<ashkitten>
i mean, i assume as much as deadpool is immortal, right?
<drakonis>
its a hivemind of spiders
<drakonis>
you have to kill them all to kill spideys
<ottidmes>
so keep a few safe as backup, and maybe have a lab where instead of a clone, it would trigger spiders hatching XD
<ashkitten>
what good character design tbh
<ashkitten>
get you a guy who can do both (be a man and also a swarming mass of spiders)
<drakonis>
gross
<ashkitten>
dont talk like that about my new boyfriend >:(
<aleph->
lol
<gchristensen>
growing up we always had ~1 wolf spider in the house, named Frank
<ashkitten>
gchristensen++
<{^_^}>
gchristensen's karma got increased to 257
<ashkitten>
anyone else keep spiders around?
<gchristensen>
I let them be, but I don't exactly go looking for more
<ottidmes>
I don't like them, but if they let me be and just live into corners of the room, I mostly let them be as well, but have had it happen quite a few time that they think it a good idea to drop right on top or front of me, there I draw the line... (last time it happened in the car, not cool)
<gchristensen>
anyone want to make guesses about how websites like Twitter determine if you're covered by GDPR?
<MichaelRaskin>
Are you sure specifically Twitter _does_?
<gchristensen>
I am quite sure twitter is GDPR compliant if that is your question?
<MichaelRaskin>
Which would probably make them the largest GDPR-compliant social network operator…
<MichaelRaskin>
I am not sure how much ad targeting they do on non-logged-in users, it might be that they can be GDPR compliant by generally selling advertising with context-driven targeting.
<cole-h>
Haha, finally bisected my sway-segfaulting issue
<cole-h>
It comes from a seemingly-innocuous commit: "This function checks whether the backend would accept an output configuration, without applying the changes."
<cole-h>
colemickens: Are you on the latest version of your nixpkgs-wayland atm?
<colemickens>
cole-h: ish
<colemickens>
cole-h: a day behind at max?
<cole-h>
Yep, then you'll be fine. When you have a second to maybe deal with breakage, mind updating to latest and see if sway starts fine for you?
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<cole-h>
I start from TTY and have been getting a cursor appearing after starting, but nothing else, and systemd logs for the unit reports a segfault
<cole-h>
If does the same for you, I'll start drafting an issue. If not, it's probably because of my weird amalgam of Arch + Nix, in which case I might want to hasten my switch to NixOS :P
<ottidmes>
cole-h: what is keeping you at Arch
<cole-h>
Laziness, mostly
<cole-h>
The fact that I'm in the middle of a semester is another reason
<ottidmes>
fair enough
<cole-h>
"Middle" loosely; finals end ~14 May
<ottidmes>
I use the same Arch install through most of my studies
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<cole-h>
gchristensen: I hadn't seen the Ackermann function before. I looked up a Haskell implementation and ran the same inputs as I did on {^_^}. And then I looked up what it did.
<cole-h>
This won't complete in my lifetime.
<gchristensen>
:D
<MichaelRaskin>
Even if it did, _printing the result_ would not…
<cole-h>
Let's see how long ack 4 2 takes on my system...
<cole-h>
MichaelRaskin: Very true :D
<ashkitten>
woo, deployed my server with no issues yet again
<ashkitten>
i'm still a bit cautious whenever i do that, but i do have backups!
<ashkitten>
infinisil++
<{^_^}>
infinisil's karma got increased to 248
<infinisil>
Ohh with nixoses/nixus still?
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<ashkitten>
yes
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<ashkitten>
the most annoying thing that's happened during an upgrade is one time i forgot to put new zfs filesystem mounts in my server's config, so during the upgrade it unmounted the datasets for postgresql and matrix-synapse which caused my matrix sessions to think they were invalidated and log me out
<ashkitten>
which is really frustrating because whenever i add a new session i have to update the pgp-signed device fingerprints list on my server for my friends to non-interactively verify my sessions
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<cole-h>
Is it possible to inject evironment variables into already-running systemd units without restarting them?
<ashkitten>
cole-h: can you edit environment in /proc/pid?
<ashkitten>
i haven't actually checked
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<cole-h>
99.9999% sure it's RO
<ashkitten>
shrug
<cole-h>
"you cannot change the /proc/${pid}/environ file, even if you are root" (according to SO)
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<ashkitten>
rip
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<cole-h>
Yeah, I saw. When I tried to attach to the process (sway in my case), my entire session froze until I ssh'd in from my phone and `pkill`'d gdb 😬
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<pie_[bnc]>
cole-h: edef also knows things about this
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<lovesegfault>
does everyone see my away messages or just me?
<sphalerite>
cole-h: yeah, if you want to do it to sway you're better off not doing it somewhere that relies on sway for its input, i.e. switch to a text console first :D
<cole-h>
:P Fair
<cole-h>
or I could just restart my session lmao
<sphalerite>
that's boring.
<sphalerite>
I used gdb to restart a make process with more cores within a nix build at one point
<sphalerite>
I think that approach is a lot more fun.
<sphalerite>
:D
<cole-h>
You'll have to tell me about that another time
* cole-h
heads off to sleep
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<eyJhb>
Trying to fix a bug in Docker, and suddenly every little change needs to be reflected in the client as well. And the fix might break existing solutions
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<evertedsphere>
does anyone have a guide to undervolting laptops for someone that's never done it
<evertedsphere>
using services.undervolt and i think i found this thing called s-tui that might be relevant?
