gchristensen changed the topic of #nixos-chat to: NixOS but much less topical || https://logs.nix.samueldr.com/nixos-chat
<ashkitten> i'm working on figuring it out
<ashkitten> it's probably an issue with my nginx config
<pie_> omfg. if i hadnt googled the extremely useless error message (all it said was "target error") and taken some obscure comments semiseriously i would have never figured this out. apparently the windows iscsi initiator just refuses to use localhost as an address or something. and i wanted to connect to an iscsi target in a VM that was using nat and port forwarding over localhost in virtualbox
<pie_> instead of nat i switched virtualbox to host only adapter to get a different IP and that worked
<pie_> its terrifyingto have to think of solvingn this before stackoverflow/google/the microsoft forums had actually useful information for once but i am totally floored y the oddness of this behaviour.
<elvishjerricco> bbigras: Depends on what you want to do with it.
<elvishjerricco> rmcgibbo[m]: The appendix to that letter is... alarming. 15 direct quotes from him and their all terrible, even if you check the source for context.
<elvishjerricco> s/their/they're/
<pie_> like, AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
<ashkitten> aanderse: yeah no it's definitely broken... idk why, nginx is failing to open upstream websockets
<aanderse> if you hit directly is it broken?
<ashkitten> hmmmm no
<ashkitten> if i tunnel the socket back to my desktop and hit it on localhost, it works
<ashkitten> so it is nginx, somehow...
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<aanderse> most likely nginx... did you setup the web socket forwarding manually?
<aanderse> or does jellyfin provide a snippet in its package for that?
<ashkitten> i set it up manually but the end result is exactly what jellyfin recommends
<aanderse> ok
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<elvishjerricco> Hm. I have nginx adding ssl to a server via `virtualHosts.<name>.locations."/".proxyPass`. I wanted to make it so that server is at `/foundry` instead of `/`, but just changing the location name didn't work
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<pie_> ok so i now have a windows only raw disk tool operating on a zvol in a vm over iscsi. theres no reason it shouldnt work but im still surprised i pulled it off.
<ashkitten> i've got legitimately no idea what's happening
<ashkitten> reverse proxying is just broken for some completely wild reason
<pie_> wireshark?
* pie_ bikesheds with no context :/
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<pie_> turns out windows does a pretty good job hiding that its capable of a lot of stuff
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<samueldr> faxes?
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<ashkitten> aanderse: it seems to be some issue with jellyfin not liking nginx's X-Forwarded-For...
<ashkitten> if i enable remote connections it suddenly works
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<joepie91> samueldr: why did I immediately know that was gonna be CRD
<samueldr> because I said "faxes?" just beforehand
<samueldr> and that's... extremely on brand
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<ajs124> "When discount rates apply"
<ajs124> I'm wondering how long it's been since I've send a fax
<gchristensen> samueldr: pretty cool video
<samueldr> it's not my job to say so... but look at the other recent uploads
<samueldr> similar topics
<gchristensen> I sent a few dozen faxes in ... uh, 2016 and never since
<ajs124> I know faxes have been sent "on my behalf", as in from one department of some public office to another, as recent as 2019.
<samueldr> I really liked the HP Omnishare video
<ashkitten> can i just say, returning an empty 200 response is probably the weirdest and most frustratingly obscure way to block a connection
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<aanderse> ashkitten: glad to hear you resolved the issue at least
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<aleph-> ashkitten: Huh never had that issue myself. Odd
<ashkitten> seems like remote access is enabled by default, i must have tweaked that myself
<ashkitten> now i have to figure out why after updating to nextcloud 21 everything is broken...
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<AMG> so microsoft is about to buy a nicely packaged version of IRC for 10 billions? :D
<ldlework> Discord does a bit more than IRC
<lunc> It bought a lipsticked cvs with $7.5B 😂
<ldlework> doesn't seem useful to equivocate all software that lets you send lines of text to other people
<eyJhb> ldlework: It functions as a heater as well, true
<eyJhb> :D
<lunc> ms today is actually doing really well. If the acquisition of discord is handled like github it will be very good for discord
<AMG> im sure github has benefited, but has, linkedin benefited?
