<danderson>
in particular, WD Red 2-6TB recent models are apparently "Drive Managed SMR"
<danderson>
aka drives that lie about being SMR and the controller does the SMR on the sly
<danderson>
(confirmed by WD, btw - their excuse is "well those drives are for light use, so we expect to have idle time in which to drain the cache into SMR zones"
<danderson>
reported by various people where ZFS resilvering fails after a few hours, because ZFS overwhelms the drive's ability to keep lying to the OS
<gchristensen>
they must be kidding.
<danderson>
yeah, seriously
<danderson>
I got _really_ lucky apparently, my NAS has 8TB WD Reds, which are _just_ above the cutoff for SMR
<danderson>
so my drives are all the conventional stuff I paid for
<danderson>
but unless WD sorts this out amazingly, I think this might finally be the thing that breaks 15 years of loyalty to WD
<gchristensen>
this is incredibly short sighted
<gchristensen>
exactly
<danderson>
then again, what else would I use :/
<danderson>
Seagate is the only remaining other player, right?
<danderson>
WD bought out HGST and Hitachi, so the other great NAS drives are gone
<gchristensen>
RIP HGST :(
<danderson>
"In device-managed SMR HDDs, the drive does its internal data management during idle times. In a typical small business/home NAS environment, workloads tend to be bursty in nature, leaving sufficient idle time for garbage collection and other maintenance operations."
<danderson>
i.e. "it works fine as long as you don't use your drives too much"
<danderson>
A+ NAS drive, pay extra to use it less, or suffer broken ZFS pools
<danderson>
apparently the trick is there are SMR and non-SMR platters
<danderson>
writes land on non-SMR, and then the firmware moves the blocks to SMR during idle time
<danderson>
I mean, it's clever, I'll give them that, cool hybrid tech
<danderson>
... but that's not the specs I paid for...
<gchristensen>
yeah. clever and wrong
<danderson>
"If the drive stops to flush out the CMR zone, then the OS is going to see an almighty pause (ZFS reports dozens of delays exceeding 60 seconds – the limit it measures for – and I measured one pause at 3 minutes)."
<gchristensen>
wow.
<danderson>
so, combined with TLER, when the drive fills its CMR range, it pauses so long ZFS decides it's broken and kicks it out of the pool
<danderson>
the worst part is, either due to firmware bugs or deliberate deception, the drive lies to the OS
<danderson>
it doesn't report itself as drive-managed SMR, it just goes "nope, no zoned writes here, nothing to worry about"
<danderson>
and doesn't respond to SMR-specific commands
<gchristensen>
:(
<gchristensen>
so shady
<gchristensen>
that said, did you see that cool talk by seagate I think about dual-head drives and ZFS?
<ajs124>
I've been running Seagate Barracuda Compute SMR drives, because I got them a few years back for 20€/TB… the performance is indeed questionable.
<ajs124>
And I had to RMA at least two of them, so far.
<gchristensen>
20eur/tb, hey that is striking distance to my dream of mirroring the nix cache
<danderson>
consensus on r/datahoarder for now seems to be "your best bet is to buy the super expensive UltraStar datacenter SKUs, because they wouldn't dare mess with those"
<gchristensen>
wait, no, still too expensive.
<danderson>
but that was also my rationale for preferring WD Red over non-Red despite the price bump :(
<gchristensen>
danderson: I'm a shucker myself
<danderson>
gchristensen: I didn't see the talk, got a link?
<ajs124>
I was buying 6 of them + I'm a student, so I 30€ more per drive was really over my budget.
<danderson>
I decided I didn't want the angst of dealing with RMA from a shucked drive, iirc
<danderson>
meanwhile, friend just searched for "NAS drive" on amazon, sorted by lowest price, and ended up with some amazing SAS drives that someone was accidentally selling cheap
<danderson>
grmbl
<gchristensen>
nice
<gchristensen>
yeah I tried to rma a drive the other day and it didn't work, so
<ajs124>
considering the datasheet of mine says that they're specd for 8h/d runtime and I've been running them 24/7 RMAs have gone surprisingly well
<danderson>
ugh, and the other main contender for NAS drives, Seagate IronWolf, had a firmware bug for 9 months that caused random timeouts and terrible performance
<danderson>
everything is terrible, I'm just going to buy a magnetic drum recorder and store only 16kB of stuff
<gchristensen>
more data more problems
<ajs124>
tapes?
