gchristensen changed the topic of #nixos-chat to: NixOS but much less topical || https://logs.nix.samueldr.com/nixos-chat
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<elvishjerricco> gchristensen: Any chance of publicizing the rate of https://nixos.org/nix/install hits? Not a great metric, but it'd be interesting to see how that number is growing
<gchristensen> hmm no idea
<gchristensen> elvishjerricco: I'll ask around :)
<elvishjerricco> gchristensen: How hard was it to get macOS working in a VM? I want to upgrade to Mojave, but I want to test that my nix projects work on it first, so I want to make a VM and test there first.
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<etu> 67 clients now
<jasongrossman> etu: What I meant, of course, was most of us who are actually reading not just logged in in the background.
<etu> :)
<kittyAlana> Hurd is really sad. If GNU dropped Hurd when it was ahead and focused on creating a truly libre Linux (not that linux-libre crust) we would have actually free OSes now lol
<sphalerite> jasongrossman: I like how you only said that in here ;)
<jasongrossman> LOL
<jasongrossman> Which reminds me, I can't find the IRC command to list who's in a room.
<sphalerite> /list ?
<sphalerite> /names ?
<sphalerite> it depends on your client
<sphalerite> I think.
<jasongrossman> Yes /names - thanks.
<etu> names is the name of the command in IRC
<etu> like in the protocol
<jasongrossman> I want to ++ you but I think the bot is shared across channels, right?
<etu> kittyAlana: Sometimes most of us needs to be pragmatic
<etu> kittyAlana: RMS doesn't
<jasongrossman> kittyAlana: Certainly agree with you about Hurd. GNU ls is great, though!
* etu like gnu coreutils
<sphalerite> jasongrossman: it is
<etu> likes*
<sphalerite> I mean, a ++ here will count in #nixos too.
<jasongrossman> Also of course this is a discussion about the quality of individual items of GNU software, but we could also consider the very good effect of GNU in keeping other org honest.
<kittyAlana> also GNU software are all just *worse* their counterparts. GPG < Signify/Minisign/LITERALLY EVERYTHING ELSE; GCC < Clang; Emacs < Vim; and GIMP's name is literally a slur
<jasongrossman> sphalerite: You don't deserve a NixOS ++ for giving me an IRC command, sadly.
<sphalerite> lol
<etu> haha
<jasongrossman> kittyAlana: I SAID we didn't have rules about politics, but Emacs vs Vim might be beyond the pail.
<kittyAlana> also GNU style is a crime against humanity
<etu> kittyAlana: There's quite many Emacs-users that use NixOS ;)
<etu> just saying
<sphalerite> kittyAlana: I'm not sure I agree on emacs < vim. I'm a long-time vim user and am trying to switch, because emacs seems like more of a thought-out design as opposed to organically-grown, uh, ball of mud
<sphalerite> UI/API-wise
<kittyAlana> jasongrossman: You can have your preferences, but emacs is more buggy heavier and has objectively, significantly higher latency. IIRC also less portable. It's technologically worse. There are still reason to use it over Vim but yuck.
<jasongrossman> sphalerite: It's a good time to switch, because vi emulation in Emacs is rock solid at the moment. (Or so I've heard lots of people insist. Haven't tried it myself.)
<jasongrossman> kittyAlana: Ahem. I wasn't promoting Emacs. Sheesh. I WAS saying that I don't think it's a good topic.
<kittyAlana> I switched from Emacs to Vim; Vim better.
<kittyAlana> jasongrossman: yeah but my point remains like... it's badly written software even if it's great
<jasongrossman> kittyAlana: "my point remains" - seriously?
<sphalerite> in fact what I actually want to switch to is spacemacs, but I haven't tried it yet because it's not nicely configurable with nixpkgs like emacs is
<jasongrossman> Can we boot people for not listening?
<kittyAlana> Ouch I would be sad
<sphalerite> Let's not start a flame war, this isn't the 90s!
<jasongrossman> LLOL
<kittyAlana> I wasn't alive in the 90s
<LnL> sphalerite: blasphemy!