<lunc> Also look at all open source contributions from ms lately. They aren't the old shitty company anymore thanks to Nadela
<lunc> who cares about LinkedIn? :p
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<ldlework> lunc: I agree, I am quite happy to use MS dev tools these days.
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<boredom101> aaronjanse: did you have a chance to look at the repository? If so what did you think?
<joepie91> amg: lunc: buying Discord or Github was never about buying the service, but about buying the market position
<joepie91> (also, I have no reason to believe that Microsoft has "changed" and "aren't the old shitty company anymore" -- different coat of paint, same underlying motivations, still not a good-faith participant in the FOSS community despite their attempts to brand themselves as such)
<konubinix> I guess the subtility is in what you mean by shitty :-)
<konubinix> If by shitty you mean "not contributing to open source", I think you might agree. If by shitty you mean "not with altruist motives", then I think you disagree
<konubinix> But IMHO, a lot of open source contributors do this because it helps them in their daily life, so I believe those are not altruist either
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<ldlework> I mean I'll take the MS that's releasing open source dotnet core I can run on linux, implementing the linux kernel in windows, implementing typesafe alternatives to javascript, etc
<ldlework> If we have to have a MS
<ldlework> I forgot maintaining one of the nicer living MLs
<ldlework> Oh vscode
<pie_> ingest, overtake, divide and conquer
<pie_> i forgot the phrasing
<ldlework> embrace, extend, extinguish?
<pie_> yes thanks
<pie_> meanwhile, could we like, not put all our comms under big corporations?
<pie_> im just salty because i have a discord and id prefer not to
<pie_> also sounds like i should try to export my data asao
<pie_> asap
<joepie91> konubinix: Microsoft contributing to open-source isn't new. last time they did it, it was the lead-up to EEE :)
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<gchristensen> corporations aren't really altruistic or not, they have business-benefiting motivations
<joepie91> while I agree, the logical extension of that is "corporations can never be treated as a good-faith actor when working on a public commons like open-source" :)
<V> unfortunately people seem to believe that corporations are/act like people
<V> or have been led to believe this :)
<gchristensen> there can be business-driven motivations which incentivize them to collaborate as good-faith actors
<ehmry> unfortunately some people think that is a law of nature that corporations get to be shitty
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<V> hardly. it's just economically sane
<gchristensen> if some oss project is a key part of some co's strategy, they might not be totally transparent about their motivations
<joepie91> gchristensen: the problem is that this is not something you can rely on whatsoever, if the business winds shift then so will their role in the public commons. which is why I don't think they can ever be considered good-faith actors; any position of power or endorsement you give them *will* be misused if circumstances change
<gchristensen> that is literally what I'm saying :)
<gchristensen> agree!
<joepie91> right :P
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<siraben> aaronjanse: made my Scheme interpreter in Haskell a flake: nix run github:siraben/r5rs-denot
<gchristensen> 12:52 <Lope> Linux folks always lie. "blah blah works great!"
<gchristensen> 12:52 <gchristensen> well I don't know about blah blah linux, but nixos linux is terrible, it just happens to be much better than the rest
<V> NixOS + Linux
<joepie91> gchristensen: that's a familiar name...
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<konubinix> Is Extinguish part of the EEE mostly a social thing? Like « rely on us so much that you don't understand the product anymore and then we stop contributing »?
<gchristensen> V: NixOS/Linux ?
<konubinix> Because, as far as the license is concerned, I believe the free licenses prevent the code to be made closed, don't they?
<konubinix> In that sense, apart from past history, what could differentiate from Microsoft and nixos maintainer with relativity to EEE risks?
