gchristensen changed the topic of #nixos-chat to: NixOS but much less topical || https://logs.nix.samueldr.com/nixos-chat
<MichaelRaskin> A part of the problem is that whatever you do, organising a large amount of files requires skimming and entering _a lot_ of information.
<MichaelRaskin> And it's, you know, inherent complexity, not incidental
<infinisil> Maybe that's only a problem for you because you use commands for everything?
<infinisil> Because specialized GUI's, whether you want it or not, are often just faster
<MichaelRaskin> Like, there is information-theoretical problem, no?
<MichaelRaskin> You need to specify what the hell you are doing.
<infinisil> Moving files around for example. With an expanded tree view of a directory in a GUI, that's one click-drag
<MichaelRaskin> (I am good with quickly writing working POSIX shell code, which means that some kinds of overhead are low)
<infinisil> Takes a second
<MichaelRaskin> Yeah, the only thing I do in mc is deciding which of the old DB dumps to keep
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<infinisil> Or say, a tagging interface, where it shows you one directory/file at a time, you can press keys like "j" for the tag "job", "d" for development, and if it's ambiguous it shows an autocompletion of tags
<infinisil> Press enter for the next one
<infinisil> While I was still using macOS, I had exactly this for images, was pretty nice
<MichaelRaskin> I am pretty sure inverting the workflow (looking at filename completion options and entering wildcards) would be faster for me
<MichaelRaskin> Well, yeah, if you have a ton of images, there of course you need GUI to see them conveniently
<MichaelRaskin> But you could multiselect a bunch and right-drag them to the tag-setting directory and say you want to create a symlink
<MichaelRaskin> (that requires having all these tag-setting directories open in small windows to the side of the main directory)
<infinisil> Hm yeah
<MichaelRaskin> Right, I did not say _why_ I actually run QueryFS, still
<MichaelRaskin> Mostly for emails
<MichaelRaskin> Because there I get a steady stream of entries, with a ton of meaningful metadata already set…
<MichaelRaskin> And I have a query for all the emails not yet marked as read
<MichaelRaskin> And then I can go there with Vim and do whatever
<infinisil> That sounds pretty good
<MichaelRaskin> (and given I already have everything set up for such handling of email, I use a very similar setup for processing the stuff I auto-grab from the web)
<MichaelRaskin> Be it xkcd, lobsters or «In the pipeline»
<MichaelRaskin> And Freefall, obviously
<MichaelRaskin> I also use it as a password manager.
<MichaelRaskin> (with passwords encrypted-in-DB and access being run-time unlockable/relockable)
<MichaelRaskin> Implementation language is course Common Lisp, and the queries are translated to Lisp in and compiled, and I can reload a single query in runtime
<MichaelRaskin> I dunno; it might be that for images tagging just works better; I might have less diversity of graphical files handled than most people.
<cole-h> What's freefall? Is this freefall.purrsia.com?
<MichaelRaskin> Yep
<cole-h> s/this/it
<MichaelRaskin> It's absolutely great, although probably hard to read not from beginning.
<MichaelRaskin> (I enjoy each update as a single strip, but there is a lot of context accumulated over time)
<cole-h> I'll have to take a look sometime
<MichaelRaskin> Actually, there is another link to read Freefall: http://tangent128.name/depot/toys/freefall/freefall-flytable.html#1
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<cole-h> I'm thinking I need a better keyboard. Been using this Corsair K70 for a few years now, and it's just not really comfortable...
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<pie_[bnc]> so that youre guaranteed to use it wrong if you try to? <ajs124> another "I'm not sure it _should_ be documented" feature
<pie_[bnc]> whoops, stuck way up in scroll
<pie_[bnc]> and then you dont have to explain a brand new time why its bad every time someone discovers it
<pie_[bnc]> because now I'm going to ask why scopedimport is bad
<gchristensen> "what is 'is'", pie_[bnc]?
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<pie_[bnc]> gchristensen: you lost me
<gchristensen> who is me?
<gchristensen> scopedimport (1) lets you redefine builtins to be whatever you want, (2) turns of some caches, slowing things down
<pie_[bnc]> ok that makes sense
<pie_[bnc]> doesnt seem any more terrifying than changing how the interpreter works
<pie_[bnc]> if you break stuff like that it shouldnt be too surprising
<gchristensen> :)
<gchristensen> yeah not the worst thing
<pie_[bnc]> leaking memory might be more subtle
<pie_[bnc]> well
<pie_[bnc]> s/more//
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<ashkitten> i need to figure out how to put a xeon phi in my computer without breaking a pcie slot, they don't have the mounting things like other desktop pcie cards
<cole-h> Why not a ribbon?
<ashkitten> what?