<gchristensen>
danderson: not to mention HP's SSD bug.
<danderson>
ajs124: don't tempt me! Just 2 days ago I was eyeing LTO7 tape libraries on ebay
<ajs124>
LTO7 tapes are <60€ for 6TB uncompressed
<ajs124>
lol
<danderson>
You can get a 24-tape library sans drives for $300 or so
<danderson>
but then the LTO7 drives are like $4000 each :(
<danderson>
and anything less than LTO7 you just eat through tapes at a ridiculous rate
<danderson>
(also tapes make no sense for less than 100TiB of stuff, it's much cheaper to just sync it into Backblaze B2 and pay rent for 5 years, but...)
<ajs124>
wait, that company is actually not far from me
<ajs124>
that just means you need to get 100TiB of stuff, doesn't it?
<gchristensen>
and 100TiB on tape is slow to scrub
<danderson>
I'm an order of magnitude off from "it makes sense to own a tape drive" :)
<gchristensen>
danderson: want ot mirror the cache for me?
<ajs124>
you can also do things that don't "make sense" just because "you want them" and "they're really cool", you know :P
<danderson>
how big is the nix cache?
<gchristensen>
200T as of last August
<danderson>
ajs124: I have a 25U rack in my basement, I know :D
<danderson>
but "lol $5000 for a tape library" is a bit much for just a toy :)
<ajs124>
Just like I build chromium in RAM xD
<danderson>
especially because then I have to set up a tape manager, and be organized about backups
<danderson>
and that... sounds like work
<danderson>
I just want to be cool and have tape backups :P
* gchristensen
just wants to enable danderson's dream
<ajs124>
is LTO6 more affordable?
<danderson>
kinda? LTO6 tape drives are about $1k on ebay
<danderson>
vs $3-4k for LTO7
<danderson>
to get really affordable, you need to go to LTO5 or LTO4
<danderson>
but LTO5 is only 1.5T per tape, vs. 6T/tape for LTO7
<danderson>
so, for my full backup, 11 tapes vs. 6 tapes
<danderson>
so with LTO5 and a 2U tape library, 1 full backup == half of the tape library, pretty much
<danderson>
(note most LTO tapes list the compressed capacity, assuming that you'll back up very compressible data - LTO7's headline is "15T per tape!"
<danderson>
but in reality it's 6T compressed, and they just make up "oh you'll probably get 2.5:1 compression, probably")
<danderson>
huh, weird, LTO8 drives are about the same price as LTO7 on ebay
<gchristensen>
this doesn't seem good ...
<gchristensen>
my big dataset at home basically can't get out of a resilver loop
<danderson>
although LTO8 is weird. Doubles the tape capacity, but the write speed stays about the same
<ajs124>
how does that happen?
<danderson>
so a full tape write is 5h on LTO7, 9.5h on LTO8
<ajs124>
are they pulling an "HDD" and heating up the meadium? :D
<danderson>
gchristensen: anything in dmesg?
<gchristensen>
all sorts of spew :P
<gchristensen>
(see also that youtube video on dual-head drives w.r.t. write speed and capacity)
<disasm>
worldofpeace++
<{^_^}>
worldofpeace's karma got increased to 113
<danderson>
looks like LTO8 is the same tape length (nearly 1km per tape!!), but more parallel tracks on LTO8
<danderson>
so they just made the write head smaller, I think?
<ajs124>
so the tape is going at half the speed?
<danderson>
no, there's more parallel tracks on the tape
<danderson>
I'm confused, but it looks like the drive writes all 960m on track 1, then rewinds and writes all 960m on track 2, etc.
<danderson>
ah, almost. They did the obvious optimization
<ajs124>
they're writing backwards?
