gchristensen changed the topic of #nixos-chat to: NixOS but much less topical || https://logs.nix.samueldr.com/nixos-chat
<colemickens> oh yeah, that's it
<colemickens> I wonder if my ISP is also having such issues
<colemickens> are you monitoring your ipv6 or how did you even notice? I'd have assumed everything else fails over quietly?
<colemickens> or just via tailscale failing?
<lovesegfault> Well, tailscale stopped working
<lovesegfault> so I pinged d*nderson
<lovesegfault> and we debugged together :P
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<infinisil> Random idea time
<infinisil> The problem is: Should time be billed hourly or for some specific finished amount of work
<infinisil> The idea: You don't know!
<gchristensen> neither, you should not bill for time -- you should bill for the value delivered to the customer
<infinisil> Both parties agree to have a 50% chance of it being either one or the other
<infinisil> Only after the deed is done you know whether it's one or the other
<infinisil> I haven't thought too much about how this dynamic would turn out, but it's an interesting thought
<gchristensen> you almost always lose if you bill hourly
<samueldr> gchristensen: bill your value hourly
<gchristensen> lol
<infinisil> Hmm
<infinisil> I mean neither is optimal. If you only bill for what you deliver, then you'd get less salary on days where you don't perform as well
<gchristensen> sure
<infinisil> Bad mental state -> no income
<gchristensen> but looking at money per day is too short sighted, because bad mental day -> take a vacation, don't force yourself to work
<infinisil> Good point
<gchristensen> bill by value delivered and you could end up billing what turns out to be $750/h! but bill by hourly rate and nobody will ever agree to $750/h
<samueldr> I win! I switched computers to see if the build I was waiting on was finished, *just* as the VM popped-up!
<infinisil> gchristensen: What if it turns out to take much longer than anticipated though
<infinisil> Maybe still worth
<gchristensen> "this system fails a lot and it wastes a lot of our time, and costs us 2 hours of time per developer per day" -> mental math time: $100/h * 2 * however many people are on the team * however long this problem has existed and now bill a fraction of that and it is a good deal
<samueldr> maybe never contract something too big to be confident in the work it requires to do?
<samueldr> (don't look at me... I explicitly worked as employee to not have to deal with such questions)
<gchristensen> yeah, make the contract small scoped enough to limit your risk, and then make the estimate of time big enough that even if you go maybe 2 or 4x over your estimate it is ok
<gchristensen> don't gouge, but also bill for what you're worth :)
<samueldr> "by the hour" contract work should only be used to replace an employee, and not to "do a thing", probably
<gchristensen> yea
<infinisil> replace an employee?
<gchristensen> "team augmentation"
<samueldr> replace is not the right work
<infinisil> Like temporarily?
<samueldr> but "work as if you were"
<samueldr> I spent two years "on site" like an employee at a local company, but wasn't their employee
<infinisil> Well, you're doing a great job at convincing me to not bill hourly :)
<gchristensen> it is almost always a losing proposition :)
<samueldr> for ultimate value, possibly, for stability, depends
<gchristensen> unless they're going to say we want 30 hours of your time each week for 6 months, then the calculation becomes closer to hourly
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<samueldr> but yes, working "hourly" on "a thing" is probably not good in the end
<infinisil> Okay so I'm just messing around with ideas, but
<infinisil> How about a mix of hourly and fixed: The price of hours decreases over time!
<gchristensen> :D
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<infinisil> So the initial hour price might be $500, but it drops along some mathematical curve
<infinisil> Something that doesn't have an accumulative limit notably
<infinisil> Then if you finish early you get a lot for little time, but if you take longer you still get compensated for the additional time
<infinisil> It sounds good in my head, how good is this idea actually?
<infinisil> I guess this doesn't work for the "X amount of hours every Y time" deals
<infinisil> Only for the "We need X done"
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<infinisil> More parameters make this complicated though
<infinisil> makes*
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<samueldr> I guess you need a nerd on the other business end
<samueldr> what I mean is that it's probably not what you'll find usually in business terms, so good luck getting the point accross :)
<samueldr> fun to see actions fail spuriously like that
<samueldr> (not looking for a fix, just a bit of venting)
<Church-> Huh interesting
<Church-> Hmm, anyone have a preferred dns zone file nix dsl/module?
<Church-> Hmm guess I'll just use nix-dns
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<infinisil> Church-: I do!
<infinisil> But it's my own :)
<Church-> Heheh
<infinisil> eyJhb can attest
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<infinisil> It's a nixus module though, not a NixOS module, so it can declare stuff for multiple machines
Church- is now known as aleph-
<cole-h> anybody have any recs on a UPS?
<aleph-> Anything apc
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<ashkitten> a parody of that shitty basecamp thing lol
<siraben> can someone tldr the basecamp situation
<siraben> IIRC they banned political discussion internally, what else?
<ar> siraben: lots of people walked out because of that
<siraben> ar: how come?
<ar> siraben: ?
<siraben> Like, political discussion at work can be polarizing, it does make some sense to discourage political talks
<siraben> or am I missing something
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<ar> yeah, but people apparently are willing to walk out of the door if they're not allowed to talk about polarizing stuff
<siraben> hm. wow.
<ashkitten> lol @ anyone who thinks you can choose to not take sides in politics
<ashkitten> the basecamp post says "You shouldn't have to wonder if staying out of it means you're complicit"
<ashkitten> which, yeah. staying out of it makes you complicit
<siraben> Or maybe you just don't care
<ashkitten> read it for yourself
<ashkitten> siraben: yeah, which makes you complicit
<siraben> How does that make someone complicit?