<cole-h> I think they're called risers
<ashkitten> oh
<cole-h> Sorry, name slipped my mind lol
<samueldr> put a cute bow on it
<cole-h> 🎀
<ashkitten> ✨ samueldr
<{^_^}> samueldr's karma got increased to 219
<samueldr> you mean the metal bracket with screw thingy?
<ashkitten> yes
<ashkitten> it does not have that
<samueldr> good, at first I was somehow thinking of the bit at the end that mates with the release lever and was confused
<ashkitten> it's got some screw holes but idk if that's useful at all
<samueldr> I'm looking at google image search and see many with such a metal bracket, bummer yours seemingly doesn't have it
<samueldr> if I understand right it's completely missing the part to the left?
<ashkitten> weird
<ashkitten> yes
<samueldr> I wonder if it's an "accessory", where for some uses it wasn't part of it
<ashkitten> unsure
<samueldr> not sure if there's anything useful (at large) in there
<samueldr> found it when searching quickly if the mounting bracket was like a part
<samueldr> (it might not even be for the right phi!)
<samueldr> though page 20 and 21 call it the "I/O Bracket"
<samueldr> considering they call it a "standard" bracket, that advice sounds not too bad
<ky0ko> the bracket was not mounted on the card when shipped, you have to mount it yourself if you need it - and many didn't, and just tossed it. supermicro made machines that the cards mounted into directly without the bracket
<samueldr> that explains it
<ky0ko> the brackets are standard in the sense of the way they mount to a computer case being standardized, but not to the card
<samueldr> kinda what I assumed by "standard"
<ky0ko> and none of the brackets i've seen have mounted at the top and bottom like on this - it's always on the back side...
<ky0ko> we do have risers but ashkitten said something about not wanting to use one
<ashkitten> not the ones we have, anyways. theres ones that are just a ribbon cable
<ashkitten> ours are a janky pcie 1x to usb to pcie 16x that need an external molex connector because the usb cable doesn't have enough pins to carry the power
<cole-h> Molex? Now that's a name I haven't heard in a long time...
<ashkitten> less dangerous than sata according to my experience (editors note: taking ash's experience at face value may be detrimental to your health)
<cole-h> Hehe
<ky0ko> number of sata connectors that have caught fire in ash's computer: 1
<ky0ko> number of molex connectors that have caught fire in ash's computer: 0
<cole-h> Ouch
<ashkitten> it's okay, the drives were okay
<cole-h> The most important thing.
<ky0ko> charred, but intact
<ashkitten> they work great still
<cole-h> Mmmm, I love the smell of crispy drives when I wake up in the morning
<ashkitten> i do not have a backup solution still
<cole-h> I have a backup solution. It entails backing up to an external that is within a centimeter of my computer.
<ashkitten> better than me
<cole-h> At least I've verified it worked (or at least, a subset of it worked) on a few occasions, like when I accidentally deleted my Firefox profile...
* cole-h slinks off to bed.
<cole-h> Good luck with that PCIe stuff
<ashkitten> ty
<ashkitten> have good sleep
<cole-h> We'll see
<cole-h> ;^)
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<eyJhb> I already hate MS Teams...
<eyJhb> I can see that it stars/stops being a output device thingy on/off
<eyJhb> So it distorbs the sound
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<eyJhb> Robot voices all over
<joepie91> hahaha
<joepie91> ar: reminds me of how they accidentally flipped the footprint of the audio jack on the hackerhotel(?) badge
<joepie91> and they ended up having to patch it in software
<ar> joepie91: swapped left/right channels?
<joepie91> ar: IIRC it was slightly worse than that
<joepie91> there's a thread somewhere(tm) on Twitter I believe
<ar> the worse thing to happen would be to mix up the ground with something
<MichaelRaskin> If it is audio jack, mixing up ground might still be not that bad
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<armin> :)
<srk> o/
<armin> helloooo :)
<srk> wanted to play with mandelbulber recently, you can explore fractals with it, right?
<armin> yes absolutely. fractal settings files are simple plaintext files that you can easily store or give away (or put in a gist and tweet the url of it)
<srk> I remember a similar program we've played with few years ago with 3D enabled projector but I'm not sure if it was mandelbulber
<armin> if you want an example: https://unix.porn/rumschlurfen.png <- this is the resulting image file https://unix.porn/rumschlurfen.fract <- this is the source fractal settings file you can feed to mandelbulber2
<srk> yeah, I think it was mandelbulber, it looks familiar :D
<armin> there are 2 major problems when doing this: a) the larger your image, the longer it will take, so making changes and exploring new fragments takes ages b) you won't want to render this on your desktop machine because it takes ages
<armin> remember there's mandelbulber3d and mandelbulber2 or something
<srk> aha
<srk> what do you use for rendering?
<armin> a remote machine i'm ssh'ed into (amd ryzen 9 with 16 cores or something)
<srk> hmm, no GPU accel?