<evertedsphere>
like how do i find the correct amount to undervolt by basically
<__monty__>
Reclaiming battery life?
<evertedsphere>
not really a priority for me, i'm more concerned about (i believe) being able to decrease temps
<evertedsphere>
when compiling things my system runs at 90-95c
<srk>
I've used to cap max frequency
<srk>
when dealing with this
<srk>
for i in {0..11}; do echo 2000000 > /sys/devices/system/cpu/cpufreq/policy$i/scaling_max_freq; done
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<__monty__>
That's some esoteric poetry there.
<gchristensen>
lol
<gchristensen>
sometimes I just can't start a sentence and try a zillion times
<MichaelRaskin>
gchristensen: have you seen that link on Lobsters about Talon or do you only filter by
<MichaelRaskin>
Nix mentions?
<gchristensen>
oh cool I haven't
<gchristensen>
but I think talon is very sketchy
<__monty__>
What's talon?
<ottidmes>
gchristensen: did you get around writing about your root setup? Also you mentioned you blogged frequently, but your latest post seems to be 2018, or do I have the wrong person's blog?
<gchristensen>
ottidmes: "I blog frequently" was a joke :x I am writing it now, though!
<__monty__>
ottidmes: Upgrade your irony detector ; )
<gchristensen>
talon is free-as-in-beer, closed source software listening to everything you say with administrative access to your system
<MichaelRaskin>
I think the Linux version is subscription?
<__monty__>
That doesn't sound like a stellar idea.
<ottidmes>
__monty__: well I suck at it in real life, let alone in writing :P e.g. I always seriously respond to things clearly not meant seriously
<__monty__>
ottidmes: If they're clearly not serious maybe stop responding seriously : >
<__monty__>
Wow, talon is ungoogleable.
<MichaelRaskin>
Looks like the zero-cost macOS-only release was more of a hype-building move than a part of long-term model, as the _betas_ are paid
<ottidmes>
__monty__: that's the thing with such habits/tendencies, easier said then done to stop doing so
<__monty__>
Got LoL results. Then stuff about logging, as in trees. Then a mix of LoL and trees...
<gchristensen>
last I talked to the author they had no plans to bill for it
<MichaelRaskin>
Right now: private beta, early access $15/month, three platforms (on the website)
<gchristensen>
I told the author I wouldn't use it unless it was FOSS or cost an amount of money reasonable for its featureset (ie: >$1)
<srk>
what's the hard part? speech recognition?
<__monty__>
So the business model is explicitly to sell user data?
<gchristensen>
everything lol
<MichaelRaskin>
_That_ they use FOSS from Facebook
<gchristensen>
__monty__: no they say they don't
<MichaelRaskin>
wav2letter
<srk>
oO
<MichaelRaskin>
gchristensen: it might be «no plans to bill» meant «zero idea yet how we structure the pricing», not «we are not going to»
<srk>
MichaelRaskin: that's cool!
<gchristensen>
maybe
<__monty__>
So the business model is to go bankrupt? 🤨
<gchristensen>
but with something so powerfully spyware-capable, I'm not going to use it unless I have good confidence I do understand the business model. that it is either FOSS and auditable, or I'm paying an appreciable amount of money to make the author's interests and my interests align
<gchristensen>
not perfect, but
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<MichaelRaskin>
Hmmm, Patreon doesn't show subscriber stats.
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<srk>
mm, talon even does eye tracking
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<MichaelRaskin>
gchristensen: I wonder what will be your opinion if Talon ends up being surprisingly cheap, reusing the open wav2letter core from Facebook (apprently also tuning it), and comes-with-source in Python.
<gchristensen>
sounsd good :)
<MichaelRaskin>
I mean, it _seems_ to be the current state of the private beta
<gchristensen>
at the time he wasn't opposed to "if you pay me $300, I'll grant you access to the source code"
<MichaelRaskin>
Might be that the new version is more Python, which increases the chance that you actually have access to the code.
<MichaelRaskin>
(by default)
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<__monty__>
POSIX quiz: How many times should a process fork to make sure it's daemonized?
<qyliss>
zero, because "daemonizing" is a fundamentally flawed concept
<gchristensen>
8 for good luck
<qyliss>
But my guess is the answer you're looking for is two?
<__monty__>
I can define what I mean more specifically but that'll make the game very boring.
<__monty__>
Do tell us why daemons are flawed though.
<gchristensen>
a process manager should watch it instead. needing a pidfile to do that is not great
<qyliss>
^^
<gchristensen>
a pidfile means you're either accidentally watching the wrong process (because it died and the process was respawned) or implementing string-matching in the process name
<gchristensen>
easier to just, you know, watch it directly :P
<Emantor>
Perhaps there are also systems to impose constrains on resource usage this way, even for child processes!
<MichaelRaskin>
They might also clean up the group identifier right after the last member exits, so please don't use this for log sorting
<qyliss>
systemd has to do all sorts of hacks to track processes that fork
<qyliss>
But for some reason doesn't seem to want to actually _discourage_ it.
<gchristensen>
yeah like running everything in its own cgroup
<__monty__>
I'm not sure that's easier. How do you make sure the watched process doesn't have access or can get access to a controlling TTY?
