> no, it's missing widevine and google forbids redistribution of widevine
<ivan> there's a PR on nixpkgs that might make it work
<Arahael> That sounds frustrating. :( It does work in Firefox, but I've been less keen on firefox as of late.
<Arahael> Maybe I could just use firefox as the "netflix app", and use chromium for everything else.
<jasongrossman> qutebrowser is nice.
<Arahael> A bit too minimalistic for me.
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<Shados> arahael: If you want some weirder options... Falkon, Otter, Sandcat. (Also, that's a lot of animal names)
<Arahael> Weirder than qutebrowser!?
<Shados> Yes. And it can get much weirder, if you want.
<Shados> I did a relatively exhaustive review of browser options over like... 2018-10 to 2019-02
<Arahael> Shados: If you have that online, I'd be interested to take a glance :)
<Shados> arahael: There's an older version of my notes on here https://gist.github.com/Shados/e89a1752f97f7007595ca189b0fbbd67, I should probably merge my newer notes into one doc again. I had/have kinda odd goals though, so my analysis may not be too useful to you.
<Arahael> Shados: That's cool, will take a glance, I'm curious.
<jasongrossman> Falkon is weirdly UNweird, IMO. (I like it though.)
<Arahael> Shados: sandcat is written in delphi!? Interesting. (I know delphi)
<Arahael> Shados: Good reason to avoid it. ;)
<Shados> arahael: Uses Lua for extensions though.
<Shados> It's a bit like luakit actually
<Arahael> Shados: You missed elinks.
<Shados> No, I didn't. It just wasn't notable enough (to me) to get listed :P.
<jasongrossman> I use wget.
<Arahael> Shados: How so? Graphical. Has javascript. And much, much better than dillo.
<Shados> ? The only elinks I know of is text-only?
<Arahael> Shados: Run it with -g
<MichaelRaskin> arahael: I will trust Pascal program more than a C++ program
<Arahael> MichaelRaskin: C++ has resource management. Delphi doesn't.
<MichaelRaskin> I think it is links2 -g, not elinks -g
<Shados> elinks doesn't have -g
<Arahael> Ah, it might be links2, all the variations are confusing.
<Arahael> Shados: Falkon looks intriguing.
<Shados> Dillo is only notable to me because it would be useful for embedding basic rendering of untrusted HTML. For which *not* supporting JS is a feature.
<Arahael> Has experimental JS, I think.
<Arahael> I used it for an RSS reader, and emails. It's not great otherwise.
<Arahael> But if you want something like a quick and dirty popup "HTML viewer", it's good.
<Arahael> *sigh*, falkon doesn't work in nixos :(
<Arahael> Fatal: Cannot mix incompatible Qt library (version 0x50b01) with this library (version 0x50b03)
<jasongrossman> I use falkon all the time. I wonder why it doesn't work for you. Not the sort of thing we're used to in NixOS.
<Shados> jasongrossman: Yeah, I guess at the surface Falkon is less weird. I mainly think it is weird because the way it is architected is designed to make it easy to add support for extensions written in arbitrary languages, but does so via bindings rather than something like uzbl's approach of just talking over sockets
<Arahael> jasongrossman: My guess is that you happen to have library version 0x50b03.
<Shados> arahael: You've updated without restarting desktop-manager.service :P
<jasongrossman> I've used falkon in unstable and both of the last two stables.
<Arahael> Shados: Oooh...
<Shados> QT has impurities at run-time unfortunately
<jasongrossman> Shados: Ah, interesting.
<MichaelRaskin> I think Qt plugin versions are an often-reported problem in Nixpkgs
<Shados> FWIR that is what causes the issue?
<MichaelRaskin> Other distros avoid it by just being plain unable to have two Qt versions installed
<jasongrossman> I really like luakit. Thanks for bringing it to my attention, Shados.