<siraben> I will read that.
<ashkitten> saying you don't care about injustices you're aware of makes you complicit lol
<siraben> If someone talks about issue X but I do not know enough about it, there is no need for me to comment or agree or disagree with what they say until I do, if I bother reading up on it.
<siraben> So one should not expect everyone to jump on taking a stance on literally every single issue
<ashkitten> never said you should take a stance on things you're not informed on, but you should be informed
<siraben> I'm saying it's a data problem. If I don't know enough, then there is nothing for me to say.
<ashkitten> yeah so find out more
<ashkitten> but that's not what this is about
<siraben> Only if I want to
<ashkitten> this is about banning conversation on the pretense of it being "political"
<ashkitten> because presumably it makes people uncomfortable to hear about black lives matter and stuff
<siraben> point 1. in the post seems vague, what even is a political discussion
<siraben> people can be political, but companies need not follow and virtual signal
<ashkitten> not taking a stance is implicitly upholding the status quo
<ashkitten> which is inherently political
<ashkitten> you can't choose to not take a stance, as an individual or corporation
<siraben> you can choose to not comment or act, no?
<ashkitten> which implicitly upholds the status quo
<ashkitten> i'm not saying that the fake activism companies partake in with rainbow garbage and black lives matter banners is effective or not virtue signalling
<siraben> I'm not sure that make sense.
<ashkitten> the status quo is the "default" state of affairs you are supporting by not supporting anything else
<ashkitten> if you consider the status quo the "default" then by not supporting anything else you are supporting that
<ashkitten> every action you take in life implicitly reinforces some set of values
<siraben> What is the scope of the injustices you are talking about? local, other countries, etc.? I could say that by not doing something you are reinforcing oppression elsewhere that has no relation to you
<ashkitten> i'm not saying that everyone should choose to speak out about every injustice in the world. there are too many
<ashkitten> but that is a decision
<ashkitten> and pretending it's not is absurd
<siraben> I dunno, man, I'm not sold on the "inaction = uploading status quo = political stance" line of thinking.
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<ashkitten> everything you do follows an ideology. you might not even realize it's there because you see it as the default, but it's there and informs everything you experience
<ashkitten> let's say for example you're talking to a child who is lost and you want to help them find their parents. you probably imagine their parents are a couple consisting of a man and a woman, by default
<ashkitten> why do you think that? why is that the "default" to you?
<ashkitten> you see and internally reinforce everything you see in the world around you
<ashkitten> if you act as though that is the default, you are externally reinforcing that as well
<ashkitten> i need to get back to my friends. i hope my explanation was informative and maybe you'll look up more resources on the topic that can explain better
<manveru> yeah... politics, the only way to win is not to play, and even then you lose :P
<ashkitten> manveru: this is the last thing i can comment on but that's a ridiculous statement. politics isn't a game other people play to make you feel bad. if you don't "play" then that's a political choice you're making. it's not about pleasing people or making yourself feel good, or winning. it's about choosing something you think is right, educating yourself about it, and standing up for it.
<ashkitten> it really pisses me off that people think that way. it's not a trick people are playing on you, it's a discussion about things that matter.
<ashkitten> if those things don't matter to you and you wonder why people care about them, find out why other people care so much and decide if you care too.
<siraben> ashkitten: Why are you attacking them?
<ashkitten> because i'm trans and queer and my existence is political, and people acting like it's all some fucking game is a tool of my oppression
<ashkitten> i'm done here
<siraben> If someone doesn't care about a topic, that's their complete choice. What matters to people is relative. Someone may not care about free software, whereas others may
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<manveru> i just found it funny how much can be read into my sentence :)
<ldlework> seemed like you were just trying to lighten the mood
<ldlework> "why would you expect the parents of a mammalian creature to be a male and female" seems like gaslighting to me
<siraben> manveru: If one views everything as political, jokes are definitely political šŸ˜‚
<ldlework> to never expect a non-heterosexual parental couple is one thing, to *expect* it as the statistical likelyhood on a random encounter is just to be bad at statistics
<siraben> Ah, so this that's the sort of polarizing conversation basecamp wants to rid of in their internal culture
<manveru> anyway, it's not that i don't care about politics, but i certainly don't care enough to go online, write about it, and be attacked for doing so, because everything you say can and will be used against you, especially online (and yeah, this sentence just violated my principles... but absolutes are for sith anyway)
<siraben> manveru++
<{^_^}> manveru's karma got increased to 46
<ldlework> I wonder how the moral status of passionately promoting a cause by bludgeoning strangers with poor arguments as a standin for doing something real efficacy to your cause compares to doing nothing at all.
<eyJhb> aleph-: Nixus works quite well, and I think it has one design choice that I quite love. You have your zones, and your records. ANd it will automatically detect how your records match your zones. Also, look here - https://github.com/Infinisil/system/blob/master/config/multimods/dns-records.nix
<aleph-> Means I need to use nixOS however
<aleph-> nixus*
<Irenes> if anybody wants a good summary of what actually happened at Basecamp (not just the stuff the company chose to say about it), this is a good read: https://www.platformer.news/p/-what-really-happened-at-basecamp
<eyJhb> Also.. dns.nix does "some" escaping, but it actually does other things wrong, which needs a PR. I haven't had the time to make one yet, but it escapes the emails wrong
<Irenes> I think it's quite common that people jump to conclusions about these things based on insufficient information
<eyJhb> Yeah, that's true! But look out for emails in dns.nix :)
<eyJhb> It does not escape `.` correctly
<Irenes> because it gets hard to spot how corporate PR teams control the narrative, unless you're used to it
<eyJhb> Do you use anything else atm. besides nixus? Or is it a single system setup?
