<MichaelRaskin>
Remember the ++nickname discussion?
* infinisil
doesn't
<aszlig>
MichaelRaskin: is karma actually becoming a too serious business?
<cole-h>
++nick should increment and display, while nick++ should display and then increment... >:)
<infinisil>
cole-h: Oh I like that
<MichaelRaskin>
aszlig: not yet, but we should strike first!
<MichaelRaskin>
infinisil: my plan was to DM to bot then post ++nickname in the channel, so that preincrement would happen _before_ the message «triggering» it
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<aszlig>
infinisil: i'd actually welcome it if it was possible to disable karma :-)
<aszlig>
like privmsging the bot with "i don't want karma" or something
<infinisil>
MichaelRaskin: Still not entirely sure what that means. You mean that when <nickname> posts the next message in the channel, it would trigger the karma message then?
<infinisil>
Hm, would there be a problem with allowing people to disable karma and supplying their own message to be emitted for ++'s?
<cole-h>
Set custom message to `username++`, rake in the infinite recursion
<infinisil>
Hehe, [un]fortunately the bot can't see his own messages
<infinisil>
s/his/its
<cole-h>
Set message to be various expletives in various languages
<cole-h>
Rake in the infinite bans
<cole-h>
worldofpeace: Is it intended that `# git checkout -b release.19.09` is to be run as root?
<infinisil>
Hm, I guess this messages could be triggered by the people themselves by just logging in with a different user
<infinisil>
So yeah arbitrary messages might not be a good idea
<MichaelRaskin>
But it would still be attributed to their account?
<cole-h>
`cole-h++` -> "Join our brand new IRC server at pls.dont.ban.me!"
<infinisil>
MichaelRaskin: Oh true
<infinisil>
I guess let's just roll with it for now, I doubt spammers would take the time to understand the karma bot anyways
<infinisil>
(well I haven't implemented it yet, but I plan to!)
<worldofpeace>
cole-h: it's meant so you can copy and paste, but you really shouldn't
<worldofpeace>
omg, after reformatting markdown 3 times the docbook output is usable
<cole-h>
worldofpeace: I'd also suggest using the full flag, e.g. `git tag --annotate --sign --message="Release 420.69-beta" 420.69-beta` instead of the short flags
<worldofpeace>
cole-h: great suggestion
<cole-h>
(Yes, I'm extremely childish to be grinning at that. Doesn't stop me.)
<MichaelRaskin>
Of course, you could probably use this as a communication channel around a ban, but then whoever would say «spammer++» is probably a spammer anyway
<worldofpeace>
cole-h: 😆
<worldofpeace>
I wouldn't put that in the official docs
<cole-h>
:(
<cole-h>
:P
<cole-h>
worldofpeace: I'd personally suggest changing `# <commandline>` to `$ <commandline>` (or even better, drop it)
<cole-h>
(and by drop it I mean drop the `#`)
<gchristensen>
# being root-ey
<cole-h>
^
<cole-h>
`git checkout -b asdf` doesn't need to be root-ey :^)
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<worldofpeace>
cole-h: remind me on the PR which I'll open shortly, this has me borderline delirious
<worldofpeace>
samueldr: maybe, I can't count at this point :D
<samueldr>
that confirms my suspicions that the location of that link is quite bad
<cole-h>
WOP on the don? /me follows
<gchristensen>
enough jargon to make my head spin
<cole-h>
>:D
<worldofpeace>
cole-h: you're in for a treat
<cole-h>
gchristensen: -> "worldofpeace on Mastodon? /me follows"
<gchristensen>
yeah I sorted it hehe
<samueldr>
and here I thought worldofpeace was head of the mafia
<cole-h>
Well, very well could be
<adisbladis>
gchristensen: Mhm?
<worldofpeace>
depends on what kind of mafia, and how you define a criminal
<cole-h>
worldofpeace: 9 suggestions for you to sort out
<gchristensen>
adisbladis: I could have one for starting via dmenu, and another in PATH ideally with the GUI disabled
<adisbladis>
I dunno why, but right now I have this vague assocation of `worldofpeace -> icp`
<adisbladis>
gchristensen: display-graphic-p !
<adisbladis>
That's the variable you're looking for
<gchristensen>
I can set it?
<worldofpeace>
cole-h: thanks, those are all great suggestions
<cole-h>
Happy to help. You kickstarted my contributions to nixpkgs with the comment about "ZHF is how I started getting involved", so I'm giving what little back I can
<adisbladis>
gchristensen: It returns `t` if your emacs is runinng in a gui
<worldofpeace>
adisbladis: oh no, we might have to do something about that, because I think you mean the hip-hop duo. And I could never, it's certainly lacking in fashion and refinement. although entertaining in some context.
<gchristensen>
oh, so just load the extr astuff if in tty
<gchristensen>
neat
<worldofpeace>
✨ cole-h
<{^_^}>
cole-h's karma got increased to 35
<worldofpeace>
what's sent always returns ten-fold
<cole-h>
idk I only got 1 karma from that. infinisil maybe your bot's broken?