<armin> unfortunately not, it's expensive and i have too many expensive hobbys
<armin> the whole setup is totally not perfect and super hacky :)
<srk> haha, know that feeling, will try it with 1070 GTX :D
<armin> (:
<srk> my desktop is pretty lowend but GPU is good :D
<armin> https://unix.porn/fractals/ <- that gallery here has quite a lot images i made and it's hosted on a very very slow computer (raspberry pi 3 under the sofa at home at a friend of mine)
<srk> awesome
<srk> I wonder how it would look with oculus or similar glasses
<MichaelRaskin> I guess there are some things in rendering where integrated GPUs beat the corresponding host CPUs hands-down, no?
<srk> it was pretty cool with HD 3D projector
<srk> MichaelRaskin: firefox :D
<armin> MichaelRaskin: yeah absolutely, there are acceleration techniques that only expensive graphics cards support. i never used these, but you could greatly enhancy rendering times with these.
<armin> some of my images actually rendered more than a week.
<MichaelRaskin> Of course there are expensive ones, but I think just using the normal GUI-targeted APIs on the built-in GPU of this Ryzen could be a boost
<armin> i believe what mandelbulber2 supports is "OpenCL"
<armin> if you're adventurous give that a go :)
<joepie91> ah, OpenCL, the illusive GPU computation API that My Hardware Is Supposed To Support But It Has Somehow Never Actually Worked
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* srk installing
<srk> borken here :D src/include_header_wrapper.hpp:100:10: fatal error: CL/cl.hpp: No such file or directory 100 | #include <CL/cl.hpp>
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<armin> srk: is that from a "make" command?
<armin> looks like CL header files are missing.
<srk> nix-shell -p mandelbulber (but I'm on some random commit so it might not mean much, will take a look later)
<srk> armin: friend sent me https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oFiDcazicdk .. wondering how long it took to render :D
<armin> srk: i'm currently wearing a meshuggah hoodie :)
<srk> hahaa ;) :D
<armin> srk: i'd consider myself a huge fan, too. got that on all possible media, including vinyl, minidisc, tape and whatnot. :)
<armin> srk: i think i have at least 4 albums of them on vinyl
<srk> armin: I'm not _that_ huge BM fan but I like a lot of that stuff, especially live!
<srk> armin: we have Brutal Assault here ;)
<armin> :D
<savanni> If I'm creating a derivation for a package that I don't maintain, but where I'll be keeping the derivation up to date for a while, do I put myself or the original author as the maintainer in the metadata?
<gchristensen> what do you mean you don't maintain it?
<qyliss> savanni: yourself
<qyliss> maintainer doesn't mean the person who writes the software
<savanni> Cool. I suspected that, but wanted to be sure.
<savanni> gchristensen: it's a tiny python app that somebody else wrote, but that I have to use to stabilize my system.
<gchristensen> ah cool
<gchristensen> wait what is it?? :o
<savanni> ZenStates
<savanni> Well, ZenStates-Linux... https://github.com/r4m0n/ZenStates-Linux
<gchristensen> ah
<savanni> Well, it doesn't 100% stabilize my system, but I no longer fear to put the system to sleep.
<gchristensen> nice
<etu> Hmm, that looks like something that might be useful on my T495
<infinisil> Oops, seems like we have some more unicorns
<savanni> Same. I was going to link to my configuration.nix to show etu how I'm using this program.
<infinisil> (didn't get a unicorn yet, but I'm expecting to see some)
<etu> savanni: Please do! :)
<savanni> Which, despite the documentation, I actually have to disable the C6 state before *every* sleep, because the processor seems to keep turning it on. So, I learned how to add systemd services to configuration.nix.
<savanni> I got an octocat falling into a canyon. That is not a rainbow unicorn. :(
<infinisil> > unicorn
<{^_^}> "🦄"
<etu> savanni: Maybe it's worth making a service out of it?
<savanni> I'll need guidance on how to do that, but probably.
<savanni> Even likely.
<etu> And if it works good enough we could probably add that to the nixos-hardware profile for that system
<savanni> Okay, let's get real... I've always wanted to know how to make a NixOS service, and never read enough of the repo to figure it out. :D
<savanni> I please yes. I worked for months to get this machine to the point that fails to wake from sleep only one time out of twenty, as opposed to one time out of three.
<etu> savanni: A package is a good start to making a service :)
<savanni> Well I just got my first ever nixpkgs package shipped, so I'm excited to ship more!
<gchristensen> <3 savanni
<{^_^}> savanni's karma got increased to 1
<savanni> Aww, thank you!
<savanni> I also have a partial derivation written for my favorite Go UI, but when I last touched it, it crashed on start.
<savanni> (Go, the board game)
<gchristensen> oh cool cc ldlework
<savanni> I've not met idlework. What do they work on?
