<colemickens>
cole-h: another stdenv experiment in the making ? :)
<cole-h>
lol I don't have the (spare) braincells for that
<cole-h>
but it would certainly be cool...
<samueldr>
I wonder if it helps those big builds like Firefox
<samueldr>
those that run out of address space on 32 bit
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<colemickens>
welp, compact is gone from nightly
<colemickens>
they did it
<colemickens>
good for them I guess
<samueldr>
hm?
<colemickens>
firefox proton is removing support for compact mode
<samueldr>
ah, the toolbar density?
<samueldr>
I don't get why they'd change that though
<colemickens>
yeah, and/or tab bar density is more what seems to hog vertical space
<colemickens>
I don't either. In "beta" on windows, compact is still supported and it looks/works great
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<colemickens>
they hid the preference in some spot no one would ever look and then said its usage was low enough to eliminate
<colemickens>
I'm sure I'll forget in two weeks. I really like Proton otherwise.
<samueldr>
sometimes it feels firefox strives in spite of their best efforts :/
<samueldr>
within power users
<colemickens>
I wish I had any other choice, they've done some fairly distasteful things that I feel are glossed over because "theyre not google" (which is true, and valid, but not the whole story)
<samueldr>
web browsers getting to be more complex than PDF readers, which themselves are more complex than operating systems, that pretty implies you can't build a new one :(
<samueldr>
did you know that PDF has fun features like full 3D support in the spec?
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<samueldr>
I don't know why (oh, I know why), but I feel sometimes the work of "integration" is often undervalued
<samueldr>
e.g. compare someone that "just" assembles working pieces together into a nice user friendly package, vs. someone that actively contributes to one of said pieces
<aleph->
PDF needs to die finally
<aleph->
Please
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<cole-h>
what should it be replaced by?
<samueldr>
raw TIFF from a fax subsystem
<cole-h>
lol
<samueldr>
I think many want to see the predecessor to PDF being used, postscript
<gchristensen>
I'm about to replace my websites with just a single hand-made PDF from InDesign
<samueldr>
sometimes I wonder if "display postscript" was more of a thing in the past how the world would look like today
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<siraben>
cole-h: replace PDF with TeX, obviously
<gchristensen>
lol
<cole-h>
oh no
<cole-h>
TeX is powerful but I sooooooo hate writing it
<aleph->
But yeah know, PDF internals are horrifying. As is parsing them.
<aleph->
yeah no*
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<abathur>
if I *had* to be the presiding tyrant of some techno-dystopia, I suspect I'd use "censorship" as an excuse to ~ban typesetting tools that allow the user to format anything with imperative style overrides
<infinisil>
cole-h: I recently had to cut and join two pdf pages together into a single page
<infinisil>
Decided to use latex for that
<infinisil>
Yeah, big mistake
<infinisil>
I ended up managing it
<infinisil>
After like 2 hours
<infinisil>
One of the conditions I had was that the size would not be distorted
<infinisil>
But then when I went to print it, it came out the wrong size after all..
<siraben>
adisbladis: oh yeah, when I don't need the full power of tex I do it in org
<ldlework>
org is the way
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<siraben>
ldlework: though for more typesetting-specific things it falls short, sadly
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<Ke>
so in the end you installed Microsoft windows and used paint to generate the document as bmp image, like normal people do
<Ke>
I did not even look at the problem description before knowing, paint is the right tool for the job
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<eyJhb>
pie_: Something something very much JWT (most common I think?). But base64('{alg:"}') basically :D
<eyJhb>
Also, there is some more "hidden" meaning, if you know my real name :D
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<Mic92>
fun fact: loki breaks if you don't have an interface called eth0 or ens1
<Mic92>
probably no one uses this outside of docker i guess
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<andi->
docker makes software development so much easier! :D No more worrying about interface names. Nobody needs "predictable interfaces" if there is only one! :D
<srhb>
andi-: I'm trying really hard not to take the bait xD
<srhb>
I guess it really isn't docker's fault, but I'm so frustrated with all the random repos that now have a `make build` thing that just grabs arbitrary container images and does all kinds of magic and good luck if you ever want to disentangle this.
<srhb>
(OK, I took the bait. Meh.)
<andi->
docker containers as a distribution/bundle aren't bad but all the other stuff is not great IMO
<{^_^}>
grafana/loki#2645 (by arl, 32 weeks ago, merged): Tests: fix issue 2356: distributor_test.go fails when the system has no interface name in [eth0, en0, lo0]
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<hodapp>
I look at Docker more as... a giant software diaper.