<Emantor>
Oh? I thought the general encouragement was to go for socket activation?
<MichaelRaskin>
Well, they track stderr logging by cgroup id, and yes, they lose a typical «configuration does not match system state» complaint by well-written daemons because these exit before systemd handles the logs
<__monty__>
That's my perception too.
<qyliss>
I suppose they're encouraging socket activation, but most daemons can already run in the foreground with an option or whatever
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<MichaelRaskin>
Why would systemd encourage something actually portable. Next thing you will ask them to read POSIX before breaking nohup.
<ashkitten>
gchristensen: did you ever get past that first line in yr blog post?
<gchristensen>
I have at least two sentences worth keeping now!
<ashkitten>
every morning i wake up and open palm slam the a button press into the "erase hard drive" button
<ashkitten>
i tried
<gchristensen>
lol!
<ashkitten>
"the a button press" *shakes fist at line editing on a phone*
<MichaelRaskin>
To be fair, it's not really erasing the hard drive
<ashkitten>
well why not >:(
<MichaelRaskin>
I mean some parts of /home/ are kept!
<ashkitten>
obviously gchristensen should just have no hard drive on his computer and netboot a blank nixos image
<gchristensen>
most of my servers do exactly thaht
<gchristensen>
and my home server doesn't keep /home :P
<MichaelRaskin>
Then it probably keeps /var
<ashkitten>
if i didn't care about preserving my firefox profile and a few other stateful applications...
<gchristensen>
actually no, that one only keeps /boot and /nix
<gchristensen>
(and /persist)
<MichaelRaskin>
Oh well, you call it /persist instead of /var
<gchristensen>
well, /var keeps too much junk
<ashkitten>
tbf /var is overloadei
<ashkitten>
overloaded
<MichaelRaskin>
True
<gchristensen>
and /persist on that server has just 3 things: SSH host keys, a wireguard private key, and a the database for vault
<ashkitten>
my server has a bunch of mutable data, like postgresql, mastodon, and synapse
<gchristensen>
I'mnot arguing for throwing away all the state, but instead opting in to keeping state, as opposed to defaulting to keeping state
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<ashkitten>
yeah
<ashkitten>
i just like making light fun of other people's completely reasonable practices
<gchristensen>
which reasonable practices? :)
<ashkitten>
throwing away all supposedly reproducible state on boot, to test that it's actually reproducible
<MichaelRaskin>
Of all things, Firefox profile is what I reset per-window.
<gchristensen>
ah
<gchristensen>
one of the sentences I keep is where I call any OS which can't do this legacy
<MichaelRaskin>
Of course I actually have long-lived profiles in Firefox, but these need to deserve longevity (and then they are used for a single web app)
<MichaelRaskin>
On the other hand, if it is not web app, it might not even need a Firefox
<MichaelRaskin>
gchristensen: and of course with a proper read-only /etc you would have even less to wipe…
<gchristensen>
agreed
<MichaelRaskin>
Maybe we should even patch shadow to move /etc/shadow and /etc/passwd out of /etc
<MichaelRaskin>
This is the _only_ thing in /etc where just symlinking the mutable stuff to /persist is _not_ easy
<MichaelRaskin>
(Because shadow wants lockfiles right there in /etc)
<ashkitten>
why does shadow need lockfiles
<MichaelRaskin>
For _changing_ passwords
<ashkitten>
that reminds me, i should disable passwords on my server
<ashkitten>
i only use the root account there anyways, the only thing my normal user acct is used for is headless weechat
<__monty__>
If a process is not a session leader can its SID be reused as a PID?
<gchristensen>
"Discovering the feeling of the negative load factor, the insufficiently strapped and totally surprised passenger held onto the ejector handle and activated it unintentionally"
<MichaelRaskin>
Is that an incident report about a two-person jet?
<gchristensen>
and /boot is just some filesystem that grub knows how to read?
<danderson>
init is unset, meaning "run /init in the initramfs"
<danderson>
yes, it's just part of /, which is an ext4 filesystem
<danderson>
this box doesn't boot via UEFI, it seems
<MichaelRaskin>
I use an UEFI partition as /boot too
<danderson>
I also have a laptop that boots with EFI, through a different mechanism
<danderson>
EFI runs systemd-boot (an EFI application in /boot, which is the EFI system partition). systemd-boot finds a "unified" kernel image (EFI app that bundles kernel+initrd+cmdline into one file), and chainloads into that
<danderson>
efistub in the unified binary then sets stuff up in memory so that the kernel and initrd can find each other, and chainloads into the kernel
<danderson>
gchristensen: curious, why do you ask?
<gchristensen>
part of this blog post is talking about how I can boot after I erased my /, so I want to explain how NixOS is different... and to do that , for most readers to appreciate it, they'll probably need a cursory understanding of how other distros do it
<gchristensen>
so I'm going to do a little bit of a visual on how your laptop boots, and then compare it to NixOS
<etu>
g'evening
<__monty__>
Glad I subscribed to that RSS feed : )
<MichaelRaskin>
_just_ booting after erasing / is easy
<MichaelRaskin>
You only need to have /etc on a separate volume (or inside /persist, or whatever)
<gchristensen>
who would want an /etc :|
<etu>
I don't have an /etc
<gchristensen>
my man!
