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<supersandro2000>
if your dotfiles are so full of custom stuff and half broken that neither git maintaince, nixpkgs-review or the default nix installer worked today
<supersandro2000>
clearing your PATH in your bashrc or overwriting crontab with a function is just a bit much for most programs out there
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<samueldr>
how else would things get executed, abathur?
<abathur>
yeah
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<siraben>
how do I install a python library without pip in a derivation?
<siraben>
manual is unclear
<abathur>
IDK, but I'm imagining it's like, "exec blah" -> script stops -> google "how to I run a bash command in the background" -> "exec blah &" -> profit?
<siraben>
"Make sure the Calcium library and its dependencies are built and in the path of the system's dynamic library loader. Then make sure that ``<calcium_source_dir>/pycalcium`` is in the Python path, for example by adding it to ``PYTHONPATH``, adding it to ``sys.path``, or simply starting Python inside the ``pycalcium`` directory."
<eyJhb>
srhb: Nixus is nice :D Quite like it so far. And also just the simplicity
<supersandro2000>
that rms debate is getting really interesting and to a next level
<supersandro2000>
hold on, I don't wannt write about rms
<supersandro2000>
a pro rms website appeared https://rms-support-letter.github.io/ and if you read into it a bit and my translations are not wrong than it doesn't even matter anymore what rms did or not
<supersandro2000>
or what he thinks or not
<supersandro2000>
because if people truly support statements such as
<supersandro2000>
> Regardless, Stallman’s opinions on the matters he is being persecuted over are not relevant to his ability to lead a community such as the FSF.
<{^_^}>
error: syntax error, unexpected ',', expecting ')', at (string):492:11
<Ke>
yes, bot knows it's absurd
<supersandro2000>
or > Members and supporters do not have to agree with his opinions
<supersandro2000>
its like I don't know what to say.
<supersandro2000>
if you fundamentally do not agree with a leader of a community you have two choices: leave the community or find a new leader
<supersandro2000>
and if you are accused of things which can get you multiple years into prison it really matters if that is true or not because if it is true you can't lead a movement that is into politics
<supersandro2000>
especially not movements that agree that such laws are legitimate
<supersandro2000>
to be honest this is more like a religious movement at this point...
<Ke>
well it was FSF even before this latest thing
<Ke>
in general I don't see FSF having much visibility anyway, feels like it's more for "old unix people"
<supersandro2000>
I hope so
<supersandro2000>
because I personally have a would have a very big problem if fsf had much visibility
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<red[evilred]>
That whole situation is a shitshow
<red[evilred]>
I'm all about forgiveness and atonement... but you could tell from his body language and the language he used he really didn't care about anything
<red[evilred]>
They're trying to avoid the Free Software Fork
<supersandro2000>
😂
<supersandro2000>
well, I hope that most great people already forked
<Ke>
I think the culture is much more doing nowadays than talking ideologu
<Ke>
ideology
<Ke>
so people care about distros and companies and executing foundations do stuff in the background
<Ke>
or just put stuff on github and forget even to add proper license and copyright
<joepie91>
supersandro2000: regarding that support letter, the most telling part IMO is this bit: "Historically, RMS has been expressing his views in ways that upset many people. [...] His words need to be interpreted in this context and taking into account that more often than not, he is not looking to put things diplomatically."
<joepie91>
in plain English, "yes he makes people angry, deal with it, it's not his responsibility to avoid that"
<joepie91>
(though if there was any lingering doubt, the "evil SJW mob!" sentiments sprinkled throughout the rest of the letter pretty much seal the deal)
<joepie91>
it's also quite interesting how they're using the "it's just a polite debate, why are you getting angry, this other guy is being perfectly courteous" argument structure that's often used to defend bigoted statements and discredit people calling out abusive commentary... except in this case, the person being defended *isn't* even courteous or polite
<siraben>
joepie91: the letter also talks about how his arguments are vulnerable to misunderstanding and misrepresentation when placed out of context
<siraben>
select the right quotes and one could make RMS look as bigoted as one wants
<joepie91>
I have read the letter
<joepie91>
the problem is not one of misrepresentation
<joepie91>
and frankly, when one starts using the typical argument structures for defending abuse, I very quickly lose interest in whatever else they have to say
<siraben>
Who is he abusing? Is that not subject to interpretation?
