* gchristensen
has been waiting what feels like years to share the updated text of that message
<pie_[bnc]>
wat
<pie_[bnc]>
error: undefined variable 'CHANGELOG' at (string):1:1
<pie_[bnc]>
builtins.exec ["ls"]
<pie_[bnc]>
gchristensen: yes its amazing
<gchristensen>
can we declare builtins.exec to be off topic? :P
<pie_[bnc]>
no :P
<pie_[bnc]>
if you do ill go to main with it
<qyliss>
gchristensen can ban you :P
<gchristensen>
even worse
<samueldr>
no
<samueldr>
that's not a good look for a community
<gchristensen>
samueldr: using builtins.exec isn't a good look?
<samueldr>
also
<samueldr>
but should be available for experimentation purposes
<pie_[bnc]>
we will get into a war of escalation of me getting banned from more and more places and in return evangelizing for builtins.exec with increasing vehemence :p
<gchristensen>
lol
* gchristensen
is kidding btw
<samueldr>
with all guarantees flying off
<gchristensen>
but seriously ( o.o)
<pie_[bnc]>
cmon guys can we just get on with the shootfooting
<pie_[bnc]>
i want to call an attribute to update my jsons :P
<samueldr>
not before we get network access during eval
<samueldr>
no, not as a FOD :)
<pie_[bnc]>
really tho what the heck is up with that arror
<qyliss>
that is quite the error
<gchristensen>
imo the right way to make people learn about builtins.exec is by making them read the source
<samueldr>
yeah, that's good
<pie_[bnc]>
i wonder if its bad because im in the repl
<ottidmes>
I used it in a project and was happy it existed, but since you have to be a trusted user, I got complains about it
<pie_[bnc]>
well, its outside the sandbox so i guess it makes sense
<pie_[bnc]>
not sure how much can be done about that
<pie_[bnc]>
unless you expect normal unix access controls to be fine?
<ottidmes>
do a load of Nix calculations, at 90% find out you need the output of a command to continue, so I could either abort, execute in bash, and redo all the work, or just do it while at 90% so I can finish the last 10%
<pie_[bnc]>
wait
<pie_[bnc]>
what does parseExprFromString do
<gchristensen>
oh no
<samueldr>
parse expr from string
<samueldr>
:D
<pie_[bnc]>
i thought this was just going to give me a string lol, not import-from-exec
<gchristensen>
maybe fightclub style rules
* pie_[bnc]
puts on his straw man suit and starts yelling about shootfooting by lack of docs
<pie_[bnc]>
#nixos-but-for-people-who-use-exec
<gchristensen>
modest mouse style
<samueldr>
#!/dev/null you mean
<pie_[bnc]>
ottidmes: on that note it still bugs me to no end that tryEval is crap and useless
<samueldr>
(yes it's a valid channel name, yes someone already registered it :()
<pie_[bnc]>
samueldr: :O
abathur has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds]
<pie_[bnc]>
#!/dev/urandom because garbage in garbage out? :P
<samueldr>
what kind of garbage mobile operating system doesn't come preinstalled with git? -.-
<samueldr>
(answer: most of them)
<qyliss>
> running auto-GC to free 18446744068792778751 bytes
<pie_[bnc]>
but id rather not try escaping between the quotes
<pie_[bnc]>
hm
<pie_[bnc]>
oh
<pie_[bnc]>
now i feel dump
<pie_[bnc]>
dumb
<pie_[bnc]>
man typing is not a thing today
<pie_[bnc]>
actually. yeah bleh, needs to handle escaping because it just parses an expression, smh
<pie_[bnc]>
why isnt this just a file object you can just import if you want
<pie_[bnc]>
or does that get messy with the whole not-actually-a-file thing
<pie_[bnc]>
oh yeah it needs trusted user -_- meh
ixxie has quit [Quit: Lost terminal]
<ottidmes>
are there some well known ways to randomize some bitstring such that it can still be decoded again?
<pie_[bnc]>
otoh if exec were to run in the users shell or whatever then it would be fine to not need trustedusers no?
<pie_[bnc]>
ottidmes: "randomize"
<pie_[bnc]>
base64? :P
<pie_[bnc]>
aes?
<ottidmes>
the goal is to keep the same length and prevent similar looking values since they are sequential
<pie_[bnc]>
1) i dont know 2) why?
<pie_[bnc]>
well, aes will keep the same length modulo block size padding
<ottidmes>
1) guess I will experiment with something myself, have a naive idea with a pseudo number generator and a seed 2) make values more distinct looking if they are closeby sequentially
<pie_[bnc]>
hash functions
<pie_[bnc]>
?
<ottidmes>
they dont have decode by design
<pie_[bnc]>
oh right
<pie_[bnc]>
i dont know what the distinguishability property is called in the literature
<ottidmes>
neither do I :P have a hard time googling it, it might very well be a stupid question
<pie_[bnc]>
could try ##crypto
<ottidmes>
good idea, will try that tomorrow, time for bed now, thanks for thinking along, good night/day/whatever :P
<pie_[bnc]>
so not only is exec exec, it is also basically eval?
<ottidmes>
yep
<pie_[bnc]>
i guess not that it matters too much given that its already exec
<pie_[bnc]>
but cmon
<ottidmes>
other than import from derivation those are the two only eval, I think
<drakonis>
i didn't know indonesia had 130 active volcanoes
<drakonis>
this isnt even the only one?
<drakonis>
merapi also erupted
<drakonis>
same day
<drakonis>
is this the end of the world?
<gchristensen>
how many signs of the end times are we up to
<cole-h>
Like 10
<drakonis>
we got a life ending plague and environmental disasters
<drakonis>
10?
<drakonis>
oh shit
<MichaelRaskin>
Well, life ending plague implies a more SARS-1-like profile.
<drakonis>
there's going to be tsunamis
<drakonis>
krakatoa doesnt fuck around
<MichaelRaskin>
Ouch
<drakonis>
the last time it erupted it caused least 36417 deaths
<drakonis>
well, its the sequel to SARS-1 isnt it?
<drakonis>
SARS-1 SARS harder
<drakonis>
from what i've heard so far, its going to be statistically worse than SARS-1
<MichaelRaskin>
Sequel, except they fired all the writers and did a continuity reboot
<MichaelRaskin>
Because of its deadliness and (naturally linked) rapid onset of symptoms SARS-1 was way easier to contain, but a failure would also be horribly worse than the already bad things happenning with SARS-2
<drakonis>
black death when?
<MichaelRaskin>
Bacterial stuff has different profile
<MichaelRaskin>
Also, different treatment strategies…
<drakonis>
right.
<drakonis>
i'm not happy to see what'll happen to brazil though
<drakonis>
the population has been irresponsible as hell
<MichaelRaskin>
You know something is wrong when it is the mob trying to enact the WHO recommendations…
<drakonis>
yes
<julm>
huh
<drakonis>
the president lol
<drakonis>
oh man.
<drakonis>
that aint even the mob
<drakonis>
its just the drug dealers trying to keep everyone alive
<MichaelRaskin>
On the other hand, Brazil is not as old of a country as Italy.