<danderson>
track 0 writes start->end, track 1 writes end->start, etc.
<ajs124>
nice
<danderson>
hah, and speaking of WD cheating on SMR, LTO is fully shingled recording
<ajs124>
is WD SMR worse than Seagate SMR?
<danderson>
the tape has 4 main bands, inside each band are 52 "wraps", which are groups of 32 tracks
<danderson>
the drive writes the first "wrap" (32 tracks in parallel) from start of tape to end, then writes the next wrap backwards, and so on
<danderson>
each wrap overlaps partially with the other
<danderson>
what a weird layout, but I guess it works :)
<danderson>
ajs124: oh and careful with that ebay listing for LTO7 tapes, they're WORM tapes
<ajs124>
which means?
<danderson>
the drive will only let you write them once, never erase
<danderson>
Write Once, Read Many - apparently designed for industries where you need permanent records or something?
<ajs124>
interesting. is that a limitation of the material or how does that work?
<danderson>
"there is nothing physically different about WORM tapes"
<danderson>
it's just a bit in ROM that says "hey this is a WORM tape, don't erase"
<danderson>
and all LTO drives obey it, apparently?
<ajs124>
So what you're saying is that I should buy those tapes and modify them or my drive?
<danderson>
hah
<danderson>
and destroy the legal record-keeping industry for ever
<danderson>
"nooo you can't wipe WORM tapes, they're immutable records of truth!" "haha tape erase go brrrrrrr"
<gchristensen>
lol
<ajs124>
I'm wondering how much more sophisticated than that plastic tab on audio cassettes the implementation is
<cole-h>
danderson++
<{^_^}>
danderson's karma got increased to 6
<danderson>
ajs124: not much, afaict
<danderson>
but people don't really make homebrew LTO drives, so
<danderson>
and ultrium isn't going to sell an LTO drive that bypasses WORM :)
<gchristensen>
nows the time
<danderson>
oh wow they made LTFS, to make tapes look like filesystems
<danderson>
it uses XML, because of course it does
<danderson>
I can picture the disclaimers now
<danderson>
"warning: `ls` may take up to 5 hours"
<gchristensen>
throw a big enough nix store on flash and it'll take 5h
<ajs124>
these drive can seek, can't they? so it'll probably more like "ls may take up to 10min"
<danderson>
yeah LTFS allows you to seek through the tape
<danderson>
so it's not _completely_ unusable
<danderson>
... but probably don't put /home on tape :)
<gchristensen>
nix-collect-garbage on ltfs
<danderson>
the tape just catches fire
<ajs124>
swap to tape when?
<danderson>
wow, the tape eeprom is an RFID memory
<danderson>
no contact, just proximity read
<danderson>
that's whacky
<gchristensen>
neat
<danderson>
mostly impressed because LTO-1 was 2000
<danderson>
must have been science fiction back then
<danderson>
"ooo you can get information out of the tape ~without touching it~"
<ajs124>
apparently IBM also makes their own line of tapes and drives
<gchristensen>
ohyou bet they do
<ajs124>
Gen6 is from 2018 and has 20TB/tape
<gchristensen>
"consumables what?"
<danderson>
"oh I'm sorry, you wanted to use a _new_ tape, there's an extra license key for that"
<danderson>
"how many tapes do you think you'll be writing over the next 10 years? We can do a volume discount"
<gchristensen>
"20T? we'll put you down for 1."
<danderson>
confused: LTO tapes are wound around a single reel in the cartridge. How... does the drive read the tape?
<ajs124>
Gen 5A comes either with FC or Ethernet. Nice.
<danderson>
does it have like an extra internal spool where it reels to? Then rewinds to get the tape back into the cart?
<ajs124>
that's the 2015 generation. and this is a replacment drive. as in, you can only buy this if you send them your old defective drive. wow.
<danderson>
sounds about right
<danderson>
the experience of buying from IBM: the salesperson says "look I'm sorry, can I speak to your manager? Or actually, put me through to the CFO, this is going to hurt"
<danderson>
okay now I'm in the bargaining phase...