<MichaelRaskin> I wonder if Mozilla ever uses their experiments with GeckoView to make a usable embeddable desktop Gecko
<Shados> Luakit is really very cool. But I *need* to be able to have different proxies per-tab; not having that makes my workflow a lot more annoying, due to multiple customer VPNs etc.
<Shados> It doesn't really say so on that version of the doc, but my basic conclusion for my use-case is: There's no suitable browser. Use waterfox, be sad, and wait for Servo's embedding story to be ready, then write your own damn browser on top of it.
<jasongrossman> Things move so fast in this area, I don't expect to use the same browser for years on end.
<jasongrossman> So plausibly something good will come along for you soon.
<MichaelRaskin> Do the right thing and run different customer things in different isolated instance
<jasongrossman> One reason I'm (slightly) excited about luakit is that it's fast to start, which is relevant for using different instances.
<Shados> MichaelRaskin: It's a lot saner to just have one for internal + client stuff, and another for external stuff, for my usage.
<MichaelRaskin> On one hand, I brought my isolated-Firefox start up time to acceptable (couple of seconds)
<MichaelRaskin> On the other, I now read most of the web stuff in a text editor
<Arahael> Which reminds me, I had difficulty getting a (private) python project into nixos due to weird dependencies such as an implicit setuptools_scm and certifi - the certifi dependency is problematic.
<Arahael> That was at work, though - I'm at home at the moment.
<Arahael> Shados: Currently doing a nixos-rebuild switch, to see if that resolves it. :)
<Arahael> Shados: (To see if it resolves the qt issue, anyway)
<MichaelRaskin> Shados: re: Servo: Servo will probably never be a browser engine intended for normal use
<Arahael> A browser that uses QtWebEngine sounds ideal.
<MichaelRaskin> Still contributing to IE6 2.0
<Shados> MichaelRaskin: What do you mean by "intended for normal use"?
<MichaelRaskin> Well, apparently they fix the annoying corner cases in the process of porting parts of Servo for use with Gecko
<MichaelRaskin> I do hope that Android-targeted GeckoView will eventually lead to sanely embeddable desktop Gecko…
<Shados> MichaelRaskin: Based on my research, it is explicitly intended that Firefox should move to using the general-purpose Servo embedding API, once it is ready...
<Shados> If you've got something that says different then do tell, because that would matter some
<MichaelRaskin> I would expect that the real story would be «learn from the Servo embedding API experiments and design a similar one for Gecko»
<Arahael> Shados: I think it's hard to tell with firefox because aren't they mostly financed by google these days?
<MichaelRaskin> I think it is more complicated now with the Yahoo contract?
<Shados> When I say "based on my research" I mean "based on some statements from Paul Rouget and other people at Mozilla made in the last 1-3 years", so it's not like official guarantees or anything, but AFAIK that is 'the plan'
<MichaelRaskin> Shados: I guess the difference in our perceptions doesn't really matter.
<MichaelRaskin> By the time it is going to happen it will be hard to say if Gecko is half-Servo anyway
<MichaelRaskin> GeckoView work does look promising
<Arahael> Hmm, nixos-rebuild is rebuilting a lot. Also, it seems I'm on the 18-09 channel. I probably should jump to a newer channel.
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<MichaelRaskin> Shados: can't Foxyproxy switch proxies by tab?
<Arahael> If I do... Do I potentially get new intel graphics drivers when I do a nixos-rebuild?
<Shados> MichaelRaskin: Yes, although WebExtension FoxyProxy is fairly gimped
<Shados> Anyway, I'm open to browser suggestions, obviously ;)
<MichaelRaskin> I use Firefox whenever I actually need to interact with the garbage fire which is modern JS, and grab-and-dump-to-text otherwise.
<MichaelRaskin> (for grabbing JS-only text content: wishes of plague, and Firefox with Marionette)
<Arahael> Shados: I've updated my system, but I'm not sure how to actually restart the desktop-manager.service
<Shados> It'll kill your X server
<Arahael> Shados: It's not actually listed in my systemd unit files.