<sphalerite> LnL: I mean a flame war about vim vs emacs
<jasongrossman> sphalerite: Right, I think anyone who likes Nix would TOTALLY hate spacemacs, for a whole bunch of configurability reasons.
<kittyAlana> the best text editor is Vim emulated in Emacs emulated in Electron. Don't @ me.
<jasongrossman> LLOL
<sphalerite> kittyAlana: @
<infinisil> I'm using both vim and emacs
<kittyAlana> oh oh oh I forgot
<kittyAlana> GNU Social < Mastodon
<sphalerite> lol
<infinisil> vim for quick stuff to edit, emacs when I want a more IDE like experience and I don't mind the slower start and such
<sphalerite> I lack information to comment on that
<jasongrossman> Yes but Gnu Antisocial is **excellent**. (I'm sure it is, if there is such a thing.)
<jasongrossman> Actually I regret that easy dig.
<LnL> sphalerite: a bit late, but was about you trying to switch to emacs
<kittyAlana> I've used both and GAWD Mastodon is amazing
<jasongrossman> jasongrossman--
<kittyAlana> btw I literally copy-pasted Leah Rowe's vimrc and it's magic
<LnL> sphalerite: but I get where you're coming from, I also tried emacs/spacemacs at some point
<sphalerite> LnL: oh right
<sphalerite> VimL is an abomination.
<LnL> that's an understatement
<LnL> :p
<infinisil> jasongrossman: Try ++'ing yourself :P
<etu> etu++
<{^_^}> etu's karma got decreased to 3
<etu> haha
<etu> nice
<etu> infinisil: good one
<etu> jasongrossman: increment me now since I took one for the team ;)
<infinisil> Asking for karma eh?
<infinisil> etu++
<{^_^}> etu's karma got increased to 4
<etu> infinisil: naah, just restoration ;)
<sphalerit> sphalerite++
<{^_^}> sphalerite's karma got increased to 29
<sphalerite> sphalerit++
<{^_^}> sphalerit's karma got increased to 2
<sphalerite> go team smurf!
<kittyAlana> ok team
<kittyAlana> I'm installing NixOS now
<sphalerite> \o/
<kittyAlana> well
<etu> kittyAlana: Have fun!
<kittyAlana> now as in after the dd completes
<kittyAlana> thanks <3
<etu> kittyAlana: Don't be afraid to ask questions :-)
<kittyAlana> ok! <3 Honestly I've spent so long to settle on an OS cuz
<kittyAlana> It's been like two months since I forgot the FDE password to my 7570 and needed a new OS
<kittyAlana> and I kept putting it off cuz i didnt know what OS I wanted to install
<etu> Nix is different and you'll have stuff to learn
<jasongrossman> kittyAlana: I predict you'll either love it or hate it. Hopefully you'll love it.
<sphalerite> don't install nixos, just netboot it and use the fixed storage only for $HOME :D
<sphalerite> jasongrossman: I think hate is quite rare, but frequently it's "love but recognise all the faults. But still love."
<infinisil> Nixos was actually my first Linux, switched directly from macOS
<jasongrossman> sphalerite: I hope you're right but I wouldn't be so sure. I bet a lot of people try it briefly, hate it, and we never hear from them.
<jasongrossman> infinisil: Wow. That must be unusual.
<sphalerite> jasongrossman: hm true
<infinisil> Heh, just received a message by a creator I just started supporting on Patreon: "Thanks for your support! That dollar is going to take me places!"
<infinisil> Can't help but feel a slight touch of sarcasm
<infinisil> But a dollar is probably much more than creators would make from my youtube views :)
<kittyAlana> lol
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<srhb> sphalerite: I know you were joking but re netboot... That would be neat if only it were simpler to have a remote store on NixOS :P
<srhb> One of the few very tangible benefits of Nix-on-other-OS
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<sphalerite> srhb: not really joking
<sphalerite> improving netboot is on my long-term todo list
<srhb> sphalerite: Happy to hear that :D
<Taneb> I found the sheet of paper where I wrote my ideas for improving the state of Agda in nixpkgs
<sphalerite> I mean, I was jokingly saying kittyAlana should do it :D but in general that's something I want possible
<srhb> Yeah it would be really nice
<srhb> I think especially the datascience cluster people would be elated to have a better solution for that.
