<slack1256>
What I don't understand, the diffraction on the surface was done via pure vaccum pressing of the chocolate? He seems to have done that with PLA too.
<slack1256>
I don't know what is a gratin on my native tongue.
<slack1256>
Nevermind, I ducked that.
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<cole-h>
gchristensen: I don't think I'll ever get tired of that "haha ___ go brrrr" meme
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<samueldr>
haha history essay go brrrr? ;)
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<cole-h>
Oh no
<cole-h>
Well, I'm ~70% done :)
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<ashkitten>
cole-h: that meme reminds me of the old rage comics style shit channers used to use all the time, but i guess it helps that it's mostly been decent people i've seen using it
<cole-h>
lol
<cole-h>
I remember the days of rage comics
<ashkitten>
i'm still wary of memes like that though because they can get very close to explicit ableism and people will still defend them
<ashkitten>
i haven't seen it be used in a way that seemed shitty though, so..
<ashkitten>
yet™
<cole-h>
Pardon my ignorance, but what does that mean? Just it being used in a crappy way?
<ashkitten>
eh, more nuanced than that
<ashkitten>
i don't know if i can properly explain what i mean
<samueldr>
symbols can be co-opted by people
<samueldr>
memes can be a sort of symbolism
<samueldr>
some people are bad :(
<ashkitten>
yeah
<samueldr>
is that a non-nuanced approximation?
<samueldr>
BUT, don't forget that people are hard, varied, and non-local
<samueldr>
just like how that green frog is not the same thing in asia
<ashkitten>
there are some things that remind me of really awful channer memes, yk?
<ashkitten>
i'd like to stop talking about this rn
<cole-h>
Sorry.
<ashkitten>
you're fine
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<aleph->
Hmm, who was I discussing virtual machine clustering with yesterday...
<aleph->
gchristensen: Always wondered is ofborg in ref to Google Borg or directly to ST Borg?
<cole-h>
If I had to guess, it would be the ST one.
<samueldr>
star trek
<samueldr>
it was grahamc of borg, like e.g. locutus of borg
<pie_>
note that its grahams avatar with some borg hardware
<cole-h>
ye
<aleph->
Nod
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<eyJhb>
What do people use for backup with ZFS? Sanoid?
<eyJhb>
gchristensen: if you are awake :p
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<ldlework>
hello
<pie_>
eyJhb: on that note i think the sanoid module got merged recently
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<sphalerite>
eyJhb: currently using znapzend, considering moving to sanoid.
<elvishjerricco>
eyJhb: I use znapzend. With syncoid, IIRC backups can't have older snapshot histories than the source. Since my backup server has so much more capacity than my measly local 1T SSD, I wanted 1 month of snapshots locally but several years worth of biannual backups.
<eyJhb>
elvishjerricco: is that a general thing or specific to znapzend? Sounds weird that I cannot have backup on my server, that are not on my local drive
<eyJhb>
I have 256 GB SSD (x2)
<elvishjerricco>
eyJhb: Well at the ZFS level, it doesn't care how many older snapshots there are; just that the destination's latest snapshot equals the incremental source from the source system. In theory you can have newer snapshots on the source system and older snapshots on the destination system as much as you want.
<ashkitten>
wow, i'm really impressed with the p2p matrix demo
<elvishjerricco>
znapend only lets you do older snapshots on the destination; no newer snapshots on the source. And I think syncoid doesn't do either; it just makes the source and destination have the same snapshots completely
<ashkitten>
it's a proof of concept, riot bundled with dendrite compiled to webassembly with its http stack replaced by libp2p
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<ashkitten>
srhb: try and join my room, #testy:12D3KooWCu8Motz8SFVsaueZ82NcJJBg3o6xAvSXXMf6CBpJxWyU
<ashkitten>
not sure if that address will work
<ashkitten>
yeah looks like it did!
<ashkitten>
srhb: you might have to reload the page before it'll work, btw
<ashkitten>
it should skip past the signup/login thing and just dump you into riot's ui
<srhb>
ashkitten: I'll have to check it after work. Sounds really cool though!