<etu>
It's a terrible idea of a directory
<etu>
so messy
<MichaelRaskin>
My /etc is a symlink into store
<etu>
My project for this evening is to move more things into my nixconfig out from my private repo with private files
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<ashkitten>
i need to move more of my dotfiles into home-manager
<etu>
yeah, I have a private repo managed by stow that store my .password-store directory, it contains some scripts as well
<etu>
But I've moved more and more to home-manager, but my plan is to move everything except .password-store
<ashkitten>
i'd like to in theory be able to bring up a new machine without doing anything config-related
<ashkitten>
currently my zshrc isn't even tracked by anything, so it's out of sync on my laptop
<ashkitten>
that's a problem
<ashkitten>
i'd also like to bring all my stateful directories into one place and erase everything else (like gchristensen)
<etu>
I run / on tmpfs, but I also have the plan to migrate /home to tmpfs
<etu>
but that requires more home-manager :D
<ashkitten>
i wish i could have more things managed by home-manager and less things system-wide
<ashkitten>
i should also try to separate the desktop-specific home-manager things from the generic things i'd have even on a server
<ashkitten>
i've already done that for my system config
* etu
has configured his emacs config to be part of the emacs package as a file loaded by default
<ashkitten>
neat
<etu>
Next step is to dump emacs to a binary with all bundled elisp files needed, but that's quite tricky in 26 but it will be easier in 27 :)
<neeasade>
etu: that's nice, cool
<ashkitten>
i think it'd be cool for me as well to bundle all my configs so i don't have anything config related in /home (even symlinks)
<etu>
Then it will have insane startup speed and loading speed since it doesn't have to probe a lot of directories etc
<ashkitten>
if only i could do that
<ashkitten>
that would probably be a lot of patching of programs
<__monty__>
etu: Startup and loading speed approaching but not attaining vim's? : >
<etu>
__monty__: Can vim be my window manager?
<ashkitten>
what's that saying? emacs is a great operating system, shame it lacks a good text editor though?
<etu>
It's a quite decent WM
<neeasade>
emacs is blessed and cursed
<neeasade>
everything is global state
<neeasade>
so you can do things that were not intended
<neeasade>
it is a magical feeling
<etu>
indeed
<ashkitten>
can emacs be your pid 1 instead of systemd?
<gchristensen>
a buddy is working on a PHP port of systemd
<etu>
:O
<etu>
systemp?
<gchristensen>
I think it has a fairly crude name
<etu>
if you read it "sys temp" instead of "system p" it becomes even more confusing
<drakonis>
when's nix as pid1
<etu>
rewrite systemd in nix
<ashkitten>
then we can port it to the bsds and they'll hate us even more
<drakonis>
rewrite shepherd in nix
<cransom>
i wonder how many systemd re-implementations in go there are
<drakonis>
the bsds are neutral
<ashkitten>
0 is too many?
<drakonis>
ambivalent rather
<drakonis>
they dont care enough to use nix
* etu
wouldn't complain if systemd went for rust
<ashkitten>
the bsds think we're just trying to be flashy/trendy afaict
<ashkitten>
they don't take us seriously
<drakonis>
they think of everything like that
<ashkitten>
i mean, fair
<drakonis>
the things they wrote in the 90s are fineeee, dont need to ever write anything new
* etu
should probably start his blog post project as well
<ashkitten>
drakonis: that's not really true
<drakonis>
its their stance on things
<ashkitten>
eh, i don't think so
<ashkitten>
not from bsd people i've talked to
<drakonis>
which ones?
<drakonis>
openbsd repeatedly axes things
<ashkitten>
my gf is a netbsd dev and i'm friends with 2 other netbsd devs, also i think i know at least 1 freebsd dev
<drakonis>
thems netbsd things then
<drakonis>
i have too much exposure to freebsd people
<drakonis>
they radiate a aura of "dont touch anything"
<ashkitten>
openbsd is apparently the worst offender when it comes to that
<ashkitten>
freebsd i think is just trying to be linux
<ashkitten>
or compete with linux
<ashkitten>
which is really the same thing
<drakonis>
they'd be offended at that statement
<ashkitten>
yeah they would
<ashkitten>
it's not a truthful statement
<ashkitten>
but it has some essence of truth
<drakonis>
there's a statement by a illumos developer that largely encapsulates its problems
<drakonis>
doing only developer retention is worse than attracting new developers
<ashkitten>
how's illumos doing btw?
<drakonis>
badly
<ashkitten>
hm
<drakonis>
it stopped attracting new blood
<drakonis>
no release guarantees
<ashkitten>
yeah, that sounds about right
<drakonis>
so they have to support what already works forever
<drakonis>
they have nothing in place to deprecate code
<ashkitten>
i was honestly thinking about trying illumos at some point
<ashkitten>
i might still
<drakonis>
its 90s as hell
<ashkitten>
i'm into that
<drakonis>
then you'll be right at home
<ajs124>
Might as well try out SmartOS, instead
<ashkitten>
i'll probably be lost as hell
<ashkitten>
smartos is an illumos fork?
<drakonis>
yes
<drakonis>
kinda
<drakonis>
a bad issue with illumos is that it has a dozen forks with lots of patches
<drakonis>
and code doesnt flow upstream often enough
<ashkitten>
is that why everyone moved to zfsonlinux?
