gchristensen changed the topic of #nixos-chat to: NixOS but much less topical || https://logs.nix.samueldr.com/nixos-chat
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<__red__> So, we migrating to #nix:nixos.org ?
<__red__> apparently the version of matrix-synapse in nixpkgs doesn't support spaces yet?
<gchristensen> ummm
<{^_^}> #123373 (by TredwellGit, 2 days ago, merged): element: 1.7.27 -> 1.7.28
<gchristensen> I think it is about to hit nixos-unstable
<hexa-> everything required has been merged into stable
<hexa-> element: 1.27 -> 1.28 for 20.09
<{^_^}> #123701 (by mweinelt, 9 hours ago, merged): [20.09] matrix-synapse: 1.33.2 -> 1.34.0
<gchristensen> nice
<hexa-> plase also see https://matrix.org/blog/2021/05/17/synapse-1-34-0-released for the experimental flag for spaces
<hexa-> it amounts to something like
<hexa-> extraConfig = ''
<hexa-> experimental_features: { spaces_enabled: true }
<hexa-> '';
<{^_^}> spaces defined
<gchristensen> oops
<__red__> thanks
<gchristensen> ^ if anyone is inclined to make this factoid more useful ... please do :)
<__red__> when I pulled unstable, I got 1.33.2
<__red__> I'll try again
<gchristensen> I think it isn't in the channel yet
<__red__> ah, that'll do it
<__red__> It's apparently doing some kind of batch update from the last update anyways
<__red__> I should probably wait until that is done before I do the next upgrade anyways
<__red__> "chain_cover"
<__red__> whatever that is
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<elvishjerricco> Anyone starting to get some spam on freenode tonight?
<aleph-> Eyep
<elvishjerricco> What was the workaround last time? Something about ignoring unregistered users?
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<sorear> I just /mode sorear +g
<elvishjerricco> +R is what I was thinking of
<waleee-cl> html + js spam messages was a new touch
<samueldr> maybe they know of a 0day in a specific client
<samueldr> though oh unlikely
<samueldr> ,matrix btw in case people missed it
<{^_^}> btw in case people missed it: https://matrix.to/#/#community:nixos.org or #nix:nixos.org
<colemickens> weird, I'm in two nix spaces, one shows all the rooms I'm in and the other doesnt?
<colemickens> oh the new nix space is for native matrix rooms I guess and the other is old plumbed freenode rooms, got it
<colemickens> wait are the new/old nixos-chat not bridged? I guess its in progress probably
<samueldr> I don't think there's plans for bridging with IRC; for the time it's all native
<V> eyJhb: yep :)
<bqv> ;_;
<V> [22:19] <@gchristensen> afaik running a homeserver is very expensive, resource wise <- it is, hence I will not be joining you there
<bqv> I'm disappointed in this outcome
<V> It's upsetting that yet another inaccessible platform was chosen over this
<V> I'll be on Libera
<samueldr> how does using an IRC server differs from using an homeserver you don't self-host?
<V> samueldr: The resource requirements for running a bouncer and a homeserver are very very different
<samueldr> you don't need to run a bouncer to keep a presence on matrix
<V> Relying on someone else's server kind of defeats the entire point of decentralisation, no?
<V> Since that's the main thing being espoused here
<V> Additionally, I'd have to figure out how to use yet another chat platform, or set up bitlbee or a bridge or something
<samueldr> I really started with the honest intention of hearing your thoughts, but now I'll answer in a terrible way
<samueldr> "since a decentralized platform isn't perfect let's instead use a centralized platform elsehwere"?