<gchristensen> konubinix: social, feature, infrastructure, development hours, all these things could suddenly disappear
<konubinix> I mean, I've been using nix for a few months now and plan to use it a lot more in the future (I love nix). But if people would suddenly stop working on nix, I don't think I could take over its development
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<joepie91> konubinix: embrace is becoming friendly with open-source folks and 'supporting' their stuff, extend is building upon those things in some way and adding their own extensions. in a way that is incompatible with the upstream stuff, and extinguish is the way that is used to basically kill off the original project in favour of the proprietary-extended system. this often doesn't necessarily involve closing up an open-source
<joepie91> codebase, but rather extended file formats, network protocols with extensions, integration of the proprietary equivalent in their cloudycloud products while presenting it as the open thing, etc.
<gchristensen> you couldn't but how many developers would need to walk away for nixos to stop being a thing, vs. a single corp pulling their 10's of millions away in a week
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<joepie91> ^ that also
<joepie91> single point of failure
<joepie91> same reason liberapay caps donations for example
<gchristensen> imho oss should make hay from paying companies while the sun is shining but be cautious about how they engage
<konubinix> I get it. joepie91: I did not understand the power of the Extend part of EEE. gchristensen: Indeed, I guess this is one major difference, the fact that most of the workforce suddenly disappears in one side and not in the other
<konubinix> Still, the extend is a social thing. People follow blindly Microsoft and the changes made by Microsoft because they (I included) don't realize that it is leading them toward incompatible changes
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<konubinix> May be if we were more educated to realize such changes, we could stay in vanilla stuff and avoid the bad Extend phase that leads to the Extinguish phase
<joepie91> konubinix: one more recent example of 'extend' is the way they've "opened up" the MS Office file format (OOXML), presenting it as an equivalent option to OpenDocument (which LibreOffice etc. use), to satisfy "must use open formats" requirements in government among other reasons... except they've then started extending that format with proprietary extensions in their *actual* software implementations
<joepie91> so on paper OOXML is "open" and thereby pretty much sabotaged the adoption of OOXML
<joepie91> in practice there's proprietary extensions that make an open implementation of OOXML incompatible with OOXML documents that actually exist
<joepie91> err
<joepie91> sabotaged the adoption of OpenDocument*
<konubinix> I don't understand how they could make the "bad" extensions come to life if not with a community using it?
<konubinix> If people realized this extension was incompatible and understood the risk, could it be possible that they would collectively have prevented the sabotaging?
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<konubinix> In a sense, when I talk about nix to friends of mine, they complain of this new tool that splits the user base of the already existing packaging ecosystem.
<gchristensen> in joepie91's example they made OOXML to be compatible with government requirements, got buyers for their software, and then effectively made it "soft"-proprietary again
<konubinix> Could it be that nix would sabotage apt and yum?
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<gchristensen> I mean, nix users and contributors typically, fundamentally, believe it is better than apt and yum otherwise they wouldn't use it
<gchristensen> so if it succeeds I'd say it is less sabotage and more, simply, a better tool
<konubinix> Agreed :-)
<gchristensen> as opposed to nix having (m,b)illions of dollars to actively participate in making apt / yum worse
<gchristensen> whereas EEE was not just a nickname given to MS's practice, but literally their written down strategy
<gchristensen> ""Embrace, extend, and extinguish" (EEE),[1] also known as "embrace, extend, and exterminate",[2] is a phrase that the U.S. Department of Justice found[3] that was used internally by Microsoft[4] to describe its strategy for entering product categories involving widely used standards, extending those standards with proprietary capabilities, and then using those differences in order to strongly
<gchristensen> disadvantage its competitors." -- https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Embrace,_extend,_and_extinguish
<konubinix> I understand, but the fact that they once had this strategy does not prove either that they still have it or that there is no villain guy behind an open source project, like nix to do this
<gchristensen> sure
<joepie91> konubinix: honestly, as a general rule, "proving" anything where a corporation is concerned is a pointless waste of effort
<konubinix> Indeed, this is my point :-)
<gchristensen> microsoft is doing pretty good OSS work these days because it is adventageous to what they consider to be a primary opportunity for business growth: azure
<joepie91> they operate on such degrees of obfuscation (both intentional and otherwise) that it's almost impossible to reliably suss out anything if you're not on the inside
<gchristensen> if they decide it isn't working or they've done the work they need to and can stop now, it would be foolish to think they would keep going just because it is the right thing to do
<joepie91> it's much more useful to operate off forward projections; inferring business goals from behaviour, and going off that
<konubinix> Totally with you
<konubinix> I realized a few months ago that they helped a lot the LSP specification
<gchristensen> they wrote it, afaik! and the debugging protocol to pair with it!