<cole-h>
:P
<gchristensen>
adisbladis: wait, no, the problem is the plugins don't work in master (pgtk), but master (pgtk) works nicely on wayland
<cole-h>
gchristensen: Plugins, meaning flycheck?
* cole-h
just switched to pgtk (again) mere hours ago, and doesn't have any issues with his billions of packages
<gchristensen>
yeah, and ivy, counsel, artbollocks-mode, lsp, rust-mode
<gchristensen>
I'm on stable and not yet sold on the overlay
<adisbladis>
My guess earlier today was that gchristensen is running into `max-lisp-eval-depth` related issues
<gchristensen>
yeah
<cole-h>
Yeah, I remember that.
<adisbladis>
gchristensen: It depends on how stale you wanna be ;)
<cole-h>
Sorry I can't help more x) I use doom-emacs with its billions of packages
<adisbladis>
As someone who's been using emacs for waay longer than I've been using nix: Nixpkgs never met my emacs packaging expectations
<adisbladis>
But I completely understand sticking to stable
<adisbladis>
It really depends on your expectations
<adisbladis>
I wanted to get as close to my previous workflow around use-package & melpa as possible
<adisbladis>
gchristensen: Given what I know about your emacs usage stable is probably about right :P
<gchristensen>
to be honest, I'm a pretty light emacs user and have actually considered going back to vim anyway, so at a certain point this is motivated by improving your comfort while pairing haha
<adisbladis>
gchristensen: I don't know you :O
<adisbladis>
Vim?!
<gchristensen>
did you *see* the number of times I pulled up nano today? :D
* cole-h
slinks away, shielding his evil-mode from sight.
<adisbladis>
nano > vim
<adisbladis>
Not even joking
<gchristensen>
haha
<adisbladis>
(I don't really care, use what you like)
<gchristensen>
I know :)
<cole-h>
No, I seek validation from you, adisbladis. I shall now use nano.
<adisbladis>
nanomacs
* emily
waves the kakoune flag
<adisbladis>
The door is there
* adisbladis
points
<cole-h>
D:
<adisbladis>
<3
<samueldr>
alias emacs=vim
<samueldr>
there I fixed it
<cole-h>
Oh no
<cole-h>
This is how NixOS dies
<cole-h>
Not with a bang, but with an editor war
<adisbladis>
samueldr: I have done the opposite for realz
<cole-h>
-- John Cena
<infinisil>
alias nix-env=apt-get
<cole-h>
infinisil: Begone, foul beast!
<emily>
infinisil: then you'd have to pretend nix-env had reasonable command-line syntax
<emily>
would break my suspension of disbelief
<infinisil>
You have a point!
<adisbladis>
alias nix-env=sl
<adisbladis>
You shouldn't use imperative package management
<cole-h>
Oh yeah? Watch me!
<gchristensen>
okay actually nano looks pretty good
<cole-h>
`doas pacman -S nix`
<cole-h>
What now, adisbladis?!
<adisbladis>
cole-h: You broke my brain
<adisbladis>
I don't know how to react
<cole-h>
"Wow, this cole-h guy is the coolest to have ever lived." will suffice.
<adisbladis>
Wow, this cole-h guy is the coolest to have ever lived.
<gchristensen>
adisbladis: tomorrow when we're using nano and tmux, know you've earned this
<adisbladis>
gchristensen: I really don't mind nano :P
<adisbladis>
At least there are basic emacs key bindings
<gchristensen>
not when I'm done reading nanorc(5)
<drakonis>
did i walk into a editor war?
<gchristensen>
nope
<gchristensen>
more like a love-in
<gchristensen>
(is that inappropriate? it might be ...)
<drakonis>
is it?
<drakonis>
i can't tell
<adisbladis>
oh no
<cole-h>
gchristensen: What are you doing with adisbladis tomorrow? More nixops code review stuff?
<adisbladis>
cole-h: Me and gchristensen have a "special relationship"
<adisbladis>
But yeah, NixOps :)
<gchristensen>
cole-h: we've been doing a lot of pair programming this week
<gchristensen>
reading nanorc(5) is this huge laundry list of things that should just be on by default
<cole-h>
Line numbers included?
<adisbladis>
I should have slept hours ago..
<adisbladis>
G'night y'all
<adisbladis>
o/
<cole-h>
o/ Sleep well.