<Shados> Which is why it is not done automatically
<Arahael> Shados: Ah, ok. How do I do it anyway, then? :)
<Arahael> Is it the display-manager.service?
<Shados> Er, *display-manager. But the problem may just be a mismatch between system-wide qt and user-profile qt, rather than running-stuff-versions or old-environment-variables. Could be either.
<Arahael> Well, it's pretty easy to check, so will try it.
<Arahael> Nope, that didn't do it.
<Shados> OK, see if you have qt stuff in both system and user profiles then
<Arahael> Looks like it :(*
<Arahael> falkon is installed into the user profile, so seems likely.
<Shados> Hmmm. Are system and user on the same channel and version of that channel?
<Arahael> Same channel, yes. But unlikely to be the same version of that channel. How do I ensure everything is "upgraded"?
<Arahael> I mean, my 'nix-env -i' stuff just uses the default channel, even though 'nix-channel --list' doesn't actually list anything.
<Shados> Then your user stuff should be using the system channel
<Shados> Hm
<Arahael> I've recently done a 'nix-channel --update nixpkgs', but I don't think it upgraded the whole system - I thought hte nixos-rebuild would do that.
<Arahael> Ahh, I need to specify --upgrade.
<Shados> No, --upgrade just has nixos-rebuild call nix-channel --update on the system channel first, FWIR
<Arahael> Yeah, I did that, and then assumed that nix-rebuild switch would then update everything, given I updated the channel.
<Arahael> But seems I need to add --upgrade to that as well.
<Arahael> Ah, I'm wrong: " which is equivalent to the more verbose nix-channel --update nixos; nixos-rebuild switch. "
<Arahael> So my original assumption ws correct.
<Shados> Ah, you did `nix-channel --update nixpkgs`. <nixpkgs>, not <nixos>. Wrong channel name for the default system channel :P.
<Shados> And also, if you're doing `nix-env -iA nixpkgs.falkon`, then it could maybe be using the nixpkgs channel rather than the nixos one? Although at least on my system, the way NIX_PATH is built, it should go to the nixos channel first regardless...
<Arahael> I'm still not entirely clear about these different sub-channels. :)
<Arahael> Yeah, I did 'nix-env -i falkon'.
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<Shados> They're not different, you just apparently have a channel called 'nixpkgs' in addition to the default system channel 'nixos'? Channel names are pretty arbitrary (user-specified). What's the output of `sudo nix-channel --list`?
<Arahael> That's the full list.
<Shados> So you don't actually have a nixpkgs channel? And I assume non-sudo `nix-channel --list` is empty?
<Arahael> Seems like it, though I didn't get any errors...
<Arahael> I just straced falkon, seems to be a conflict between:
<Arahael> /nix/store/gf5pscfi8j22d98wnhpzarxfrm40sibc-qtsvg-5.11.1/
<Shados> arahael: Yeah, you shouldn't get errors from nix-channel. You have the default channel setup (single system-wide default 'nixos' channel, no per-user channels).
<Arahael> And /nix/store/cj9hms8qjar7r8sc1yvwqdfnhifs4f0x-qtsvg-5.11.3-bin
<Arahael> Apparently, Qt likes to load plugins from whatever the user has in their environment, and "freaks out" if it even sees one it isn't compatible with.
<Shados> o.0, what's pulling the older one in?
<Arahael> Looks like quite a few Qt things.
<Arahael> nix-store --query --referrers /nix/store/gf5pscfi8j22d98wnhpzarxfrm40sibc-qtsvg-5.11.1 |wc -l
<Arahael> Gives 15
<Arahael> They look like things I probably installed manually using 'nix-env -i' at some point.
<Arahael> How do I upgrade "everything in my profile"?
<Shados> `nix-env -q` will show you current user env stuff
<Shados> `nix-env -u '*'` IIRC
<Arahael> That's saying stuff, including this line:
<Arahael> upgrading 'qt-full-5.11.1' to 'qt-full-5.11.3'
<Arahael> That's very promising!