<eyJhb> But it would be cool to reuse dns.nix in nixus, to have a single awesome way to make zoneflies. So nixus DNS stuff could be upstreamed
<eyJhb> (at some point I think infinisil has a cult with nixus)
<aleph-> Oh heya Irenes
<aleph-> eyJhb: nixops, might move to morph seems it might scale better.
<eyJhb> Quality Dansih produced software aleph- ! I like that ! :p (morph)
<aleph-> Heh aye
<eyJhb> The think I like quite a lot with Nixus, is the modules that work across the machines. Not sure morph can do that (yet)
<aleph-> Nod
<Irenes> hi aleph-, good to see you here
<eyJhb> Can it?
<aleph-> Now to figure out adding custom components to HASS.
<aleph-> Don't think so
<eyJhb> Also....
<eyJhb> So confusing aleph- , when your initial question was under church- (I think) :p
<aleph-> Heh indeed
<aleph-> Used to be worse when I would nick hop daily
<aleph-> :p
<eyJhb> I still confuse LinuxHackerma.n and sphalerit.e ...
<eyJhb> Also... all the taly.z Tane.b tazji.n
<eyJhb> (not that much taly.z)
<Irenes> yeah that is an interesting name format
<Irenes> is it supposed to be like a virus identification string, or something?
<eyJhb> Irenes: Mine?
<eyJhb> Or the, ta-family?
<Irenes> the one with the dot before the final letter
<eyJhb> Oh, I just throw in the dots to not tag people :D
<Irenes> ohhh
<Irenes> got it
<eyJhb> Sorry for cufusing you!
<Irenes> I was half convinced it was some weird rendering artifact on my end
<Irenes> no worries :)
<eyJhb> (then then can't see when I bad mouth their nicks! \s)
<eyJhb> then they* damn it.
<Irenes> heh, okay :)
<eyJhb> Also aleph- , just wait. Once we upstream a Minecraft module for nixus, then you will come ! :D
<aleph-> Heh
<aleph-> To be honest not big fan of execute tool, and then ./result workflow :p
<aleph-> So maybe when that gets fixed
<aleph-> Alrighty guess I'm spending tomorrow packaging tons of python stuff. Yayyyy
<joepie91> <siraben> If someone doesn't care about a topic, that's their complete choice.
<joepie91> sure, it's their choice
<joepie91> that doesn't mean it comes without consequences
<joepie91> being called out for it and how it contributes to the status quo, is one of those consequences
<eyJhb> aleph-: What flow is there otherwise/what flow do you feel is better?
<aleph-> Just a nice clear <toolName> deploy <networkName>
<joepie91> (and importantly, "I don't care about this topic" is something totally different from "*you* are not allowed to talk about this topic")
<eyJhb> I think the wrapper that infinisil has, should be upstreamed at some poin then. It is basically just `rb <machineNames...>`, as far as I can see
<eyJhb> But yeah, the "grouping" would be nice as well :)
<eyJhb> But I think that could be done "outside" of nixus. But yeah, there is some more scripting/`nixing`
<Irenes> thank you, joepie91
<eyJhb> At some point, I should check morph out again. Seems cool :)
<ldlework> i'm skeptical basecamp management told anyone they can't go home and talk about whatever they want when they're not being paid to do what they agreed at work
<joepie91> this is completely orthogonal to what actually happened
<ldlework> but that would be something
<ldlework> who's the "you" in "*you* are not allowed to talk about this topic" and who said it?
<ldlework> an employer to an employee?
<joepie91> ldlework: have you read the article that Irenes posted?
<ldlework> half way through, is the answer to my question of specifically who you were talking about in the article
<ldlework> and does it turn out to not be an employer telling it to an employee?
<joepie91> yes
<ldlework> wonder what it has to do with basecamp then
<colemickens> if "you're benefiting from privilege" is perceived as "being bludgeoned" maybe just maybe it's not about what was said, rather than what was heard.
<siraben> joepie91: I'd rather not be framed as guilty for literally doing nothing, at work especially there's rarely need to go into politics
<joepie91> siraben: actually politics are highly relevant to work (in software, at least), just not *party* politics.
<joepie91> because politics decide how you build your infrastructure
<joepie91> feeling like that's not something you need to worry about, is a position of privilege
<ldlework> "how could you expect a parental couple to be heterosexual, bigot" is using a poor argument to bludgeon strangers. if it was a legitimate argument that wasn't used to demean the interlocutor, a different adjective could be used
<siraben> joepie91: for context, I'm still in university, so I care even less about politics while studying for classes, that's just how I spent my time, anyway
<joepie91> so *even* leaving aside the point of "some people existing is political for some other people", yes, you absolutely do need to consider politics if you are working at a software company, and yes, it absolutely does need to be a - well-moderated - topic
<ldlework> 03:41 <ldlework> and does it turn out to not be an employer telling it to an employee?
<ldlework> 03:41 <joepie91> yes
<joepie91> ldlework: "yes" was in response to it being in the article
<ldlework> Literally the only form of "you can't speak about X"
<ldlework> in the entire article is this line:
<ldlework> that Basecamp would ban employees from holding ā€œsocietal and political discussionsā€ on the companyā€™s internal chat forums
<ldlework> aka, an employer to an employee
<ldlework> 03:38 <ldlework> i'm skeptical basecamp management told anyone they can't go home and talk about whatever they want when they're not being paid to do what they agreed at work
<ldlework> 03:39 <joepie91> this is completely orthogonal to what actually happened
<siraben> and personally, I'd rather not have time wasted to politics in academic discussions
<ldlework> it's just endless gaslighting
<joepie91> siraben: great, but a university environment is not a work environment. in university, you are generally not building infrastructure. at a software company, you are.