<gchristensen> great, brilliant work! good stuff: they build a way for OSS to make their projects work great with microsoft's editor, and all they had to do was make a protocol for it. so good! everybody benefits
<konubinix> I don't know LSP in detail, but the fact that I can now program in emacs using a LSP server in python, java or go is great.
<gchristensen> and this isn't a critique, but they can then go make the best LSP implementation possible in their editors and leave the other editors to figure it out on their own
<konubinix> Yep, and I believe that even if they want to extend to extinguish it, there will remain a community of people wanting to keep the emacs (or whatever env) / LSP feel
<gchristensen> Rust's LSP integration works best with VSCode for example
<konubinix> I did not try Rust in emacs so far, but chances are I will have to in the next months, so I will be able to check whether it is at least good enough :-)
<konubinix> I think that the fact they want to EEE is in a sense a good thing (at least for LSP), because we can have now things that might not have existed without their evil plan
<gchristensen> btw I'm going to exit this conversation now and go do some other work :).
<konubinix> And I believe that it is our collective responsibility not to be impacted by the extend/extinguish phases :-)
<konubinix> As do I, thank you for the interesting food for thoughts :-)
<gchristensen> final comment, it sucks to be on the "figure out how to pick up the pieces" side which doesn't have hundreds of billions of dollars of assets and revenue
<joepie91> +1
<joepie91> externalized costs as usual
<bbigras> "MS today is not the same as MS of yesterday" https://twitter.com/turbo_MaCk/status/1367094432311476224
<konubinix> I agree with you gchristensen. But let's not forget that may be without the evil plan of MS, sometimes (like in the case of LSP) there would be no pieces to pick up because there would be nothing in the first place.
<konubinix> So in the end I think there evil plan might have helped, whether they decide to abandon the project or not
<konubinix> It was just a comment between two pomodoros, I think I'm done :-)
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<supersandro2000> dropping that here just incase someone missed it https://rms-open-letter.github.io/
<pie_> Im not looking but <someoneontheinternet> "damnit, there are sensible ways to criticise RMS, lots of them, THIS IS NOT ONE OF THEM WHAT ARE YOU EVEN REEEEEEE"
<gchristensen> maybe we can avoid unnecessarily raising the temperature of the issue unnecessarily
<bbigras> I'm not a big fan of the cancel culture. I thought RMS already lost his job once. Maybe he learned and his career doesn't need to be destroyed anymore.
<supersandro2000> bbigras: he resigned 1 1/2 years ago and was invited back but nothing really changed in the meantime
<bbigras> supersandro2000: ah ☹️
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<supersandro2000> also that process really lacks some transparency.
<pie_> sounds to me like they want him out permanently
<pie_> ok ok i have other things to do nevermind
<supersandro2000> thats the idea if you resign in the first place
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<CodeKiwi> i figured he died homeless on the street
<gchristensen> please, avoid unnecessarily raising the temperature of the issue unnecessarily
<hexa-> yep, not a fate you'd wish upon anybody.
<hexa-> I'd rather have caps friday.
<hexa-> all caps*
<pie_> see, here's my problem: <personontheinternet> relatedly i worry that without stallman nobody in free software is fanatic enough
<pie_> but i have no skin in the game
<sterni> hexa-: lookign forward to it
<hexa-> huh, I don't :p
<CodeKiwi> lol sorry. the thing i remember most about that whole thing was some twitter person going above and beyond making it seem like he'd be dead within the week.