<gchristensen> ldlework has been teaching cole-h drakonis and I Go :)
<savanni> Ooo, are y'all playing online? What network? I tend to play more when I have people I know to play against.
<gchristensen> we've been using https://online-go.com/
<savanni> Sweet. I'm savanni.dgerinel on that server!
<pie_[bnc]> gotta go fast
<eyJhb> ping makefu
<makefu> pong
<eyJhb> Did it work? (lightdm)
<makefu> actually i have not yet rebooted my machine but i will test it now for you :)
<eyJhb> Perfect, lets see if it was just me! Hoping that you will be alive in a minute or so then ;)
<makefu> :D
<makefu> on deployment i got a long list of warnings, i will surely fix them in the next release :D
<ldlework> savanni: which Go AI?
<ldlework> Sabaki?
<ldlework> err s/AI/UI
<makefu> eyJhb: i am back, gui came up most things look ok
<makefu> gpg-agent is not working anymore though ....
<makefu> scdaemon[2477]: pcsc_list_readers failed: unknown PC/SC error code (0x8010002e)
<makefu> can't connect to the PIN entry module '/nix/store/h5a7klybb4jy9yhb3kzh0f7c5k2wd34r-gnupg-2.2.19/bin/pinentry': IPC connect call failed
<makefu> failed to unprotect the secret key: No pinentry
<lassulus> works for me (with yubikey)
<makefu> i am not even using a smart card or anythin
<makefu> i disabled home-assistant gpg-agent and enabled the new upstream service and also removed everything gpg-agent related from my shell inits
<makefu> now everything works for ssh
<Taneb> Alpha 1 of OpenSSL 3.0 is out
<ar> btw, some people here were interested in cosmo communicator?
<ar> this is how the default screen protector looks like after a few (since early december) months of use: https://arachnist.is-a.cat/c/133cddaa0d963fe60de7bc6bfc99ab532b72a461.JPG
<__monty__> 😬 That looks terrible.
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<savanni> Idlework: not an AI, but yeah, I'm trying to get Sabaki bundled.
<ldlework> savanni: good luck
<savanni> If I'm really clever, I'll figure out how to get LeelaZero and GnuGo as optional dependencies.
<savanni> If I had all the time in the world, I'd also see about getting Sabaki to have plugins to a couple of the go servers, too. But i don't have *that* much time, so I'll be using it just to keep a catalogue of games and to play the AI.
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<__monty__> : ( The new notification UI is terrible. It's only designed for a "click an item and use your browser's back button to get back to the list" workflow.
<__monty__> When opening an item in a new tab it doesn't mark it as read until reloading the page.
<__monty__> That's 90% of my workflow : (
<ornxka> what do i do if compiling chromium takes longer than the time between security updates
<cole-h> Rent a beefy server and compile it there
<MichaelRaskin> Use Firefox
<ornxka> i switched to chromium out of spite after firefox broke all my extensions
<gchristensen> why o you need to complie chromium?
<gchristensen> (ie: does hydra not provide it?)
<ornxka> its for i686
<gchristensen> ack.
<gchristensen> ouch
<ornxka> (luckily i have an 8-core ryzen to build it on but it still takes all day somehow)
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<MichaelRaskin> ornxka: but Firefox still has better extensions than Chromium.
<ornxka> did they ever get downthemall to work again
<MichaelRaskin> Half
<joepie91> ornxka: that seems like not a particularly useful switch, considering that Firefox basically adopted the extension API of Chrome :)
<ornxka> joepie91: this is true
<MichaelRaskin> And still extends on top of this API
<ornxka> but somebody must pay
<ornxka> hence the qualifier "out of spite"
<joepie91> and the frustration with extension breakage is understandable, but on the other hand the previous situation with Firefox extensions was a ticking timebomb...