<hodapp>
Sometimes, software just needs diapers. However, designing software from day 1 under the principle of "shit everywhere, because there's Docker there!" is...... less than optimal.
<ldlework>
If I regularly use Docker as a workaround to Nix does that mean Nix is incontinent? :D
<hodapp>
Yes.
<__monty__>
More like inconvenient. Since it's not nix you put in the container probably?
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<gchristensen>
I can't figure this out, I have a command like + nix-shell ./importer/shell.nix --run "cat next/import | sort > next/import.sorted" and in CI in produces a differently sorted output than locally
<gchristensen>
oooh is this a locale thing
<__monty__>
Does sound like LC_COLLATE
<gchristensen>
the environment was a mistake :)
<__monty__>
Hmm, so we're against the environment? Burn all the trees!
<MichaelRaskin>
Given that we all know that without environment things would read things in fixed paths in ~ without non-absurd ways to override…
<__monty__>
Ok, HOME and that's it.
<MichaelRaskin>
OneIsNotANumber
<MichaelRaskin>
Sorry, OneIsAnImpossibleNumber
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<pie_>
eyJhb: eyyy lmao
<eyJhb>
Suuuuup pie_ :p
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<philipp[m]>
Seems like spacex is trying another starship hop today.
<gchristensen>
neato
<MichaelRaskin>
Well… I think The Mary has not yet got evacuation request?
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<MichaelRaskin>
Berkshire Hathaway refusing to split shares and hitting the fixed-decimal-point 32-bit limit is amusing…
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<hodapp>
shit, I better sell all 100 of my shares
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<samueldr>
sometimes I tell myself I'm lucky I can't just easily get some silly devices due to my geographical disadvantage
<hodapp>
devices?
<samueldr>
phones
<samueldr>
tablets
<samueldr>
anything I could accidentally run Mobile NixOS on
<cransom>
"accidentally"
<samueldr>
a port can happen so quickly
<hodapp>
how does one accidentally run NixOS?
<hodapp>
it's not like it's Bonzi Buddy
<samueldr>
accidentally on purpose
<MichaelRaskin>
OK, with village cleared SpaceX is serious about today… (might still back out, of course, but chance of hop grows)
<gchristensen>
neat
<gchristensen>
what's the potential timeline?
<MichaelRaskin>
Come on, they have not yet reached «pad cleared»
<gchristensen>
lol
<MichaelRaskin>
And the weather looks… so-so
<MichaelRaskin>
I think it's hard to talk about timeline before cryogenic work starts
<MichaelRaskin>
Like they can be checking one more last thing for a couple of hours
<gchristensen>
ah
<gchristensen>
oh right this is all people with long cameras trying to intuit whats up
<MichaelRaskin>
Well
<MichaelRaskin>
Long cameras and apparently some leaks from the teams
<gchristensen>
ah
<MichaelRaskin>
But like, «Graham, how long would it take to fix that bug» before you started localising
<MichaelRaskin>
I expect you will have some words for me. Kindly explaining why estimates don't really work that way.
<gchristensen>
:D
<samueldr>
it's easy
<samueldr>
just send the rocket up
<samueldr>
then down
<MichaelRaskin>
They tried it a few times
<MichaelRaskin>
It somewhat worked, but not well enough
<samueldr>
the joke is "just", that word you use if you want to make it seem the developer is "just" not doing the easy thing
<samueldr>
"just" align the text with the image
<samueldr>
oh "just" sort the users by proximity
<MichaelRaskin>
gchristensen: actually, not even only long cameras! Some cameras allowed by Elon Musk into the blast radius, too
<gchristensen>
ah neat
<gchristensen>
one time my cousin found himself in the blast radius by mistake ...
<gchristensen>
within the radius of a deadly soundwave
<gchristensen>
(or at least significantly damaging? not sure exatly)
<MichaelRaskin>
Ouch
<MichaelRaskin>
I mean, was there the soundwave at the time?
<gchristensen>
luckily no
<MichaelRaskin>
Ah, so potential
<gchristensen>
some unhappy people with guns and boats "helped" him leave
<MichaelRaskin>
samueldr: I think Musk actively tries to project that SpaceX does try «just» doing the thing, whatever the thing is. Then … then there is some fallout to learn from
<MichaelRaskin>
Yeah, one of the hops had some truck driver getting a ticket under the watch of a few of the NSF cameras for going deep into the closed zone
<gchristensen>
oh yeah
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<MichaelRaskin>
I guess right now Elon Musk is personally keeping track of the hope preparation and is not yet sure what time the ignition will happen
<MichaelRaskin>
I guess what keeps people from betting on Long March core stage reentry is unclarity how to resolve the bets in the most likely case
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<philipp[m]>
Can I bet on SN15 being hit by the Long March booster in flight?