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<gchristensen> elvishjerricco: not hard at all. https://github.com/kholia/OSX-KVM/tree/master/HighSierra I followed these instructions. Not sure if they work for Mojave
<srhb> Strange. When I set arc_max it appears that it also becomes the new target size always. Was this always the case?
<gchristensen> I think ZFS does like to keep it filled up
<gchristensen> cache isn't very useful empty, after all
<jasongrossman> My ZFS doesn't keep it filled up, but that's because I've got too much memory and it runs out of things to put there.
<gchristensen> hahahaha
<gchristensen> there you go, srhb, just get _way_ more RAM.
<srhb> :|
<srhb> I just upgraded to 32 GiB yesterday! augh!
<srhb> I think I identified that it's because the target is still set to half my memory, so with max set to 10, target will be at max.
<srhb> This is super annoying, because latency spikes all over the place when target hits max (which is all the time with those settings)
<maurer> srhb: If you are using spinning rust drives, you could consider getting an SSD and enabling L2ARC
<srhb> I am not. It's an NVME drive.
<srhb> NVME SSD, that is.
<srhb> ZFS is just behaving very poorly when target = max.
<gchristensen> ohhh yes that makes sense
<srhb> I could work around this by setting max slightly above half my memory, but I would prefer not to, as I have builds that will fail to allocate with the ARC taking up that much space.
<srhb> What I _want_ to do is set the target loewr.
<gchristensen> can you?
<srhb> I haven't figured out how to yet...
<srhb> And, like, every resource for ZoL seems to imply that max is always the way to go, but that's such obvious misinformation in the case where max < half of memory.
<srhb> For solaris max is even deprecated in favor of setting a percentage hint to the target...
<srhb> Weird!
<jasongrossman> It is weird. I've given up trying to get it to do anything ... but you're probably more persistent than I am.
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<srhb> Nah, I'll just wait for a proper OS to come out. I have patience, I've waited for 30 years now. Maybe throw some money at the bcachefs patreon :P
<srhb> Er, proper FS*
<gchristensen> have you tried asking in #zfsonlinux?
<srhb> I have, still waiting for someone to turn up who knows. :)
<gchristensen> give 'em a bit of time, it is not even working hours in California yet :)
<srhb> Yas, I know. Current client is in Calif. I have patience, but often #nixos-foo beats everything out there :-P
<gchristensen> sooo true
<gchristensen> y'all are stinkin' amazing
<srhb> ++
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<grokkingStuff> Hi there! Could someone help me install NixOS on my laptop. Been trying to use nixos-install but it complains that it can't make symlinks
<sir_guy_carleton> grokkingStuff: what is the exact error?
<grokkingStuff> cannot chmod 1777 /nix/.../userprofiles
<grokkingStuff> Let me boot from scratch to give you a clean system to play with
<clever> grokkingStuff: is it being ran as root?, does dmesg show anything? what fs is mounted?
<grokkingStuff> so i've mounted the harddisks (boot and actual storage space)
<grokkingStuff> Followed the official instructions till nixos-install
<grokkingStuff> clever: yeah, livecd runs everything as root
<clever> grokkingStuff: what FS is the rootfs?
<grokkingStuff> fat32
<clever> fat32 doesnt support chmod
<grokkingStuff> so i have /mnt is fat32 /mnt/boot is ext4
<grokkingStuff> trying to dualboot windows and nixos
<grokkingStuff> what would you recommend I do instead?
<clever> the linux rootfs must not be fat32
<clever> flip those arround, /mnt/boot be fat32, and /mnt be ext4
<grokkingStuff> alright, so I'll switch it to ext4 and it should work?
<grokkingStuff> righto
<sir_guy_carleton> yeah, what what i've been using for dual booting
<grokkingStuff> hmmm, alright, doing so now
<grokkingStuff> it's installing!
<grokkingStuff> Thanks clever!