<worldofpeace>
"we've been doing a lot of pair programming this week" so basically adisbladis and gchristensen have been complementing each other for days 😹
<worldofpeace>
oh u
<gchristensen>
:D
<pie_[bnc]>
xD
<infinisil>
{^_^}++
<{^_^}>
{^_^}'s karma got decreased to 187
<{^_^}>
Wait no, it got *increased* to 189
<infinisil>
Noice
<infinisil>
lol
<cole-h>
lmfao wtf
<gchristensen>
« Typing M-V 0 0 2 2 c 4 will enter the symbol "⋄", a little diamond. » lol
<drakonis>
lmao
<gchristensen>
the nix syntax highlighter isn't so good
<samueldr>
great. hung the whole firefox instance with just a bit of JS :(
<gchristensen>
:(
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<gchristensen>
one downside to nano is no appropriate irc channel , it seems
<ldlework>
what would you even talk about
<ldlework>
hehe
<cole-h>
"Hey, what're the keychords to type a little diamond again?"
<ldlework>
My little goban library is coming along nicely
<ldlework>
You can now click on variations right on the board to visit them
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<ashkitten>
wait, what
<ashkitten>
{^_^}++ ?
<{^_^}>
{^_^}'s karma got increased to 190
<cole-h>
lol
<cole-h>
Only inf*nisil is allowed to do that
<ashkitten>
oh, ofc
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<infinisil>
It's random :P
<cole-h>
That's just what you want us to think
<infinisil>
Heh
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<ornxka>
i took the nix pill
<ornxka>
its pretty fascinating how stuff like overrides work
<ornxka>
when i first heard of nix i thought "why didnt they just use something like haskell?" but nix is way different, haskell odesnt have good capabilities for reflection at all
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<sphalerite>
ldlework: are you at least writing it in go?
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<eyJhb>
infinisil: sounds like Richard Hendricks from Silicon Valley :p
<eyJhb>
How well does JitSi Meet scale btw.?
<etu>
Pretty good in my experience
<etu>
As long as everyone use a chrome based browser
<eyJhb>
What about Safari etc.?
<etu>
Not chrome-based ;)
<eyJhb>
Also, is the end-to-end integrated yet?
<etu>
Jitsi had some issues and Firefox was lacking some stuff to get it to work well. But Jitsi have fixed their bugs and next release of Firefox will support the needed things :)
<eyJhb>
So, out of luck for all the Mac users with their default browsers?
<eyJhb>
Just wondering how well it would work for 1 presenter and 200 people etu :p
<etu>
eyJhb: Then I would say it's easier to stream it on youtube or something
<eyJhb>
I would have loved some OBS software + custom website
<makefu>
from #nixos - anyways, i think decoupling home-dirs is something to strive for
<makefu>
how home directories work is still a thing from mainframe-times. these times are over, people mostly have one user on their laptop (the gui user)
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<iqubic>
Hey folks. I'm here.
<makefu>
with nixos we try to decouple state as much as possible from the system configuration. however $HOME is still something which is not so easily managed
<iqubic>
I mean, we have home-manager for a declarative management of $HOME
<makefu>
however you could not simply move your home to a new laptop and everything `just works`
<makefu>
also, nixos is a special case here. every other distro is doing legacy management
<iqubic>
nix is a special lambda filled snowflake.
<makefu>
every time i get back to work to the fragile ansible provision work i cry a bit inside
<makefu>
thinking "well what i do here is a total piece of crap and nixos is the correct solution"
<iqubic>
That's unfortunate.
<makefu>
legacy systems are unfortunately my work life
<makefu>
howevery for all development-related things and CI i sneaked in nixos and home-manager
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<hyperfekt>
ornxka: actually i think all the overrides mechanisms are implemented in Nix and would be implemented in Haskell just the same. the biggest difference between the two is probably that working with attrsets is much more enjoyable in Nix
<ornxka>
haskell's record syntax left much to be desired the last time i used it
<hyperfekt>
also i think functionArgs is a pe
<hyperfekt>
*pretty crucial bit of reflection for the callpackage pattern
<ornxka>
yeah
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<srk>
> builtins.currentTime
<{^_^}>
1588240839
<srk>
alright
<eyJhb>
> builtins.exec
<{^_^}>
attribute 'exec' missing, at (string):308:1
<srk>
now it just needs feeding into mersenne twister
<srk>
builtins.prng .. :D
<etu>
adisbladis: haha
<adisbladis>
etu: I legit use that a lot
<etu>
adisbladis: Interesting :D
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<gchristensen>
I don't suppose anyone has run systemd inside a docker container without --privileged
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<__monty__>
My perception is that systemd rather runs outside containers with its greasy fingers reaching in, a la nspawn.
<gchristensen>
yeah
<gchristensen>
but I want to run it inside and outside the container :)
<__monty__>
You're *too* much of a systemd fanboy, Graham, not even Lennart allows that. ; p
<gchristensen>
adisbladis managed to do it with podman, running as his user (ie: no `root` involved) and --privileged.... not sure how to grant a docker container the same amount of privilege as a rootless podman 's --privileged
<lukegb>
I don't think you can - you'd need user namespaces for that, I think, and Docker's support for that is very lacking
<gchristensen>
depressing
<srk>
it was :)
<srk>
we've managed to run unprivileged docker cts inside lxc but I don't remember the exact details, it needs modified seccomp profile and correctly set cgroups
<flokli>
gchristensen: define container :-P
<flokli>
you can perfectly fine run systemd inside a lxc or nspawn container ;-)
<MichaelRaskin>
flokli: can you run systemd inside a Nix build?