<ashkitten>
sure :3
<ashkitten>
i'm gonna go to bed soon so the room will disappear :p
<ashkitten>
but you can create your own room and play with it
<ashkitten>
it's so exciting to see this in progress
<ashkitten>
makes me excited for dendrite to become more feature complete so in theory p2p matrix using it would be actually usable
<ashkitten>
even though it's just a technical demo/poc
<srhb>
ashkitten: Got it. Thanks! :D
<srhb>
ashkitten: (And sleep well)
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<MichaelRaskin>
ashkitten: I believe the real question is for backfill control to become more complete…
<MichaelRaskin>
(and I guess portable identities will also be needed)
<ashkitten>
wdym?
<ashkitten>
oh, so servers can be offline for long periods of time?
<MichaelRaskin>
Yes
<MichaelRaskin>
_and_ catch up in a reasonable way
<ashkitten>
and yeah they've said they want multi-home identity for this so you can have your phone be a matrix server and your laptop be a matrix server and you have the same identity on both
<ashkitten>
they seem well aware of the challenges and im excited
<MichaelRaskin>
And I guess you would still need an account on a mostly-on server, it just won't be your identity
<MichaelRaskin>
(just so that the room does not go fully offline all the time)
<JJJollyjim>
oo neat
<ashkitten>
MichaelRaskin: well theoretically if you have multiple people in the room and they each persist the room as they see it, as long as one of them is online someone new will be able to join the room and backfill messages and such
<ashkitten>
which is how matrix already works
<ashkitten>
the room only ever disappears if every node hosting it disappears
<MichaelRaskin>
True, but in a fully p2p system with no mostly-on nodes, discovery of the online members of the room is hell, and there might as well be none.
<ashkitten>
that's why they have a rendezvous server
<MichaelRaskin>
Well-known p2p systems either rely on manual scheduling of common online time (from BBS to SSB), or on having nodes with uptime competitive with modern GitHub (E2DK, torrent)
<ashkitten>
that's assuming you don't have an external well-known rendezvous server, right?
<MichaelRaskin>
No
<MichaelRaskin>
You need the _state_ to be available most of the time
<MichaelRaskin>
Otherwise you get a torrent with a working tracker and no seeders
<MichaelRaskin>
(And you can have trackerless torrents, but the question of seeders never goes away)
<ashkitten>
i guess, that's a thing they'll need to work out
<MichaelRaskin>
In a way, with portable identities and modern realities of crap NAT working out is likely to end up in a pretty forced way.
<ashkitten>
the main thing would probably be sending a mesage, closing your client, and nobody ever sees your message
<ashkitten>
that's what i would picture being a main blocker
<ashkitten>
but i trust the matrix team to figure this out
<MichaelRaskin>
Well, if you have a 3-member chat and everyone is behind different garbage NAT, you need at least a relay
<MichaelRaskin>
Like, it's not «unclear how to avoid», it's a clear need
<MichaelRaskin>
User experience will be bad if three smartphone users need to have intersecting smartphone-not-sleep-mode times to get each other's messages.
<MichaelRaskin>
Again, it's just «p2p not magic» stuff
<ashkitten>
right
<ashkitten>
we'll see
<ashkitten>
anyway bedtime
<MichaelRaskin>
I mean, there is only one thing to see there
<MichaelRaskin>
Whether these always-on room keepers will keep the backlog, or old backlog requests will take a day to resolve.
<MichaelRaskin>
(truly old)
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<pie_>
probably at least a bit more complicated than what you have there, probably simplifiable somewhat, idk, havent worked on it in a while and ive gotten a bit better since then
<pie_>
i mean, idk if its even "good" but i tried to make something
<pie_>
ok lol yes it works, its something else i was unsure about
<pie_>
it works and its terrible :D
<viric>
could it be that updating to 20.03 cleaned my /tmp ?
<cole-h>
Rebooting cleans your /tmp
<viric>
That didn't happen in 19.09
<viric>
That's quite an aggressive change
<cole-h>
What?
<viric>
isn't it?
<cole-h>
/tmp is temporary...
<viric>
temporary but I say when the time is out
<viric>
not a NixOS update
<viric>
what determines that?
<cole-h>
If it's a tmpfs, it's stored in memory. Meaning, when you reboot, it's gone, since it's volatile.