<samueldr> ah, yeah, clients situation is a bit sad :/
<V> Ah, but the difference here is that I actually trust the people at Libera
<samueldr> but I don't think depicting it as being inaccessible is fair considering
<V> I know they're competent and I trust the network to be in good hands
<V> It's inaccessible to *me*
<V> That's inaccessible, whether it is to you or not
<samueldr> >> [01:20:43] <V> It's upsetting that yet another inaccessible platform was chosen over this
<samueldr> I read this as "generally inaccessible"
<samueldr> (I hate how read and read are written the same)
<samueldr> (past tense read here)
<ldlework> why can't my client be a server for everything that's mine and we use the domain system to friend graph p2p federation
<samueldr> I think that's what parts of matrix is evolving to be, but I'm in no way a matrix connaisseur
<samueldr> so I couldn't say for sure
<V> samueldr: Either I will have to run some kind of web client, plausibly some kind of web-based desktop client, or figure out how to run a bridge. *and* I have to figure out who to trust re homeserver because NixOS isn't making theirs open and the software is unusable to anyone without the resources
<samueldr> really the fact that the homeserver situation is still so bad saddens me too :(
<ldlework> matrix could be driven by recently discovered alien technology and I wouldn't use it because the user experience is just not great
<V> Does this sound more convincing?
<samueldr> V: I didn't need to be convinced :) you do you, I wanted to hear your thoughts
<V> With an IRC client you can literally just plug in the network name and channel into hexchat, and start talking. It'll pick a sane username from your login, and you can just start talking. Immediately
<V> If a network has webchat, you don't even need to install a client!
<samueldr> yeah, I definitely prefer IRC too, but I go where the community goes here
<V> Well, I'm going to Libera :)
<bqv> Xmpp is closer to what id have wanted matrix to be someday, and more. I got over my xmlphobia and tried it, it's wonderful. Only flaw is singledigit userbase
<V> This'll just produce fragmentation
<V> bqv: yeah, same
<samueldr> and I much rather follow with matrix than running the risk of people going (more) into discord
<V> I'm intending on setting up an XMPP server
<ldlework> basically every other community i both interacting with on a regular basis is on discord
<samueldr> yeah, too bad there's fragmentation that was going to happen whatever happens
<ldlework> some gitters or slack i'll hit up for one of questions
<ldlework> but they're all dead community wise
<V> samueldr: people who go onto discord already are there
<bqv> V: prosody is easy :p
<ldlework> the only place with communities is discord
<ldlework> ime
<V> bqv: yep! And there's a NixOS module too. I just have to get around to it
<V> ldlework: maybe I'd get to experience that if they didn't ban 3rd part clients
<V> Party*
<ldlework> Any other brute fact that you have on hand regarding Discord, that's where the tech communities where people actually talk to each other are
<ldlework> I mean besides IRC ofc. it's just my experience
<V> With an IRC client I can trust that it's not going to suddenly start using a shade of purple that's viscerally uncomfortable for me to look at
<V> Oh, I'm sure
<V> I thought you meant *including* tech communities and was confused for a moment
<V> I totally agree that we need a Discord alternative
<V> But that alternative isn't Matrix.
<V> It's not IRC either, in case I'm making it sound like that.
<ldlework> the funny thing is there is an ok nixos discord
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<bqv> I seriously hate that I have to even have discord, but its impossible to socialise without it now, apparently
<bqv> All the communities exclusively there
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<siraben> discord for FOSS isn't a good look IMO
<V> nope
<Mic92> Well. I guess Matrix it is. Bye!
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<sorear> yeah I haven't figured out how to connect to matrix yet either
<ar> ldlework: the most actually on-topic tech communities i'm participating in, are on irc/irc bridged with matrix/matrix
<ldlework> they're not mutually exclusive states
<ldlework> a discord server can have a place, or multiple domain specific places for ontopic discussion, and places for offtopic discussion. that is likely why community is possible.
<ar> also, discord is actively hostile towards bridging with other protocols
<ar> and towards foss clients
<ldlework> to be clear, not recommending discord or anything, just that everything else comparatively sucks along dimensions that have to do with actually using the thing
<ar> on top of that, their desktop client is as spyware adjecent as it can get
<ar> and their web client seems to do some weird stuff with accessing webcam/microphone too
<ldlework> fud?