<drakonis>
its because illumos is pretty much dead and zfsonlinux was quite ahead of upstream
<drakonis>
it mostly stopped sending code back at some point
<drakonis>
then freebsd decided to roll up its sleeves and port zol to freebsd, then later they decided to turn zol into the source of truth
<drakonis>
its a nail on illumos' grave
<ashkitten>
it's so unfortunate that everyone treats linux as the only useful unix derived os, so many other unix-likes have died
<ashkitten>
so many neat ideas lost
<drakonis>
linux killed them all
<ashkitten>
it did
<ashkitten>
that's why i want to make nixos run on more things
<drakonis>
now it spends its days picking the bones of other dead unixes
<__monty__>
It's kinda worse than Microsoft in that respect >.<
<ottidmes>
but if you want decent hardware support, don't you almost need one of the big 3?
<ashkitten>
for recent hardware, maybe
<ashkitten>
it depends
<drakonis>
yes well
<drakonis>
for staying on top of recent hardware, you need the big 3
<drakonis>
really just big 2 because macs only runs on apple sanctioned hardware
<ottidmes>
fair enough
<ashkitten>
but yeah idk, my big out there wish is i'd love a microkernel to take over the free software world
<drakonis>
linux is sort of inching towards that atm
<drakonis>
fuchsia exists but its google owned and its likely going to be like chromium
<ashkitten>
yeah but linux is a big mess of legacy apis, even if it's well-maintained legacy apis (some of the time)
<ashkitten>
i don't think linux could ever be a microkernel
<__monty__>
Isn't darwin technically a microkernel?
<drakonis>
if linux actually reaches a point where it can do API versioning with ebpf
<drakonis>
it is a hybrid
<drakonis>
but apple seems to be moving back to microkernel with newer versions
<ashkitten>
also, linux doesn't really seem to deprecate apis much does it? they just create newer apis instead of fixing the things that are broken with the old ones
<gchristensen>
darwin's libc shells to implement some of its features lol
<samueldr>
isn't that because it's as specified? I don't think it's only darwin's
<drakonis>
oh yes it does do that a lot
<__monty__>
No respect for a good kludge, tsk tsk.
<gchristensen>
linux has a "don't break the userspace" promise, ashkitten
<drakonis>
internal APIs are fair game though
<samueldr>
(thankfully, as they do break it sometimes)
<drakonis>
they do break it only when nobody's still using it
<drakonis>
so software written against a very old kernel version probably won't run anymore
<drakonis>
gchristensen: they see that as an advantage
<ashkitten>
ky0ko: idk, isnt that what you were trying to boot it on
<gchristensen>
users see it as an advantage
<drakonis>
update every two years and almost never change
<ky0ko>
i was trying to do that for the 486, but linux's floppy code is broken
<ashkitten>
oh right
<ky0ko>
idk if i could actually make the starmax do floppy boot
<ky0ko>
also yes samueldr i have a starmax 4000/160 mt, i run netbsd on it. it's a good reliable machine and probably my second most used computer in my apartment right now
<drakonis>
freebsd users and developers parade that as a prime advantage lol
<drakonis>
"WE BUILD EVERYTHING IN THE SAME REPO"
<gchristensen>
okay but why ky0ko :')
<cransom>
using a software eject floppy for the first time was the coolest thing ever.
<samueldr>
ky0ko: what can / do you do, and what can't you do, from an older PPC computer?
<gchristensen>
cransom: I remember that day. wow.
<drakonis>
i miss floppies
<drakonis>
hell, i miss having ejecting physical media
<samueldr>
(if only there was a nice market for older fun computers around here)
<drakonis>
i dont have a disc drive anymore
<gchristensen>
cransom: I remember looking at the floppies with the flip-down lever with disgust after that
<MichaelRaskin>
I do not miss floppies
<ashkitten>
samueldr: ky0ko does her job from an ibook, don't mess with her
<drakonis>
its the nostalgia speaking
<samueldr>
(the best I can do is an old amiga 1000 IIRC announced for 4000$)
<MichaelRaskin>
Even the real ones were quite flaky
<cransom>
i used to be hardcore freebsd. it was the only os, until going nixos, that i was able to rebuild a working kernel and reboot.
<drakonis>
haha
<ky0ko>
samueldr: what can i do? basically all of my normal development tasks that don't specifically have to do with building entire linux distros. what can't i do? build entire linux distros in a reasonable amount of time, and also browse javascript heavy websites
<drakonis>
that's a change.
<MichaelRaskin>
Late floppies were a horror
<drakonis>
cransom: tell me about this
<ashkitten>
ky0ko: im gonna use yr 486 as a build machine
<samueldr>
ky0ko: I was curiout if you were "copping out" and just using it as a fancy thin client, but looks like you aren't, and that's neat
<samueldr>
curious*
<ky0ko>
samueldr: nope, i legitimately use it for development work and as a server machine for other retro computers
<ashkitten>
ky0ko is the coolest person i live with
<ky0ko>
i'm the only person you live with
<cransom>
whatever distro i was using (i tended to use whatever $work did), and i needed something kernel related changed, I never seemed to figure it out. make menuconfig and friends, any change i made, it just never worked out for me. granted, this was long, long ago and i'm sure i could figure it out now, but i don't want to.