<viric>
It's not a tmpfs
<viric>
my /tmp is not tmpfs
<cole-h>
What is it, then?
<cole-h>
That indeed might be a bug, depending on what it actually is...
<viric>
same as /
<cransom>
there's an option to clean tmp dir on boot, but it's not default. `boot.cleanTmpDir`
<viric>
My /tmp has only very recent files
<viric>
I don't have any of that enabled
<cole-h>
viric: What does `df -T /tmp` say?
<viric>
root btrfs
<cole-h>
I'd say file an issue on nixpkgs, since I'm not knowledgable enough to diagnose further.
<viric>
I have a snpashot up to february and it was crowded. I don't think I have erased it
<cole-h>
But really, why store stuff in /tmp anyways...? Just seems weird to store files in a temporary (by name, at least) directory.
<cransom>
unless you can find some evidence that something nix related purged /tmp, i don't think an issue would help. nix really doesn't care about your /tmp in any interesting way other than thos eoptions.
<viric>
oldest file 25th of April... let's see if it's the 20.03 switch day
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<viric>
I'd need the timestamp information of a store path
<viric>
is there any nix command to get it from the sqlite db?
<cole-h>
20.03 was released April 20th.
<MichaelRaskin>
You can check _profile_ timestamp
<cransom>
the /nix/var/nix/profiles has timestamps
<cransom>
this is dangerously on topic for nixos-chat though.
<viric>
ah yes
<viric>
Sorry sorry
<viric>
may the 3th, 20.03. But I have files in tmp from 25th april. I have no idea what I did. I retire the accusation to nixos
<{^_^}>
#86600 (by nh2, 1 week ago, open): systemd-tmpfiles /tmp cleanup surprises applications and cannot easily be overridden
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<ornxka>
is there any thinking among nix people about applying nix flakes to individual packages? nix doesnt have a conception of "versioning", different software versions are just different nix expressions, but since software can depend on specific versions ive always thought that was something missing from nix that flakes might be in a position to provide
<__monty__>
Hmm, does flakes have any versioning outside of the rust epoch style stuff?
<viric>
emily: Damn it
<viric>
emily: thank you
<ornxka>
no but since they are git repositories it seems like you could just use the commit hash as their version
<ornxka>
or at least, this is more practical than it is for nixpkgs, where the relationship between two nix expressions which are different versions of the "same" software is much more complicated than for a nix flake of a single package
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<viric>
So /tmp in NixOS is, as of today, quicksand
<viric>
FANTASTIC
<__monty__>
viric: For any systemd-based distro aiui?
<viric>
About other distros I don't care that much :)
<__monty__>
What sort of problems is it causing though? I don't think I rely on any permanence of /tmp.
<viric>
:) why there are always people saying that about /tmp? I don't like the computer erasing any of my files whenever it wants
<cole-h>
Because /tmp literally stands for "temporary", which is impermanent by definition.
<ornxka>
huh, my /tmp got cleaned at some point recently too
<ornxka>
it had stuff in there from years ago and i kept meaning to clean it out
<ornxka>
luckily i was not keeping anything important in there :p
<viric>
/tmp is defined as whatever I want defined
<LnL>
doesn't tmp clear at boot time?
<LnL>
even without tmpfs
<ornxka>
apparently not
<viric>
temporary can be this year, this month, a placeholder where I might wipe out from time to time
<ornxka>
or, as recently as the last time i looked in there before today, it did not do that
<viric>
not whenever the random systemd clock wants
<LnL>
ah, boot.cleanTmpDir is false by default
<cole-h>
viric: That sounds more permanent the further into the future you go...
<ornxka>
i actually made a directory ~/tmp for things that i want to keep in between boots since i assumed /tmp was deleted on boot as it is in many other distributions
<viric>
cole-h: that's a terrible solution, what you claim
<ornxka>
the end result is that some things have been in there for years and years without me cleaning it out...
<__monty__>
My interpretation of temporary is you can't rely on data still being there. How long it does stay there is somewhat indeterminate. Maybe my perspective is shaped by having worked on shared systems though.