<MichaelRaskin>
That might help the tests that need a _single_ NixOS instance with no need for hardware…
<flokli>
I think there would be some cgroups problems currently
<flokli>
but being able to have a somewhat lighter test harness that doesn't involve qemu is something I'd really really like
<MichaelRaskin>
_somewhat_ lighter sounds like CrosVM
<flokli>
hopefully the rest of the perl tests are migrated soon, so I can put some work into that
<qyliss>
or gvisor?
<flokli>
or firecracker?
<qyliss>
crosvm and firecracker are basically the same thing as far as this is concerned
<MichaelRaskin>
Oh, gVisor is interesting
<qyliss>
although crosvm is arguably more suitable since firecracker is extremely limited in functionality and focuses on long-running VMs that need lifecycle management and stuff
<srk>
I wrote a PoC of GUI testing thingie with tesseract OCR for VNC images and ability to identify buttons few years ago, want to revive that at some point
<__monty__>
I'd like 0-intervention updates being forbidden.
<__monty__>
But since CAs are apparently allowed as a way around that this doesn't seem to really do anything? Except create another avenue of income for CAs?
<__monty__>
Wait does this not talk about updates for end-users at all? Is it specific to how CAs manage their systems?
<emily>
CA/Browser Forum is all about specifying the requirements on CAs and Browsers, hence the name
<emily>
(though not quite equally, "CAs get yelled at by Browsers Forum" isn't entirely wrong either)
<emily>
so yeah this is all about the requirements on CAs
<__monty__>
So it *is* about firefox/chrome updates too?
<emily>
of which there are many and they're mostly byzantine and terrible
<emily>
no
<__monty__>
Oh.
<infinisil>
Ctrl-Shift-T in Firefox reopens the last closed tab
<infinisil>
Very useful, only just recently learned of this one
<__monty__>
In safari it's always been Cmd-z (undo). Feels so natural.
<MichaelRaskin>
srk: you too?
<MichaelRaskin>
I have written an fMBT-based LibreOffice test at some point
<sphalerite>
Anyone know how to set the size of a ramdisk (/dev/ram0)? I want to do some benchmarking of various ways of encrypting zfs, and my plan was to create an in-memory pool from those… but they're a little small currently
<sphalerite>
I see there's a kernel parameter, but I don't want to reboot. And I see there's /sys/module/brd/parameters/rd_size, but it's not writable. :(
<clever>
sphalerite: zfs can use files as disks
<clever>
file A regular file. The use of files as a backing store is strongly discouraged. It is designed primarily for experimental purposes, as the fault tolerance of a
<clever>
file is only as good as the file system of which it is a part. A file must be specified by a full path.
<sphalerite>
clever: so you're saying I should make files on a tmpfs instead?
<clever>
yeah
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<emily>
that sounds like a poor basis for benchmarks
<emily>
sphalerite: tbh I would recommend just benchmarking on real disks since it'll be more representative anyway
<srk>
MichaelRaskin: :D cool, the interesting algo in pllm is the OpenCV image segmentation so individual distinct features can be fed to tesseract (to be able to identify buttons)
<MichaelRaskin>
Well, if the target number is not end-to-end performance, but core-seconds-per-GiB, then in-RAM tests are how you get it
<MichaelRaskin>
srk: fMBT seems to be actually pretty good at find-button-and-click-it
<__monty__>
They'd rather be complete than correct? : D
<srk>
complete, correct, fast .. chose two
<srk>
*choose
<srk>
but yeah, interesting order :D
<__monty__>
What's the SLOC on that project? They mention BEAM and HiPE but not their own for comparison.
<__monty__>
Looks like a cool project though.
<pie_[bnc]>
__monty__: probably
<__monty__>
pie_[bnc]: Ok, thanks.
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<colemickens>
rust/winrt looks slick, if you're into COM and friends
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<Taneb>
I need to work out why my laptop just randomly freezes sometimes...
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<eyJhb>
Taneb: a memtest is always good to run
<cole-h>
lovesegfault: (302) Exams and papers coming up, so I'm gonna wait until after all that stuff calms down
<lovesegfault>
cole-h: I didn't know it was possible to procrastinate procrastinating
<lovesegfault>
:D
<cole-h>
lovesegfault: I found a way >:D
<cole-h>
Being a transfer student really sucks, at least at CSUS... I came in as pre-CS, have to submit a Change of Major form to get full-CS, and I need to be full-CS to pursue and more upper-div courses
<cole-h>
So my enrollment goes from using the online tool to "email this address designated for CS registration lol" for classes that I don't technically satisfy the requirements for (like ones that want full-CS majors)
<lovesegfault>
My wife is a transfer at UC Berkeley and she said there's some annoyances too
<cole-h>
After this semester, I should be able to sidestep those issues, but it feels so scatterbrained to me
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<MichaelRaskin>
Meanwhile in Germany: students are basically accustomed to the idea that the online study tracking system is completely broken, so whatever is announced at a leacture once might succesfully override whatever is in the system even without extra effort
<evelyn>
i find it very difficult to believve german students actually go to lectures
<MichaelRaskin>
Some do!