<{^_^}>
error: syntax error, unexpected $undefined, at (string):296:1
<eyJhb>
Thought you had ZNC
<ottidmes>
eyJhb: not yet, still on my TODO somewhere, thanks for the link!
<__monty__>
If this is for file exchange with technologically challenged people I've had good luck with croc.
<__monty__>
Uses the same principle as magic-wormhole but with a simpler UI and binaries available.
<ottidmes>
__monty__: its for generating unique IDs to be used with the Zettelkasten method among others (just general knowledge base IDs). I have to think carefully about them, cause I need to stick to them when I make the choice of years to come (ideally) and they maybe throughout different apps where editing might not be easy after the fact (some might be offline, so cannot just fix it easily
<ottidmes>
afterwards)
<__monty__>
Ah, cool.
<__monty__>
Wouldn't you want dates in them?
<__monty__>
At least year, maybe month?
<eyJhb>
ottidmes quite easy with Nix!
<__monty__>
ottidmes: And are you gonna use neuron? Someone else is looking at org-roam.
<ottidmes>
Well, it has pros and cons, pro being it gives you some info and it can be written manually, con being it might give you false info, the time might not be representative at all (e.g. when importing notes with no time info available)
<ldlework>
__monty__: croc looks cool thanks
<ldlework>
ottidmes: whatt're you working on?
<ottidmes>
__monty__: no, I am going to use my own thing, I already had a custom language in place, and was about to use shortend UUIDs, but after reading about Zettelkasten I realized the problem with those IDs
<__monty__>
Yeah, I think magic-wormhole has more features like not needing a relay server but if the other user can't get it installed without much trouble that's irrelevant.
<ldlework>
Oh I didn't realize Croc needed a server
<__monty__>
ldlework: That's how magic-wormhole usually works too.
<ottidmes>
ldlework: personal knowledge base, the tools available don't quite fit what I have in mind, so am making my own (also as a dev I want full control to change things easily)
<__monty__>
You can't do proper NAT traversal without one anyway pretty much : /
<ldlework>
ottidmes: I am building a knowledge base system too
<ldlework>
__monty__: huh I've used wormhole with people numerous times and never even thought about it
<ottidmes>
__monty__: you did for me, really nice to see a whole community surrounding it discussing the topic!
<ldlework>
ottidmes: I'm building a fork of org-brain
<ottidmes>
ldlework: you are doing an emacs based on, I assume?
<ldlework>
Yeah.
<ottidmes>
I don't like the approach, let me gist some documentation of my reasoning
<ldlework>
ottidmes: this is a document explaining why you don't like org-mode?
<ldlework>
it seems to be a spec for a markup language
<ottidmes>
ldlework: no, its explaining my language used in my personal knowledge base
<ottidmes>
ldlework: "The kind of design that Markdown follows is one that is almost always never complete. There will likely be new rich text needs that require new custom markers to be added to the language in order to support them, as showcased by the many Markdown extentions that exist."
<ldlework>
ottidmes: you said "I don't like the approach"
<ldlework>
org-mode doesn't have that limitation
<ldlework>
In any case I agree markup is insufficient for a forever-base.
<ldlework>
markdown*
<ottidmes>
ldlework: how so? isn't org-mode exactly like that
<ldlework>
ottidmes: you can store whatever metadata you want inside of org-mode
<ottidmes>
its stored as ascii, like you see it
<ldlework>
is your markup not stored as text?
<ottidmes>
ldlework: it is, but instead of specific custom markers for the current set of features, it uses a generic set of markers for every possible thing, right now, and in the future
<ldlework>
ottidmes: yes, that's what org's property system allows
<ottidmes>
ldlework: but thats and addon, its not like everything uses that property system
<ldlework>
ottidmes: the org-property system is not an addon...
<ldlework>
And yes, everything uses that property system...
<ldlework>
it is the mechanism to assigning arbitrary metadata to elements in an org-mode document
<ottidmes>
care to show me an example?
<ldlework>
ottidmes: you can literally add any properties above any element in org, think of something you want to associate with an element
<ldlework>
and add a property above it to associate it
<ldlework>
not sure what example is required
<ottidmes>
sure, but its not like those elements themselves are defined in terms of that metadata, it still defines a set of primitives like list items, right?
<ldlework>
it's just lisp forms
<ldlework>
property-name -> arbitrary lisp form or text form
<ldlework>
Maybe you're doing something org-mode can't do, but associating arbitrary data with elements in the document is not a limitation of org-mode.
<ottidmes>
that was not what I was claiming though
<ldlework>
well it should be clear i don't really know what you're claiming
<ldlework>
:)
<ottidmes>
I will look into it, cause I am not familiar enough with org-mode to know if what you meant is the same, but its unlikely to be the case
<ldlework>
tell me something concrete you don't think org-mode can't do
<ldlework>
like an actual thing you will do as a user with your system
<ottidmes>
problem is, I don't use emacs let alone org-mode to know that for sure XD, can org-mode let the user add arbitrary widgets themselves?
<ottidmes>
Can you create semantical data definitions that you can query?
<ldlework>
ottidmes: explain how you will create a new visual widget from entering in a new word into your markup document
<ldlework>
without writing any code
<ldlework>
Yes you can create new semantical data definitions that you can query
<ldlework>
that's the point of the property system
<ottidmes>
I can't, cause I never claimed it could
<ldlework>
"can org-mode let the user add arbitrary widgets themselves" is how I interpreted that
<ldlework>
dunno what it means beyond "new visual elements that didn't exist before"
<ottidmes>
big jump to saying it doesnt require any code though
<ldlework>
well beyond "just editing the document itself"
<ldlework>
anything is possible at that point
<ldlework>
as you're extending the format...
<ottidmes>
thats the point, the format is such that it allows extension without having to add to the format itself
<ldlework>
yes I can extend org-mode with new visual widgets if i sit down and implement them
<ldlework>
that sounds like an intrinsic contradiction
<ldlework>
just because you're able to type arbitrary tags in html
<ottidmes>
no, I have a very flexible set of primitives that everything else can be defined as
<ldlework>
doesn't mean they'll do anything useful when you render the document
<ottidmes>
sure
<ldlework>
is that what you mean?
<ottidmes>
yeah
<ldlework>
...
<ottidmes>
I don't want to mix the two, but I don't want to write HTML either
<ldlework>
then you can add any property to any element you want
<ldlework>
interpret those elements marked up with proeprties however you want
<ldlework>
when you render the document
<ottidmes>
yep
<ldlework>
i'm talking about org-mode
<ottidmes>
also applies to my approach
<ldlework>
right the contention here is whether other markups are insufficient
<ldlework>
Just trying to get back to "I don't like the approach"
<ottidmes>
ldlework: all I said I don't like the big set of primitives, even though they might be extended arbitrary
<ldlework>
What is the big set of primitives though. Headlines, content blocks, links, properties, tags, babel blocks. Those are the primary org-mode primitives I can think of.
<ottidmes>
tables arent among them? just to name another?
<ldlework>
Yes, tables. Any others?
<ottidmes>
who knows, I aint a user
<ldlework>
Well if there a panoply..