<ar> when i have powermanagent enabled on my laptop webcam, having a browser tab open with discord, despite webcam access for discord being blocked, the webcam is getting usb resets
<ar> i haven't looked deeply into it, but seems sus a lot
<ar> [Thu May 20 01:22:43 2021] usb usb2: root hub lost power or was reset
<ar> [Thu May 20 01:22:43 2021] usb usb3: root hub lost power or was reset
<ar> [Thu May 20 01:22:43 2021] xhci_hcd 0000:06:00.0: Zeroing 64bit base registers, expecting fault
<ar> [Thu May 20 01:22:44 2021] usb 2-2: reset high-speed USB device number 2 using xhci_hcd
<ar> [Thu May 20 01:22:44 2021] usb 2-2: restoring control 00000000-0000-0000-0000-000000000101/10/5
<ar> [Thu May 20 01:22:44 2021] usb 2-2: restoring control 00000000-0000-0000-0000-000000000101/12/11
<ar> like, I don't want to point fingers anywhere, and it might just be some weird browser bug
<ar> but i do have camera access for discord (and most other websites too) blocked, and this thing only happens if i have a discord tab open
<MichaelRaskin> V: I am pretty sure my (terminal) Matrix setup will not succeed at outputting colours…
<lovesegfault> colemickens: I saw your issue about getting those "Failed to find a machine for remote build!" warnings
<lovesegfault> did you ever figure that out?
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<elvishjerricco> One thing that I think gets left out of the discussion about irc vs matrix is that the user experience for irc also sucks pretty bad. Like I just wouldn't have started to use it if I didn't pay for proprietary irccloud to make it more like matrix with persistent history and mobile push notifications etc. There's convos for an open source alternative to irccloud that I really like, but just falls a tad too short for my needs.
<elvishjerricco> This may just be because I haven't been using IRC for 10+ years like a lot of people have, but IMO the only advantage to IRC is that it's fast and easy to login to.
<elvishjerricco> Oops that grammar is a bit ambiguous; it is a fast system, and it is easy to login to.
<elvishjerricco> /end hot take
<samueldr> tepid at best
<samueldr> IRC has some accessibility barriers too
<samueldr> I wouldn't know how to weigh matrix vs. IRC objectively
<Reventlov> yeah, ircv3 will correct a few of these
<Reventlov> problem with matrix is it's a product and not a protocol
<Ke> how is it not a set of protocold?
<Ke> s
<Reventlov> Ke: it changes every six months
<Reventlov> in every semi-public discussion, Matthew will try to sell the thing
<Reventlov> you have one client / one server with everything
<Reventlov> also: it seems it tries to do so many things
<Reventlov> real time chat, real time audio chat, real time video chat, and then…
<Reventlov> IOT stuff
<elvishjerricco> ... there's IOT stuff? Audio and video chat are at least important categories that make sense to branch into. But IOT?...
<Reventlov> on the front page
<Reventlov> « OT, VR and more... Matrix can handle any type of real-time data, not only messaging and VoIP. By building bridges to as many IoT silos as possible, data can be securely published on the Matrix network. IoT solutions built on Matrix are unified, rather than locked to specific vendors, and can even publish or consume Matrix data directly from devices via ultra-low bandwidth transports (100bps or
<Reventlov> less) »
<Reventlov> and part of this difficulty to know what it's for is linked to the fact you had 7 different version of matrix (for the moment) https://spec.matrix.org/unstable/rooms/v7/
<Reventlov> and then they are talking about having embedded server inside clients making it more decentralized
<Reventlov> meanwhile, the official web client still cannot handle correctly the join / parts (and it has been like this since years)
<Reventlov> </rant>
<f0x> 'cannot handle correctly'?