<MichaelRaskin>
Of course for an advanced elective course the ratio of those showing up is higher
<MichaelRaskin>
But even for our practical course where a lot of students succesfully pass the course using only slides and we mention that there is no tracking of meeting attendance (because there is online-submitted coursework to track) — still, a majority of people show up!
<evelyn>
I don't kknow about you but I used to nevver go to lectures
<MichaelRaskin>
See how bad the trust in the online system is?
<__monty__>
evelyn: Why pay for classes if you're not intending to attend anyway? Just pay for the exam.
<qyliss>
I reported a bug and it got closed as invalid
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<qyliss>
Extracting patch information from an email
<infinisil>
Is there a better way to do it in the sourcehut ecosystem?
<qyliss>
I don't understand the question
<joepie91>
<cole-h> NixOS -> srht? :o
<joepie91>
I sure hope not
<joepie91>
I wasn't looking to start interacting with a cgit-style UI on a regular basis again :P
<infinisil>
qyliss: I'm not that familiar with sourcehut, do they have some pull-request interface instead to submit patches, or how do patches get submitted normally?
<adisbladis>
NixOS -> public samba share
<qyliss>
infinisil: email
<infinisil>
Sooo, how do people apply patches from email?
<__monty__>
infinisil: It's very email focused in all things.
<qyliss>
infinisil: git am
<__monty__>
I assume they expect patches to be send with a very conservative git send-mail?
<qyliss>
The patches I sent were sent with git send-email
<qyliss>
As far as I could tell it didn't work because I included a cover letter
<srk>
are they running public-inbox?
<cole-h>
adisbladis++ Now that's an idea I can('t) get behind.
<infinisil>
qyliss: From that ticket it seems that why it didn't work isn't clear still
<qyliss>
infinisil: I did some further testing. It was the cover letter.
<qyliss>
Which he refused to accept
<qyliss>
he said something about a libgit2 update fixing it soon, but it's still broken
<infinisil>
I see, I'd just mention it again, maybe they just had a bad day then
<qyliss>
no, this is how they usually behave unfortunately
<infinisil>
Ah, that's not very good then
<qyliss>
email can be great but sourcehut is not the answer
<infinisil>
Why not?
<cole-h>
Yeah, Drew is very polarizing. I haven't had many interactions with him, but some were pleasant, and others not-so-much.
<qyliss>
because it just doesn't work?
<qyliss>
This isn't the only problem, but it's fairly representative
<infinisil>
Hm, well I don't want to put a whole project into the trash bin just because of a single issue
<qyliss>
The maintainer being extremely hostile is more than a single issue
<infinisil>
Oh and the project is said to be an alpha version still
<qyliss>
I'd love to see SourceHut succeed
<qyliss>
Because I'd love to not have to use the horrible broken pull request model
<cole-h>
infinisil++
<{^_^}>
infinisil's karma got increased to 277
<cole-h>
The new karma "spice" (as worldofpeace so aptly put it) is entertaining :)
<qyliss>
but I'm not holding my breath
<srk>
well it's still centralized :)
<qyliss>
it's self-hostable
<infinisil>
qyliss: The pull request model is horribly broken?
<qyliss>
Oh yes
<infinisil>
cole-h: :D
<srk>
qyliss: does it support federation, sharing tickets?
<infinisil>
cole-h: I might need to tune the frequency a bit though, I don't think it should happen this often
<qyliss>
srk: email is federated
<qyliss>
Sourcehut is largely a mailing list host + web UI
<infinisil>
qyliss: Why is the pull request model horribly broken?
<qyliss>
The pull request model has no Acked-by, it requires people to all have their own online copies of a repository, it requires them to understand branches just to send a trivial fix, it is fundamentally centralised, I could go on
<qyliss>
(IRC is not really a good venue to communicate this)
<infinisil>
The Github review accepting thing isn't Acked-by?
<qyliss>
No, that's Reviewed-by
<qyliss>
There's no way of saying "I've seen this and don't object, but I haven't done a full review"
<qyliss>
Which I wish for approximately once a week
<infinisil>
Ah I see, that would be quite useful yeah
<joepie91>
half of these read like github issues and the other half read like fundamental design constraints of git, though
<infinisil>
But I mean, there's not a single PR model, we might just see github (or gitlab, etc.) add a new feature that supports this
<MichaelRaskin>
Well, if you built merge requests on top of an actual branching and metadata model, half of the problems would go away
<joepie91>
none of them seem like a fundamental issue with the PR model specifically
<__monty__>
There's no UI support but wouldn't stating that in a commit be that same thing as stating it in an email, qyliss?