<danderson>
"maybe I'll just get a cheap LTO-5 to start, and then once I have it running I can justify an LTO-8 upgrade later..."
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<MichaelRaskin>
On the other hand, it is said that they would quote you a price and a schedule for replacing anything that you have ever bought from them. And if you agree and pay, at the promised time there will be a drop-in replacement part.
<tilpner>
immae: Are you looking for something to self-host?
<immae>
tilpner: I already have a simple one (termbin), I was curious about alternatives :)
<tilpner>
immae: If you don't mind the extra complexity, https://git.tx0.co/tilpner/rpb-s3/tree/ is what I ended up with. It's slightly configurable and does syntax highlighting too
<gchristensen>
oh cool
<immae>
Do you have an example paste result and how you call it?
<immae>
(my current setup - the one of termbin - is via `cat code | nc my-server 9999`)
<tilpner>
I have no idea how to webdev, and it took a really long time to get selection working properly
<immae>
It’s a big file indeed
<tilpner>
Not having the line numbers show up in selection (with ^A too), without JS or weird gaps in the copied text is not as trivial as it should be
<immae>
tilpner: it lacks a copy-paste/curl possibility though
<srk>
tilpner: /raw endpoint is nice as well
<immae>
ah
<tilpner>
Yes, /raw would be nice
<srk>
I like how paste.rs is done, no extension = no hilight
<tilpner>
But the idea is to have a client-side pastebin
<tilpner>
And the client runs on the machine that creates the paste
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* srk
needs urxvtd-collect-garbage-consoles
<sphalerite>
srk: it's called `pkill rxvt` :p
<MichaelRaskin>
Now you just need to write an AI that can determine if the console is already garbage
<MichaelRaskin>
I actually have a procedure that can be interpreted as Firefox instance garbage collection that does not kill _all_ Firefox instances
<MichaelRaskin>
(this is helped, of course, by having a background Xvfb and sending fully automated instances there)
<srk>
had to tweak i3 to include ~ and - + as my muscle memory is used to that already
<srk>
maybe if I managed to organize stuff according to topics somehow
<srk>
or a search..
<srk>
hah, yeah, that might work
<srk>
if I register some terminals, like garbage collector roots
<MichaelRaskin>
Tag all the things!
<MichaelRaskin>
And search by tag
<MichaelRaskin>
Hmmm. Are you sure you do not want to discover screen?
<srk>
I think I'm missing something with screen
<srk>
names?
<srk>
you get numbers
<MichaelRaskin>
I have a ton of named screen sessions
<srk>
how do you restore these?
<MichaelRaskin>
Some of them are attached inside other screen sessions
<MichaelRaskin>
fzf/rofi over the list of session names, of course
<srk>
(not a solution cause of scrolling but ..)
<srk>
I see
<srk>
maybe eternal terminal sessions could be used
<cole-h>
ldlework: Sorry for ditching yesterday. /go 11
<cole-h>
oops
<cole-h>
ldlework: But yeah, I can probably fit a game in after class this afternoon, ~3.5 hours if you're available
<ldlework>
cole-h: you have 3.5 hours, or you're available in 3.5 hours?
<cole-h>
Available
<cole-h>
in ~3.5 hours
<cole-h>
(darned enter key)
<ldlework>
ping me :)
<cole-h>
Will do
<ldlework>
cole-h: maybe you can play gchristensen
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<ldlework>
This nix expression requires that Mathematica_12.1.0_LINUX.sh is already part of the store. Find the file on your Mathematica CD and add it to the nix store with nix-store --add-fixed sha256 <FILE>.
<ldlework>
awww
<ldlework>
:D
<cole-h>
Heh
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<joepie91>
drakonis1: "Meaningful means here on one side on a personal level, like when I attended the X.Org Developer and Wine conferences on two consecutive weekends in October last year in Canada and on the way back home the Gnome Shell meetup in the Netherlands."
<joepie91>
small world.