<ottidmes>
anyway, I am going back to my thinking of the right ID format
<ldlework>
ottidmes: didn't mean to bust your balls, just trying to understand what might be deficient in what i'm doing
<__monty__>
What I don't like about org-mode is just how tied to emacs it is. It's like with haskell there's a spec but GHC is really the defacto spec. So to have any chance of becoming relevant you'd basically have to carbon copy GHC, faults and all.
<ottidmes>
ldlework: ^ that is one, another one is that I went to the absolute minimal I could think of while still retaining the properties I liked to see in the language, so org-mode still looks bloated to me and I am unsure where there are to me arbitrary limitations
<__monty__>
Being tied to emacs is an advantage for anyone already bought into emacs of course.
<ldlework>
I just want to solve my need of a functional and productive forever-base
<ldlework>
If there was an existing application like Leo Editor
<ldlework>
That I didn't use for literally anything else, but Actually solved this problem
<ldlework>
I would just use Leo Editor
<__monty__>
The other bit is that org-mode without rendering is so inscrutable. Not that XML doesn't have that problem.
* ldlework
shrugs.
<ldlework>
I don't find it inscruitable.
<__monty__>
Yeah, emacs is definitely a good foundation for such a thing. Gonna be around a lot longer than a custom solution unless that goes viral.
<ottidmes>
ldlework: I really want features I could not implement within emacs, but in a browser instead (during editing, not output), is another one for me not using org-mode
CRTified has joined #nixos-chat
<__monty__>
Sounds like mdX.
<__monty__>
I like the simplicity and pragmatics of PML.
<ldlework>
I find org-mode much more readable than that.
<ldlework>
I have used org-mode for over ten years. At almost every employer, I submit my standups copy pasted straight out of org-mode into whatever chat we're using.
<ottidmes>
__monty__: my language is somewhat similar, but I don't like 2 things from my first impression, the dangling } and I like how in my language attributes don't exist as seperate entities, they too are tags
<ldlework>
They're always the most readable and well-formated
<ldlework>
I can imaging pasting some PML into the chat :)
<ottidmes>
ldlework: neither could you do that for raw org-mode, you are talking about the ASCII rendering of it in your editor, which PML could in theory also create, no?
<ldlework>
no
<ldlework>
i'm talking about the plain text
<ldlework>
a headline in orgmode is just ****'s
<ldlework>
a list is just - some text
<ldlework>
checkboxes [x]
<ottidmes>
well if you give me a property annotated one, its not nice looking
<ldlework>
etc
<ldlework>
I can delete all the properties easily since they appear in one block
<ottidmes>
which is what you are comparing looking at the example at the home page of PML
<ldlework>
you have to extract your actual data out of the PML syntax
<ldlework>
i don't
<ottidmes>
as could PML when rendered as such
<ldlework>
no need here
<ldlework>
"organize your life in plain-text"
<ottidmes>
no need in PML either if it had a helping editor
<ldlework>
now you're hooked on that editor
<ottidmes>
like you are
CRTified has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
<ldlework>
it's a thing you complained aobut
<ldlework>
unreal
<ottidmes>
no, I was disagreeing with you claim that org-mode was superior in this respect, thats all
<ldlework>
it is in this respect
<ottidmes>
which is what you asked for BTW
<__monty__>
ottidmes: The reason I don't like any markdown-like, be it reST or asciidoc or anything anyone could come up with is there's too many shortcomings. The nixpkgs documentation rfc has made that clear to me.
<ldlework>
i can link to the source of my org-mode data
<ldlework>
no one has to have a viewer to look at it
<ldlework>
blocks of property don't obscure the data
<ldlework>
liek embedding the data into a syntax does
<__monty__>
ldlework: Could you do me a favor and make a paste of a translation of the PML example to org-mode?
<ottidmes>
__monty__: I agree, that is what I meant with: "The kind of design that Markdown follows is one that is almost always never complete. There will likely be new rich text needs that require new custom markers to be added to the language in order to support them, as showcased by the many Markdown extentions that exist."
<__monty__>
Yeah, but I don't see how you can get that without something S-exp-y, like PML.
<ottidmes>
And anything more complex than a bunch of list items / headings / and those few other org-mode ASCII style formated primitives, will have the exact same problem as PML
<ottidmes>
__monty__: I agree, but you can style the S-exp-y like PML to be more convenient
<__monty__>
But you mentioned not having closing }'s.
<ldlework>
What's interesting to me, is that the markup is not at all the central problem to knowledge-basing as far as I'm concerned.
<ldlework>
I have been usefully storing information in Org-mode for over a decade. And the ability to aggregate information across documents is already quite powerful.
<ottidmes>
__monty__: I still do, but workaround the dangling } by also including line (until end of line) and indentation-style blocks
<ldlework>
But the UX of aggregation does not precisely reflect how I think and want to access my information.
<__monty__>
It's not the central problem to writing documentation either. But people care, the discussion on the documentation RFC makes at least that much clear : )
<ldlework>
Its the relational aggregation machinery that I aim to improve.
<ldlework>
I can already store the information I need with the markup sufficiently. Now I want to generate differentiated views into that data with least-expressive-effort being the primary design factor.
<__monty__>
ottidmes: How do you avoid the problem markdown has with nesting though? Rules tend to get confusion.
<ottidmes>
ldlework: I plan to do that with those Zettel IDs for permalinks and my PML like syntax allows mapping it to databases like XML databases and graph databases making querying very nice
<ldlework>
When I'm having a conversation about epistemology, I want to be able to with the flick of a wrist be able to recall what I know about the subject.
<__monty__>
ldlework: Thanks for the example.
<ldlework>
The aggregation is already in org-mode, see agenda-mode. I can say it's famous because no other system has aggregation so powerful but you wont believe me I guess.
<ldlework>
It's the UX that needs trivializing.
<ottidmes>
__monty__: I have worked out those rules with great detail, considered all edge cases and made a property based tester and unit tests that make sure it confirms to it (especially the property based tester is insanely good at finding such edge cases)
<ottidmes>
__monty__: also a nice learning experience in how despite a language being really simple, it can still have plenty of edge cases to consider and every syntactical choice has big implications
<ottidmes>
ldlework: I don't think I can just blindly agree with "no other system has aggregation so powerful" but I know org-mode can indeed be powerful and flexible. If I just had to name one reason to not want to use it, its Emacs. And what I aim to build, I could not with org-mode
<ldlework>
Well, I'm definitely interested in finding an even more powerful system, so if you know of one, let me know.
<ldlework>
"Emacs" doesn't seem to content behind "I don't like the approach" I need to worry about.
<ldlework>
Thanks for answering my questions.
<ottidmes>
I will let you know if I found or managed to make something that can compete with org-mode
<ottidmes>
ldlework: How does org-mode handle linking to files, just filenames?
<clever>
pie_[bnc]: write it to a file with a derivation, then import
<clever>
pie_[bnc]: you may also want to look into passAsFile
<ottidmes>
but why? why not just produce a script and do: $(nix-build '<nixpkgs>' -A imperative.updateAll)
<pie_[bnc]>
huh?