<joepie91> the requirements for doing the work responsibly, are different.
<Irenes> please be careful with those quotation marks. nobody said "bigot" except you, as far as I can see.
<Irenes> it's not a direct quote
<siraben> joepie91: Ok, but people like ashkitten seem to imply everyone is guilty for upholding the status quo regardless
<Irenes> it's rude to put words in people's mouths
<siraben> That is much broader
<ldlework> <ashkitten> because i'm trans and queer and my existence is political, and people acting like it's all some fucking game is a tool of my oppression
<colemickens> I mean, I'm here trying to figure out what the "quote" is even a reference to
<joepie91> siraben: inaction is a political decision, yes, and one that can bear consequences. the exact consequences will heavily depend on whether it was done knowingly or not
<colemickens> Oh look, people that have never had a basic aspect of their identity used to threaten, taunt, or otherwise other them.
<ldlework> you don't know anything about me lol
<joepie91> siraben: you're unlikely to be considered accountable for not taking action on something you were just unaware of. but when you've been made aware of it, and then *still* choose not to take the right side, yes, that's absolutely on you.
<siraben> colemickens: Who?
<colemickens> Just enough to know you took that and made a completely absurd quote out of it that displays a complete lack of empathy and understanding.
<joepie91> because it is essentially saying "I will accept people oppressing others"
<ldlework> not only do you know all my identity status, you're certain i'm void of empathy
<joepie91> FSVO oppressing
<ldlework> really ironic
<colemickens> But I could try to make up fake quotes to put in your mouth to make my point more bombastic if it would help.
<ldlework> nothing but gaslighting and moralizing
<ldlework> perfect strangers on the internet
<colemickens> I'm not the one that made up a fake quote mischaracterizing someone else advocacy.
<Irenes> it's true. the only thing I know about you is recent scrollback. you are standing entirely on the strength of your words.
<joepie91> ldlework: you've been making bad-faith arguments since literally the very first political discussion I've ever had with you in here, and yes, I'm quite sure that colemickens is correct and you live in a position of privilege
<siraben> Ok, I'm going AFK
<joepie91> you consistently approach politics as a game
<Irenes> when I'm talking to people I've never spoken to before, personally, I feel that as a burden. if I get emotional and say something irresponsible, that's the only thing those people will know about me.
<ldlework> characterizing ashkitten as implicating those who disagree with their position on basecamp, even thoughs making a joke to lighten the mood as their oppressors isn't a mischaracterization
<ldlework> it's literally what happened
<Irenes> that's why I'm saying so little right now - it's too late at night for me to summon my full eloquence, so I'm staying out of things as much as I can.
<ldlework> led with poor arguments about the statistical likelyhood of parents
<ldlework> and when you point out the poor argument you get someone blowing up and moralizing disagreement
<ldlework> can't even fathom how you can contend this is ontologically in the category of strategy
<Irenes> it's quite distressing to realize that not everybody seems to care about the impact their words have on people, or about what people think of them based on that
<joepie91> siraben: also, I don't know how widely this is taught, but you can analogize it to the bullying-at-school thing; you have the bullies, you have the victims, and then you have the silent majority who stand idly by and just laugh about it, and *they are complicit*
<nyanotech> I hate how "gaslighting" is being used to refer to an ever-broader range of things
<joepie91> in Dutch we call this "meelopers" but I don't know of an English translation
<V> "bystander" but that doesn't quite have the same connotation
<nyanotech> apparently "made a not-perfect argument in irc, once" is gaslighting now
<ldlework> trying to moralize people into submission by questioning their correct statistical expectations about the likelyhood of mixed sex parents of a random sample is *definitionally* gaslighting
<joepie91> V: right, the literal translation would be "walk-along" which is super weird in English but does have the right connotation
<ldlework> but go ahead
<ldlework> moralize that i've pointed that out t oo
<ldlework> lol
<V> anyway the pint is that everyone who is humming and hawing about whether or not something is acceptable when there are people being directly affected by something are reinforcing the idea that it's acceptable
<colemickens> Like, are you incapable of understanding emotional hyperbole?
<Irenes> joepie91: that is a really interesting idiom. I like it. thank you!
<colemickens> =
<colemickens> Or are you convinced that drilling into this single lexical phenomena is a winning approach?
<colemickens> * Or are you convinced that drilling into this single lexical phenomena is a winning approach?
<nyanotech> xhjjgbptykgcxhhxgngkccenhpjjhhchykj.nux.hue.
<ldlework> like you did when I pointed out the implications of ashkitten lashing oppressorship around them by including the word "bigot" in my characterizing quote?
<ldlework> you have a double standard too
<colemickens> You put quotes around it.
<Irenes> ldlework: was that directed to me?
<ldlework> yes, to demonstrate it wasn't my literal speech at the time..
<ldlework> to separate it
<ldlework> but it's OK when others do it but not me
<ldlework> because your goal isn't to manifest some principled existence
<ldlework> its just to moralize and subdue your disagreeing interlocutors
<colemickens> Sure, feel feel to point out where I made up a sentence, quoted ti and attributed it to you and I'll apologize.