<grokkingStuff> Okay, I have another issue :(
<grokkingStuff> my wifi drivers keep failing after 5 minutes
<grokkingStuff> it seems like the interface itself disappears
<grokkingStuff> restarting NetworkManager doesn't do anything
<grokkingStuff> clever: could you help me out on this one?
<sphalerite> grokkingStuff: anything interesting in the journal? (journalctl -e)
<clever> grokkingStuff: does the card appear in iwconfig?
<grokkingStuff> iwconfig isn't found
<grokkingStuff> sphalerite: can't see anything weird
<grokkingStuff> ifconfig just shows loopback
<grokkingStuff> it initially connected to wlp1s0 but it dropped for some reason
<clever> grokkingStuff: what about `ifconfig -a` ?
<grokkingStuff> still showing only the loopback
<grokkingStuff> It's weird, I can't even get ethernet to work
<clever> grokkingStuff: what about dmesg?
<grokkingStuff> It says wlps10 is not ready
<grokkingStuff> link is not ready
<clever> grokkingStuff: what about `cat /proc/net/wireless` ?
<grokkingStuff> shows just the headers :(
<clever> then you have no wireless cards present currently
<clever> what bus is the card on? pci? usb? pcie?
<grokkingStuff> yeah, which is the weird part
<grokkingStuff> let me check, it's a surface pro 2017
<grokkingStuff> pcie apparently
<grokkingStuff> not too sure about it
<clever> lspci should list it then
<grokkingStuff> yup, it shows up as Marvell
<clever> it mentions some custom firmware to fix it
<grokkingStuff> but the wifi worked initially?
<clever> ,locate mwifiex-firmware
<{^_^}> Couldn't find in any packages
<clever> "Note: The default driver works fine for some, but not for others, to install the Marvell Driver, follow the instructions here: Link"
<clever> no sign of that firmware in nixpkgs
<grokkingStuff> righto, transferring it via usb
<clever> nixos also wont let you impurely load firmware like that
<grokkingStuff> welp. so what can i do?
<clever> one sec
<clever> grokkingStuff: create a directory somewhere containing a lib/firmware/stuff.bin
<clever> and then add hardware.firmware = [ /path/to/it ]; in your configuration.nix
<clever> to be exact, the firmware would be in /path/to/it/lib/firmware/
<clever> and based on the pastebin linked from reddit, the firmware would be in /path/to/it/lib/firmware/mrvl/
<grokkingStuff> alright, i think i've got that down
<clever> a more proper method, would be to have a nix derivation that clones that repo (fetchgit) and then copies files to $out/lib/firmware
<grokkingStuff> umm, i can't edit configuration.nix
<grokkingStuff> something about the filesystem being full
<clever> df -h /
<grokkingStuff> yeah /mnt is fully used for somereason
<grokkingStuff> think it's only 500 mb
<clever> how bit is the /mnt partition?
<clever> that would be your problem!
<grokkingStuff> 500 mb
<grokkingStuff> yeah, will fix it. Would something bigger suffice, like 1 gb?
<grokkingStuff> i think i'm getting /mnt and /mnt/boot mixed up here
<clever> you need at least 2 or 3gig for nixos to reasonably fit
<grokkingStuff> which one should be bigger?
<clever> /mnt should be the bigger one
<grokkingStuff> ah, that's the problem
<grokkingStuff> give me a sec
<clever> you usually need 512mb of 1gig for /boot
<clever> and then everything else on /mnt
<grokkingStuff> almost done
<grokkingStuff> alright, edited the configuration.nix file
<grokkingStuff> and saved
<grokkingStuff> holy shit it's working
<grokkingStuff> downloaded everything in the little span of time in which the wifi worked
<grokkingStuff> Thank you clever!
<clever> your welcome :)
<grokkingStuff> :)
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<srhb> I forgot how much abuse and sarcasm you have to take just to fully flesh out your question in other channels. Woo, elitism. Brilliant. :P
<rain2> I thought I was the only one who felt that way
<gchristensen> srhb: nooo question. #nixos-* is _so_ warm and welcoming.