<joepie91>
I'm guessing you haven't read the original open letter and referenced resources.
<siraben>
I have, the one that seems most ridiculous is labelling his per/pers recommended pronouns as transphobia
<ldlework>
> and frankly, when one starts using the typical argument structures for defending abuse, I very quickly lose interest in whatever else they have to say
<joepie91>
if you've read it, then your question has been answered
<{^_^}>
error: syntax error, unexpected ',', expecting ')', at (string):492:12
<ldlework>
jesus..
<joepie91>
and while discussion is certainly possible around specific allegations, that's something very different from asking "who is he abusing?" as if this is a question that noone has answered yet
<joepie91>
ldlework: believe me, the same thing is most likely true for nearly everyone who has had to deal with abuse and recovered from it, I'm just taking the time to state it explicitly
<joepie91>
when someone uses those argument structures, their intention is to manipulate, not to have a good-faith discussion on equal ground
<siraben>
abuse seems like an exaggerated term to describe his actions
<joepie91>
this affects the trustworthiness of everything else they say
<joepie91>
siraben: those who are victims of it certainly appear to believe differently.
<joepie91>
when something like this happens, there are roughly two things you can do: 1) try to understand the experiences that people have gone through and how it has affected them, and whether this would have been reasonably preventable, or 2) try to find ways to trivialize people's experiences and ways to argue that it can't have been that bad
<joepie91>
there's no prize for guessing which of those approaches makes for open season for abusers
<ldlework>
> when someone uses those argument structures, their intension is to manipulate, not to have good-faith discussions on equal-groundt
<{^_^}>
error: syntax error, unexpected ',', expecting ')', at (string):492:44
<ldlework>
someone who didn't already agree with might reasonably contend that that kind of rhetoric merely aims to side-step any discussion at all and merely disenfranchise those who disagree with you by undermining their credibility to hold that discourse in the first place
<joepie91>
as they should, when said "discussion" is started in bad faith.
<joepie91>
noone has an obligation to engage in a discussion presented by someone else.
<joepie91>
it's up to the person starting the discussion to do so in good faith, in such a way that other people feel it a productive endeavour to involve themselves with it
<ldlework>
can't we just accuse the people we disagree with of using "bad-faith argument structures that defend abuse" anytime we want
<joepie91>
refusing to have a discussion that has not been started in good faith is a 100% valid thing to do
<joepie91>
ldlework: we can also accuse people we disagree with of being giraffes. chances are that it's not gonna be taken seriously unless they indeed look and behave like a giraffe.
<joepie91>
you can take any sort of accusation to a hypothetical extreme, but that does not affect every instance of said accusation
<joepie91>
or to put it more bluntly: abuse victims know how to spot an abuser.
<gchristensen>
yeah, this is why ofborg pretty much has to be a thing ...
<sterni>
don't we have a github action building the release tarball now?
<sterni>
how do they not run out of ram
<gchristensen>
I don't think we have a github action building the release tarball
<sterni>
yeah mixed it up
<sterni>
the manual only
<Ke>
what does release tarball contain?
<Ke>
one binary cache generation?
<sterni>
Ke: plain nixpkgs afaik but it runs a lot of evaluation checks before actually building it
<sterni>
which is the expensive part
<Ke>
ah
<Ke>
like just git archive with checks and decorations?
<siraben>
joepie91: you took "who is he abusing?" and replied with an argument from incredulity, and instead of clarifying what the answer is, you just undermined my ability to even ask questions, much less contribute to the discussion, by accusing me of bad-faith and questioning my motivations, such that anything more I say will merely reinforce your notion of "bad-faith argument structures that defend abuse"
<siraben>
and to be clear, I do not defend abuse which you accuse me of.
<siraben>
that is all I wish to say
<joepie91>
siraben: your entire *question* of "who is he abusing" was incredulous to begin with. this question was already answered by the very thing that started the drama. and if someone chooses to disregard that and the possibility of its validity, then yes, I am going to point out that I'm suspicious of the person approaching the discussion like that, because I'm not seeing any genuine attempt to understand the abuse problem - and
<joepie91>
because this attitude shelters abusers, *whether intentionally or not*.
<joepie91>
it would have been much more reasonable, for example, to start out with "I've read the accusations, and I don't really understand why this is considered abuse?"