<Irenes> if it's to me, sure, I agree that I'm "moraliz[ing]" although I disagree with your characterization of what I'm moralizing about
<ldlework> you're dodging the fact that you just called me out for pressing someone calling it "emotional hyperbole" but when I characterize someone lashing out oppressorship by using the word bigot in a characterizing quote that's the line you can't cross
<Irenes> I'm unsure what double standard I'm being accused of. I cannot respond to an allegation I don't understand.
<ldlework> lol it's so obviouly arbitrary and effortlessly crafted to comfort
<ldlework> Irenes: if you didn't do anything resembling the thing someone is saying someone did, probably they're talking to someone else
<Irenes> I also don't generally think of anything I do as a call-out. I know that's a common practice, but it's one I don't really engage in.
* joepie91 observes that the conversation has been reframed to be about ldlework rather than about the topic
<V> ^
<Irenes> well, you didn't answer when I asked if it was to me, and the thing about your quotation was my remark
<colemickens> I was clear about what I criticized and you are clear in your intent to derail every aspect of every bit of this conversation to point out how you're the victim in some fashion.
<ldlework> especially when they haven't responded to you in several minutes, even after you've explicitly highlighted them to get their attention
<Irenes> if it was somebody else, great
<Irenes> good night
<colemickens> Oh look, we all noticed it at the same time.
<V> no, I noticed like two minutes ago but wasn't sure how to comment
<joepie91> same
<joepie91> but this is a recurring thing and why I don't really engage with ldlework on discussions anymore
<ldlework> i'm just pointing out the complete arbitraty hypocritical double-standard
<V> no you're not lol
<ldlework> you want to wield moralizations while you engage in them in the same minute
<colemickens> > I was clear about what I criticized and you are clear in your intent to derail every aspect of every bit of this conversation to point out how you're the victim in some fashion.
<{^_^}> error: syntax error, unexpected IN, expecting ')', at (string):494:55
<V> don't feed the troll, people
<ldlework> 03:55 <colemickens> Like, are you incapable of understanding emotional hyperbole?
<ldlework> it's ok when they do it
<ldlework> "you're just trying to derail by holding me to my own standards"
<ldlework> k
<V> nice bait
<ldlework> maybe don't make up your standards on the spot
<V> anyone got a more interesting topic to discuss than ldlework's feelings?
<JJJollyjim> V: why do we put up with having the troll around?
* colemickens hates to see someone just confirm, in every way, what you feared.
<ldlework> i haven't mentioned once how i feel
<ldlework> but i'm the one trying to derail
<ldlework> "i don't have any response but to completely undermine your right to be here"
<V> https://wondermark.com/1k62/ where is this when I need it the most
<colemickens> lol, another instance of you being so emotionally disregulated that you openly engage in the thing you're being criticized for.
<colemickens> I really recommend you stop putting things in quotes.
<ldlework> "you have a double standard"
<ldlework> "you're emotional"
<ldlework> "no you have a double standard"
<joepie91> JJJollyjim: that's a question I've been wondering about as well
<ldlework> "you're doing the thing you criticize"
<ldlework> "you're doing the thing you criticize" is literally my criticism at this moment
<ldlework> it's mind bending
<ldlework> trolling: challenging someone on the ridiculous arguments they made to moralize the person who disagreed with them into submission before storming off -> when pressing how bad of a strategy that is, i'm simultaneously asked "can't you understand emotion hyperbole?" / "how can you misquote them in an attempt to characterize in summary their long discourse?", to pointing how that's a
<ldlework> double-standard -> to a gang of guffawing, character assumptions, accusations of bad-faith and trolling
<joepie91> ldlework: just stop, please.
<joepie91> read the room
<ldlework> look, enough of us are okay with treating you reprehensibly for calling out behavior so
<ldlework> lol unbelievable. you'd never tell victims of your favorite statuses to "read the room".
<JJJollyjim> "im not owned! im not owned!!", i continue to insist as i slowly shrink and transform into a corn cob
<nyanotech> ye
<joepie91> JJJollyjim: is that a dril?
<joepie91> there's always a dril
<V> This is not a dril!
<ldlework> me: you have bad arguments and double standards / you: you're my oppressor, you have never felt oppressed or disadvantaged for any intrinsic thing about you, you completely lack empathy, you're a troll and i wonder why we put up with you
<nyanotech> can we go back and uninvent them
<nyanotech> god, blue LEDs were a mistake
<MichaelRaskin> See, the problem is not blue LEDs. It's people who sign off design of products with blue as the LED colour.
<leonardp> so tru
<nyanotech> the problem isn't even that, it's people that don't dim them enough when designing products with blue as the led color
<MichaelRaskin> Uninventing blue LEDs won't really help. Maybe reinventing anti-monopoly enforcement so that everything is available from different suppliers sometimes differing only in the LEF coulour choice couldā€¦
<nyanotech> but either way, society has clearly shown that they aren't responsilbe enough to handle blue LEDs yet
<siraben> nyanotech: what's wrong with blue LEDs?