<qyliss>
joepie91: how do you do PRs without requiring people to have their own forks and understand branches?
<MichaelRaskin>
I am tempted to say that understanding branches would not be so bad if the branches were done better
<qyliss>
Sending an email patch is "git commit -a && git send-email origin/master"
<joepie91>
qyliss: that would be one of the "fundamental git design constraints" -- I don't see how you could *with any model* produce patches without having a copy of the repository, and needing to understand branches is also unavoidable unless you paper over it with UI, which you can do with PRs just like with anything else
<qyliss>
joepie91: with emails, I don't need to have an online copy of a repository in addition to a local copy
<joepie91>
"having their own fork" in this case is pretty much an implementation detail of github
<qyliss>
I don't need to understand what a "fork" is, which is an extremely unintuitive concept
<MichaelRaskin>
Having a public fork would not be a problem if we had a basic ACL stuff.
<joepie91>
qyliss: you don't with "PRs" in general either
<joepie91>
just github specifically has decided to do it that way
<joepie91>
this is not an inherent problem with PRs
<infinisil>
joepie91: I guess you currently with GH need to have a fork so you can push your changes somewhere, I guess it's kind of like the "upload area"
<joepie91>
like, sure, there are plenty of issues with *how github approaches PRs*, but that doesn't necessarily apply to the entire abstract concept of a "pull request"
<MichaelRaskin>
One could accept branches with names in some namespace on the original repository
<joepie91>
and you don't need to change the fundamental concept of a PR to fix any of these issues
<joepie91>
infinisil: right.
<qyliss>
When somebody implements PRs without any of these issues I'll happily jump aboard
<MichaelRaskin>
Of course, then you want the author and committers to be able to update the request, and hten you need all commits to be auto-signed
<joepie91>
infinisil: no reason github couldn't create an ad-hoc repo URI for you to push changes for a given PR to, for example
<infinisil>
joepie91: Yeah, that would be neat
<__monty__>
qyliss: I meant in a comment on a PR thread btw, not commit.
<joepie91>
whether that's actually a net improvement is certainly a different discussion, but it would be possible :)
<MichaelRaskin>
I am waiting for a VCS that does right everything SVN does right, and is not a pain to run in a distributed manner
<qyliss>
__monty__: you could, yes, but not easily with GitHub's implementation / the Merge Button
<joepie91>
anyway, my only point here is that maybe we shouldn't throw out an entire abstract concept unless it can be argued that the issues are unavoidably inherent to that concept
<joepie91>
and with that I'm off to take a bath
<infinisil>
Yeah agreed joepie91
<__monty__>
joepie91: It sounds like you're abstracting PR (as understood in the Github/Gitlab context) all the way to the email based git workflow tbh.
<qyliss>
Yeah, okay, I'll accept that you could do PRs well
<qyliss>
Nobody ever has, and I doubt anybody ever will, but I suppose you cuold
<__monty__>
If you say a "PR" is just a request to merge some changes to a repo accompanied by patches of the changes, that's exactly the email workflow.
<qyliss>
The difference is presumably you are at some point doing a git push
<MichaelRaskin>
__monty__: well, if you want the words «pull request» to cover both Linux kernel development and GitHub, you already need some stretching
<infinisil>
I guess we should first define what a "PR" exactly is before we can talk about its ups and downs :)
<__monty__>
MichaelRaskin: I'm not arguing that basically nothing about the way github implements PRs is inherent to PRs though.
<__monty__>
MichaelRaskin: Btw, would branches be better if we just define them as a set of patches atop a version in a patch-based vcs?
<MichaelRaskin>
Well…
<MichaelRaskin>
Branches done right usually make it cheap and sometimes useful to have a branch being a _disjoint_ set of commits in the tree-based terms
<MichaelRaskin>
(Like, a full history of nixos-20.03 channel is obviously something that makes sense as a branch, right? Without losing which commits were ever the head of the branch!)
<__monty__>
I guess that would involve a lot of squashing with git's model?
<qyliss>
Or merge-only
<qyliss>
which would preserve histories
<qyliss>
At the cost of log readability and ease of bisecting
<__monty__>
But if you merge back and forth you don't have disjoint sets.
<__monty__>
Though that ease of bisecting could just be apparent. If you squash big changes to get a neat history you might end up identifying a huge patch as the problem.
<MichaelRaskin>
With git model nice branch tracking is just hard
<joepie91>
__monty__: well, yeah. excluding the people who think git === github (because that is obviously not a reasonable assumption in this context), I am following what I expect most people to interpret "PR" to mean; which is a generic "submit a change to a repository, and have it be reviewed and eventually merged or rejected by the maintainer(s)"
<joepie91>
this includes eg. what gitlab does, which they actually don't call pull requests, but merge requests
<joepie91>
(which IMO matches the intention better, but I doubt that terminology is ever going to catch on elsewhere)
<__monty__>
Minore difference though, since in git pull = fetch + merge.