<ldlework>
honestly that sounds like "if you don't immediately legitimize my position on the matter as true, then you have bad faith" ' I'm not seeing any genuine attempt to understand the abuse problem ', notice how you demand the accept your presuppositions or he's a maligned malintent? "I've read the accusations", you're just prescribing over his own authorship demanding it rise to some arbitrary
<ldlework>
standard that satisfies your ability to not lash out and debase them in conversation.
<sterni>
Ke: yeah since it is what generates the nixexprs.tar.xz shipped in channels, so it should at least evaluate cleanly, so the worst users of channels can have are build failures
<adisbladis>
But adds a native messaging thing so it can be activated externally
<adisbladis>
Will add refresh cycles later
<adisbladis>
And a better IPC than unix signals :P
<adisbladis>
But for now I made with the lowest effort solution
<adisbladis>
s/made/went/
<adisbladis>
And possibly some style overrides for websites which do things that they shouldn't... Like building important UI bits with div's that has background colour..
<adisbladis>
I think I prefer browsing without colours regardless
<adisbladis>
The web is so much less distracting like this
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<aaronjanse>
I've wanted to figure out how to make x11 show everything greyscale
<aaronjanse>
I'd like for it to do that at night (which is what my phone does)
<adisbladis>
aaronjanse: As I've experienced that's not good enough for e-ink
<gchristensen>
set to grayscale then make maximize contrast
<adisbladis>
gchristensen: It's hard to use a lot of websites like that though
<gchristensen>
yeah I believe it, hehe
<adisbladis>
Much better to just disable colours entirely ^_^
<adisbladis>
Also had to change my prompt to make it more e-ink friendly
<adisbladis>
Used to have dark background colour on that thing
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<hexa->
uhm yeah, because that is less straining than a bright white background
<hexa->
but with eink that goes away, no?
<adisbladis>
Yes
<adisbladis>
You want everything to be black on white
<adisbladis>
White on black looks like crap
<gchristensen>
I wish my terminal & vscode could toggle between light/dark mode
<gchristensen>
simultaneously
<gchristensen>
hey wait it could if I just used vscode as my terminal for everything
<sterni>
I would kinda like black on white text editing && terminal but wtih LCD it is unbearable
<adisbladis>
I have that :)
<adisbladis>
Just live in emacs!
<sterni>
gotta spend that $1000 on the dasung thingy
<gchristensen>
hah
<adisbladis>
sterni: It's awesome
<sterni>
tbh I was debating buying the remarkable, but now that I think of it I should probably just spend double of the price of that and continue to use what I already like
<sterni>
like I'm reading PDFs for university on this laptop already
<sterni>
I guess only selling point for a tablet would be annotations
<adisbladis>
I have both and wouldn't want to give up either one
<infinisil>
gchristensen: You'll probably like this ^
<gchristensen>
oh my word
<gchristensen>
"like"
<aaronjanse>
Ooooooh
<gchristensen>
I love it
<aaronjanse>
Do you know if it has completions for external programs?
<infinisil>
:P
<infinisil>
I know it can show man pages of commands as docs
<gchristensen>
wow, yeah, let's just replace bash's autocompletion with an LSP
<aaronjanse>
I've wanted to build or contribute to a bash lsp that replaces the current bash/zsh/etc completion system for interactive shells
<gchristensen>
!
<aaronjanse>
Yeah
<infinisil>
For bash function, it also shows the comments above it as docs
<infinisil>
It doesn't do argument completion for commands though
<aaronjanse>
The context is that my system default shell is a Julia and shell-like polyglot repl. I'm currently using fish for completions for shell code, but I'd like to use a LSP
<aaronjanse>
It's fairly straightforward to psrformantly get completions from fish, so a shell LSP could borrow from the existing ecosystem
<aaronjanse>
It would be pretty cool to share the same completions system between interactive shell and script editing
<aaronjanse>
Right now I'm debating if I should implement this bash completion lsp thing first or if I should try to get autocomplete & hover documentation in rnix-lsp for NixOS options
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<infinisil>
Hmm, trying to decide whether I should use github wiki for documentation
<infinisil>
Or just markdown files in the source
<infinisil>
Tending towards just markdown files in the source, since then you can refer to older documentation too
<sterni>
I'd also say so yeah
<Synthetica>
Yeah, github wiki feels kinda bolted on
* infinisil
nods
<gchristensen>
the github wiki doesn't even properly commit to git
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<cransom>
there's no git in the wiki at all, is there? the prs don't leave a paper trail either, nor do issues. what is this 'git hub' that github purports to be anyway?