<Shados> So you did have old qt in user env, that makes sense
<Arahael> Sucks that Qt is crap at handling this. :(
<Arahael> It should scream bloody murder, but then *ignore* the plugin.
<Shados> I wonder why we don't already have Qt configured to search in x.y.z-suffixed paths instead of generic, version-non-specific ones...
<Arahael> falkon works beautifully.
<Arahael> I like it, it'll be my preferred browser now :)
<Shados> Haha
<Shados> What was the qt user package you had installed btw?
<Shados> Oh right, falkon itself.
<Shados> What do you have in the system profile that is qt-based?
<Arahael> A couple of things, kdiff3, krusader, qemu...
<Arahael> Basically if it's something I want as part of my "system", I put it in the system profile. Otherwise, especially if I'm just checking out an application, I use nix-env -i
<Shados> Have you looked at home-manager?
<Arahael> No, and I don't think it's worth it. I really do just use it for temporary stuff, ie, "delete it in 10 minutes".
<Arahael> Plus, I usually use a mac as well.
<Arahael> (Maybe that's an argument for using home-manager to keep them in sync, but... Much of what I use on nixos won't work on the mac...)
<Shados> No no, I actually meant using home-manager for the more permanent things, if they're per-user stuff still
<Arahael> Well, I'm the only one using this, I use the system configuration for that.
<Arahael> For custom dev environments, I've started using nix-shell, though.
<Shados> You should take a look at lorri. lorri + dir-env can make for a very smooth dev environment experience, once you've got it set up
<Arahael> (Which is a bit nasty with python, sometimes. *sigh*... Python and their implicit dependencies...)
<Arahael> Hmm, intriguing.
<Arahael> I'm actually still troubleshooting what I should use on the mac, actually. xcodebuild is simply *awful*.
<Arahael> Don't think dir-env works well with fish.
<Shados> It does!
<Arahael> But nix-shell's are never pure when I use them on macos anyway, so anything project specific I just put into the default.nix I have for that project.
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<Ralith> direnv is good
<Ralith> especially as an interface to nix
<gchristensen> direnv is so good.
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<joepie91[m]> Shados: the point here is that we'd want something that allows arbitrary extension blocks, with relatively little maintenance. extending a commonmark parser syntactically would introduce quite a bit of maintenance, and why bother when MDX has already done this job?
<joepie91[m]> Shados: I also don't really see how "tying it to JSX" would be "bizarre". you're going to be tying it to *some* sort of specific format/extension, so why not use one that's pretty well-designed and well-tested in production?
<Shados> joepie91[m]: I'm slightly confused by "when MDX has already done this job". By "this job" you mean "allowing arbitrary extension blocks"?
<joepie91[m]> Shados: right. to a point where defining them is trivial and effectively zero-maintenance
<joepie91[m]> (since JSX is a stable format)
<Shados> OK. From what I could see, MDX is based on: 1) using a pluggable, JS-based markdown processor (remark), and 2) embedding JS logic into the markdown documents (as JSX). It is not obvious to me how either or both of those make writing our own extensions either trivial or low-maintenance. What were you envisaging?
<joepie91[m]> Shados: the sort of 'extension' that I mean, is things like blocks that are marked "this applies to NixOS only" (eg. https://aws1.discourse-cdn.com/standard14/uploads/nixos1/original/2X/4/4577c4a38679e8b850b25ea20cc5efea98b96813.png), which can be expressed entirely as a (logic-less) JSX "component"
<joepie91[m]> idem for things like interactive "try it in your browser" blocks if we ever want to do that
<joepie91[m]> essentially all the plumbing for defining custom blocks/tags is taken care of by the MDX implementation, and so the only 'maintenance' left is in actually defining the block/tag markup; not dissimilar to mediawiki templates
<joepie91[m]> (though with better-defined syntax than mediawiki templates :P)
<joepie91[m]> with eg. asciidoc it seems like there is no equivalent generic mechanism, and implementing such a block there would involve actually hooking into the parser/converter and writing custom logic for it
<joepie91[m]> against an API that may or may not change
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<Shados> joepie91[m]: I think my main concerns are:
<Shados> 3) Making Nix documentation depend on node and the npm infrastructure, is a large departure to the existing family of used languages, pulls in a hell of a lot of dependencies, and by extension increases the barrier to entry for the prospective doc writer.