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<__monty__>
I'm just saying that qyliss's standpoint on PRs comes from a very different definition.
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<__monty__>
And imo a pretty useful one because you leave us with a simple name for the collection of what most software "forges" do.
<joepie91>
__monty__: they specifically said "pull request MODEL". I don't think it's unreasonable to respond to that under the assumption that it refers to the abstract concept, rather than a specific implementation by a specific centralized service.
<qyliss>
Your definition reads like it'd include the kernel workflow, though.
<qyliss>
Which nobody has ever called a pull request, except for the occasional thing which is a pull request
<joepie91>
quite possibly.
<joepie91>
but if not, then what is the definition?
<qyliss>
A request to pull from a git repository, I'd say
<qyliss>
It can even be the same git repository, like you hinted at
<qyliss>
But I don't think you can call asking somebody to apply a patch a request to pull
<joepie91>
I don't think that definition mirrors what people generally understand "PR" to mean
<joepie91>
I don't think that most people are even aware that that is how it's implemented
<qyliss>
I don't think anybody considers sending patches to the lkml to be a pull request
<joepie91>
sure, but I think that is more a cultural thing than a clear-technical-definition thing
<joepie91>
they were historically not called PRs, therefore they are not called PRs today
<joepie91>
(considering that the term "PR" as used by github dates from *after* the kernel workflow, AFAIK)
<__monty__>
Maybe we can use the terms Patch (LKML style), PR (GitHub style) and Contribution for the abstract concept?
<qyliss>
I'm not saying historically
<joepie91>
__monty__: contribution is a muuuuuch broader concept, that may or may not involve patchsets
<qyliss>
I have never ever heard anybody, in recent times or historically, say "I made a PR to the kernel", for example
<joepie91>
qyliss: I feel like you misunderstand my point. what I'm trying to say is that it is probably not called a PR *because* it is historically not called a PR, not because it falls outside of a reasonable technical definition
<qyliss>
You're arguing for a definition by saying it's what most people would understand it to mean, but I don't think that's right at all
<pie_[bnc]>
"ive branched out into distributed build tools" hmm
<joepie91>
people don't tend to change terminology for the same habit/thing just because it is called something else elsewhere, even if it would fall under the new term
<qyliss>
Either we are interested in a linguistic-descriptive definition, in which case these things are not PRs, or we are interested in a technical definition, in which case these are not PRs
<joepie91>
that's an IMO unreasonably rigid view on terminologyu
<qyliss>
They are neither technically _nor_ colloquially pull requests
<joepie91>
technical definitions do still need to take into account common perception, if they're meant to be used by a broader audience
<joepie91>
it just isn't solely determined by that
<qyliss>
But the common perception _also_ doesn't perceive these things to be pull requests
<joepie91>
there's no use for a technical definition that people continuously misunderstand because it strays too far from what they are familiar with
<pie_[bnc]>
i would like a higher res picture of that 2:50 twitter diagram 0_o what in the world are they running
<qyliss>
I really don't see this conversation going anywhere so I am going to disengage.
<joepie91>
qyliss: the common perception doesn't perceive the kernel workflow as anything because the vast majority of people don't even know it exists, and it is a largely insular group of people that have been involved for many years
<joepie91>
I don't consider this relevant data in the bigger picture
<qyliss>
please don't ping me after I've already said I'm not going to participate in this conversation any more?
<joepie91>
I'd already sent that before reading it... IRC is not perfectly synchronous :|
<qyliss>
Wow, that's some delay
<qyliss>
But okay :)
<MichaelRaskin>
Well, the delay is read-start-answering-send-_then_ read forward
<__monty__>
pie_[bnc]: Sounds interesting.
<joepie91>
MichaelRaskin: exactly that :)\
<joepie91>
minus the \
<qyliss>
I usually don't hit return on a message until I've read everything that's been sent
<qyliss>
Guess I'd just assumed that was how everybody did it
<qyliss>
But it totally makes sense not to
<qyliss>
especially if already involved in heavy discussion
<MichaelRaskin>
I guess it depends on the kind of conversations that formed the habits. For high-flow and high-density different strategies make sense
<qyliss>
life is forever learning how to communicate with different people :)
<joepie91>
I tend to have multiple conversations at once (IRC support) where that strategy doesn't really work, you pretty much have to treat messages as immutable statements there
<joepie91>
and process them in batches
<MichaelRaskin>
Life is forever learning the ways in which people can be different!
<qyliss>
yes!
<joepie91>
hence why I don't read back until I've sent a message :P
<drakonis>
can we agree that the github model isn't efficient enough for a set of repositories on the scale of nixpkgs?