<joepie91>
that gnome-shell meetup was at revspace :)
<drakonis1>
oh my oh my there's playlists for all the somafm radios too
<cole-h>
drakonis++ I'm jamming right now
<{^_^}>
drakonis's karma got increased to 7
<cole-h>
Funkayy
<ldlework>
cole-h: drakonis1 you guys are crazy
<ldlework>
i'm on a rollercoaster over here, "yesyesyesnononoyesnooooyes!"
<ldlework>
XD
<drakonis1>
hah
<ldlework>
game is over basically
<ldlework>
good one
<drakonis1>
i can see
<cole-h>
ldlework: :D
<ldlework>
btw
<ldlework>
pass, pass
<drakonis1>
my moves got denied there
<cole-h>
When you don't double-hane yourself, turns out you can hang on fairly well!
<ldlework>
yeah hit accept
<ldlework>
i'll review if you want
<cole-h>
How does t his even work
<drakonis1>
well
<drakonis1>
there we go
<eyJhb>
Anyone up for wording this better? "This error may be returned when the requested "n" number of results is not an integer type" n refers to a pagination vaule of results to return
<drakonis1>
goddamn.
<drakonis1>
that's one hell of a lead
<drakonis1>
i couldn't finish the loop to actually turn it around
<cole-h>
You almost got me withthat
<cole-h>
I almost left E5 open for you to take
<ldlework>
drakonis1: got a review going if you want to join us
<Valodim>
that was surprisingly entertaining :)
<cole-h>
Then I was like "HOLY SH** NO WAY HE CAN GET ME"
<joepie91>
eyJhb: so if I got this right, `n` is a parameter that you can provide, and if you erroneously specify something other than an integer (actual integer? or integer value as string?), the error in question is produced?
<eyJhb>
Yeah, and it is a integer string
<eyJhb>
Think API and HTTP
<joepie91>
eyJhb: the "may" in there, is that actually a "may"? or is it a "will"?
<eyJhb>
It is a WILL, but it is standard to use may I guess from all the others
<samueldr>
joepie91: I figure you are a stickler to the rules, and do the monopolistic (unfun by design) choices?
<joepie91>
samueldr: not so strict about the rules (I often negotiate alternate rules), but I definitely play it to the fullest intention of the game :)
<joepie91>
and frequently convince people into taking bad deals
<samueldr>
I would have figured you would keep control on the limited amount of houses :)
<joepie91>
like, if you're gonna play Capitalism The Game, I will certainly illustrate what the consequences of that are...
<joepie91>
samueldr: nah, I just gain an edge, often through a deal that is advantageous to me, and then use that edge to quickly expand beyond my competitors
<joepie91>
to the point that they cannot fairly compete anymore
<joepie91>
ie. the end state of capitalism :)
<joepie91>
sometimes that means not giving up houses by not upgrading to hotels
<joepie91>
usually not
<joepie91>
I do have to say that if you do play it this way, the game's design pretty much works as originally intended
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<gchristensen>
pro tip for the home cooks out there: box graters can really take a bite out of your thumb, so don't do that
<ashkitten>
oww
<gchristensen>
that is remarkably close to what I said!
<samueldr>
I always thought I was unduly worried about that happening
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<MichaelRaskin>
What sharp implement cannot, after all
* samueldr
tries to figure out a pedant-proof phrasing, but fails
<MichaelRaskin>
(I have barely-visible old traces on my thumb from a kitchen knife)
<joepie91>
and all the bits that get dirty, are dishwasher-safe, at least for that model
<gchristensen>
I've got something like it, but it is a pain for just 50g of cheese
<joepie91>
ah, I've actually found this one easy enough that I don't bother buying grated cheese anymore
<joepie91>
I just grab whatever chunk of cheese I have left over that's too annoying to take slices off, dump it in there, and a few seconds later I have grated cheese :P
<joepie91>
it does occupy a prime spot in my cupboard above the counter though
<joepie91>
the dishwasher-safeness is a big part of that though, if I couldn't just dump the parts into the dishwasher I wouldn't use it anywhere near as often, because cleaning the grates is a pain
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