<Reventlov> f0x: just join any room with a lot of membership events
<Reventlov> it will freeze and you will not be able to type stuff
<Reventlov> I have a video of this
<f0x> heh that's always just worked fine for me, even with big irc netsplits
<ehmry> my first introduction to matrix was a fossdem talk selling it as IoT
<Reventlov> f0x: well try this channel (which bridges with IRC, which is supposed to be a selling point of Matrix)
<Reventlov> and use the web element client
<{^_^}> vector-im/element-web#7015 (by richvdh, 2 years ago, open): riot hangs when you open a large room
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<colemickens> <lovesegfault "colemickens: I saw your issue ab"> i'm not sure which one this was, if it's just a remote builder that youre specifying that's not being picked, it's usually due to a feature/arch mismatch
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<lovesegfault[m]> <colemickens "i'm not sure which one this was,"> Right, I have an AArch64 builder in my /etc/nix/nix.conf, but idk why it's trying to pick it for an x86 build?
<lovesegfault[m]> feels kind of silly to always be generating a warning if the user has a remote builder that doesn't serve every single build they may want to do
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<eyJhb> I guess I have to setup my Matrix homeserver...
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<bqv> <Reventlov> problem with matrix is it's a product and not a protocol
<bqv> This, so much this
<bqv> Matthew was on HN trying to compare the matrix foundation to IEEE and ISO earlier
<bqv> I nearly popped a blood vessel
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<LinuxHackerman> wow
<LinuxHackerman> >NickServ: Time registered: Wed 15 Jun 2011 11:35:55 +0000 (9y 11m 6d 01:44:30 ago)
<bqv> I just nabbed an account on oftc that hadnt been used for 17 years
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<DomenKoar[m]> see ya @ matrix
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<Baughn> ar: Discord talks to the webcam to figure out how to configure its video chat, at startup / refresh time.
<Baughn> ar: It doesn't, like, *use* it. That would've been a PR disaster. But I can also confirm that -- I have mine wired into series with an LED, and it doesn't get powered at all. Only the USB interface gets signalled.
<Baughn> Arguably it could delay the configuration until you actually try to use the camera, but doing the configuration at initialization time isn't terrible design.
<ar> Baughn: or it could do that only if it actually gets camera access
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<ar> Baughn: because what happens right now actually results in terrible design - it tries to do whatever it does in a loop, and that pointlessly increases power usage
<Baughn> Sure? But the deskop app has webcam access by default, and isn't coded to expect that to be denied. You can run it in a namespace with the devices whitelisted, if you're so inclined.
<Baughn> Or just use the browser app.
<ar> Baughn: also, i'm talking about the browser app, not the desktop app
<Baughn> If you deny camera access to it, it doesn't keep banging its head against the ACL.
<Baughn> And if you're seeing USB resets caused by it, then you haven't actually denied access.
<Baughn> (...or you did, and it's a browser bug.)
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<Baughn> Re. Matrix--
<Baughn> I got a homeserver running, then had it somehow get stuck in a CPU-burning loop overnight.
<Baughn> So, rolled that back.
<Baughn> This does not seem ready for use.
<hyperfekt> did you try to join a big room? ^
<Baughn> Yeah, #nixos.
<hyperfekt> i think it's recommended not to do that :b
<Baughn> =_=
<Baughn> That's literally the only reason I wanted it.
<Baughn> I also asked around, and apparently the current timeouts on matrix.org are a bit worse than usual, but *not* at all unusual.
<Baughn> Their recommendation was to run a homeserver, or better yet to use something else.
<Baughn> So, sorry, but I also will not be joining folks there.
<Baughn> I'm moving to Libera, and I hope there'll be an active NixOS channel there.
<hyperfekt> with some luck there will be one that's bridged to matrix
<Baughn> I'm not sure what I'll do if there's not. :/
<Baughn> There is the discord server, but...
<Baughn> ...well. In all honesty, that server seems way more active than #nixos here.
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<phant0m> whats the issue with using matrix.org as the homeserver?
<Baughn> It keeps timing out on me.