<drakonis>
hundreds of PRs per week
<joepie91>
I can agree that github specifically is deficient in a ton of ways
<joepie91>
contribution management on high-traffic projects being one of them
<srk>
MichaelRaskin <3
<joepie91>
(this includes issues)
<__monty__>
I'm not sure which model is better for that though?
<drakonis>
any model in which it can be managed without needing to trundle through a sea of PRs and manually approve them one by one
<joepie91>
I'm trying to avoid the term "model" here because it's not really a matter of model, more of available tooling
<joepie91>
IMO anyway
<__monty__>
Do any of those exist, drakonis?
<MichaelRaskin>
Well, definitely adding the intersection of capabilities of standalone issue trackers would already be a large improvement…
<joepie91>
like how github basically doesn't have any real tooling for tracking the state of issues over time
<drakonis>
__monty__: i think that having to walk through existing PRs or issues one at a time on a web UI isn't exactly my dream method of managing the sea
<adisbladis>
qyliss: Is there another UI framework? ;)
<qyliss>
not that i know of
<gchristensen>
emacs of course
<ldlework>
hehe
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<MichaelRaskin>
I think Neo Ed is called sed?
<FireFly>
ah yes, the super editor
<adisbladis>
Emacs is life, emacs is love
<gchristensen>
adisbladis: I was tempted to set up libcaca + vnc + vscode for pairing
<adisbladis>
gchristensen: That'd be amazing
<adisbladis>
Maybe not good, but amazing
<evelyn>
isn't neo ed known as visual mode
<gchristensen>
following the spirit of neovim, neoed wouldbe ed but with all the cruft removed
<adisbladis>
gchristensen: No question marks!
<gchristensen>
exactly, for that clean, minimal, intuitive experience
<adisbladis>
I can't think of much else to remove tbh
<gchristensen>
<adisbladis>
=)
<adisbladis>
a
<gchristensen>
:)
<evelyn>
should be possible for it to guess what you want based on use of original ed
<evelyn>
a novel application of neural network technology has presented itself
<gchristensen>
so do fish users make their user's shell fish, or?
<__monty__>
gchristensen: As in chsh? Yes.
<samueldr>
go fish, I don't have a fish shell on my system ;)
<__monty__>
I mean, obviously I don't speak for all fish users.
<__monty__>
gchristensen: Why? Are you worried about interaction with scripts? Shebangs make it a non-issue.
<cole-h>
I chsh fish as well
<MichaelRaskin>
__monty__: feed-to-shell in some programs might make it a small issue, but I guess fish is similar enough for single commands to look the same anyway
<MichaelRaskin>
(I tried to have a Common Lisp setup for a shell… that did not go well)
<__monty__>
I've basically never run into issues. But it's not like I run that many programs.
<__monty__>
Only thing is getting used to the syntax that is/isn't supported.
<gchristensen>
MichaelRaskin: are you a fishuser?
<MichaelRaskin>
I use fish with fork, and there is never shell involved, only a tin, and some tomato sauce.
<MichaelRaskin>
The other kind of fish, no.
<gchristensen>
aye
<cole-h>
The only thing I really miss in fish is the ability to do something like `$(nix-build -A zoxide)/bin/zoxide` and similar
<adisbladis>
eval (nix-build -A zoxide)/bin/zoxide
<adisbladis>
?
<cole-h>
omg
<cole-h>
OMG
<cole-h>
✨ adisbladis
<{^_^}>
adisbladis's karma got increased to 61
<cole-h>
I had always tried `(nix-build -A zoxide)/bin/zoxide` which obviously didn't work
<__monty__>
I'm not sure why fish doesn't allow that. A "security" feature I suppose.
<cole-h>
It's because they don't allow command substitutions
<infinisil>
Hm, but seriously, what if you could submit and control PR's through IRC
<infinisil>
Like, maybe have a channel #nixpkgs-pr-12345, where you have commands to control it
<__monty__>
cole-h: Yeah but *why* don't they allow them?
<__monty__>
You can work around them with eval and command.
<MichaelRaskin>
Matrix has a bot for issue-filing from the Matrix HQ room, one might even be able to use it from IRC bridged room
<__monty__>
But if inexperienced users' security is the reason why not make the error message "Command substitution isn't allowed *because* blah blah, short example showing the problem"
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<joepie91>
infinisil: not sure I understand what problem that solves, other than the "neat!" facotr
<joepie91>
factor*
<infinisil>
Good point lol
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<joepie91>
(not that the "neat!" factor is necessarily a bad reason :P so long as it doesn't make things a net negative)
<genevino>
giraffes aren't real! wake up, sheeple!
<joepie91>
first substantial explanation/analysis I've seen of what's probably the most famous rollercoaster accident in history
<joepie91>
(if you've ever seen one of the shitty clickbait articles/videos going "10 SHOCKING THEME PARK ACCIDENTS", this one was probably at the top :P)