<V> I wonder how much you could make by running a business that replaces blue LEDs with red LEDs in consumer electronics
<MichaelRaskin> Society is not responsible enough to allow organisations larger than 100 members
<siraben> nyanotech: bahaha
<MichaelRaskin> V: I am afraid not much, because of how horrible it is just to disassemble thingsā€¦
<nyanotech> siraben: nothing inherently wrong with them, it's just that they've gotten absurdly efficient, and people still use the same current-limiting resistors in their designs, so you end up with absurdly bright indicator lights
<nyanotech> I just replaced a 300-ohm with a 10k-ohm, and it's still a bit too bright for my taste
<V> MichaelRaskin: that just means you charge more for the service
<MichaelRaskin> And limit the marketā€¦
<V> shit. this will just result in servicers lobbying electronics producers to user blue LEDs more, perpetuating the suffering
<V> s/user/use/
<nyanotech> "is this a butterfly" meme "is this politics?" :p
<V> why do economics ruin everything
<{^_^}> undefined variable 'Society' at (string):494:1
<MichaelRaskin> > Society is not responsible enough to allow organisations larger than 100 members
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<joepie91> working out a sensible decisionmaking system is also a much more cooperative process than observing the issues in an existing one
<joepie91> just that they are definitely bad
<MichaelRaskin> Well, you word a problem that is applicable to approximately any system with unopposed size creep as specifically about capitalist system
<joepie91> the problem I have mentioned above is fundamental to capitalism
<joepie91> there are plenty of other bad things :P
<MichaelRaskin> I am saying that you have not mentioned any less bad decision making system.
<joepie91> doing so is not a requirement for criticizing an existing one
<MichaelRaskin> Once you have something large and uncontrolled, it needs a lot of focus to make anything but bad decisions all the time, and its bad decisions will scale quickly.
<joepie91> oh, I'm not saying that capitalist economics are exclusively bad
<MichaelRaskin> (Sure, capitalist decision making system needs antimonopoly pressure and redistribution pressure, which can be applied without changing the decision making system)
<MichaelRaskin> It's fundamental to systems where organisations are not pressured against being both large and long-living
<joepie91> no, not really; this specific problem is introduced by the specific optimization of capitalism for individualist benefit above all
<joepie91> that is not common to every other system
<joepie91> (nor is it "human nature", despite the popularity of that claim)
<MichaelRaskin> The problem is with scaling
<joepie91> I don't see how that follows
<MichaelRaskin> There are people who want to be somewhere high up in a large organisation. These will push towards scaling up the operations no matter what is the surrounding system, no matter whether it affects their personal consumption, no matter if there is a point.
<MichaelRaskin> And of course the scaled-up organisations will be the one with the most impact, purely numerically.
<joepie91> this seems orthogonal to the problem I was talking about of externalizing costs
<MichaelRaskin> Externalising costs will happen as a way of accelerating scaling up\
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<MichaelRaskin> Note that company mergers in capitalist system are very often value-destructing for shareholders and customers alike
<joepie91> <MichaelRaskin> Externalising costs will happen as a way of accelerating scaling up\
<joepie91> this seems like a disguised "human nature" argument
<MichaelRaskin> I am not saying it is general human nature
<MichaelRaskin> I am saying that humans are different
<MichaelRaskin> And you need selection pressure that does not give scalers-up disproportional impact
<joepie91> I'm still not following why you believe that 'scaling up' automatically results in externalized costs, if not for an implied argument that externalizing costs is human nature
<MichaelRaskin> There is no unified human nature beyond maybe primate nature. Sure, oxygen-breathing, sure, mammals, suuure, apes, but do not underestimate the spread, but then there is a split into a range on everything.
<MichaelRaskin> The most efficient way to scale things up quickly includes externalising costs.
<MichaelRaskin> There will be a small minority which likes scaling things up, and you want them not to be so succesful that externalising costs is the only way to scale things up even faster.
<joepie91> <MichaelRaskin> The most efficient way to scale things up quickly includes externalising costs.
<joepie91> I disagree that that is inherently true
<joepie91> yes, it holds true under capitalism
<joepie91> because 'efficiency' under capitalism is effectively defined as cost reduction
<joepie91> but that is not necessarily true outside of capitalism
<MichaelRaskin> I mean, under Soviet Union there were also impressively wasteful scale-up projects
<MichaelRaskin> Efficient _for scalers-up_ means max scale given resources allocated
<__monty__> They conveniently ignore certain costs incurred because of externalising though.
<joepie91> "the soviet union" is an n=1 data point
<joepie91> I don't consider that an argument :P
<MichaelRaskin> Dynamics of the problem was similar enough
<joepie91> my point is that you can't extrapolate from "the soviet union was also wasteful in scaling up" to "scaling up efficiently fundamentally involves externalizing costs"
<MichaelRaskin> Sure, you can even argue that the notion of Ā«costĀ» is not applicable to Soviet Union scale-up messes
<MichaelRaskin> It's not about costs either way, it's about scale-up no matter if it provides value to anyone except those with scaling up as a terminal value
<joepie91> ok, that detail - "scale for the sake of scale" - was missing from your initial comments :P
<MichaelRaskin> (Whatever notion of value is considered, because _none_ is taken into account)
<joepie91> I think I understand what you're trying to get at now
<joepie91> in scale-for-the-sake-of-scale, yes, I agree that wastefulness is inherent and that externalization of costs is likely to happen
<joepie91> but then the crucial point in a system is whether it encourages such a mentality, and another way to frame my criticism of capitalism is that that's exactly what it does
<joepie91> that is, the common 'success metrics' in capitalism, by design, optimize for those who have a scale-for-the-sake-of-scale mentality
<MichaelRaskin> Any system where scale is unopposed hands the most impact to those who scale for the scale
<joepie91> I disagree
<joepie91> scale does not need to be opposed; it just needs to not be systemically encouraged
<MichaelRaskin> Scale _is_ one of those things that is systematically encouranged by not being opposed
<joepie91> that is, in a healthy system, the response to someone building things to an unreasonable scale should be "eh, cool I guess?" not "omg you're a visionary"
<joepie91> no, I really cannot agree with that
<joepie91> scale requires support from third parties, it's not something you can do on your own
<joepie91> without some form of active systemic support it cannot exist to a degree that it significantly impacts society
<MichaelRaskin> In a healthy system the reaction to an organisation scaling up too much is Ā«nope, you cannot now just buy 25% of the entire supply of X, no matter why you want itĀ»
<MichaelRaskin> Neither you can get it assigned the same 25% of the entire supply in the next 5-year plan
<MichaelRaskin> (That's the default reaction, there might be a situation where the tradeoffs need to be made)
<joepie91> I wouldn't consider "go away, we don't care to support your megalomaniac project" to be active opposition, personally
<joepie91> to me, active opposition looks like "we will try to shut down and/or sabotage the project"
<joepie91> and "no we will not support you" is merely unsupportive, ie. "no systemic encouragement of"
<MichaelRaskin> Ā«Megalomaniac projectĀ» is usually not Ā«scale for the scaleĀ»
<MichaelRaskin> Like, there is a project involved!