<Shados> 2) The reliance of JSX on XML-style tagging is aesthetically displeasing in the middle of a markdown document (as inline html already is), and practically speaking somewhat confusing (because the parsing rules for XML and markdown are not even remotely similar, understanding how they combine and managing to get embedded XML to be readable within a larger document is daunting, to me).
<Shados> 1) Once we allow the ability to have arbitrary code inline, it will get abused and we'll end up with less comprehensible documentation sources.
<Shados> I'm not 100% sure what I would suggest, but from the things I've looked at thus far: probably mdBook, or if that is too high level, the markdown processor it is based on (pulldown-cmark).
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<joepie91[m]> Shados: the dependency argument is a particularly weak one, in the context of Nix, which is a *dependency manager*. abuse of inline code is quite simply handled: by disallowing it, and not letting it through review. as far as I can tell, the embedding rules are not particularly complex; and introducing custom syntax for extensions is going to create new rules to be aware of anyway, so I'd much rather that people learn
<joepie91[m]> pre-existing rules for a pre-existing system than something custom to Nix.
<joepie91[m]> I don't think aesthetics (different from ergonomics!) are a factor worth considering, for an authoring format.
<__monty__> Wasn't that the argument you used against docbook?
<joepie91[m]> and like I've said before, I'm open to alternative suggestions, if somebody can show that it can meet the extensibility and low-maintenance requirements, which I have not yet seen done for any format other than MDX
<joepie91[m]> no.
<joepie91[m]> my arguments against docbook are pretty well-summarized by that asciidoc page linked yestereday
<__monty__> I don't know of any longtime great docs in MDX. I *do* know about tons of venerable documentation in reST. Imo, the onus is on you to show that MDX is better than reST. Problem with markdown is all the various flavors. That means you end up relearning syntax every time (that's the worst part of mediawiki syntax), reST doesn't have flavors it's more similar wherever you find it.
<joepie91[m]> I feel like this discussion is rapidly headed towards unconstructive bikeshedding, considering that concrete examples/explanations for other formats are not forthcoming. so: I will just put together a prototype using MDX some time next week, and put that forward. if somebody feels that a different format is a better choice, they are free to put forward their respective prototype demonstrating how it can meet the
<joepie91[m]> requirements set out in the discussions over the past two days.
<joepie91[m]> we can keep arguing hypotheticals for weeks, but that isn't going to produce documentation.
<__monty__> Yes, so why not maintain the status quo until we can agree on an *improvement*?
<joepie91[m]> also, MDX is CommonMark, so format variety is not an argument.
<joepie91[m]> or well, a superset of.
<joepie91[m]> (obviously.)
<joepie91[m]> __monty__: because that isn't going to produce better documentation.
<joepie91[m]> my goal here is to build better documentation, not to spin wheels on IRC for weeks without any results.
<__monty__> Sur it is. You just need to live with having to write docbook or pandoc markdown to docbook.
<joepie91[m]> the current situation evidently doesn't work well, for pretty well-understood reasons, thus alternatives should be proposed.
<joepie91[m]> and the most pragmatic way of doing that is by prototyping them.
<joepie91[m]> __monty__: I'm not going to rehash that discussion, we've gone over this for hours yesterday here.
<joepie91[m]> (or was it the day before yesterday? I don't even remember)\
<joepie91[m]> again: I am not interested in bikeshedding.