<gchristensen>
no, it does use git
<gchristensen>
but the vast majority of github wikis don't pass fsck
<infinisil>
But it's not like synchronized with the source code commits
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<siraben>
gchristensen: how would fsck check github wikis?
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<siraben>
TIL that github wikis can have their data exported
<siraben>
sterni: I use the reMarkable a lot, depends on your usercase
<siraben>
but for me I use it every day heavily
<siraben>
it's amazing for writing mathematics
<gchristensen>
git has its own fcsk
<siraben>
aaronjanse: what phone goes grayscale at night?
<bbigras>
my pixel 2 does
<bbigras>
a bit earlier it also use a yellow (maybe red) tint.
<siraben>
I see
<bbigras>
I wonder if it's just a feature of the latest Android version.
<siraben>
aside from rM, IIRC there are pinephone users here, how is it as an android/iphone replacemen?
<siraben>
replacement*
<siraben>
is it because it's an OLED screen?
<bbigras>
there was a pinephone beta announcement this week.
<siraben>
not sure how grayscale helps for conventional displays
<bbigras>
wait. I thought grayscale was to block the evil blue light.
<siraben>
Wouldn't a redshift/f.lux-like filter be enough?
<siraben>
I was under the impression that grayscale mode had something to do with power saving
<siraben>
(for android phones)
<bbigras>
why need a redshift/f.lux-like filter if the OS does it?
<siraben>
I might to block the blue light
<siraben>
s/might/mean
<siraben>
all these typos at night, heh
<bbigras>
in my phone, the grayscale thing at night is under the "well being" options. I'm pretty sure it's for the blue light.
<bbigras>
I don't think it activates when the power saving mode is enabled.
<aaronjanse>
<siraben "aaronjanse: what phone goes gray"> my Samsung Galaxy S9 does, under an option called "winding down"
<aaronjanse>
It does blue light filter around 10 pm then greyscale around 2 am as "oh, no, you really do need to go to bed"
<aaronjanse>
Oh whoops, pardon the quoting for those on IRC
<siraben>
does sunset occur at 10 pm? mine starts around sunset I think
<aaronjanse>
Oh sunset is an option, but I set mine to an exact schedule
<aaronjanse>
*hour-based
<siraben>
I see
<bbigras>
here sunset is about 6 pm right now. my phone got a yellow tint at about 10 pm and gray at 11pm. but I think it's a setting too. not sure about a sunset setting.
<siraben>
TFW you set up bedtime on iOS but ignore it completely sometimes
<siraben>
¯\_(ツ)_/¯
<aaronjanse>
Awww
<aaronjanse>
siraben: Are you still on Element Desktop?
<siraben>
just because I have an inverted schedule (+12 hrs from my uni timezone), so unless I have evening (central US time) meetings, I could wake up whenever
<siraben>
aaronjanse: yeah
<siraben>
I tried gomuks again recently but would like to see message selection and room unread indication fixed
<cole-h>
so instead of selecting from the 3 options, you just click a button for a "request changes" or "approve" or "comment"
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<siraben>
gchristensen: is it STILL stuck?
<siraben>
rip, appears to be so
<gchristensen>
the company apparently hired a salvage company
<siraben>
wikipedia: o.O "Lloyd's List estimates that every day it takes to clear the obstruction will disrupt an additional US$9 billion worth of goods."
<gchristensen>
a while ago I interviewed at a company that manages ports, and they said software deploys took a couple hours of down time and $100,000,000/h in cost
<adisbladis>
siraben: Europe is kinda dependent on that route for sea transports from asia..
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<Raito_Bezarius>
does anyone know what freenode uses in their infra stack as in operating systems, etc? Just curious
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<siraben>
adisbladis: oof, otherwise you'd have to go around south africa right? (my guess)
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<srhb>
(guessing we're talking about the Ever Given) yeah, horn of Africa.
<srhb>
The memes coming out of it being stuck are hilarious though
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<gchristensen>
the austin powers luggage cart :')
<srhb>
Also straight up the official videos coming out of the Suez Canal Authority. I nearly spat out my coffee.