<gchristensen> I'm surprised https://www.fpcomplete.com/blog/2018/10/is-rust-functional claims you can't make user-defined functions in XSLT
<andi-> Also just read that.. Same thoughts.. It has been 10y since I played with it tho.
<gchristensen> I went ahead and asked https://twitter.com/grhmc/status/1053038764820504577
<andi-> Haven't checked the spec but maybe they are subroutines for them/him/her/..?
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<gchristensen> yeah but that list includes C and Javascript as being functional :)
<andi-> True..
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<andi-> I had the "pleasure" of writing "functional" typescript today. Pipe map filter undefined..
<gchristensen> at least it was typescript :X
<joepie91> not sure I'd consider that an "at least"...
<joepie91> it kinda has a worst-of-both-worlds problem :P
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<andi-> Yeah
<joepie91> it has a type system that isn't especially good or useful, but that's restrictive enough to disallow (or make significantly harder) most of the good practices toward code quality in JS...
<andi-> I almost start screaming when I see a language that at some point realized they need ===
<simpson> andi-: Do you scream when you see languages with user-definable equality?
<gchristensen> I'm going to stick to "at least"
<gchristensen> at least there are rules
<joepie91> rules are not an inherently good thing :P
<andi-> simpson: no, but that's better then enforcing things like a.is equal(b)
<joepie91> I'd certainly pick JS over TS any day
<gchristensen> I wouldn't, but okay
<gchristensen> and okay*
<simpson> andi-: How do you feel about, say, Haskell's Eq typeclass?
<andi-> I also prefer TS > JS, at least if I have to work with people
<andi-> simpson: very simple: I don't know Haskell (anymore). Did it once during my studies for not even a semester..
<simpson> andi-: Mm. The takeaway is that any time users can define equality, they can get it wrong. Have you read Baker's paper on object equality? http://home.pipeline.com/~hbaker1/ObjectIdentity.html
<andi-> simpson: No i haven't the way a brief google search explained it to me (still on crappy mobile, omw home) is that i can probably be compared to traits in Rust where there can be a "custom" implementation for each type and you might not get what you want without being explicit?
<simpson> Right. In particular there are no equality laws being enforced.
<simpson> In contrast, when a language provides equality as a primitive, it can also require that `x == x`, etc.
<andi-> My main concern about === is that it is counter intuitive. == should be the less strict equality (e.g values behind the references are the same) while === should be IS THE SAME (e.g. same memory).
<andi-> And I'd argue &a == &b would be better suited for the same address comparison
<simpson> Why should "same memory" be a thing?
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<andi-> I am not thinking in haskell. More thinking about what it would be like in C++. I'd provide a custom `==` implementation for my `Person` type that recurses through attributes etc.. While per default it wouldn't be implemented for every type.
<andi-> Maybe the right take away would be that I do not like standard equality operators for custom/complex-ish types..
<andi-> because it is not what you want in many cases..
<simpson> My point is largely that C++ is already fucked.
<simpson> One needs objects first, and *then* object equality.
<simpson> And sure, many objects aren't meant to be compared ever; those objects really just want `x == x` and nothing else.
<gchristensen> btw simpson you have cursed me, I can't examine a language without thinking about if I can prevent ("allow") a function to do impure things.
<andi-> It is a bit bikeshedding what the correct approach is... There are way too many opinions (and languages) involved ;-) I just think it smeels if a language needs to introduce === because a few years later they learn that their equality operator doesn't do what everyone wants.
<gchristensen> +1
<simpson> gchristensen: Happy to help! It's 2018 and we should demand more from languages.
<jackdk> but what shall we do in 2019?
<andi-> I have had that when we designed the (now canceled; unrelated) product that I was working on... It was alreayd a hard sell to people... Probably cost me a few years of energy.
<gchristensen> jackdk: probably more javascript
<simpson> jackdk: Continue to infiltrate and alter ES until it's a decent capability-aware language, probably.
<samueldr> yet to do today: write your second XSL
<samueldr> right?