<viric>
As if it were easy to erase /tmp when I want
<viric>
I mean as if it were difficult to erase /tmp when I want
<viric>
Why would I want that automated?
<__monty__>
Why would you not? This is an equally valid opinion. Nothing that you want to keep should go in there in the first place.
<viric>
__monty__: apparently I'm sharing the disk with mr systemd now
<viric>
ornxka: what I'm surprised is that I have files there pre-20.03. I'd say this is a 20.03 change
<ornxka>
hm
<ornxka>
<viric> __monty__: apparently I'm sharing the disk with mr systemd now
<ornxka>
lol
<ornxka>
that really is how it works i guess
<ornxka>
i switched to unstable recently
<cole-h>
viric: Well, you've already been linked an issue discussing that. I don't see what good talking about it here will do (especially since it's dangerously on-topic for an off-topic chat)
<ornxka>
so im guessing for me it happened then since previous to that i was on 19.09
<viric>
I remember in the past I had /hdtmp and /tmp
<viric>
At the end /tmp is the easy ready place to share files between users
<viric>
sometimes I use /tmp as some cache for something that can be reproduced with some work that I don't want to persist.
<viric>
So as long as the files are there I don't need to reproduce the work
* srk
migrated to btrfs today
<srk>
linux 5.6 with discard=async
<ornxka>
how does it compare to zfs?
<ornxka>
does swap files work on btrfs?
<srk>
most probably
<srk>
I have some spare lvm space if swap is needed
<tokudan>
viric, though nixos doesn't really follow FHS that well, due to its limitations, the /tmp and /var/tmp are basically FHS compliant in nixos
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<gchristensen>
"hoping they could stop the leak with a temporary metal fitting known as a 'clamp'"
<ashkitten>
does btrfs have something to match zfs's volumes?
<ashkitten>
actually, does btrfs let you have nested filesystems like zfs?
<ashkitten>
i don't know anything about it
<gchristensen>
you could make a zvol and put btrfs on it to find out :o
<ashkitten>
lol
<ashkitten>
true
<ashkitten>
i don't really wanna mess with that rn
<ashkitten>
i'd want to test out btrfs on a real device i actually use, but i don't have one that's not critically important
<__monty__>
I'm not very familiar with zfs but I don't think btrfs has zvols.
<__monty__>
Its volumes and subvolumes are like datasets and nested datasets afaict.
<viric>
tokudan: NixOS does what systemd shoved in to do
<viric>
debian & ubuntu apparently patched systemd in resistance
<emily>
imo, files in /tmp being temporary is really not the hill you want to die on
<gchristensen>
eh?
<emily>
systemd has a lot of odd policy decisions but that one seems completely normal to me
<emily>
(though it deleting files from underneath services not at boot like described in the issue is suboptimal)
<emily>
gchristensen: re viric
<gchristensen>
ahh
<viric>
I hate systemd in many aspects.
<viric>
It is one more :)
<ashkitten>
viric: maybe you can help make nixos process manager agnostic
<samueldr>
before it becomes *that discussion* again, please, don't nip improvement attempts in the bud, they try to improve things because they care... and also, people, this is not a trivial change, and working on it may be unfruitful and see pushback
<gchristensen>
<3 samueldr
<{^_^}>
samueldr's karma got increased to 227
<samueldr>
but more power to trying to do great things :)
<ashkitten>
fwiw samueldr i don't dislike systemd
<gchristensen>
thanks for the reminder samueldr
<samueldr>
definitey wasn't aimed at anyone particular, but that discussion often leads to abrupt "no nixos is built with systemd so don't even care" message (that I have overamplified)
<samueldr>
and for the record, I hope no one has a 100% dark or bright opinion about such a huge behemoth that systemd is, so I'm sure no one "entirely likes" or "entirely dislikes" it, and it's probably good
<samueldr>
it means there's room for improvement
<ashkitten>
my goal is to run nixos on other kernels besides linux, is the main thing
<MichaelRaskin>
I do have a 100% opinion that systemd is too large a monolith for my interactive-use systems.
<samueldr>
MichaelRaskin: see, that's not "systemd bad" or "systemd gud", but "systemd is too big for me", which is a somewhat nuanced opinion!