<ornxka> maybe i will switch back some day
<joepie91> there wasn't really any way to go but this one
<ornxka> i dunno, it seemed fine to me
<joepie91> or well, there was, but the alternative approach would have effectively meant the end of Firefox
<ornxka> people shouldnt be using unsafe extensions anyway
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<joepie91> ornxka: right, but that's the problem, the costs were mostly invisible
<joepie91> the old extensions API was a nightmare in terms of maintainability of the Firefox codebase, because it allowed way too much access to internals
<joepie91> this meant that there was a ton of technical debt that couldn't be cleaned up because it'd break extensions
<ornxka> i can get that but the reason the switch was a problem was because a lot of the previous functionality was simply dropped
<joepie91> much of Firefox' long-standing performance issues were a direct consequence of this
<ornxka> meaning many extensions were literally just impossible to port over to the new api
<joepie91> ornxka: yes, most likely because noone had figured out how to provide a non-leaky API for that yet, and if Firefox hadn't cleared the way for performance improvements, it would basically be signing its own death warrant
<ornxka> i dont mind that there was a switch, and that it broke things, i mostly just minded that it was an objective regression in terms of usability: things that worked previously were made both unworking and unable to fix, forever
<ornxka> unable to be fixed*
<joepie91> so quite literally, the choice was between "Firefox with extensions broken" or "no Firefox at all"
<joepie91> there was no "Firefox with all extensions intact" happy path
<joepie91> the FF team has actually written quite a bit on this topic, publicly
<ornxka> but surely you could have just added some kind of like... "make system() call" part to the API so stuff that needed to do so, could
<joepie91> ornxka: no, because providing equivalent functionality without a ton of API design research first, would have meant providing the same access to internals again that caused issues previously
<ornxka> i feel like their decision was mostly made to tap into the chromium extension ecosystem rather than being driven by purely technical decisions about what extension APIs should be and are good for firefox
<ornxka> calling out to external programs does not require a lot of access to internals i dont think
<joepie91> plugin API design is very non-trivial, it's possibly one of the hardest not-outright-unsolvable problems in software development
<ornxka> and yet its impossible in the current API
<joepie91> ornxka: like I said, their decisions were extensively documented, and in this case actually plausible
<joepie91> ornxka: calling out to external programs wouldn't solve the complaints that people had either
<joepie91> (leaving aside the obvious security issues)
<ornxka> it would solve my complaint where extensions that relied on being able to do that were not able to be ported to the new api
<joepie91> ornxka: great, but that is only a tiny tiny subset of affected extensions.
<joepie91> the vast majority of extension author complaints were about internal FF APIs
<joepie91> not system() calls
<joepie91> my point here being, this was not some sort of arbitrary poorly-thought-out change
<joepie91> Firefox has plenty of those, but this wasn't one of them
<joepie91> they just ran out of options
<ornxka> i just think that they were not being driven by purely technical impetii when they decided what to allow in the new api, and that they have a different vision about what extensions should be able to do than the one that existed in the past (where extensions could objectively do more) and the one that i think is the best and most useful
<joepie91> great, but all the evidence shows otherwise
<ornxka> probably i will switch back when chromium breaks adblocking
<ornxka> unless firefox follows suit :p
<ornxka> which there is apparently a precedent for
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<ashkitten> ugh. wayland is not ready yet.
<ashkitten> there's so many things missing that you can do in x11
<ashkitten> accessibility being the biggest offender
<gchristensen> I 100% believe that
<__monty__> I thought ubuntu had made the switch already?
<ashkitten> ubuntu does whatever they want
<__monty__> Yeah but I'd assume canonical would be somewhat conservative? Given they target professional settings where the latest and greatest isn't often appreciated if it comes at a usability cost?
<ashkitten> it's not possible to use voice controls under wayland because there's no protocol for accessibility inputs
<ashkitten> that sorta thing pisses me off because i know it's just gonna be endless bikeshedding
<gchristensen> devs who don't care about accessibility and think it is just busywork :(
<ashkitten> thing is, drew devault cares about accessibility. i'm honestly surprised this is the case
<ashkitten> he's like, the only techbro asshole i know of that cares about accessibility
<__monty__> Maybe this is one of those things that's downstreamed to DEs/WMs now?
<gchristensen> surely, since all of wayland is
<Valodim> ..so say the nix folks with their "read the code" take on documentation ;)
<ashkitten> i mean, we need a standardized protocol for it
<ashkitten> Valodim: wait, what read the code take?
<joepie91> <ashkitten> he's like, the only techbro asshole i know of that cares about accessibility
<joepie91> this says so much in one sentence :P
<ashkitten> i don't like drew but he's sometimes okay
<ashkitten> always an asshole
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<ashkitten> i don't think he'd object to hearing that
<cole-h> I prefer "abrasive"
<__monty__> ashkitten: But does it have to be part of Wayland? Or would it be reasonable of them to take their hands off and say "we can't take on this burden?"
<ashkitten> basically everything that makes wayland usable is an extension. i'm not proposing that it be part of the core wayland protocol
<samueldr> only ending up splintering all parts that were once working in unison :(
* joepie91 glances at the client-side decorations disaster
<joepie91> I don't think that "let the ecosystem sort it out" has historically worked very well for wayland
<ashkitten> no, because gnome historically doesn't give a crap what anyone else is doing
<ashkitten> gnome implements their own protocols and kde/wlroots implement theirs
<samueldr> and let's be real, other than sway, gnome, and kde, what else is there?
<cole-h> Nice, getting unicorns on GH agaibnn
<gchristensen> great
<cole-h> Fix spelling where applicable
* joepie91 strikes through
<MichaelRaskin> I guess accessibility would require actually getting around to designin Wayland protocol-level security model
<gchristensen> hah
<samueldr> designing is the thing that happens in Adobe® Photoshop®™, right?