<samueldr> :)
<gchristensen> yeah, I've been thinking about that. it is hard, because making the output of nix-build ./nixpgks/doc look like nixos.org's docs means duplicating a lot of nixos.org code
<samueldr> if the output already looks right, then the code can migrate?
<samueldr> unless I'm missing something
<andi-> gchristensen: nice.. I looked at it when browser started having the support and people where all hiped about rendering websites using xslt in browser.. Used it for a bit of data massaging after that... These days I'd need a JSON-SLT or such (no jq isn't really what I want either..)
<gchristensen> the code is used for many things, not just docs
<simpson> jq might not be what you want, but it could be what you need.
<simpson> If you can't do it in 50 lines of jq, then I wonder how many lines of Python it'd take~
<andi-> JQs silent failing or producing empty results is what I dislike there
<andi-> but that can also be me not having wasted^Wspent enough time there
<samueldr> gchristensen: though, I wasn't trying to imply anything with my idle jab; only playing on the formulation of "your first" xsl :)
<gchristensen> samueldr: I know :)
<clever> apple is claiming that used apple batteries are fakes, and having them seized at the border
<clever> because the batter has the apple logo, and its a "knock-off"
<__monty__> Wow
<__monty__> Why do people just bend over and take it from big brands?
<simpson> I don't know; it personally deeply confuses me that people purchase Apple.
<simpson> (I say this while typing on my employer's Apple laptop. What a terrible, expensive experience.)
<__monty__> Apple got popular when they went from having things "just work" to making fashion items.
<__monty__> They give the people what they want.
<__monty__> In a very literal sense.
<simpson> You're spot-on; Apple's a fashion company.
<__monty__> It's too bad because it's a decent-ish BSD.
<drakonis_> rly not a pure bwd
<drakonis_> bsd
<drakonis_> its mach
<drakonis_> mach with some bsd bits
<gchristensen> clever: ouch.
<samueldr> it was a decent unix (with compliance) and never really evolved in that matter :/
<clever> ive said it before, your not paying for the hardware or software, your paying for the brand name
<samueldr> true since a while, but for a while before it had something for it :(
<jasongrossman> I wish I agreed that Apple was just a fashion company, because I really dislike them politically, but I can say a lot of very good things about their UX design.
<jasongrossman> But it's OK, because this year is the year of the Linux desktop!
<gchristensen> and their hw lasts a long time it seems
<samueldr> and I don't think it's something that happened at a specific moment, but mostly gradually along the way
<gchristensen> I still have two very useful laptops from 2013 and earlier
<jasongrossman> (For anyone younger than me, that's a joke because people say that every year.)
<drakonis_> jasongrossman: next year is
<andi-> jasongrossman: but this time it is true!
<drakonis_> wine finally owns
<samueldr> jasongrossman: but this year IS the year of the linux desktop
<jasongrossman> gchristensen: I have um I've lost count but I think five MacBooks from 2012, and nothing more recent.
<jasongrossman> drakonis_: Right.
<drakonis_> Run all these games at full speed
<samueldr> gchristensen: friend of mine has as IIRC 2015 era macbook, once the battery is toast the perfs go down the drain :(
<samueldr> the moment you put back a working battery, it magically works right again
<gchristensen> huh
<samueldr> batteries you can't get anymore genuine parts
<samueldr> (at least, he couldn't)
<samueldr> (I probably got the year wrong)
<jasongrossman> IMO, mid 2012 is the sweet spot for Apple laptops.
<jasongrossman> For that reason.
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<samueldr> apparently isn't just for that generation
<gchristensen> I wonder if that is true if you run macos on linux on an apple laptop
<samueldr> it probably hates you for it
<samueldr> :)
<gchristensen> if they weren't so hostile to automation I wouldn't do it :P
<__monty__> I disagree about apple's UX. It used to be good now it's a shitshow. Add to that things like I couldn't get finder to connect to an nfs server earlier today and their updates regularly going spectacularly wrong for me lately. Upgrade the system, end up with an unbootable system...
<joepie91> to be fair, *every* year is the year of the Linux desktop!
<jackdk> it's certainly the year of linux on my desktops
<drakonis_> we're closer
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