<ashkitten>
ky0ko: hush
<drakonis>
ah so you two know eachother...
<drakonis>
quelle surprise
<ashkitten>
ky0ko is the mysterious "gf" i mention sometimes
<drakonis>
haw
<ashkitten>
i say gf when i don't wanna ping her cuz shes working
<drakonis>
i see
* ky0ko
is shrouded in a veil of mystery. and magic smoke. actually mostly magic smoke.
<drakonis>
ah magic smoke...
<ashkitten>
ky0ko: please dont set my computer on fire again
<drakonis>
does it make things grow out?
<MichaelRaskin>
And then ky0ko said «hi» like 5 minutes later and confirmed that that's she
<ky0ko>
i didn't set your computer on fire ever!
<ashkitten>
okay but dont set my computer on fire
<MichaelRaskin>
So mystery was not too long-lived
<ky0ko>
your computer catching fire has nothing to do with me! it did that all by itself!
<ashkitten>
i'm so proud of it, they grow up so fast *wipes off a single tear*
<MichaelRaskin>
ashkitten: I am not sure you are careful enough here. I am pretty sure ky0ko can electrocute your computer without technically speaking causing a fire
<gchristensen>
wait ashkitten you also lit a computer on fire?
<ashkitten>
gchristensen: no, it lit itself on fire. weren't you listening?
<gchristensen>
lol
<ashkitten>
don't use molex connectors, btw
<ashkitten>
they're dangerous
<ky0ko>
it wasn't even a molex connector that caught fire, ashkitten
<ashkitten>
they have a tendency to arc and melt themselves to cause a short
<ky0ko>
it was a sata connector
<ashkitten>
okay but the other end was a molex connector!
<ky0ko>
sigh
<ky0ko>
yes
<ky0ko>
and the molex connector didn't catch fire
<ottidmes>
I have used a computer that was clearly hit by lightning... my brother threw it away, but it turned out that one SATA port still worked, and after plugging in a seperate network card, it still worked fine for years
<ky0ko>
and the sata power connector did
<ashkitten>
wait you can do italics in irc??
<ky0ko>
i'm pretty sure that depends on the client
<samueldr>
the old cheaply crimped sata power connector issue?
<samueldr>
irc client dependent, but specced
<ashkitten>
samueldr: dunno, but it worked great for a year and then randomly smoked itself
<ky0ko>
samueldr: presumably
<joepie91>
ashkitten: there's an inverse/italics mIRC 'color' code
<ky0ko>
(i'm running from an irc <-> matrix bridge, so i'm just treating this like its a matrix channel - no idea how irc formatting actually works)
<joepie91>
think of it like <em>, the display isn't exactly defined but it gives *some* sort of emphasis
<samueldr>
I don't remember the source, but it showed a well-crimped from a badly-crimped one, and it was quite obvious then how it could end up causing issues
<joepie91>
ky0ko: hello fellow Matrix user
<ashkitten>
ah, emPHAsis
<samueldr>
and it's definitely not an issue with it being molex to sata, but really the connector :(
<joepie91>
ky0ko: vaguely surprised to see Matrix usage from someone using an old PC :)
<samueldr>
joepie91: didn't you read carefully? that's not a PC, /s
<joepie91>
ky0ko: vaguely surprised to see Matrix usage from someone using an old computing device :)
<ky0ko>
i'm running this from my more modern desktop machine, actually. i've considered trying to figure out a way to run matrix from an old netbsd box but haven't gotten around to it
<joepie91>
happy now :P
<ashkitten>
ky0ko: weechat has a good matrix plugin, supposedly
<joepie91>
ky0ko: does weechat run on netbsd?
<ky0ko>
i have gotten around to using mastodon on that though, but i don't do that much
<ky0ko>
joepie91: it does
<samueldr>
simple, have a beefy ryzen-based server serving it through a resizable vnc window
<ky0ko>
i might give that a shot
<joepie91>
ky0ko: then weechat-matrix is probably the shortest path
<ottidmes>
joepie91: now I have the mental image of someone busy typing on a calculator
<ashkitten>
ottidmes: that's ky0ko
<ky0ko>
samueldr: i may or may not have tried something like this :)
<ky0ko>
my main desktop is a ryzen
<joepie91>
ky0ko: there's also gomuks, dunno how much it supports
<ashkitten>
hey ky0ko you should tape a xeon phi to the back of your ibook and use it as an accelerator card for building linuxes
<joepie91>
nheko uses Qt, no idea if that is viable on netbsd
<joepie91>
that probably about exhausts the selection of Usable Clients
<joepie91>
ottidmes: lol
<ky0ko>
the fast graphics driver for the card in the starmax is semi-broken though, and the generic framebuffer driver is very slow and 256 color only with my configuration, so my attempts at running things remotely over x11/ssh were quite slow
<ky0ko>
ashkitten: the ibook doesn't have pci, so that's not workable
<ashkitten>
i'm sure you can figure out a way
<ky0ko>
ashkitten: how about i figure out how to duct tape and hotwire it to the toshiba libretto
<ashkitten>
yeah, okay
<ashkitten>
do that
<ky0ko>
im pretty sure the xeon phi is actually physically larger than the toshiba libretto...
<samueldr>
just do as the cool kids do, gut it out of all that made it nice, and shoehorn in a raspberry pi an low qualty LCD that doesn't fit
<ky0ko>
by quite a lot...