<samueldr> if I lock all layers (thus having padlocks) is it a secure design?
<ashkitten> accessibility needs to happen way the hell now, tbh
<ashkitten> way the hell years ago
<samueldr> was going to say just that
<ashkitten> it makes me so angry
<ashkitten> like, this isn't just a thing that would be nice to have
<ashkitten> it's a thing that makes it difficult for people *i know personally* to use computers without
<samueldr> I find it weird how (I assume) they assumed an application is mostly a spray of pixels in a window, and not something that should be described in other ways that could have made that easier to deal with
<samueldr> if, at the protocol level, all text was exposed
<samueldr> all positioning exposed
<ashkitten> i'm not really sure exactly how it works
<samueldr> it's not only helpful for accessibility
<ashkitten> windows gets accessibility pretty good, iirc
<ashkitten> we should be aiming to do better than windows
<gchristensen> (and it would be admirable to even aim as good as windows -- they do a great job)
<ashkitten> ^^
<MichaelRaskin> samueldr: if only a typical window was described as an hierarchy of semantically relevant parts on the protocol level, with the rendering server drawing them in a way suitable for the user and for the hardware…
<MichaelRaskin> Wait, that's called original X protocol
<samueldr> that would be quire revolutionary, MichaelRaskin
<MichaelRaskin> Then HTML
<samueldr> dang it, you went too quickly
<MichaelRaskin> Then _both_ were broken by pixel-hunting control freaks
<samueldr> and there I was being "sensible" (read: I was making concessions) that those would end up bein metadata about the spray of pixel data
<gchristensen> I would love it if there were an X server which did the right things for me
<ashkitten> gotta love all those new gui frameworks that let you deploy as a webapp by... drawing onto a canvas that's totally opaque to accessibility tools
<joepie91> ashkitten: but don't you get it, the DOM is bad
<ashkitten> i'm going to eat the DOM
<ashkitten> and spit it in their faces
<gchristensen> so how about chromeos ...
<joepie91> I had to write some JS to interact with it once 15 years ago and it was unpleasant, therefore noone should be using a DOM!
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<joepie91> gchristensen: more seriously, Firefox OS.
<ashkitten> my head is going to explode
<samueldr> gchristensen: you can't say anything good, or sensible about that
<joepie91> gchristensen: this never made it out of their engineering department it seems, but Firefox OS was designed to be fully inspectable, DOM-based
<gchristensen> neat
<joepie91> you could literally modify your homescreen with devtools while running
<drakonis> it lives on as KaiOS
<samueldr> joepie91: huh? wasn't there some devices shipping with firefox os, and it being installable on a couple more?
<joepie91> drakonis: an empty shell of its former self
<samueldr> that's way out the engineering department
<samueldr> BUT, it wasn't a success
<MichaelRaskin> I think modern WebAssembly game have regained the long-forgotten in the Web game realm ability to actually crash
<joepie91> drakonis: it has none of the stuff that actually made FFOS interesting
<samueldr> or was there something more?
<joepie91> samueldr: I mean it in the sense that this model, of a fully inspectable and hackable DOM-based environment, was never really publicized
<samueldr> though, what was made from the broken pieces of boot2gecko (and family) is horrible (kaiOS)
<joepie91> barely anyone knows that this exists, or that this was possible
<samueldr> joepie91: ah
<drakonis> it got shipped in brazilian phones lol
<drakonis> really disappointing though
<joepie91> samueldr: I only know about it because an FFOS dev literally demo'd it to me in person at their Paris HQ
<joepie91> I don't think that version ever made it into prod
<samueldr> I was pretty interested in following their dev, but it kinda fizzled up quickly
<qyliss> there's a firefoxos phone in this apartment
<joepie91> the communication/marketing on that project was horrible
<joepie91> and, I suspect, the main reason it failed
<joepie91> which is unfortunately becoming a theme with Mozilla
<qyliss> I've never played with it though
<joepie91> samueldr: yeah exactly. Mozilla doesn't seem to have realized that the path to market presence would be keeping the nerds and not-quite-nerds engaged with trickles of news and demos and exciting hackability features
<MichaelRaskin> joepie91: also, this seems to be a theme with everything remotely decent mobile
<joepie91> samueldr: so many of the details and interesting tidbits never left their office
<samueldr> kaiOS shouldn't be trusted, and I hope the OEM (I won't name) will get what it deserves for blatantly violating gplv3
<drakonis> oh wonderful, license violations
<samueldr> I don't know that the gplv3 violation was because of kaiOS itself, so don't put that on kaiOS
<samueldr> but an OEM shipped busybox
<joepie91> samueldr: but yeah, FFOS dev went on for some time after it seemed to have fizzled out publicly... just quietly
<samueldr> no source attribution (oh) and no way to install custom things (ah)
<joepie91> which is a shame, I really wanted to see it succeed :(
<qyliss> busybox is v2 isn't it?