<phant0m> huh
<hexa-> centralization
<hexa-> Baughn: load spikes like you mentioned occurred when lots of people cause presence updates, disable presence if necessary
<bqv> phant0m: if everyone uses matrix.org, it's broadly no better than discord
<MichaelRaskin> Well, still better because you have a choice of clients
<bqv> It's main selling point is "decentralised" and "protocol" and its demonstrably awful at both
<hexa-> it is the jabber.ccc.de of homeservers :)
<bqv> Is that really that big?
<bqv> I've not noticed
<MichaelRaskin> Synapse is surely better at decentralised than at keeping up with load spikes…
<Baughn> hexa-: I'm going to *try* the Rust version, but Synapse in general seems like a garbage fire. I also had to turn off a lot of my other services to make it fit in memory.
<hexa-> Baughn: pretty sure dendrite is further ahead than conduit fwiw
<bqv> I tried dendrite two months ago. Couldn't get it to work. Definitely not touching synapse even with lead gloves
<hexa-> but sure, give conduit a try
<hexa-> bqv: andi- has it running
<Baughn> Thanks. And I like the idea of using Conduit, because I can potentially contribute patches.
<bqv> Honestly, I'm not interested. I abhor matrix at this point. I mentioned it earlier, the ceo of matrix foundation was on hacker news comparing his company to ISO
<Baughn> Oh yeah, I saw that.
<Baughn> The whole ecosystem makes me squeamish, even more so than Discord.
<bqv> Exactly!
<Baughn> But if it becomes a choice of "Use Matrix" or "Stop recommending NixOS"...
<Baughn> I dunno.
<bqv> Theyll bridge it to libera
<Baughn> Let's hope that *works*.
<bqv> Lmao
<joepie91> there's actually the intention of bridging to Libera-side channels, but there's no bridge yet
<joepie91> <bqv> phant0m: if everyone uses matrix.org, it's broadly no better than discord
<joepie91> this is not the case
<joepie91> not by a long stretch
<joepie91> I don't know where people keep pulling this "everyone uses matrix.org" crap from, it's extremely obviously not the case if you've spent any time on Matrix at all :/
<phant0m> #nix:nixos.org is 50% personal homeservers
<hyperfekt> i'm tempted to try and join with conduit
<hyperfekt> the warning on its homepage is strange reasoning to me. wouldn't you want bugs to be found early, even if by accident, instead of waiting for someone with malicious intent to abuse them?
<hyperfekt> unless matrix servers are known to have so many bugs that it would most certainly break them
<Baughn> That's what scares me. Why on *earth* would there be such a warning?
<Baughn> ...and that's why, I guess.
<andi-> bqv: I now have a dendrite and synapse instance running... the synapse instance is <6h old.. the annoyance patterns are different..
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<bqv> Heh
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<bqv> Yeah idk, I'm not interested in matrix at all at this point, so the fact that it's so good at^w^w keen on bridging to irc works in my favour
<joepie91> hyperfekt: it's an abundance-of-caution thing. such bugs would ideally be discovered in controlled circumstances, with someone around to debug and resolve them
<joepie91> basically the equivalent of "don't deploy on fridays"
<joepie91> and joining and breaking a large public room without anyone around to resolve the matter is the equivalent of deploying on fridays
<joepie91> sure, it'll usually be no problem, but when it is...
<Baughn> Except it's... someone anyone can do, so...
<joepie91> correct
<joepie91> if you believe that half the world's digital infrastructure can't be toppled over by a sufficiently motivated bored teenager, I have bad news for you :)
<joepie91> the Conduit maintainer is just being honest about it and asking people not to do that, to reduce accidental disruptive breakgae
<Baughn> The fact that it hasn't been, suggests it can't be. I've met teenagers. :P
<eyJhb> Teenagers are fucking up a lot of public services
<eyJhb> Might not be ALL at once.
<joepie91> you can still run Conduit in public rooms, but it's your responsibility if it fucks something up, basically
<joepie91> and yep, what eyJhb said
<joepie91> 'bored teenager' is legitimately one of the most significant threat models that needs to be considered in infosec
<eyJhb> I know I have fucked some shit up :D :D :D
<eyJhb> Back.. When I was more bored.