<joepie91[m]> discussions have been had, it is no longer moving forward judging from the rehashing of already-discussed topics, so now comes the time to bring up concrete proposals and see which one suits the requirements best
<joepie91[m]> cc Shados, samueldr, gchristensen, and whoever I have forgotten who is interested in the docs stuff
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* gchristensen is at a Nix docs mini-event at ZuriHac right now
<joepie91[m]> (and to repeat, the requirements I had in mind here were: 1) an ergonomic *authoring* format, per the concerns that https://asciidoctor.org/docs/what-is-asciidoc/ explains, 2) extensibility, to be able to have eg. blocks that are marked as "this is for NixOS only", 3) either low meta-maintenance of the resulting setup, or a concrete commitment from somebody to maintain it in a timely manner as needed)
<__monty__> gchristensen: Maybe you can ask around what format most people would actually like to contribute docs in?
<gchristensen> I'm not talking tools today
<joepie91[m]> oh, and since this might have been missed by everybody I just highlighted... from me, a few minutes ago: "I will just put together a prototype using MDX some time next week, and put that forward. if somebody feels that a different format is a better choice, they are free to put forward their respective prototype demonstrating how it can meet the requirements set out in the discussions over the past two days."
<joepie91[m]> the "next week" is not a deadline or anything, at least, not for anybody but me :)
<joepie91[m]> I just want to move this forward in a constructive way
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<tilpner> Are there any good reasons for keeping the channel name difference of nixos vs nixpkgs, other than "it's hard to change now"?
<tilpner> Just makes support harder :/
<andi-> it isn't actually that hard to change as freenode supports forwarding users to other channels if they match a banmask..
<andi-> It is probably just a confusion not worth the hassel..
<tilpner> andi-: I meant <nixpkgs> and <nixos>, not #nixos and #nixpkgs :)
<tilpner> nixos.org-provided nixpkgs already has aliasing from <nixos> to <nixpkgs>
<andi-> ohh
<tilpner> (But not checkout from git, so it's a little inconsistent)
<andi-> it is rather weird as I often use <nixpkgs/nixos>
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<tilpner> This symlink is why NIX_PATH=https://nixos.org/channels/nixos-unstable/nixexprs.tar.xz nix-instantiate --find-file nixpkgs works
<tilpner> If all docs just referred to <nixpkgs>, <nixos> could slowly die
<tilpner> But I suspect good old nix-env will come along and spoil that
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<pie__> i _know_ that's not what he's saying but man do I feel like "we should make debugging as hard as possible" https://github.com/NixOS/nixpkgs/issues/62905
<{^_^}> #62905 (by deliciouslytyped, 5 days ago, open): Enable grub debug output by default
<pie__> clever, did you have a chance in the end to test what grub debug output looks like with your zfs tinkering?
<clever> pie__: not yet
<pie__> okie
<samueldr> "by default" is probably not a good idea, especially since some grub logging is intrusive in my experience
<samueldr> intrusive as in stopping automatic boot, stopping the user when changing menus
<pie__> hm ok :V that doesnt sound great
<samueldr> there is a middle ground between chattyness and debug messages
<samueldr> if we booted the kernel with loglevel 8 it would be like drinking from the firehose
<samueldr> (by default)
<clever> andi-: i use <nixpkgs/nixos> when i'm refering to the nixos subdir, and `<nixos>` at other times
<clever> despite <nixos/nixos> being identical
<clever> mostly just as a hint to others, that its a dir under nixpkgs
<samueldr> I think davidak does not want to remove all logging, but make it hidden unless there is something going wrong; iirc ubuntu and fedora do achieve that
<pie__> samueldr, id be fine with that
<pie__> my main frustration is "lol grub died i have a shitty grub rescue> fml wat do"
<samueldr> because, yeah, removing all logging is an issue! imagine if once something goes wrong we only showed "oopsie woopsie we made a fuckie"
<pie__> samueldr, as i was typing lol
<samueldr> pie__: though, maybe we could make it easier to install the debug-enabled version
<samueldr> from the installation media
<pie__> samueldr, care to comment on the issue? or i can just pipe your input
<samueldr> I will comment
<pie__> ty <3
<samueldr> I also wanted your input on a detail
<samueldr> I haven't yet checked
<samueldr> it looks like it's not a compile option, but a configuration option / installation option, right?