<samueldr> joepie91: yeah, I was following it with some interest at the time
<samueldr> qyliss: v3
<qyliss> damn
<qyliss> good for them
<drakonis> i'm fairly certain that the crappy cheap low cost phones sold in here are chock full of violations
* samueldr verifies
<qyliss> busybox is notable because they have actually enforced the gpl in the past
<samueldr> qyliss: no, gplv2
<samueldr> it must have been another bit that was v3
<samueldr> oh, right, dictionaries
<samueldr> still, gplv2 for busybox in itself is still a paddlin'
<drakonis> and then there's toybox
<samueldr> a dictionary (that I wasn't able to get proper proof of it being there) is listed in the rom
<drakonis> which goes for public domain
<__monty__> How much effort should you invest as a maintainer into overcoming language barriers?
<samueldr> and is GPLv3
<samueldr> __monty__: depends, but my best estimate is as much as the other party
<joepie91> __monty__: "language barriers" in what sense?
<samueldr> (assuming linguistics)
<__monty__> A new contributor who I think is Ukranian. I'm having a real hard time understanding their english. It feels like worse than google translate levels. (Though I don't have any experience with google translate's quality on Ukranian.)
<drakonis> oh?
<joepie91> __monty__: when this happens, I usually ask someone to use more words to describe something, or include pictures/screenshots/examples. also make sure that it's actually a language barrier, and they are not just failing to include certain details
<samueldr> sounds like you'll need a liberal application of patience
<joepie91> __monty__: I've found that a lot of the time, people try to speak a language beyond how well they actually understand it, and asking them to describe it with more words kind of counteracts that, and makes it easier to distill meaning from it
<joepie91> (also because things are often repeated in different formulations)
<MichaelRaskin> Different words for same things help even outside the language barrier!
<joepie91> __monty__: my last-ditch approach is usually to ask them to write in their own native language, and then run it through various translation things and/or ask a friend myself
<MichaelRaskin> For Ukrainian I would probably recommend translating via Yandex to Russian and then via DeepL to English
<MichaelRaskin> (never tried that chain, though, my native language being Russian)
<ornxka> i think there is a certain point where communication just becomes more or less impossible
<ornxka> i wouldnt feel remotely confident in being successful in my task if i knew the other end had to run my communications through internet translators and neural networks
<MichaelRaskin> Russian-Ukrainian translation should be pretty fine (closely related languages, it is mostly about vocabulary)
<ornxka> i would be mostly concerned about the russian->english step and then adding an additional step on top of that seems too much
<ornxka> the main concern being a situation where you think you understand each other but in reality are on completely different pages, which is subtle enough to happen even between native speakers
<MichaelRaskin> Basically anything to English is risky, yes, and on that background Ukrainian→Russian doesn't add much problems, I think
<MichaelRaskin> That's true, sure
<__monty__> Reason I brought it up is the quality of the code. I had a completely new contributor not too long ago who spoke english fine but the back and forth about code changes was still too much and they lost motivation. This feels like a similar situation but with a language barrier on top.
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<aleph-> Hey if anyone want's to see some fun lightning talks: https://us02web.zoom.us/j/94371693612
<aleph-> Related to: https://adhoc.community/
<aleph-> There's a YT link going live as well soon
<drakonis> ah zoom
<aleph-> Heh eyep
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<ornxka> dpes nix-env restart the build if it fails? like, from scratch?
<ornxka> i compiled chromium but it failed on the lin kstage to not enough memory
<ornxka> oops this should go in #nixos
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<infinisil> Huh, video sponsored by the Brave browser: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RLBmWF9Xo10
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<infinisil> First time seeing this, ad segment is at 8:24
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* samueldr self-congratulates self again for including rEFInd on the nixos iso
<samueldr> I wasn't 100% sure it was going to be used by others
<samueldr> but turns out it has been
<samueldr> though, I also egoistically have used it a couple times to boot/rescue systems from a bad EFI implementation :)
<gchristensen> nice
<samueldr> for those that don't know how it can be useful, rEFInd will scan all media for valid EFI programs and show them in the selection
<samueldr> so if e.g. your zotac small form factor computer resets the NVRAM on firmware upgrades, and thus loses all boot order settings, it can be useful
<gchristensen> nice
<samueldr> as, not only does it lose the settings, it doesn't have an interface to select an alternative boot program
<samueldr> or a certain cheap atom cherrytrail based system that likes to just drop its nvram contents for no good reason
<samueldr> (all that can also be side-stepped by using instalAsRemovable in grub)
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<gchristensen> or if you have these shoddy supermicro boxes which can't remember boot order
<samueldr> probably can help there too
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<MichaelRaskin> avram — actually volatile RAM
<drakonis> does it blow up?