<ashkitten>
hmmm would a phi fit in your starmax case
<ashkitten>
that has pci right?
<ky0ko>
ashkitten: why do you think i was looking at those pci to pcie adapter cards from startech
<ashkitten>
i didn't know you were looking at pci to pcie adapter cards from startech
<ashkitten>
but i support you on this journey
<ky0ko>
we were literally talking about this and i went to find them
<ky0ko>
it was while we were looking at cursed adapters on aliexpress from that twitter thread
<ashkitten>
did you?
<ashkitten>
oh
<ashkitten>
right
<joepie91>
foone thread?
<ky0ko>
yeah
<joepie91>
is it bad that "the cursed adapters thread on twitter" 1) is a unique identifier, 2) and one that I recognize
<joepie91>
lol
<ashkitten>
i don't think i've seen any other people do cursed adapters threads
<ashkitten>
maybe you should do one
<ky0ko>
fun fact i've met foone in person
<ashkitten>
i'm sure ky0ko could find some truly cursed adapters
<ky0ko>
actually on the same day that i got my motorola starmax and sgi indy
<ashkitten>
huh
<ky0ko>
because that day was the day that vcf pnw happened
<ky0ko>
i got to hold an extremely large magneto-optical write-once disk
<ky0ko>
because foone has a whole bunch of unusual storage media
<ashkitten>
you only just found out about rts games?
<MichaelRaskin>
If you have python, there is matrixcli
<drakonis>
no i mean
<drakonis>
i found out about ai war 2
<ashkitten>
oh i see
<MichaelRaskin>
That requires patches in most cases
<drakonis>
someone gifted me the game
<drakonis>
and i have hitman 2's full catalogue
<ashkitten>
ugh i need to get a new chair, this one is leaky
<drakonis>
all of hitman 1 and 2
<drakonis>
VIDEO GAMES
<ashkitten>
it sinks down when i shift positions slightly
<drakonis>
i planned to continue doing nix pills lol
<drakonis>
THIS IS NOT GOOD FOR MY SCHEDULE
<ashkitten>
someone should gift me a chair
<samueldr>
(I did buy a cursed adapter yesterday, that has micro usb in for power, and type-A receptacle, so the device can both charge and be OTG
<drakonis>
race car variety?
<ashkitten>
yeah, it sucks lol
<samueldr>
(since my type-c dongle can't charge micro-B devices)
<drakonis>
i have a cursed adapter for three dozen dongles
<drakonis>
its a hydra adapter
<ashkitten>
why do gamers recommend these race car chairs they suck
<ashkitten>
i'd rather sit in a cushy office chair
<drakonis>
because its GAMING gear
<ottidmes>
ashkitten: mine creaks whenver I move the backside (guess I have to find out what to oil), and it broke down last week (luckily a matter of redoing all screws)
<drakonis>
GAMING IS MONEY
<gchristensen>
I think it makes their ram faster
<samueldr>
I never sat in one, so I can't say, but I guess it's some kind of groupthink, e-sport star has one, so it must be good
* ky0ko
downloads more ram
<samueldr>
e-sport star is a cousin of ringo starr
<ashkitten>
ky0ko: what computer of yours needs more ram? is it the x11 terminal?
<ashkitten>
did you ever get netbsd running on that anyways?
<ottidmes>
ashkitten: can you have enough ram?
<ky0ko>
ashkitten: yes except i actually got some ram for that
<ky0ko>
no, i still haven't reverse engineered it enough
<ky0ko>
i still haven't figured out where the serial port is mapped, but i have it narrowed down to most likely being within a specific 4mb range
<ky0ko>
thats still a lot of bytes to poke at to figure out where the serial port is though
<ashkitten>
ky0ko: i'd imagine that's fairly trivial to scan though?
<gchristensen>
I think ashkitten just volunteered
<ashkitten>
is this like when people in #dolphin-emu accidentally volunteer to be the release manager for 6.0?
<ky0ko>
if you want to write the mips assembly code to scan that address range, trying to initialize this serial chip the whole way through and handling potential crashes without losing state, be my guest
<ky0ko>
we have three of these things, have at it :)
<ashkitten>
ky0ko: i don't know how serial works
<ashkitten>
but if i knew how to do it i would try
<ky0ko>
alternately if you want to help you could download ghidra and i'll send you the project files in which i've been reverse engineering the bootrom
<ashkitten>
if you could do something like sandsifter and trap all exceptions while you scan, that might work i guess
<ashkitten>
idk how mips works for that though
<ky0ko>
yeah except this area is also where the system controller registers are and you could theoretically do a lot more than cause an exception
<ashkitten>
oh right
<ky0ko>
you probably wouldn't easily brick the board by accident though
<ky0ko>
not in a way i couldn't recover, anyway
<ashkitten>
how do you run code on it?
<ky0ko>
it will happily load any ecoff binary that you give it via tftp or nfs
<MichaelRaskin>
Given that ashkitten has just claimed _nothing_ is easy, that reassurance doesn't sound reassuring
<ashkitten>
wait, when did i say nothing is easy?