<joepie91> projects can definitely be for the sake of scale :P
<MichaelRaskin> Not just a merger of local producers (or transporters) of X to make sure they can capture all handling in some niche then use this capture to destroy another niche
<joepie91> see also: most of the scalability fetish nonsense in devops land
<MichaelRaskin> Come on
<MichaelRaskin> This fetish is clearly not for the real sake of getting scale
<MichaelRaskin> This is for the sake of Ā«you give me pointless tasks, I will find a point in them, and I do not care if the result is horribleĀ»
<MichaelRaskin> Also, CV
<joepie91> no, there are plenty of people who are actually doing it for the scale
<joepie91> I talk to them regularly :P
<MichaelRaskin> For the scale in the context where scale is nowhere close?
<MichaelRaskin> I am pretty sure claiming you are doing it for true scale is just a part of the dance to attach to something with actual scale
<MichaelRaskin> (I do respect Musk more than Bezos because Musk actually _has_ a true megalomaniac project, which I also happen to find impressive, and Bezos is all about monopolising)
* joepie91 has to detach from the conversation for personal reasons
<MichaelRaskin> Acknowledged. I guess this is a signal for me to finish that thing I am preparingā€¦
<MichaelRaskin> (unrelated to the current conversation)
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<pie_> (no it wasnt :P <joepie91> ok, that detail - "scale for the sake of scale" - was missing from your initial comments :P)
<MichaelRaskin> Well, from the very original it was
<pie_> I should put a cap on the number of times im allowed to alt-tab per day
<MichaelRaskin> I recommend to start with per ten minutes and define the windows to show automatically if you run out
<pie_> haha
<MichaelRaskin> Unlike my opinions on isolating program instances that does not come from extensive experience, though.
<lukegb> ah yes, GitHub's PR search silently discards filters, cool cool
<hodapp> I think I ran into a GitHub oddity/bug with it timing out when I'd search certain things in Nixpkgs' PRs
<joepie91> nixpkgs in general seems to be a good stresstest
<hodapp> for sure
<hodapp> oh, like for GitHub you mean?
<joepie91> yeah :P
<MichaelRaskin> I think it is a bad stresstest. Breaks too many things to be useful at detecting what are the weak links and what can be improved easily and whatever
<eyJhb> I wonder what is the most active repo on github ?
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<MichaelRaskin> I wonder if the mirror of the Linux kernel is formally it just because of all the mirrored commits
<eyJhb> `# Impossible to build anything offline with dotnet` 10/10 comment in nixpkgs
<eyJhb> Well, I guess I am not patching jellyfin then.....
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<aleph-> eyJhb: I mean technically untrue I think.
<aleph-> There was a PR to allow building from source recently.
<joepie91> https://twitter.com/joepie91/status/1388531725043703821 -- ha. of course the first like is from a NixOS maintainer :)
<joepie91> no sheep? šŸ¤”
<MichaelRaskin> Related to Shepherd, I guess
* samueldr grumbles in keyboard implementation details
<siraben> no sheeple :P
<siraben> probably shepard, yeah
<drakonis> shepherd is guix's init
<drakonis> aint that something
<drakonis> herding sheep.
<gchristensen> hehehe
<gchristensen> thanks, that makes sense
<MichaelRaskin> Not I am considering dynamically linking sinit just for lulz
<drakonis> a risky game you're playing at !
<MichaelRaskin> Now
<MichaelRaskin> Well, that would be a pretty distinctive property of a setupā€¦
<MichaelRaskin> Although I guess Ā«my PID1 is sinit and my initramfs is > 100 MiB, compressedĀ» is distinctive enough
<drakonis> i'm trying to wean off systemd
<gchristensen> why's that?
<drakonis> trying something a bit different
<gchristensen> right on
<MichaelRaskin> Just wait the next systemd release, they will change something
<drakonis> a bit of guix and other niche linux distribtions don't hurd.
<drakonis> hurt
<drakonis> also hurd, because why not.
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<eyJhb> aleph-: There was <3
<eyJhb> Thanks!
<drakonis> but again
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<drakonis> i'm not sure why i'm bringing this discussion up again
<aleph-> eyJhb: np
<eyJhb> Hopefully it will be merged soon. Annoyed that the favorite button is there, instead of the "mark as watched". I favorite NO EPISODES, ever, on my server...
<aleph-> heh
<aleph-> Oh that's neat, python package fails to compile between now and the last commit... despite not touching it in this commit.
<aleph-> Makes sense.
<tomberek> Random thought: there is tons of value in the build-system standardization the nixpkgs represents. Would be interesting to see if its possible to not only output a build artifact for other package managers, but to product build scripts for them too.