<samueldr> it's made of blue smoke
<samueldr> magic smoke*
<armin> maaaaaaaaaagic!
<drakonis> oohhh magic smoke, scary!
<armin> gchristensen: fwiw i've watched a talk by you some hours ago
<gchristensen> oh? :)
<armin> gchristensen: was quite entertaining, audio quality was a bit bad though :)
<gchristensen> ah, was it nixcon 2019?
<armin> gchristensen: you do weird things there like adding 2 lines to some inputrc in the beginning
<armin> (i think?)
<gchristensen> oh I don't remember that ...
<armin> gchristensen: at least i remember that you purposefully change some stuff in bashrc or inputrc
<armin> gchristensen: not able to find the link anymore, meh
<armin> gchristensen: but you had a huge beard :)
<gchristensen> sounds like me :)
<gchristensen> what was the talk about?
<armin> definitely some nix related stuff
<armin> ah yeah you changed motd
<armin> and used some ${foobar} like variables in it to show what the current nixos release is and that it is "futile" to change something
<armin> something like that
<gchristensen> cool
<gchristensen> did you like it? beyond bad the audio
<armin> well i'm hard at hearing since birth so i had some problems with the lousy speaker of the x220 where i currently test nixos stuff on, but it was the very first thing this machine ever played soundwise on nixos, so see that as an honor.
<gchristensen> ohh wow, cool! I am honored ! :D
<armin> those speakers are total crap though, i would probably have been able to raise the volume to something over 100% but i hate the general idea of doing so as it potentially leads to distortion :)
<cole-h> Can confirm, gchristensen has a sweet beard.
<armin> well i'm still in the total noob phase when it comes to nix expressions
<armin> there's some magical stuff going on there
<armin> but meh, i was able to almost fully automate the deployment of one desktop and one server machine of mine so far
<armin> the problem with abstraction is when you want to do something obscure, don't understand the abstraction, or have an approach based on false assumptions
<armin> i'm a hardcore shell scripter at heart, but some stuff in nix expressions is just o.O
<gchristensen> that is true :)
<gchristensen> well, try stuff out, ask some questions, you'll figure it out!
<armin> yea i keep asking myself how to deal with rc files for example
<armin> like let's say i set up a desktop with i3
<armin> there's NO chance at all i'd be able to live with any defaults here
<armin> i would totally need a custom ~/.i3/config, i would probably have some custom wrapper scripts around dmenu and rofi, stuff like that
<armin> how would i go well in automating that stuff? is that out of scope for nix or should i actually try going down that path?
<gchristensen> so I (did) put my i3/config at /etc/i3/config
<gchristensen> which NixOS will manage
<samueldr> I do similar stuff, and patch programs that won't look at /etc[/xdg]
<armin> ok so you were able to kind of replaced the shipped one with your own one?
<armin> another extremely trivial problem: how the hell do i completely remove the nano text editor? i keep doing things like "visudo" and get something that is not vi.
<gchristensen> this might get a bit complex but I define that i3config package here https://github.com/grahamc/nixos-config/blob/master/packages/overlay.nix#L81
<gchristensen> I don't think nano can be removed, unfortunately. but you could set EDITOR=... https://github.com/grahamc/nixos-config/blob/master/devices/petunia/configuration.nix#L111
<armin> so you say etc."i3/config".source = pkgs.i3config; which means there is an i3config package you have to have in some pkgs path, you have to import the pkg thing on top of configuration.nix, and there you define a custom thing and then i somehow lose track.
<gchristensen> you could do this instead, simpler
<gchristensen> etc."i3/config".text = '' ... your i3 config here ... '';
<armin> yeah setting EDITOR= is what i do but how do i completely ditch nano?
<armin> aha!
<armin> okehhhhh
<armin> yea so what's the issue with nano cannot be removed? :D
<armin> i mean there's a program on my computer i don't want!
<armin> fwiw i was able to almost fully automate full disk encrypted setup on my laptop
<gchristensen> nice
<armin> quite cool :D
<armin> that's what i came up with basically
<armin> hm interesting
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<armin> kevin.console-font = {
<armin> fontfile = ../../ComicSans.otf;
<armin> wtf am i even reading
<gchristensen> the good stuff
<armin> i need a beer
<joepie91> lol
<joepie91> nixpkgs.beer
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<armin> the most interesting thing was this "secrets" thing
<cole-h> ;)
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<gchristensen> ...huh
<gchristensen> nixops/script_defs.py:87: error: Too many arguments
<gchristensen> nixops/script_defs.py:87: error: Too few arguments
<drakonis> schrodinger's input?
<gchristensen> apparently
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