<gchristensen>
#idlerpg getting topical "19:38 <@IdleBot> tms fell ill because their community continues to disregard mask mandates. This terrible calamity has slowed them 0 days, 01:13:07 from level 64."
<MichaelRaskin>
philipp[m]: That sounds unlikely now… because LM should reenter on the weekend
<MichaelRaskin>
And SN15 reached pad clear
<MichaelRaskin>
at least
<philipp[m]>
I hope hop today.
<eyJhb>
Is there ANY place to exchange cryptocoins + buy (in the EU), that does not require my drivers license and a direct picture of my face?
<gchristensen>
probabl ynot
<gchristensen>
KYC is robust and universal
<eyJhb>
Know your customer?
<gchristensen>
yea
<samueldr>
kentucky yeeted chicken
<eyJhb>
^ Was what I tohught samueldr
<eyJhb>
thought*
<eyJhb>
But it just seems sketchy as hell. But at least it is not home-made.. It uses onfido
<eyJhb>
Which seems OK?
<gchristensen>
if it feels sketchy ...
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<eyJhb>
I have been researching for 2-3 hours now
<eyJhb>
Everything feels sketchy.
<eyJhb>
:p
<gchristensen>
I agree
<eyJhb>
Question is, if one should just.. Do it
<eyJhb>
Can I mine them instead?! :D
<ashkitten>
ugh cryptoshit
<ashkitten>
eyJhb: why do you need proof-of-environmental-harm tokens anyways
<hodapp>
every time I read the justifications from cryptobros I want to exit humanity
<hodapp>
every time someone points out the environmental harm: "oh yeah, as if it takes no energy whatsoever to keep centralized fiat money systems working"
<ashkitten>
yeah and i wanna get rid of those too
<ashkitten>
lol
<hodapp>
"this was mined in an area where they *have* to have this load on the grid or there can be other problems"
<hodapp>
"it's fine, because they paid for the power"
<ashkitten>
we could just get rid of capitalism, that would solve all the problems
<eyJhb>
ashkitten: I am not saying it justifies it. But the power in DK is some of the most expensive in the entire fucking world because of the green tax. I would rather pay more, than upload my ID + Face
<eyJhb>
It wouldn't be worth it mining... :)
<ashkitten>
you havent said why you need the environmental harm tokens
<ashkitten>
unless it's a private matter i suppose
<eyJhb>
I want to get in on the hype! And because I have contemplated it for too long...
<ashkitten>
no
<ashkitten>
hype bad
<eyJhb>
damn :(
<ashkitten>
like i said: environmental harm tokens
<ashkitten>
cryptoshit doesn't help anyone
<ashkitten>
i don't know why you would pay to get on the bandwagon of bullshit but don't
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<hodapp>
there's a kid at the hackerspace, 15 years old or so, who is quite smart with electronics and programming buuuut has lately become obsessed with crypto shit
<pie_>
economics is a helluva drug
<samueldr>
the promises of a get rich quick scam is also a helluva drug
<gchristensen>
I wouldn't mind
<samueldr>
gchristensen: I can sell you a rock, it keeps the tigers away
<samueldr>
since you apparently don't mind scams :)
<pie_>
also im pretty sure an overwhelming amount of environmental harm is actually not due to individual contributions
<hodapp>
the most speculation that I do is to buy some SPX put options dated 2-3 months away and deep out-of-the-money
<hodapp>
it's kinda like insurance
<pie_>
s/pretty sure/moderately hypothesized/
<pie_>
but yeah maybe small countriesworths of power usage for heat-death-of-the-universe is not the best idea
<__monty__>
I vaguely remember a little online RPG where you either use vim bindings or program your character using javascript. Does this ring any bells?
<samueldr>
__monty__: vim adventures?
<eyJhb>
I am impressed my brother is not more mad. He had 10+ BTC sold at 1000 USD each.. +250000 dogecoins, sold at.. nothing.
<__monty__>
samueldr: Yep, looks like that was it. Anyone know of a "Learn programming while playing a game" game though?
<samueldr>
TIS-1000?
<samueldr>
100*
<samueldr>
but probably not what you have in mind :)
<__monty__>
Hmm, couple more constraints: online, free and for 12-14yos.
<samueldr>
no
<samueldr>
;)
<samueldr>
not a game, but scratch is now working (again) on the web
<samueldr>
maybe there's something using scratch as a foundation that might be closer to your needs?