<aleph-> Oh wait doy, got it
<gchristensen> tomberek: you \
<gchristensen> can take a nix store closure ande xporte RPMs / debs but you have to create 1 per store path
<tomberek> gchristensen: yeah, i've done things like that. I'm thinking more along the lines of something more native. The external goal being that Nix packaging can produce external build scripts. The external goal would be that Nix starts to be to be the baseline packaging that others are derived from.Ā  A nix2pkgbuild for example.
<samueldr> you could probably do shenanigans within a "runInLinuxVM" with a foreigh OS, too
<manveru> tomberek: i think suse does something like that already
<tomberek> anything people want to hack on today/pair program something/PR review? (no one booked an office hour for the weekend, so got some time)
<manveru> so... we could just do the same and give every package some additional outputs :)
<manveru> (i like how putting "just" into a sentence makes it sound so easy)
* joepie91 is in favour of this idea
<samueldr> manveru just makes it easier
<manveru> ah, i found the thing: https://openbuildservice.org/
<samueldr> just is the most loaded word you can say in project management
<samueldr> it might just be the most loaded word :)
<samueldr> you just need to draw the rest of the owl
<gchristensen> I dunno, Nix means we can be lazy in ways that other package scripts absolutely cannot be
<joepie91> manveru: OBS is neat but definitely doesn't hold a candle to nixpkgs' build tooling :)
<manveru> so let's just quintuple our hydra farm and get building
* manveru hides
<samueldr> gchristensen: I dunno, classical package managers means they can be lazy in ways that Nix absolutely cannot be
<gchristensen> yes
<samueldr> (I'm actually cackling like a maniac at the amount of shade I'm casually throwing)
<gchristensen> for f in $(ls $out/bin); do wrapProgram ...; done ...
<gchristensen> rm -rf $out...
<samueldr> just replace libwhatever's files without rebuilding everything, what could go rong?
<samueldr> wrong*
<gchristensen> hehe
<manveru> i just have absolutely no need for any package managers other than nix these days...
<gchristensen> manveru: same :)
<gchristensen> we make loads of assumptions about how safe we have to be about trampling on other people's files, beacuse there is no way for us to do so
<tomberek> meh... was a random thought.... anything else interesting people are working on?
<gchristensen> I think it could be made to work, with some care :)
<colemickens> drakonis: I'm still here for it at least :)
<colemickens> bagel, coffee, and a guix video before pouring myself back into some nix this afternoon
<drakonis> hehe.
<drakonis> bagels are great.
<aleph-> Eh they're okay
<aleph-> Not a fan personally
* joepie91 does not understand bagels
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<eyJhb> joepie91: What is not to like about awkward bread?
<aleph-> Don't get me started on cream cheese. Blegh
<samueldr> nothing better than having a hole in the middle for the fillings of your sandwich to fall into!
<samueldr> (I like bagels though)
<samueldr> ungodly amount of cream cheese, good ham, good cheese, good pickle, good hot sauce, poppy seed bagel...
<aleph-> Cream cheese should be outlawed
<samueldr> you should be outlawed :o !
<samueldr> (I only know about the cream cheese available here... maybe elsewhere in the world they're bad?)
<aleph-> samueldr: I worked in a bagel shop for a long time
<aleph-> I made a lot of cream cheese it's awful.
<aleph-> I also lived off nothing but bagels for a year or two.
<samueldr> ah, living in something womderful and growing to dislike it, I can see
<samueldr> anyone knows if there's a wayland compositor that does tiling, but automatically scales down windows (based on rules) when not primary?
<samueldr> e.g. I'd like to have browser windows *scaled* down a bit (and resized to fit aspect ratio) rather than just resized when in the "other" column
<samueldr> maybe something like 80% of the original size, and then resized
<samueldr> mainly because so many websites are garbage at smaller widths and heights
<tomberek> samueldr i'm using sway and there are some rules to apply window options to windows based on rules. But not sure about scaling
<__monty__> Bagels I've had have all been too dry. I blame the extra surface area because of the torus shape.
<colemickens> Does wio (plan9 rio -alike) allow per-window/client scaling?
<colemickens> if each window is its own lil compositor, in theory...?
<samueldr> sometimes you just have to love git
<samueldr> says I annoyed to heck by bad design
<__monty__> You can't make me!
<samueldr> __monty__: don't worry, I wasn't serious
<samueldr> looks like I accidentally created a local branch named `origin/nixos-unstable`
<samueldr> so when I rebased something on origin/nixos-unstable
<samueldr> well
<__monty__> : s
<samueldr> that's what you get when you mix unrelated namespaces together
<__monty__> Yesterday git stopped pushing my current branch to github unless I specified both the remote and the branch name.
<samueldr> I still don't know why I can `git push -u some-other-origin` for a new branch... EXCEPT if the origin is named origin, where it know what I want to do, but tells me to use another command instead
<__monty__> Another silly thing is how git always says your local branch is up to date with the remote. But it's a lie because without network access git can't know.
<samueldr> yeah
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<colemickens> bqv: you use guix right? do you miss flakes? is it a non-issue?
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<colemickens> or maybe you just don't mind manually managing imports/pins as in the before-flakes days?
<bqv> I don't use guix extensively, because it doesn't flakes
<colemickens> ack, thanks
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<samueldr> normal brain: using shared libraries
<samueldr> universe brain: use shared libraries, and rebuild all packages depending on that library
<hodapp> doesn't suckless have some slides explaining why shared libraries are literally communism?
<samueldr> probably not the best authority for nuanced opinion