<MichaelRaskin>
> i don't know how serial works > idk how mips works for that though
<{^_^}>
undefined variable 'idk' at (string):296:33
<ashkitten>
{^_^}++
<{^_^}>
{^_^}'s karma got increased to 173
<ashkitten>
i don't know anything about mips or serial or initializing a controller
<ashkitten>
:)
<MichaelRaskin>
So maybe nothing you do with the board counts as «easily»
<ky0ko>
mips assembly isn't that complicated and i can give you datasheets
<ashkitten>
sounds good
<ky0ko>
the only weird thing about mips assembly is delay slots
<ky0ko>
80186 assembly in comparison is far more strange and unwieldy imo
<ashkitten>
is there any way to detect the presence of the serial bus on an address without actually trying to initialize it?
<ky0ko>
not really, no
<ashkitten>
aw
<ky0ko>
and really i'm not sure exactly how much info the host can actually get in terms of confirming "this is a serial port"
<ky0ko>
so basically you'd want to have the serial port hooked up to another machine, and output some data each time
<ashkitten>
ah that sucks
<ashkitten>
how big is the bootrom?
<ky0ko>
128kb, closer to 512kb uncompressed
<ashkitten>
how much have you documented it?
<ky0ko>
the bootrom area is much larger, because as it turns out they used the rest of the bootrom space as i/o space - and that's the region that needs scanned
<ky0ko>
not... a ton. i have some initial functions named, the few things i definitively know what they are are labeled, and the spaces are mapped so you can track execution flow properly, but the way they wrote the bootrom turns out to be quite a lot of work to understand
<ky0ko>
as it is i dont even know how they access the strings
<ky0ko>
if i did i could probably have my answer already
<ashkitten>
oh i see
<ashkitten>
i could take a look but i don't have any experience with this stuff so i probably won't be any help
<ky0ko>
the hardware registers i know of are all labeled correctly, so anything accessing those is labeled appropriately and several setup functions are labeled
<ashkitten>
we can talk abt this later
<cole-h>
Time flows slowly when staring at CI.....
<MichaelRaskin>
And CI goes slowly when you are staring at time
<cole-h>
Time just goes slowly, I think
<MichaelRaskin>
Maybe you do not have enough deadlines?
<gchristensen>
hah
<cole-h>
Most likely
<cole-h>
I mean, I have assignments due on Saturday and a class in ~2 hours, but that's it...
<__monty__>
A watched pot never boils.
<joepie91>
demonstrably false :P
<drakonis>
hmm
<MichaelRaskin>
(proceeds to post a proof video; nobody has patience to watch it till the boiling point)
<joepie91>
lol
<__monty__>
joepie91: Ask someone who's watching a pot to tell you how long they feel it takes.
<joepie91>
__monty__: shorter than forever!
<__monty__>
Clearly you didn't ask an actual person. They'd certainly say "Forever!"
<joepie91>
__monty__: what are you talking about human, I am an actual person!
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<MichaelRaskin>
«Every day is a Unicode awareness day»
<joepie91>
https:example.com
<cole-h>
MichaelRaskin: My terminal emulator doesn't recognize that as a valid URL ;)
<MichaelRaskin>
Too bad .com registry will not let me register the https꞉example.com domain name
<joepie91>
MichaelRaskin: try entering it into your browser
<gchristensen>
oh cool
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<MichaelRaskin>
joepie91: I know IDN exists, but large TLDs have _some_restrictions on IDN craziness
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<joepie91>
no, your browser will most likely interpret it as https://example.com :)
<joepie91>
because slashes are not actually required for something to be a URI (or even URL, I think?)
<MichaelRaskin>
Like, no
<MichaelRaskin>
joepie91: 1) Firefox opens https:example.com fine, 2) https꞉example.com is a different URL, 3) every day is a Unicode awareness day
<joepie91>
oh, I misread :D
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<MichaelRaskin>
cole-h observing https꞉//example.com/ is not an URL according to the highlighter is the only hint you could get without hexdumping or trying in the browser, to be honest
<joepie91>
MichaelRaskin: nah, the : is rendered a little differently
<cole-h>
Well, the space between "colon" and forward slash is suspicious as well
<joepie91>
:꞉
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<MichaelRaskin>
Next level of this silliness is of course https://github.com∕username∕mysite.user.name (replacing that last part with a subdomain of a domain I own I could serve this URL with a valid certificate)
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<cole-h>
More wonky spacing, but still spooky
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<MichaelRaskin>
well, if you know the user's font preferences you can choose among ⧸／∕⁄
<samueldr>
⧸／∕⁄-_ *plop*
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<colemickens>
lovesegfault: did you wind up with vaapi in nightly? After cole-h prompted me to check again, all of my failures are gone and h264 takes 4% CPU in Firefox. :D
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<cole-h>
colemickens: Any chance you could force an update of nixpkgs-wayland? sway fixed the issue I was having
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<colemickens>
It should be hourly. If something's blocking it I'll have to manually fix the package that's sticking.
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<colemickens>
Gasp, freerdp had a release, is the sky falling?!
* joepie91
checks
<joepie91>
colemickens: hell still toasty
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<joepie91>
sky appears in place
<joepie91>
it's eerily quiet though
<MichaelRaskin>
Yes, the sky is falling; up, in a way described by Hubble's constant.
<joepie91>
lol
<joepie91>
colemickens: more seriously, I wonder how many functionally-dead projects are coming back to life in these days
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<joepie91>
because people have seas of time and nothing to do
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