<samueldr>
hmmm... something about robots
<ashkitten>
theres a neat programming game called screeps
<ashkitten>
i used to play around with that some
<samueldr>
nope, can't find something like what I think exists, but other things when searching "online coding scratch robots"
<samueldr>
or uh, programming
<samueldr>
and not all of them actually uses scratch
<__monty__>
I'm looking for something as a transition from scratch to writing boring code.
<srk>
lego mindstorms is fun as well
<__monty__>
Yeah we have those but due to Covid the Coderdojos are videoconferencing rn.
<MichaelRaskin>
OOps, pad reopen [SN15]
<samueldr>
what does "pad reopen" mean?
<samueldr>
no launch?
<MichaelRaskin>
People coming back to the launch pad to perform some work.
<MichaelRaskin>
No launch soon, may fix something and try later.
<samueldr>
right, so at the very least: "not now" :)
<MichaelRaskin>
Oh, that was quick
<MichaelRaskin>
(pad clearing out again)
<samueldr>
they launched? ;_
<samueldr>
;)*
<MichaelRaskin>
Very no
<MichaelRaskin>
Fueling takes a better part of an hour
<ashkitten>
someone named "systemd is good" asking for a project stance on controversial topics? smells like troll
<MichaelRaskin>
A pretty lazy troll though
<ashkitten>
we've even had discussions here about that stuff
<MichaelRaskin>
Wouldnt't expect such a discussion to convince anyone, not even bystanders
<ashkitten>
eh, it goes either way depending who is willing to listen and engage
<ashkitten>
some people here are more willing to do so than others
<ashkitten>
i know i've been able to educate people about certain social issues in this channel
<MichaelRaskin>
You need to find someone actually willing to read through that and say something they have not yet seen a dozen times
<MichaelRaskin>
(The specific issues had pretty large blast radius)
<ashkitten>
sure. and it works better for some topics where their preconception isn't so strong
<MichaelRaskin>
Althought it is true that it took some time for me to stumble upon people explaining Stallman's anti-unionisation efforts at FSF
<MichaelRaskin>
(Which is actually more convincing argument about his being on board than most of the mutual-misquoting war)
<ashkitten>
that is definitely a different angle to approach it from
<philipp[m]>
On the totally not controversial topic of billionaires playing with their expensive toys that might make them trillionaires: We have recondenser activity.
<ashkitten>
recondenser what
<MichaelRaskin>
Indeed.
<MichaelRaskin>
Recondenser activity is a well-observable part of SpaceX launch preparation
<ashkitten>
oh
<ashkitten>
i audibly gagged when you said "trillionaire"
<ashkitten>
but space stuff is neat i guess
<MichaelRaskin>
I respect Musk's things, especially SpaceX, because well, it is a rare case of following the normally-complete-fairy-tale about how capitalists allegedely behave.
<ashkitten>
i mean, if the fairy tale is about an evil gremlin with lots of money taking credit for other people's hard work
<ashkitten>
wait that is just capitalism in a nutshell nvm
<MichaelRaskin>
The fairy tale includes at least pretending to understand the content of the work he is taking credit for, and also betting appreciable part of money previously grabbed on some impressive project.
<ashkitten>
i agree that some of the things he's put money towards are worthwhile
<ashkitten>
i don't give anyone kudos for lobbing any amount of money that isn't personally impactful
<ashkitten>
(which to be clear that is not)
<MichaelRaskin>
Well, at some point early on he did lob personally impactful amounts of money.
<hodapp>
ashkitten: what's funny is that the bible even says something about this
<hodapp>
but the sorts of people that love to cite the bible tend not to mention it
<ashkitten>
personally impactful as in it had a notable effect on his lifestyle?
<ashkitten>
if he's not bringing his bank account down to a normal human level i don't care
<pie_>
thats bad risk management
<ashkitten>
don't care
<MichaelRaskin>
I am pretty sure he did previously bring his personal net worth outside SpaceX and Tesla below the price of the house he previously owned but solved.
<MichaelRaskin>
(Back when SpaceX and Tesla were risky bets)
<ashkitten>
that is conceivably something but otoh he's still making shitloads of money he doesn't need from the labor of others
<ashkitten>
like... he has frivolous amounts of wealth and his workers have... a living wage i hear? idk how much a tesla or spacex laborer makes but it's not as much as elon who is doing none of the work
<ashkitten>
note: this doesn't make him different from any other ceo
<MichaelRaskin>
Well, specifically in this case saying «none» is an overstatement.