<pie_[bnc]>
ill gotta run some errands so bbiab
<__monty__>
ldlework: Did you take a look at org-roam? Since you're working on something similar. (Maybe discuss it in #ranger, zaeph's taking that approach.)
<ldlework>
org-roam is mostly a backlink listing
<ldlework>
It's a nice utility package but it is not a sufficient solution for forever-basing
<ottidmes>
ldlework: my turn :P what to you is needed for forever-basing?
<ottidmes>
__monty__: thanks!
<ldlework>
ottidmes: well I don't have anything pre-written up, but there are a number of facets which beyond mere implementation, require specific trivialized UX. Some aspects of forever-basing are Capture, Refile, Annotation, Denotation, Hierarchical Association, Direct Association, Local Traversal, Graph Traversal, Reporting
<__monty__>
ldlework: I'm not sure what backlinks are. Like an index?
<ldlework>
__monty__: "what documents link here?"
<ldlework>
"what are all the documents I link to?"
<ldlework>
ottidmes: the trivialization of UX is important because it doesn't matter what the system can do, if it can't do it at the tip of my fingers, it may as well not exist
<ldlework>
Oh, Export
<ottidmes>
ldlework: that is true, if you don't know how to access/use a feature, it might just as well not exist, or if its too painful to use in practice, especially for this use case where it should act like your external brain, so it should not hinder your thinking too much
<ldlework>
exactly
<ldlework>
forever-basing isn't just what you know, but also scheduling, tasking, journaling, etc
<ldlework>
the barrier has got to be near-zero
<ottidmes>
ldlework: some of which is just a matter of finding the right GUI/keybindings/whatever, but of this topic, the thing I find hardest is how to best implement connectivity, and how to deal with integrating external systems (although its nice to have everything in the same system, its probably more future proof if it is not pinned to just the one system)
<ldlework>
i put my money on emacs being around and actively maintained in 10 years over anything any of us will hand-roll
vika_nezrimaya is now known as kisik21
kisik21 is now known as vika_nezrimaya
<eyJhb>
When would it ever makes sense to stablesort the filenames of a directory?
<ldlework>
and it's easy to understate the UX of this stuff as "the right keybindings" but in my experience it is more involved
<eyJhb>
Like, you can't really have files with the same name?
<ottidmes>
ldlework: true, but I consider it less fundamental, i.e. easier to fix after the fact
<ldlework>
ottidmes: i'm coming from a place of satisfaction with the underlying system, but dissatisfaction with it's UX
<ldlework>
(well major satisfcation, but not complete
<ldlework>
I am rewriting org-brain after all XD
<ottidmes>
ldlework: lol, true, but how do you deal with connecting the external world? like I also like to have a web archiver for things I link and being allowed to mark texts within it, same for PDFs (download them and annotate), ideally somehow connected with the system as a whole, to make them part of it and linkable
<ldlework>
ottidmes: org-protocol
<ldlework>
it's already a thing. people have been at this for a while.
<ldlework>
ottidmes: my goal is to rewrite org-brain to be SQL based so it is way faster, improve it's UX (it doesn't scale well), and integrate things like org-noter and org-roam as features
<ldlework>
Then build some very fast keyboard UX ontop for reporting and traversal
<ldlework>
re-use org-capture and org-refile and make them fit into that UX naturally, instead of being relevant but out-of-system features
<ottidmes>
ldlework: cool, noting these down for inspiration :)
<ldlework>
ottidmes: You probably haven't but have you ever seen my la karda?
<ottidmes>
ldlework: noting in what, ahh, chicken and egg problem :P (nah, just using markdown files in a directory for now)
<ottidmes>
ldlework: nope, or is it that ORM?
<ldlework>
No, it is an introduction to Lojban, distilled from my experience trying to convey it's core novelty to people on IRC over the years.
<ldlework>
It's a hyper-distilled style of writing
<ldlework>
Good for only two things
<ldlework>
Introducing people conceptually to a topic, who have relevant/peripheral knowledge
<ldlework>
Or reminding people of what they already know
<ldlework>
I recommend taking just 10 minutes and reading through this
<ldlework>
And think introspecting how much of a new language you have just learned
<ldlework>
Compared to if you were to crack open a textbook on French, or Mandarin
<ldlework>
The point is not the lojban, but the efficiency of concept uptake
<gchristensen>
speaking of which, I need to practice Go today eyes.jpg
<ldlework>
My goal is to have a graph-based document knowledge-base where information is serialized into a distillation in the style of la karda, and the ability to quickly relate such documents across a graph and direct relations, and then be able to quickly navigate to the document relevant to what I want to know about (and other such documents)
<ldlework>
Via a few search and report mechanisms
<ldlework>
gchristensen: I'm available to go over life and death today. At your leisure :)
<gchristensen>
cool :)
<ottidmes>
ldlework: I think I have seen it before, but it was less nice as it is now, nice site
<ldlework>
thanks :)
<gchristensen>
I need to do a few household chore things and then try and write something beforehand
<ldlework>
ottidmes: there is a company called Blinkist who try to do what I'm doing with la karda, but for whole books
<ldlework>
ottidmes: they don't come nearly as distilled as I reach for, but I appreciate their efforts
<ldlework>
I wrote a script that exported all of their ~3000 distillations into org-mode, preserving all of their relational information to each other, both the graph relations and the direct ones
<ldlework>
it....
<ldlework>
it doesn't fit inside of org-brain's UX
<ldlework>
XD
<ldlework>
like org-brain will show you the nearby graph at the top of the document you're viewing
<ldlework>
so you can quickly do intra-document traversal along the relations
<ldlework>
but with the blinkist dataset, that block is so huge it takes up a few screens lol
<ldlework>
defeating the "header" UX metaphor
<ottidmes>
ldlework: my goal is to have a personal knowledge base that uses a mixture of text and data where it is easy to search through the text and data structures within it and allowing for a rich editing experience with complex widgets while still producing a lightweight markup language that is convenient enough for a human to read and write
<ldlework>
Yeah, that sounds like Org-mode :)
<ldlework>
You obviously cannot embed all things, like you could with a browser.
<ldlework>
But for structured data you could theoretically write a mode for, you're covered.
<ldlework>
And with Emacs GUI, anything is technically possible, but probably not worth it.
<ldlework>
It also sounds like you're back to markdown's "implement support for each thing" which tbh, beyond the actual markup format, when it comes to the tooling, is just intrinsically true for everyone.
<ldlework>
Unless there was some standard in browsers for editing arbitrary kinds of data that you got for free, etc. But that doesn't exist.
<ldlework>
neeasade: yeah
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<ottidmes>
true, org-mode is the closest thing right now, but its like the framework issue, its 80% of what I want, but the last 20% require much more work to workaround or are simply impossible
<ldlework>
ottidmes: I'm just not sure you have good reason to believe that.
<ldlework>
It's arbitrarilly extensible.
<neeasade>
ottidmes: can you elaborate? things that are out of plain text world or things that are out of org? you can get pretty far with elisp and some nice packages like om.el
<ldlework>
If I'm just being frank, it seems more like an allergy to emacs, than some actual limitation to what you want to do.
<ldlework>
Which you'll just have to implement in your own tooling anyway.