<pie_> cappy day is how i keep track of time passing
<pie_> every time it comes it's a bringer of "oh no 7 days have passed again what is happening"
<f0x> pie_: that's what out of touch thursdays is for too :P https://botsin.space/@oot_thursdays/105910450034152177
<siraben> uh oh, RMS is getting cancelled???
<gchristensen> I am not kidding.
<etu> No pun intended, but I also think that that discussion is off topic from this channel so we should cancel that discussion.
<bbigras> isn't this channel about off-topic stuff?
<siraben> need a #nixos-chat-chat
<etu> Sure, but that topic is a very big minefield that may cause a lot of hurt feelings both ways.
<etu> So keeping it out is the smart move.
<cransom> #nixos-afterdark
<bbigras> It's possible to talk about something without "raising the temperature of the issue unnecessarily"
<gchristensen> I don't think discussing it is inherently troublesome, however so far there have been at least three hyperbolic comments which could so easily turn it sour, and that is not appropriate
<siraben> But FWIW I haven't really followed the events that lead to RMS's resignation and controversy regarding his rejoining, but I will say that he is a great figure in the free software world with such a strong resolve
<siraben> gchristensen: apologies, saw the previous warnings after the fact
<supersandro2000> you can do great work and still be a bad person
<siraben> supersandro2000: what would that be referring to?
<siraben> the "bad" part
<supersandro2000> just generally
<gchristensen> if we're going to discuss it, please take care to be genuine and caring in the discussion, and avoid hyperbole whenever possible
<supersandro2000> you can do great and important work and still be an asshole
<f0x> I think this is a good counterpoint to that; https://glammr.us/@platypus/105945008497400318
<supersandro2000> and if you are the same person over a long term of time this can be great and bad
<supersandro2000> society changes and things that where appropriate 20 or 30 or 40 years ago are no longer considered that
<etu> FSFe doesn't approve of FSF's decision.
<supersandro2000> and if you don't change over time with society you will eventually get into conflict with it
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<siraben> "GNU is not fulfilling its mission when the behavior of its leader alienates a large part of those we want to reach out to.", whom is he alienting?
<siraben> alienating*
<crazazy[m]> in their eyes mostly women and other minorities
<siraben> hmm
<supersandro2000> I can count the women in tech I have meet so far in my carrier on two hands
<siraben> very few women CS majors that I know of
<supersandro2000> there are a total of 4 out of ~100 in my year
<ehmry> from what I hear this problem is actually worse in both open source and US and western europe in general
<ehmry> companies writing closed source stuff actually try to be diverse
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<ehmry> and outside of the west there is more economic pressure for women to get jobs in tech
<pie_> This is a dangerous topic to discuss because it's intimately tied to deep political issues.
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<pie_> and its easily to spill into topics people have Opinions on
<ldlework> pie_: just have the right opinion and there's no danger
<pie_> ldlework: thats the problem isnt it
<ldlework> only if you have the wrong opinion
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<cransom> the gender dynamics are interesting as they change through time for various jobs. early on in computing, women were a huge component of programming. when my spouse graduated veterinary school, of a class of 80, i think 2 were men.
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<gchristensen> ldlework: this is your only warning re my notices above.
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<pie_> it's a microcosm
<ldlework> hmm not sure how my comment is hyperbolic or uncaring in responding to pie_'s concern so I guess I'll do the safe thing and say nothing
<pie_> its easy to read in one direction
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<pie_> helplessness is fun
<gchristensen> pie_: this is your only warning re my notices above.
<pie_> supersandro2000: postin that link was a bad idea ;p
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<ehmry> could be worse, this could be #guix
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<pie_> I cannot imagine :'D
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<supersandro2000> pie_: I don't think so
<supersandro2000> nothing changes if you are quiet and don't say anything all the time
<siraben> I don't think we made any headway in any direction lol
<siraben> I'm just as confused as when I started
<pie_> The only thing that will happen if you push this topic is polarization.