<ashkitten>
sure
<MichaelRaskin>
Unlike most other CEOs
<ashkitten>
in any case he is doing an amount of labor that does not befit the wealth he accumulates from it
<hodapp>
My thing is also that these expenditures/investments can't be taken relative to nothing - they have to be taken relative to how the wealth might have been applied had it resided elsewhere
<MichaelRaskin>
Pretty sure you could just painfully kill Apple CEO and Apple would fare no worse… wait, they tried and that's what has happenned
<hodapp>
and there can be a fetish to calling someone a 'job creator' and ignore that he may simply be controlling jobs
<hodapp>
more than creating them
<ashkitten>
from what i've heard, tesla working conditions are extremely harsh even though the wage is decent, so the turnover rate is high
<MichaelRaskin>
Well, in case of SpaceX there was a question of finding a person crazy enough to bet on the first company to try that.
<ashkitten>
wouldn't it be cool if tesla was a co-op and the workers could decide to make big decisions like that that impact them all?
<MichaelRaskin>
In this specific chat this question does sound ironic, of course
<ashkitten>
instead of one dude betting "his" company (consisting of thousands of laborers that have no say) on a venture
<ashkitten>
again, not specifically about elon musk. this is a criticism of capitalism in general
<ashkitten>
i don't want to come across like i don't hate other ceos as much :)
<MichaelRaskin>
Yeah, I say that Elon Musk is the rare case where a capitalist lives up to what capitalism uses as self-description. Yeah, good and bad.
<MichaelRaskin>
Which is why I respect him more than Bezos or something.
<ashkitten>
honestly all capitalists are basically the same to me
<ashkitten>
lots of people talk highly of philanthropists but to me that just means someone that's picking and choosing who is deserving of financial aid
<__monty__>
Afaict it's a difference in marketing. Musk likes to come across as being personally involved in stuff. I have my doubts as to how much of his success he really had a hand in.
<philipp[m]>
Also many philanthropists aren't great at giving away money and continue to get richer and richer.
<MichaelRaskin>
__monty__: well, even for faking the signal Musk sends he would need to keep better track of what's happening on the technical level than is the default expectation. Most likely he does make some technical calls.
<MichaelRaskin>
The quality of those calls is probably less relevant than them being made, if they were not coin-tosses either way, they wouldn't end up as calls for him to make.
<MichaelRaskin>
(… as long as there is some level of connection to reality)
<__monty__>
That's kinda what I mean though. Some people think he's some genius and no one else could've done what he has and continues to. But I doubt these rockets wouldn't fly just as well without him.
<infinisil>
,launch
<{^_^}>
Ping for space stuff (edit this command to add yourself, see ",help"): infinisil Taneb ldlework etu philipp[m] eyJhb gchristensen __red__ red red[evilred] risson aaronjanse
<MichaelRaskin>
__monty__: nobody would bet on them being built, though
<infinisil>
Starship SN15!
<__monty__>
But that's only a consequence of the system.
<MichaelRaskin>
Also, for that pace you need someone making cointoss calls, and you need these people respected by the technical people — which is far from given
<MichaelRaskin>
In any system, by the way
<philipp[m]>
So rolling is a good trick after all?
<MichaelRaskin>
Rolling?
<philipp[m]>
Oh, I was talking about what was being said on that sream.
<{^_^}>
T-3:30 minutes: Ping for space stuff (edit this command to add yourself, see ",help"): infinisil Taneb ldlework etu philipp[m] eyJhb gchristensen __red__ red red[evilred] risson aaronjanse
<aaronjanse>
Thank you infinisil!
<MichaelRaskin>
Last time they messed up the translation announcement it ended in a scrub
<MichaelRaskin>
(they did announce it on @SpaceX twitter this time, though)
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<aaronjanse>
Watching 3 streams right now. Hype
<infinisil>
Only just got the spacex being live notification now
<infinisil>
T-1 minute!
<philipp[m]>
Excitement!
<infinisil>
Damn EA is no far ahead!
<infinisil>
30 seconds!
<samueldr>
what a spoiler
<risson>
and liftoff!
<risson>
damn lots of clouds
<MichaelRaskin>
I get ~30s diff NSF vs SpaceX… when NSF retranslates SpaceX and stays ahead…
<MichaelRaskin>
Networking is such networking
<risson>
you mean notworking
<MichaelRaskin>
It is working! Just weirdly
<__monty__>
SpaceX/NSF frozen for anyone else?
<infinisil>
The internet is at the brink of barely working
<samueldr>
frozen but time counting up
<samueldr>
so
<philipp[m]>
That's a long video feed break...
<MichaelRaskin>
__monty__: that's almost normal
<gchristensen>
aliens
<MichaelRaskin>
Maybe first Starlink test on a flying rocket did not go perfectly
<philipp[m]>
Ther was like a second of video feed just now