<ottidmes>
ldlework: I am not fan of Emacs indeed, but you seem rather zealous about it. And yes, you will have to build your own tooling, which is why I am not jumping straight on the Emacs train, I am much more comfortable in a webbased environment than having to learn the internals of Emacs and the libraries to make it all work
<ldlework>
ottidmes: I am a fan of Emacs in the same way I am a fan of browsers
* ldlework
shrugs
<ldlework>
They're incredibly high-value time-tested application platforms. There's no negative they have which makes this untrue.
<ldlework>
I think of Emacs as an application platform. A program who's display can be split into arbitrary windows, each displaying a buffer, each buffer has a mode mapping inputs to arbitrary functions, which sometimes update that buffer, sometimes do other things.
<ottidmes>
That bit no, but so is C and C++, yet I rather not write in them
<ldlework>
You can build anything ontop of that.
<ldlework>
Those are not application platforms.
<ottidmes>
no, but the time tested argument applies
<ldlework>
Right but in this case we care about time-tested application platforms.
<ldlework>
Rather than application platforms that have no evidence of their long term value.
<ldlework>
not time tested anything at all
<ldlework>
All I mean is that I know if I use it, I wont be fundamentally undermined by the platform itself. It'll provide what I need to build what I want. It's just on me to make it.
<ottidmes>
don't seem to get your argument, same would apply to my approach when I leverage the web, compared to you using emacs, you will have mode and other elisp libs that you would depend on, which are just as suspectiable to change as my webbased libs and formats
<ldlework>
ottidmes: I was agreeing with you went I said "The good I see in emacs is the same I see in browsers"
<neeasade>
I think an advantage of both as application platforms is that the UI primitives you get as options rise from just plain text
<ldlework>
Like, using the browser as an application platform gets no argument from me, because that's what I see it for.
<ldlework>
No real insight there, I was just trying to relate.
<ottidmes>
ldlework: ah, like so
<ldlework>
The happenstance that org-mode happens to be implemented ontop of Emacs rather than the browser is just an anachronism
<ldlework>
My zealous admiration of org-mode is actually disjoint from my appreciation of Emacs as an application
<ldlework>
In the same way that Magit being the best git porcelin and also being an emacs application, is just coincidence
<ldlework>
There is plenty of garbage people have written for emacs
<ldlework>
Myself included ^_^
<ottidmes>
fair enough
<ottidmes>
neeasade: true, its better suited for text editing, since its targeted at that, I try to workaround that by making it trivial to serialize to the text format from the webbased editors I would build on top of my format, so that I don't have to think about it
<ldlework>
One of my biggest gripes about Emacs
<ldlework>
Is that there is no library for doing the kinds of things you can do with urwid or termkit
<ldlework>
And I honestly just don't understand how that is the universe actually live in, and not some hypothetical one
<ldlework>
It's such a stupid fact about our world..
<ottidmes>
ldlework: which is what I actually expected Emacs to give me at least
<ldlework>
it seems like such an absurdity
<ldlework>
i have written things like that, and i know how absolutely finicky that kind of code is
<ldlework>
so in my not wanting to write it i kind of understand
<ldlework>
lol
<ldlework>
but it's been so long and emacs with so many users, wtf
<ldlework>
there's widget.el
<ldlework>
but it's just a horizontal listing of such widgets
<ldlework>
okay.....
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<ottidmes>
wait, is it that easy to create a IRC channel, just join a non-existant one :S
<ldlework>
yeah
<ldlework>
then register it with chanserv
<neeasade>
> ldlework: but it's been so long and emacs with so many users, wtf
<{^_^}>
error: syntax error, unexpected WITH, expecting ')', at (string):296:43
<ottidmes>
ah, nice to know, just made a typo
<neeasade>
I think there is a small amount of emacs users compared to say, vim users
<neeasade>
and only a small percentage of those users will make new things
<ldlework>
it's still an overall large number since its inception
<ldlework>
and there is much emacs packages written
<ottidmes>
neeasade: are you still on bspwm?
<neeasade>
and of the ones making new things I think they are mostly focused on using/building on the existing base rather than a pivot
<neeasade>
ottidmes: yeet
<ldlework>
just no actual-widgets.el
<ldlework>
neeasade: pivot?
<ottidmes>
neeasade: I moved away after too much annoyance with multi monitors and after writing yet another script for workarounds
<ldlework>
i didn't understand that part
<neeasade>
ldlework: rather than build things with new interface primitives it's 'safer' to use what's already there
<ldlework>
neeasade: there are no interface primitives lol
<neeasade>
buffers, windows, the point, overlays ?
<ldlework>
how are those substitutes for layed out widgets?
<neeasade>
the tui kit that magit is made with
<ldlework>
those are more fundamental
<ldlework>
neeasade: that refutes your own point though
<ldlework>
if you call what magit does a "tui kit" then someone has built something non-default
<neeasade>
ldlework: right -- higher level things will have to be fundamental before we'll see what you are describing I think
<ldlework>
neeasade: literally anyone could write termkit right now
<ldlework>
no issue
<ldlework>
termkit.el
<ldlework>
as a package
<ldlework>
it's just finicky and substantial work
<neeasade>
I don't see what termkit offers that I don't get with shell mode really
<ldlework>
layout code is so annoying
<ldlework>
....?
<ldlework>
as in practically
<ldlework>
or you literally do not see what they do different?
<ldlework>
one is a widget layout mechanism...
<ldlework>
shell mode isn't that lol
<neeasade>
oh I see that section now
<neeasade>
I only saw the image display
<ldlework>
hehe
<neeasade>
termkit to me looks similar to powershell + a new gui
<ldlework>
neeasade: oh
<ldlework>
i think i misnomered
<neeasade>
in that the output from programs is not plain text
<neeasade>
> The output is built out of generic widgets (lists, tables, images, files, progress bars, etc.).
<{^_^}>
error: syntax error, unexpected ',', expecting ')', at (string):296:50
<ottidmes>
hope they get cheap at some point, would love to put them everywhere and make them network connected
<MichaelRaskin>
At that cost they don't even say anything about tested refresh rate?
<pie_[bnc]>
clever: I dont follow, what should I be passAsFile-ing?
<pie_[bnc]>
clever: OHH
<pie_[bnc]>
rubber duck every time
<clever>
pie_[bnc]: instead of that complex mess of escaping strings, you can use passAsFile
<pie_[bnc]>
right
<clever>
pie_[bnc]: but if you just want to eval a chunk of nix, use writeTextFile and import
<pie_[bnc]>
i dont want the eval
<pie_[bnc]>
i want the IO result
<clever>
ah, run the thing and get its stdout?
<clever>
i would do `$cmd > /tmp/foo ; echo /tmp/foo` so builtins.exec returns a path
<clever>
or perhaps nix-store --add-fixed
<pie_[bnc]>
yeah thats much better thanks
<pie_[bnc]>
it was pretty late
<pie_[bnc]>
now that I think about it, for this specific case I dont even really need the result, but good to remember
<pie_[bnc]>
ottidmes: ^
<pie_[bnc]>
clever: how does babby shell redirecton?? I'm running this but I still get output from nix-prefetch-*** in the nix output `$( ${cmd} ) 2>&1 > "$tmp"`
<MichaelRaskin>
This is a schism more than an inner circle!