<MichaelRaskin>
It does fit two (very frequent) usecases pretty well
<samueldr>
I definitely hope someone attempts to untangle systemd, if only to better expose where it lies inside NixOS, even if NixOS proper isn't planning to support an alternative
<MichaelRaskin>
I also think that boiling down computer use to these two usecases is the worst thing that happens to computing (although the use cases themselves are kind of natural)
<samueldr>
(if it even is tangled)
<ashkitten>
i don't know that systemd is inextricably tangled with nixos, really
* colemickens
wonders how much "extra work" supporting Shepherd is for Guix.
<samueldr>
last I heard I think they weren't anymore? but I'm definitely not a source
<ashkitten>
it's just that nixos modules currently use the systemd module directly, so it would involve creating an abstract process manager module interface and changing things to use that
<ashkitten>
i just haven't gotten around to working on that
<viric>
ashkitten: I'm not annoyed enough I'm afraid
<ashkitten>
oh well
<viric>
(thank you btrfs snapshots for keeping most of my /tmp)
<MichaelRaskin>
I am annoyed enough, but I just ditched NixOS boot sequence and wrote my own scripts
<ashkitten>
MichaelRaskin: do you use nixos modules for services?
<MichaelRaskin>
Half-ish
<ashkitten>
also, what process manager do you use?
<viric>
aka init
<MichaelRaskin>
sinit
<MichaelRaskin>
Because service supervision is overrated.
<ashkitten>
lol
<viric>
looong ago I wrote a cross-buildable OS built with nix, and it used busybox init
<viric>
MichaelRaskin: what is sinit?
<MichaelRaskin>
I moved on from a sh as PID1 because reaping unrelated zombies is strictly speaking a good idea
<MichaelRaskin>
suckless init
<viric>
ah ok
<MichaelRaskin>
I do not like _all_ things suckless
<MichaelRaskin>
But for PID1 I want something simple
<viric>
I only use dwm+dmenu
<MichaelRaskin>
dwm meh, WM is actually what I want bloated
<MichaelRaskin>
So StumpWM with a ton of custom code
<viric>
:)
<ashkitten>
i would probably be interested in trying suckless software if the actual developers werent fascists
<viric>
In fact I patch dwm so it looks and behaves like 5 years ago at least
<MichaelRaskin>
One of the things that ESR said well (again, I do not like _all_ ESR writings) is that thing about decision leverage.
<viric>
who is ESR?
<MichaelRaskin>
Raymond
<MichaelRaskin>
And Window Manager is pretty much deciding what and where and how I see on my screen
<viric>
that of the cathedral &...?
<MichaelRaskin>
So I want to encode what I _want_ it to do with a lot of flexibility for me
<MichaelRaskin>
Yes
<drakonis>
yes that guy
<drakonis>
colemickens: admittedly shepherd is interesting
<MichaelRaskin>
As for my services, I have a total of around ten I guess
<drakonis>
because of how ~hackable~ it is
<MichaelRaskin>
I do not have even non-PID1 systemd instances.
<drakonis>
but it lacks a lot of the scaffolding nix modules has grown over the years
<MichaelRaskin>
OpenSSH services is exported from NixOS by NixOS included feature, runnerScript
<viric>
tbh nixos without modules was easier
<MichaelRaskin>
I think module system has too much, hm, vertical span
<MichaelRaskin>
A bit more should be done in normal Nix functions, and module system should play the role similar to nix-env -iA
<viric>
modules are so complicated.
<cole-h>
Could you expand on that? I'm still somewhat new to the module system (and Nix in general, really).
<MichaelRaskin>
If waht you want is described «and now I want to also get this», these are useful
<MichaelRaskin>
But if you want more encapsulation in your system, maybe it's nice to have other options
<viric>
modules are an exercise on nix
<viric>
Oh how I hate bash fancy completion
<drakonis>
colemickens: it isn't a lot of effort because they have fairly simplistic services
<viric>
does anybody know how to make nixos not add the fancy bash completion?
<MichaelRaskin>
So I pass a very minimal config to NixOS to evaluate openssh runner script. I also generate xorg.conf but write the starter from scratch. eudev is just some manual script.