<leonardp>
its a picture uploaded via the element matrix client
<gchristensen>
leonardp has probably been reading the chat and didn't say anything until then, and matrix lazy-joined them :)
<srhb>
leonardp: Accurate.
<leonardp>
gchristensen: exactly :)
<gchristensen>
rip jessica walter :(
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<lovesegfault>
:(
<supersandro2000>
great. my bouncer did not reconnect...
<lovesegfault>
I feel like God is in charge of updating the wikipedia bio section themselves
<lovesegfault>
like, the second they take someone, they also update wikipedia
<eyJhb>
lovesegfault: "take"?
<lovesegfault>
take someone's life :P
<eyJhb>
,ping
<{^_^}>
pong
<lovesegfault>
,pong
<{^_^}>
lovesegfault: Did you mean ping?
<{^_^}>
pong
<lovesegfault>
I MEANT PONG
<lovesegfault>
I WANTED TO BE PINGED
<supersandro2000>
pingpong?
<eyJhb>
lovesegfault: Did you mean ping?
<eyJhb>
,ping
<{^_^}>
pong
<eyJhb>
Good bot. You're really useful when I do network stuff
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<infinisil>
,pong = ping
<{^_^}>
pong defined
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<aaronjanse>
Ohhhh I bet the clever bot is responding
<ar>
,pong
<{^_^}>
ping
<aaronjanse>
I muted it so I could read #nixos
<aaronjanse>
I was confused for a moment
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<eyJhb>
,ping
<{^_^}>
pong
<eyJhb>
,pong
<{^_^}>
ping
<eyJhb>
,GIB ME MONEYS
<eyJhb>
bad bot.
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<samueldr>
I love how apparently "No space left on device" will happen on a tmpfs with around 30 odd gigabytes left free
<samueldr>
(and with plenty of actual ram free to handle the tmpfs)
<samueldr>
definitely doesn't block me on the current mass rebuild... no no... definitely haven't wasted a chunk of my day :(
<abathur>
doh
<samueldr>
hm
<samueldr>
inode exhaustion, in my tmpfs?
<samueldr>
more likely than you'd think!
<samueldr>
sudo mount /tmp -o remount,nr_inodes=$((409600*4)) # and I can forget about it until the next time
<samueldr>
(the 409600 value is what was reported by df -i as my current value)
<abathur>
could be--would explain the space at least; I wondered recently, while updating my desktop for the first time in a while and having trouble freeing up enough space until I just moved some files, if Nix could play better tetris wrt resource constraints
<samueldr>
so apparently a world rebuild exhausts 400K odd inodes at once at one point in the build
<abathur>
particularly while watching free space and inodes ping-pong around as it builds and then discards files
<gchristensen>
oops
<abathur>
because in theory, I would guess especially with multiple concurrent builds running, it could squeeze through some fraction of bottlenecks by just backing off, culling all current builds, and restarting them one at a time
<samueldr>
(to be fair a chunk of the afternoon was "wasted" building, not actually figuring things out)
<gchristensen>
you should see the ways I wasted time today ...
<abathur>
especially if it had some metadata on roughly how much space the final artifacts would take up, and what the peak usage of the build directory would be
<abathur>
and if it had the metadata, it could in theory run up the white flag and ask you if it should continue when there's probably no room for even the expected outputs before wasting hours of time
<eyJhb>
gchristensen: Curious, anything fun waste? :D
<gchristensen>
no
<gchristensen>
I somehow reconfigured a jobset to point to a specific hash
<colemickens>
if for nothing else because the unanswered questions are as interesting to think about as anything that is concretely known from the forensics.
<colemickens>
also, the implication that the owner knew data was being exfiltrated somehow. got me buzzing
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<abathur>
nice
<abathur>
I mean, horrifying, but nice
<srhb>
colemickens: wow indeed.
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<samueldr>
spent some time making mac and cheese not-from-a-box for the first time, and I almost misjudged the amount of pasta... but on the bright side they're cheesy!
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<ldlework>
one time i was super drunk and i started making a mac and cheese casserole as a joke, i started adding hot dog slices and red onion and bread crumbs on top and i forget whatelse, but it turned out great heh
<samueldr>
when baking it afterwards, bread crumbs on top are perfectly cromulent
<samueldr>
and everything else doesn't sound revolting in any way