<MichaelRaskin>
--set is the part for profile management
<MichaelRaskin>
So you can have something like nix-build, but generationally managed like profiles/NixOS generations/etc.
<drakonis>
layered inner circles?
<MichaelRaskin>
We should study related work, of course. Freemasons, I guess?
<__monty__>
Also Onion Routing.
<MichaelRaskin>
Onion routing of commands: intercalling scripts such that you have no idea which one does all the work
<drakonis>
reflections on nixos userbase
<MichaelRaskin>
Not so much the userbase as the community expectations of the users.
<drakonis>
hmm, that'd be a interesting post
<srk>
pie_[bnc]: time to switch to ebpf :)
<drakonis>
i want to measure how deep i'm in nix right now
<pie_[bnc]>
MichaelRaskin: whats nix-env --set?
<pie_[bnc]>
is that the one we use for systme configs?
<pie_[bnc]>
oh i just need to catch up in scroll
<drakonis>
i'm fairly sure i'm not deep enough to use nix-env --set
<pie_[bnc]>
you get there when you start trying to hack your own profile management
<pie_[bnc]>
i just wish i was less clumsy
<pie_[bnc]>
well, more like it does the profile management still, you just gotta pass it the path
<pie_[bnc]>
this is already Nix though <MichaelRaskin> Onion routing of commands: intercalling scripts such that you have no idea which one does all the work
<MichaelRaskin>
Well, you don't need to hack your own, you can just nix-build buildEnv invocations
<pie_[bnc]>
right that
<pie_[bnc]>
i havent fought with getting tha tpart of my config working in a while...
* pie_[bnc]
does some stuff with git subtrees
<pie_[bnc]>
srk: switch to ebpf?
<MichaelRaskin>
Nah, very vulnerable! A lot of people manage to get a good understanding of what calls what
<srk>
pie_[bnc]: yeah, or I should say bcc which uses eBPF for tracing
<__monty__>
Why this fascination with eBPF? Is it not something niche for networking?
<srk>
pie_[bnc]: bcc has some handy tools like opensnoop, execsnoop that operate systemwide
<pie_[bnc]>
srk: i kind of figured there would be something about system visibility, so youre saying i wont jsut be staring cluelessly at reads?
<pie_[bnc]>
__monty__: you have no idea... xD
<pie_[bnc]>
i dont either but it can do at least several things now
<srk>
pie_[bnc]: well it's not *that* easy to use as strace but could help with such stuff, not an expert tho :)
<MichaelRaskin>
This is a niche thing for writing complicated filtering rules that just accidentally happenned to allow filtering and adjusting all syscalls
<srk>
pie_[bnc]: also bpftrace
<pie_[bnc]>
sigh, i still cant get my exec stuff to work right v
<gchristensen>
okay on Monday I'll post the other one to Lobsters first :)
<etu>
gchristensen: voted on hn :)
<gchristensen>
thanks, etu!
<drakonis>
i see you've split the posts
<drakonis>
or wrote a new one
<gchristensen>
wrote a new one :)
<drakonis>
hmm, i have a terrible question, does nix have the ability to compose a build with multiple builders?
<MichaelRaskin>
It won't count as a single build
<drakonis>
hmm, i see.
<MichaelRaskin>
I mean, you also can carefully punch holes in the sandboxing, but are you sure you want to?
<drakonis>
hmm, no not really
<gchristensen>
drakonis: a nice thing about lobsters is you don't have approximately 10 seconds to capture enough interest
<cole-h>
gchristensen++ Nice article. Saved for the future :)
<{^_^}>
gchristensen's karma got increased to 262
<gchristensen>
thanks!
<drakonis>
its nice.
<drakonis>
what i want is to chain steps for polyglot software
<MichaelRaskin>
If you can just split the build into reasonably sized pieces, Nix will auto-distributed the derivations that do not depend on each other to multiple remote builders
<drakonis>
software that for some reason want to use C++, Python and Lua
<drakonis>
games seem to really like doing that
<aleph->
So Conway died
<aleph->
RIP
<drakonis>
oh :(
<ldlework>
what an absolute legend
<joepie91>
gchristensen: there's an easy way to get to the top of hackernews
<joepie91>
just write something that pisses people off but also is considered truthful by others
<joepie91>
top spot nearly guaranteed :P
<gchristensen>
lol
<gchristensen>
I thought I did! my very first sentence calls FHS outdated and historical!
<joepie91>
(I'm not kidding, either; this is legitimately what I do for hype-busting articles)
<samueldr>
gchristensen: it needs to be in the title!
<samueldr>
13 reasons why FHS is busted, and doctors hate him
<gchristensen>
okay I'll rename to "FHS is bad"
<joepie91>
gchristensen: it's not incendiary enough
<samueldr>
FHS should be fired straight in the sun
<drakonis>
FHS brings all the unix fanboys to town
<joepie91>
gchristensen: include a bulletpoint list of frustratingly truthful issues with FHS :P
<gchristensen>
:)
<joepie91>
seems there's very little that pisses people off like a bulletpoint list, for some reason
<gchristensen>
I'll workshop the title of the next onewith you
<cole-h>
Haha
<joepie91>
haha
<joepie91>
gchristensen: more seriously, probably don't do any of this if you want people to actually read and learn a new thing :P
<drakonis>
i have a better question, how does nixpkgs handle software that wants npm, electron and a bunch of other languages?
<gchristensen>
no no
<drakonis>
big monorepos that vendor those languages too
<gchristensen>
joepie91: "you're bad at your job if you don't use nix"
<joepie91>
gchristensen: like, these techniques are legitimately effective at making people go "LOOK WHAT THIS IDIOT WROTE" to their friends (which is a quite effective mechanism for spreading awareness of a non-obvious view on things), but it also has a tendency of making people angrily stampede into the comments after reading two paragraphs and ignoring the rest :D
<gchristensen>
good thing I don't have comments on my blog
<drakonis>
this is a hellworld
<joepie91>
gchristensen: oh, I didn't mean the *blog* comments... I meant the *HN* comments :)
<gchristensen>
:)
<samueldr>
oh no, this OEM kernel has debug prints interpersed in braces-less ifs
<samueldr>
if you build in a way that those are enabled, they make the following statement fall off the if
<joepie91>
braceless ifs are a crime against humanity
<samueldr>
yes
<samueldr>
OEM kernels are the worst
<drakonis>
its the one thing i'm trying to figure out how to make it work
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<MichaelRaskin>
joepie91: so you should make two-stage delivery, right? Viral flamebait that obviously wrongly debunks what you actually want to say
<qyliss>
that's genius
<qyliss>
MichaelRaskin++
<{^_^}>
MichaelRaskin's karma got increased to 24
<ashkitten>
syncplay is such good software, i used it yesterday to watch a movie with a friend and it was a great experience
<tilpner>
gchristensen: Can you confirm noop still works? cat /sys/block/sd*/queue/scheduler
<tilpner>
gchristensen: It seems to be called none now
<MichaelRaskin>
qyliss: that's classics!