<gchristensen> it doesn't have to be that way
<pie_> Some places aren't worth turning into a battleground. No it doesn't have to be, but who will concede?
<pie_> I'm leaving temporarily
<gchristensen> with great care and working to keep the temperature low and to stop considering it a battleground
<siraben> I'm going to sleep
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<supersandro2000> if we start to talk about flakes the temperature is higher :)
<Synthetica> supersandro2000: which is dangerous; they might melt :^)
<gchristensen> haha
<supersandro2000> then we just have plain old water
<ldlework> I do wonder what opposing criticism would look like that couldn't simply just be characterized as hyperbolizing harassment and shutdown.
<supersandro2000> maybe some algae grows in the puddle
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<ldlework> "You're wrong about this." can feel pretty negative which is the door to denoting harassment
<supersandro2000> yeah but sometimes you are just wrong about something
<sterni> supersandro2000: lol
* ldlework blinks.
<gchristensen> the hyperbole and temperature raising in your comments is in the "just have the right opinion" comments, which trivialize the issues and encourage strong response
<ldlework> gchristensen: sometimes you're just wrong about something
<gchristensen> yes, and it is unlikely for that to be a factor in this discussion and certainly not without careful exploration
<supersandro2000> things like the internet will never be widespread where just wrong predictions
<supersandro2000> that kind of wrong
<ldlework> Because I was literally saying "sometimes you're just wrong about something" to you, and not ironically satirizing the thing just said.
<supersandro2000> don't take everything literal
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<pie_> gchristensen: I have no intention of considering it a battleground, and I have no need for anyone to "concede". - but it seems to be problematic without things reminescent of chatham house rules or an established context of epistemic hygiene.
<pie_> Just came back to say I don't _want_ a battleground, despite the phrasing.
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<ldlework> There's no irony in being warned in moderation in saying "just have the right opinion", but in the context of trying to remain neutral "maybe you're just wrong" slicks right through. It's just interesting.
<supersandro2000> CodeKiwi: you can also read that like he will never change
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<bbigras> nice
<gchristensen> I need to test a condition where read-after-write consistency is violated (it isn't guaranteed to start with) and what a nightmare computers are
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<samueldr> to be added to your schedules: https://mobile.twitter.com/sigbovik/status/1374496568351498247
<gchristensen> yay
<srk> watching youtube in win10 wm totally impressed how well forwarding to host works
<srk> cole-h: thanks for the links! I sort-of wonder how does one manage multiple emacs instances
<cole-h> srk: how do you mean? do you mean like daemon mode?
<cole-h> I used a combination of my `em` and `emn` wrapper binaries created at the top of the emacs/default.nix file
<srk> that as well, but multiple installations currently. until I decide if doom/space/or my custom one
<cole-h> ah
<cole-h> I never had to deal with that :P sorry
<cole-h> If whatever the latest version of emacs is has support for XDG dirs (I remember it was in 27 I believe, or at least 28), you could probably make separate XDG_* dirs for each installation
<srk> sort of answered in your config it seems. maybe I can just run multiple daemons
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<samueldr> cole-h: though that would affect any process launched from emacs
<cole-h> true
<samueldr> (that follows XDG_*)
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<samueldr> I uh... think I set the DPI overrides wrong
<samueldr> (this is a VM)
<gchristensen> very very high dpi
<samueldr> fun! I was looking at qemu's source, they have all the implementation details done to work with EDIDs, and/or setup monitor information
<samueldr> but none of that is part of the "frontend" (qemu command-line)
<samueldr> the only part present is the resolution settings :(
<samueldr> AFAICT their EDID support in the front-end stops at "turning it on", and then setting resolution, no monitor sizes, no dpi setting
<samueldr> if it allowed passing a binary EDID it would work fine... ESPECIALLY since they have an EDID generator exercising the very function I need!!
<samueldr> and it's *just* not trivial enough that I can't see quickly how to add the feature
<f0x> hmm does anyone have a nix rclone serve module?
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