<samueldr> pie__: can you confirm or do you now exactly know?
<pie__> not sure, i think so
<samueldr> right
<pie__> i dont know besides some very basic googling
<samueldr> I'm wondering if we can cleanly "install" the EFI or MBR version of grub with debug printing without actively mounting the target system
<samueldr> in your case, ZFS+encryption would be annoying to mount it all :)
<pie__> oh crap, you have a point there
<pie__> i didnt even realize you need to load additional modules
<samueldr> ?
<samueldr> well, zfs is on the installation media now, so not too bad of an issue
<pie__> i mean the rescue prompt is _extremely_ limited
<samueldr> yeah
<pie__> there might not even be anything worth debugging
<samueldr> I was mainly thinking about doing it out-of-nixos, a helper script to swtich in place grub
<pie__> but i might be forgetting parts of how this works
<pie__> grub has to be able to find the zfs pool somehow, to load additional stuff, and thats where i could have used more debug info (assuming any exists)
<samueldr> yeah, with --debug-image it would install one with debug info
<pie__> does that mean i have an additional boot partition somewhere (i.e. that grub has all that luks and initial zfs functionality) or is the boot sector just big enough to fit all that ???
<samueldr> pie__: EFI or Legacy?
<pie__> efi
<samueldr> then it's just an EFI program
<samueldr> its size is not "important"
<pie__> i dont really know how that works
<samueldr> not like fitting in the gap betwen mbr and first partition
<pie__> like, if i have LUKS full disk encryption where does the boot stuff go
<samueldr> if you mount your ESP, it's a bog standard FAT partition
<pie__> i probably knew this and then forgot
<pie__> ok so i actually have a separate boot partition?
<samueldr> and in that FAT partition there are bog standard PE executables with .efi
<samueldr> not necessarily /boot (though it could have been), but the ESP, EFI System Partition
<samueldr> that's where the firwmare will load the bootloaders
<pie__> lol im a dummy
<samueldr> yeah, /efi in your case is likely it
<pie__> its definitely it
<samueldr> -> /efi/NixOS-boot/grubx64.efi
<pie__> i just kind of forgot for a bit there how this all works...which is massively frustrating because i spent a week on it
<samueldr> that's where nixos will install grub, unless you install as removable
<samueldr> and it will tell the firmware "look here for the bootloader for nixos"
<pie__> this is the whole deal with the "boot partition is not protected by encryption" so i should have figured
<samueldr> yep
<pie__> thanks for the review
<samueldr> I've been digging deeply into bootloader stuff since before I used NixOS, and been doing it more in-depth since working with NixOS, since it makes it all more fun :D
<pie__> hehe
<MichaelRaskin> It keeps it at the same level of fun; rolling back becomes way less annoying, though
<pie__> samueldr was just considering the net fun
<MichaelRaskin> fun - !!FUN!! ?
<pie__> the "ugh" factor
<samueldr> fun like making an allwinner board boot from EFI when the GPT would normally trample on the bootloader code the allwinner board wants to embed at a specific offset :)
<samueldr> "boot from EFI" meaning using u-boot's EFI capabilities
<pie__> oh that was you, i vaguely remember reading that in here
<samueldr> it's nice, on the pinebook, u-boot sets up the framebuffer well enough that grub is graphical
<samueldr> on other boards it ends up using the text mode
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<pie__> cool
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<jD91mZM2> I just discovered that the last ~4 days of debugging was because of an unstable branch I merged and forgot all about it. It was obvious if I would've just looked more closely at some logs. I must wish for a rubber duck for my next birthday so I can catch errors like these in the future. I have underestimated the power of the mighty rubber ducks.