<eyJhb>
Unsure if my irc client even works..
<ashkitten>
eyJhb: what doesn't work?
<gchristensen>
ah thanks tilpner
<tilpner>
gchristensen: So mq-deadline?
<eyJhb>
Seems to work now, I tried to ask a question earlier but didn't get through
<eyJhb>
> Is there any case where it makes sense to stable sort the content of a dir, versus just normal sort? Seeing as there cannot be files/dirs with the same name in a dir anyways..
<{^_^}>
error: syntax error, unexpected ',', expecting ')', at (string):296:75
<gchristensen>
none?
<tilpner>
gchristensen: No, what were your drives using, if assignment of noop failed?
<gchristensen>
none
<gchristensen>
nvme always uses none I think
<tilpner>
Hmm
<tilpner>
My nvme disk does, but my other drives do not
<gchristensen>
my sd* disk uses mq-deadline yeah, but I never bothered trying to set it to noop
<gchristensen>
oops :)
<tilpner>
But your elevator=noop param was meant to be global
<gchristensen>
yeah
<gchristensen>
(I never actually set that parameter)
<__monty__>
eyJhb: It did get through.
<__monty__>
eyJhb: And of course a stable sort on unique values is no different from an unstable sort.
<tilpner>
I would prefer per-device settings for this, but I'm not sure how to do that declaratively
<__monty__>
eyJhb: It only becomes relevant when the keys on which you sort *aren't* unique.
<lovesegfault>
gchristensen: do you have gpg-agent running on the remote machine?
<gchristensen>
tilpner: me too :x
<gchristensen>
lovesegfault: nope
<__monty__>
eyJhb: For example, ranger (a console file manager) obviously handles files and we *do* use stable sorts because you can sort on properties other than the name.
<eyJhb>
But, if it is only file names, then it makes no sense, right?
<MichaelRaskin>
Fully declarative storage setup is overrated, on-boot storage configuration is one thing that _is_ guaranteed to happend from scratch, so a set of imperative steps is good enough (and any expressive enough abstraction is indistinguishable from a bunch of steps)
<lovesegfault>
gchristensen: does gpg --list-secret-keys work on the remote?
<lovesegfault>
(assuming an empty keyring on the remote, as you said you don't scp it)
<tilpner>
pkgs.hydra disappeared, am I supposed to use hydra-migration?
* tilpner
reads releasenotes
<gchristensen>
lovesegfault: I don't have gpg on the remote
<lovesegfault>
gchristensen: I thought you forwarded your gpg socket though?
<lovesegfault>
Why do that if you don't have/use gpg?
<gchristensen>
the gpg-agent is for forwarding SSH keys only I think? I didn't think it forwarded GPG being able to sign stuff
<tilpner>
rl-2003.xml helped
<lovesegfault>
Oooh, you forward your ssh agent, not gpg
<gchristensen>
lovesegfault: gpg-agent is my SSH agent
<lovesegfault>
Yes, but you use it for ssh keys, not gpg; correct?
<gchristensen>
right
<lovesegfault>
Yeah, so we're talking about different things :D
<gchristensen>
I didn't know gpg-agent was intended to be forwarded?
<eyJhb>
__monty__ then I assume that it can never happen. The function takes a array of strings, that it gets from a List() function, which could be from S3 etc. but even there you cannot have the same filename
<lovesegfault>
You can do it if you, like me, like signing all your commits but work from remote machines
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<lovesegfault>
But the forwarding there is different, since the secrets don't leave your box; the date is sent from the remote to local, then signed/encrypted/we locally and then sent back
<lovesegfault>
At least that's my understanding of how it works
<__monty__>
lovesegfault: Wow, that sounds so much better than generating and distributing signing subkeys to all your boxes >.<
<__monty__>
eyJhb: Well, could these files come from different directories?
<__monty__>
eyJhb: And why even consider unstable sorts? It's not as if they're much faster.
<eyJhb>
__monty__ Nope, then the path would be different (prefix). Because if it never makes sense, then why use it? It is used in a recursive call, on the server side.. So small things could mean the world
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<__monty__>
eyJhb: And you'll never pass relative paths?
<tilpner>
gchristensen: Booting with elevator=none does not change the queue schedulers from mq-deadline on my system
<__monty__>
eyJhb: How about when you migrate to another service that *does* support multiple entries with the same name?
<gchristensen>
tilpner: what about elevator=noop
<__monty__>
eyJhb: You should really have done some serious benchmarking to warrant making use of an unstable sort. The headaches from not noticing later on just aren't worth it.
<eyJhb>
Nope, not from my understanding. It returns the full path + name. - then the application will not work anymore, as there must only be one pr. Folder
<tilpner>
I'm not going to try that soon, server reboots are a weekly event
<tilpner>
But I suggested noop->none after echo noop > sda/queue/scheduler failed, but echo none was accepted
<eyJhb>
It is the Docker Registry, so even if the files are the same, the order doesn't matter, as it returns a file info
<tilpner>
(And I remember running into this a while ago, and it was weird then too)
<eyJhb>
Basically a little rubber ducky going on right now 😅 The order will NEVER matter is my conclusion, as it will always result in the same. As there is a call to function Stat(filename), and that will never know the order
<eyJhb>
__monty__ will research a little more, thanks!
<__monty__>
eyJhb: Hmm, why do you want to sort? Efficient searching? Maybe a trie could work?
<eyJhb>
There is no reason for it tbh...
<eyJhb>
But I think a lot will break if removed
<__monty__>
Did anyone else receive unsolicited mail from dropbox about their account being reactivated? I'm hoping this is a covid PR move and not a compromised account...
<colemickens>
um
<tilpner>
udev rules are probably the right way for declarative per-device schedulers
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<__monty__>
eyJhb: No reason and yet you rely on it? Are you sure it's unnecessary?
<__monty__>
nn, peeps
<eyJhb>
Not me that coded it, it seems very weird. As it is used in a walk function
<__monty__>
DF v. BF can definitely matter. If you need to traverse the whole thing then yeah order probably doesn't matter. Well, it might because of proximity on disk but that doesn't depend on filenames anyway.
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<gchristensen>
what was that GIMP fork which wasn't called GIMP?
<MichaelRaskin>
Glimpse
<cole-h>
krita maybe? Don't think it's a GIMP fork
<ashkitten>
my pr still hasnt been reviewed, i thought ppl wanted glimpse packaged ;-;
<MichaelRaskin>
Well, they seem to have independent development of an UI layout as the primary motivation
<MichaelRaskin>
(Glimpse)
<MichaelRaskin>
I am OK with Gimp, which is helped by the fact that I have already learned how to add a straight line to an image.
<ashkitten>
i'm not okay with the name and the developers' resistance to making the program friendlier in any way
<gchristensen>
the category of programs is annoying to me. it is so painful that every operation gets rastered in to a bitmap
<pie_[bnc]>
whats the right way to disable phases? :/
<clever>
pie_[bnc]: each phase has its own off switch, read setup.sh
<MichaelRaskin>
Gimp is kind of more complicated, it does keep the details of operations (if you use xcf)
<pie_[bnc]>
clever: ah.