<viric>
"programs.bash.enableCompletion" "Enable Bash completion for all interactive bash shells." what a biased description
<viric>
That means github.com/scop/bash-completion, not "Bash completion"
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<ashkitten>
the shell nixos modules are awful imo
<ashkitten>
the zsh one sticks you with its RPROMPT, i don't think there's a way to disable that
<ashkitten>
but if you don't use the zsh module you don't get command-not-found hook
<viric>
I don't doubt some people like them. Fine.
<viric>
After using bash for >20 years with regular completion... I expect the regular completion and get frustrated if I don't get it.
<viric>
I'm too old to change these things
<ashkitten>
hm, i want a hdmi capture card and magewell sells ones that work with v4l2 but i don't have the money for that
<ashkitten>
their official resellers don't actually list the price of the products
<ashkitten>
they want you to email them to find out how much they cost
<ashkitten>
which concerns me
<cole-h>
"If you have to ask, it's too much."
<ashkitten>
yeah
<ashkitten>
i just want a capture card that works with linux, is that too much to ask
<joepie91>
ah yes, the famous pricepoint of "request quote"
<cole-h>
Betteridge's Law :D
<cole-h>
(vaguely)
<cole-h>
Or rather, opposite of Betteridge's Law
<ashkitten>
doesn't help that listings on ebay and amazon are like $400+
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<lovesegfault>
Do I get some medal by merging a PR that rebuilds every single package in nixpkgs? :P
<cole-h>
Well, I think you've gotten two now (even if it was later reverted), so you should get two medals!
<lovesegfault>
:D
<joepie91>
you'll just have to wait for the medal to build... it's sitting at the back of the Hydra queue...
<joepie91>
:P
<cole-h>
lmao
<lovesegfault>
133k builds in the hydra queue rn
<cole-h>
FRidh must be a sadist, abusing hydra just as it was ~60k queued
<cole-h>
:D
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<worldofpeace>
gchristensen: could you op me for nixos-gm channel?
<gchristensen>
I can but you can too
<gchristensen>
/msg chanserv op #nixos-gm worldofpeace
<gchristensen>
did that do it, worldofpeace?
<ldlework>
is that really something that needs to be an official channel of a functional package manager?
<cole-h>
What's the gm channel? General Motors? :P
* ldlework
is a bit creeped out.
<qyliss>
cole-h: gender minorities
<gchristensen>
ldlework: yes, it is useful for Gender Minorities to choose to congregate if they'd like to, in a space reserved for them if they want to.
<cole-h>
Ah, understood. I was thinking more like "general managers" :P
<cole-h>
Thanks
<ldlework>
i didn't know it stood for that, as I just read the topic
<gchristensen>
aye :)
<ldlework>
to wit, my question still stands
<gchristensen>
as does my answer
<cole-h>
Or maybe it stands for G-minor
<ldlework>
nixos needs to provide a place for anti-capitalism?
<gchristensen>
it is their space to do with it as they choose
<ldlework>
then what exactly does it have to do with the project?
<ldlework>
will there be other such channels?
<gchristensen>
it is a group of members of the project, congregating as project members
<worldofpeace>
our time, gonna spend it how we want to spend it. residual energy reamplified, a love
<qyliss>
ldlework: if the channel is not for you could you please leave it?
<ldlework>
i didn't express anything like that, i am confused about the association with the project is all
<gchristensen>
there could be other channels like it, as long as those other channels are furthering the goals of welcomeness, warmth, and inclusion
<cole-h>
They are associated with the project because its members are associated with the project.
<ldlework>
cole-h: i hear the answer, it's all i was looking for
<ldlework>
fuck captialism and bastards is a strange rendering of welcomness, warmth and inclusion though
<gchristensen>
heh
<gchristensen>
ldlework: it is useful for people who are devalued / discriminated against to be able to be together in a place just for them, as a means of support for each other
<ldlework>
sure, anyone can start a channel on freenode for any purpose, i was asking about what it had to do with nixos
<ldlework>
thanks for answering
<gchristensen>
cool :) yep
<ashkitten>
ldlework: i don't see why you have to comment on how we use our space, if it's not meant for you