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<MichaelRaskin> I am pretty sure in an hour a sufficiently determined teenager can find an unprotected VNC or RDP endpoint letting change the flow at a hydro dam
<MichaelRaskin> A physical hydroelectrical plant, I mean
<waleee-cl> at least in Swden powerplants have a seperate network
<hodapp> the power of porn to distract said teenager should also not be underestimated
<waleee-cl> I wonder if someone has done any research on that ^
<waleee-cl> ... if "attacks by teen per capita" has diminished
<hyperfekt> clearly all industrial control processors need to be linekd up to onlyfans immediately
<MichaelRaskin> This discussion suddenly manages to remind me of The Great IPv6 Experiment in two different ways
<bqv> Uhoh
<bqv> MichaelRaskin: howso?
<MichaelRaskin> Do you know what The Great IPv6 experiment was supposed to be?
<bqv> No?
<MichaelRaskin> Ooooh. It did not get the fame it deserved…
<MichaelRaskin> So it was like a long time ago
<MichaelRaskin> Let me check
<MichaelRaskin> Yeah, a bit more than ten years ago
<MichaelRaskin> IPv6 was already clearly the cool thing to do and also clearly somewhat deployed and also clearly not much deployed
<MichaelRaskin> And we all know how digital technologies win. Porn.
<bqv> 👀
<MichaelRaskin> So some people started collecting licenses for a lot of non-freshest porn to launch an IPv6-only free site where porn — lots of it — could be downloaded
<MichaelRaskin> So one way «availability of porn vs. damage dealt by teenagers» reminds me of that is obvious.
<phant0m> hah
<MichaelRaskin> I keep one quote saved from their FAQ though.
<aleph-> Go onnnn
<MichaelRaskin> «3) We might break the internet. — I'm really hoping we don't do this. :) I don't believe it's possible - but if we actually did break something I'd hope the lesson(s) learned from it would be more valuable than not doing it.»
<bqv> Hahah
<andi-> bqv: one point against dendrite: I hade my server in an OOM situation for about 40min earlier today... not fun
<andi-> 4GiB RAM is not enough to keep up with the nixos matrix conversastions
<andi-> Whilst that RAM could fit years of backlog.
<bqv> Classic
<bqv> Yeah I've had a lot less load issues since deleting my homeservers
<MichaelRaskin> Of course there were many jokes (but true!) about people who helped with the project just for being thanked on the website — and people who helped under condition that they would never be publically thanked for their help.
<eyJhb> andi-: Wasn't dendrite the one that should use less?
<andi-> I think it is the Go GC that is failing.
<andi-> but yeah it says a lot already
<bqv> I think my ideal would be that they get the bifrost up and running again so I can just matrix using prosody and not have to deal with their stuff
<bqv> Unlikely to happen though
<MichaelRaskin> (how TGIPv6E _failed_ was also interesting, in my opinion…)
<bqv> Go on :p
<andi-> The go allocator is probably not lying... Looks like it almost never reclaims? https://s.rammhold.de/kdfsgjasjsfjlsfs.png
<MichaelRaskin> They were shipped quite a lot of recordings that studios were preliminarily OK with them serving IPv6-only… and then when the lawyers were going over the final paperwork, people started rechecking music rights. Yep, turned out approximately nobody had rights that would allow Internet distribution
<bqv> Wow
<aleph-> Heh
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<nitia> samueldr: whats happening to logs?
<nitia> Will you log libera
<nitia> Or are you on the matrix bus
<samueldr> since the official word is matrix, at the time, I'm on the matrix
<samueldr> we'll see how things goes down the line
<nitia> Mmkay
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<Baughn> samueldr: I can't get matrix.org to let me on at all. Can you ask whoever is running the channel if it's okay to connect Conduit to it?
<andi-> ^ phant0m
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<phant0m> Baughn: ideally you would not, at least, I'm not ready to be okay with that today
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