<ashkitten>
(a friend discovered that wilbur's eyes flash red every 15 minutes or so while there is no image open, which gave them quite a scare. the gnu-imp developers refused to accept a patch to disable that "easter egg")
<MichaelRaskin>
Red sounds bloodthirsty. Not even enticing green?
<cole-h>
Since we're shilling PRs, anybody want to take a look at https://github.com/NixOS/nixpkgs/pull/84965/? ottidmes reports it doesn't seem to play videos for them, but it works for me (even in a pure shell!)
<pie_[bnc]>
hm theres no disable for patch phase
<samueldr>
pie_[bnc]: patchPhase = ":"; would do it
<samueldr>
: in bash is like true (the command)
<pie_[bnc]>
samueldr: im increasigly frustrated by my tunnel vision, i was doing that for something earlier
<cole-h>
Why not just `true` then?
<pie_[bnc]>
neverheless there is no flag for it :P
<samueldr>
cole-h: I'm not sure, but IIRC it's the way it's done
<MichaelRaskin>
cole-h: if you put a space after the URL, the friendly bot would show preview! #84965
<waleee-cl>
jw358: by any chance the proprietor of twitter.com/jusrin00 ?
<jw358>
yes yes
<jw358>
sory, my freenode nick is "jw358" because 358 is the finland country code
<waleee-cl>
jw358++ easy-purescript-nix is great
<{^_^}>
jw358's karma got increased to 1
<jw358>
thanks! please suggest any changes you need
<jw358>
i use it at work but i have no idea whta other people expect from it
<cole-h>
gchristensen: Damn, that's exactly what I was afraid of... It works fine for me (and that exiv2 error is harmless since I see it as well). Any chance I could get an strace of your invocation?
* cole-h
spins up a NixOS vm to see why this is being uncooperative
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<MichaelRaskin>
cole-h: I would also rate the experience as «does not play video».
<cole-h>
Fork.
<MichaelRaskin>
Does it play for you from a fresh user?
<cole-h>
I've forgotten how to create a fresh user hehe. But things play inside of a pure shell for me (after I work around OpenGL stuff because not on NixOS)
<gchristensen>
I know one way you could mkae a fresh user
<cole-h>
:P
<MichaelRaskin>
useradd -m -s /bin/bash test-user
<MichaelRaskin>
(with system administration privileges)
<gchristensen>
(install nixos)
<MichaelRaskin>
Well, one can install NixOS and keep old home and create a user with matching username and UID…
<jw358>
some european have now just told me that not every european has seen this or understands american culture :)
<gchristensen>
oh no
<jw358>
i grew up in arkansas so i'm very familiar with this
<gchristensen>
not sure I'd call that American Culture exactly ohno.jpg
<jw358>
hshahhaha
<jw358>
it's some part of america
<gchristensen>
those people definitely exist yes :|
<cole-h>
OK, I can reproduce in my VM.... But I don't know why >:((((
<waleee-cl>
jw358: lol there's similar stuff (granted originating in America) in the Baltics, http://ywamlatvia.org/ on of the people in my CS-program at uni got the "missionary"-bug and went to Latvia for heathen-converting
<waleee-cl>
*one
<waleee-cl>
granted not targeted at children
<jw358>
niceee
* waleee-cl
is from Sweden
<cole-h>
Ahah, I can reproduce if I remove all mpv binaries from my system... lol. Even clearing PATH it still somehow found one... sneaky.
<infinisil>
Ugh, znapzend managed to mess up again
<infinisil>
No shared snapshot between source and destination
<gchristensen>
wht'd it do this time?
<gchristensen>
deleted too many ? I've never seen that happen
<infinisil>
Fortunately it's only a tiny dataset
<infinisil>
No idea why it happened
<infinisil>
Well, the ssh connection wasn't set up properly for a couple weeks
<infinisil>
So maybe somewhere along the way it thought that it should delete old ones on the source, idk
<lovesegfault>
Nix is all fun and games until you spend the whole day trying to get your personal project to just build at all
<lovesegfault>
:P
<jw358>
waleee-cl: one thin gi want to do is to survey everyone in sweden based on their age range and if they know of caramel dansen and rosa helikopter
<cole-h>
lovesegfault: Me right now
<waleee-cl>
jw358: btw, the laestadians in Pohjanmaa and northern Sweden is pretty hardcore too
<cole-h>
And I still stuff to do due tonight :D
<jw358>
oh i havce never been north of tammerfors for very good reasons
<lovesegfault>
Simply _cannot_ get winit to work in a dev shell
<cole-h>
gchristensen: OMG I THINK I GOT IT :D
<cole-h>
gchristensen: It hardcodes the mpv binary path in settings.cpp
<waleee-cl>
jw358: ... millenials and a bit older I guess
<gchristensen>
oh!
<gchristensen>
eewww :)
<cole-h>
Pushing in a sec
<waleee-cl>
jw358: Ymmärätkö suomi hyvin?
<MichaelRaskin>
And that's why «tested on NixOS» is a separate checkbox…
<cole-h>
Pushed. gchristensen and MichaelRaskin, mind taking another looksee and see if it's all fine and dandy? ;)
<jw358>
waleee-cl: definitely not
<jw358>
im so angry all the time about everything being in finnish and lowquality swedish
<jw358>
there's no english service in finland
<waleee-cl>
I have some relatives over there, but my grasp of it gets worse every year
<jw358>
it's okay, you just need to nod and grunt in finland
<waleee-cl>
haha :)
<cole-h>
MichaelRaskin: Hehe, too true
<jw358>
"halutako pussia?" just nod
<jw358>
"joweifjaoeifjawofijaodjiao;efijwaf henkari?" show id
<jw358>
almost no other questions in everyday life
<waleee-cl>
pussia? Is that stadin slangi?
<cole-h>
I think this is some Baader-Meinhof stuff; I've run into Caramel Dansen like twice today now
<waleee-cl>
jw358: wiktionary gave me mixed signals on the meaning :/
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<cole-h>
Woo, patching `/usr/bin/mpv` -> `${mpv}/bin/mpv` and it works in my VM!
<jw358>
waleee-cl: it's just finnish for pase, like bag
<waleee-cl>
oh, it was "standard store dialogue, exhibit A" you were referring to
<MichaelRaskin>
cole-h: indeed, much more video
<cole-h>
gchristensen++ MichaelRaskin++ Thanks for taking a look!
<{^_^}>
MichaelRaskin's karma got increased to 25, gchristensen's karma got increased to 264
<cole-h>
That took like 2 hours to find the root cause x) I guess I should have grepped for `/usr/bin` first
<MichaelRaskin>
Small containers with nothing extra (or VM, indeed) + strace do wonders, actually
<waleee-cl>
some friends in another channel are following http://twitch.tv/revisionparty (demoscene competition, covid-style)
<cole-h>
I mean, I should have guessed. When I straced in my --pure shell, I looked for `mpv` (for the library it uses, actually) and should have realized it was opening `/usr/bin/mpv`
* ldlework
goes to sleep.
<colemickens>
is it a desired state change, or a declaration of new state?
<MichaelRaskin>
Wait, qimgv manages not to have its own $out/lib in RPATH??