<jD91mZM2> Completely random note. Just... y'know. Word of advice. Get a rubber duck before it's too late
<infinisil> jD91mZM2: I should make a debug diary, so I can look back and see how long I had to find bugs and what the original cause was
<pie__> infinisil, woke
<pie__> i should do that
<pie__> i kind of keep stuff in mind but i shouldnt do that because i forget everything
<pie__> infinisil, i really like the idea, sounds high effort though
<eyJhb> Quick shortcut to a md file, and you are good to go
<eyJhb> I just spent the day making a .. donut.. in Blender. And it is not pretty
<eyJhb> Neither is my mug
<samueldr> now, start again from scratch, still a day? :)
<eyJhb> Depends if I can use the same video tutorial! If I can't, prop two days
<joepie91[m]> eyJhb: following whatshisname? blender guru?
<pie__> but will it blend
<eyJhb> joepie91[m]: yes
<pie__> hey thats actually a pretty decent lookin mug
<joepie91[m]> :)
<eyJhb> But the problem is.. His is for 2.79, I am using 2.80.. And they have done a complete revamp of the UX
<pie__> i made a box once
<eyJhb> Like.. Nothing is where it used to be
<joepie91[m]> eyJhb: if you haven't watched his theory videos yet, I strongly recommend it - lots of interesting stuff about color theory and lighting etc.
<pie__> eyJhb, its suppposed to be easier andmore discoverable though i think?
<joepie91[m]> and pretty accessible
<pie__> i havent actually looked at 2.80 yet but hype hype hype i guess
<eyJhb> pie__: like this? https://i.imgur.com/EkkGYtP.png :p
<pie__> im not clicking because spoilers
<pie__> people have been complaining about the ux for a long time i hope it turned out good :D
<eyJhb> pie__: not if you are trying to follow a guide for the first time... :p
<pie__> mmmyeah
<eyJhb> joepie91[m]: properly will, if I get into it :D
<eyJhb> I really just wanted to be able to do my apartment...
<eyJhb> But I guess it is good to learn for 3d printing too, seeing as some use it for that as well
<joepie91[m]> eyJhb: you can watch them without prior blender knowledge :)
<joepie91[m]> eyJhb: also, is this an artistic or a pragmatic goal? the replicating your apartment
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<__monty__> Have there been improvements to using blender as CAD software?
<eyJhb> joepie91[m]: more a question of time :D - Pragmatic, want to see how things look etc. and try to see if I can "improve" upon my apartment. But also for fun!
<eyJhb> I had to go shopping after making this - https://i.imgur.com/n0MPffP.png and they put the donuts right at the entrace. Bastards
<eyJhb> __monty__: hmm.. Not quite sure. There are still the same addons I think
<pie__> probably better to use some house designey thing in that case?
<joepie91[m]> eyJhb: try `sweethome3d` in nixpkgs (there are a few different things, so `nix search` it first)
<eyJhb> But none of the arcitecture students at AAU use blender...
<eyJhb> Couldn't find anything that really worked well.. sweethome3d was.. Laggy to say the least
<__monty__> eyJhb: Oh but it's been years since I've used blender.
<eyJhb> Was no joy using at all
<joepie91[m]> eyJhb: site = http://www.sweethome3d.com/index.jsp
<pie__> eyJhb, you mean it did not bring joy
<eyJhb> pie__: it did not. :p
<eyJhb> #58061 :p
<{^_^}> https://github.com/NixOS/nixpkgs/pull/58061 (by eyJhb, 12 weeks ago, merged): sweethome3d: 6.0 -> 6.1.2
<eyJhb> Tried it 12 weeks ago I guess
<joepie91[m]> oh lol
<joepie91[m]> cat on top of car: https://i.imgur.com/nPJ3HsD.jpg
<joepie91[m]> (stole that joke from elsewhere)
<pie__> pff
<eyJhb> I think that violates the cat weight limit where I live
<samueldr> for a floorplan, I use inkscape
<samueldr> does not handle 3D space, but was able to test different plans often in the past few years
<samueldr> with only a few centimeters clearance overall
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