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<srhb>
elvishjerricco: I remember mesa did some optimizations to ensure that certain parts were pinned in a way that optimized around the dual cache topology
<srhb>
elvishjerricco: But whether it's generic in any sense, I don't know
<elvishjerricco>
srhb: Ah, but that does mean it's at least possible to discern which cores share cache; so it's something the kernel *could* optimize for if someone decided to implement it
<samueldr>
gchristensen: canada and japan I know it is, and sharing the same subs IIRC
<samueldr>
gchristensen: up to a canadian being able to just go to a US costco for their glasses prescription
<gchristensen>
nice
<samueldr>
according to wikipedia: Area servedUnited States, Canada, United Kingdom, Australia, Mexico, Japan, China, Taiwan, Spain, France, South Korea, Iceland
<gchristensen>
it turned out they had almost exactly the computer I was wanting and they'd get it to me 3 weeks faster than dell.com
<samueldr>
right, they're often a good choice for big ticket electornic items EVEN if you don't have the membership
<gchristensen>
don't you need a membership?
<samueldr>
yes, by that I meant you factor in the membership cost for a year
<gchristensen>
oh, yah
<gchristensen>
right
<cole-h>
Just get employed by them
<cole-h>
Free membership
<gchristensen>
:D
<samueldr>
and good conditions salary-wise in this province
<cole-h>
And in this one ;)
<gchristensen>
here too
<cole-h>
Well
<cole-h>
I can't speak for salary-wise
<cole-h>
But hourly-wise, it's pretty dang good :P
<samueldr>
right, hourly
<samueldr>
hourly wages, in french, is "salaire", which means it's easy to just bring that false friend into english :)
<cole-h>
Ah
<cole-h>
:P
<samueldr>
just looking at the site, it looks like you can order some (most?) electronics without being a member here
<gchristensen>
huh
<samueldr>
they have "members only" offers
<cole-h>
Got a couple new toys :D
<samueldr>
hm?
<cole-h>
A QMK-supported numpad (since I recently upgraded my keyboard to one that doesn't have a numpad), and a 14TB disk (:
<elvishjerricco>
samueldr: Put a raspberry pi in a 3.5" box with some flash drives, run zfs, and export a zvol somehow :P
<samueldr>
I *think* the tool can also peek at the filesystem on drive
<samueldr>
so uh, dunno :)
<samueldr>
elvishjerricco: I was thinking something like that on NVME for laptops
<samueldr>
can't stick a raspberry pi in a laptop
<samueldr>
(yes you can)
<samueldr>
(but you know what I mean)
<elvishjerricco>
samueldr: I think the drawback of the idea is that you can't replace the failed component alone, so it only ensures reliability, not recoverability
<samueldr>
well
<samueldr>
I was about to write about that
<samueldr>
I'd really like taking a hit in storage space for that reliability; assuming the tooling is there to tell you when you're in a degraded state
<elvishjerricco>
I learned a tiny bit about nvme namespaces a week or two ago though, and that could be a pretty cool way to do this already; though gchristensen informed me almost no nvme actually supports multiple namespaces
<gchristensen>
there s plenty of fun to be had even if you only have one ns
<elvishjerricco>
gchristensen: How so?
<samueldr>
imagine a "600GB" nvme, with three physically distinct storage areas, with a RAID-y setup for, what, 400GB storage?
<samueldr>
assuming that on the wire you can add the proper signalling for degraded state
<gchristensen>
last time I had namespace fun I made it appear as if a 1T nvme disk was 1G and handed it back to its owner, who was surprised, amused, and only a little bit unhappy
<samueldr>
maybe SMART can help already
<samueldr>
gchristensen: 1.44MiB would have been great
<gchristensen>
bahaha
<elvishjerricco>
lol
<elvishjerricco>
Will nvme drives that support multiple namespaces allocate stuff more intelligently with namespaces than with partitions?
<gchristensen>
I don't think so
<elvishjerricco>
Ah, so then samueldr you could just make a raidz out of partitions on an ssd
<gchristensen>
I mean, consider that networked storage can be nvme... it starts to make sense that you could use namespaces I guess
<samueldr>
elvishjerricco: yeah, but at that point I could also do it with LVM I guess, or anything, but what I'd pay for is the *integration* and transparent handling
<elvishjerricco>
dunno the perf impact of that on an ssd. On an hdd, actively using multiple partitions is awful
<gchristensen>
instead of a raidz it might make more sense to just crank `copies` up
<samueldr>
and really, the important bit: physically distinct storage :)
<elvishjerricco>
gchristensen: But then you don't get that sweet sweet storage efficiency :P
<gchristensen>
raidz? efficiency? :)
<elvishjerricco>
:P
<elvishjerricco>
I made a 1T zvol on my 6 drive raidz2 the other day and it said "2T USED". That was a real head scratcher till I remembered raidz topology is wild
<gchristensen>
is there a max value for copies?
<elvishjerricco>
3
<gchristensen>
dang
<elvishjerricco>
2 if encryption is enabled
<gchristensen>
so low
<gchristensen>
`zfs set copies=10000`
<elvishjerricco>
They hard coded fields for 3 copy address in the block pointer format
<gchristensen>
fair enough
<elvishjerricco>
And encryption repurposed the third one for some encryption metadata
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<sphalerite>
samueldr: linux on ntfs? WHYYYYYYY
<samueldr>
I never ended up doing it, but in that particular instance: professor didn't know
<sphalerite>
yeah but… idk
<samueldr>
but I *really* wanted to ntfs-3g it
<samueldr>
at that point in time I didn't know enough about the boot process to do it, I think
<samueldr>
really, it's a professor that wasn't even really a compsci professor at the core, and was on his way out to retirement soon enough
<sphalerite>
gchristensen: hey, raidz efficiency is great when you have 20 disks!
<samueldr>
the exact definition of a professor that reads the course material with you, rather than teach knowledge :/
<sphalerite>
>_<
<sphalerite>
I wonder if you know enough about the boot process now :pp
<samueldr>
I'm pretty sure this is feasible, probably needs something for modes, especially for +x, but you probably can deal with it by treating every file as +x
<sphalerite>
yeah, in the past when I mounted FAT or NTFS stuff it would make all files executable
<sphalerite>
I'm sure it's a mount option
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<eyJhb>
At the risk of getting a hit bounty on my head, I still use NTFS for storage in my server. But that is because, most of my family is on Windows. So it just makes sense, when it started with NTFS, and just never changed it... (family files)
<sphalerite>
do you have backups? :p
<eyJhb>
I have backups, that are NTFS as well :|
<eyJhb>
And then I think my brother and my dad has a old copy of the disk
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<ashkitten>
i have... a small amber crt i'm gonna set up as a system monitor with an nvidia jetson running netbsd
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<eyJhb>
Wondering, did anyone bet on the US Election?
<eyJhb>
Mic92: `Ignore Ctlr-C: Cleanup in progress... Don't be so impatient human!` don't tell me what not to do! :(
<FRidh>
isn't that why it goes so slow in nevada
<gchristensen>
somebody ctrl-c'd it and it is trying to clean up while also finishing the counting?
<eyJhb>
They just have a single person counting it, that looses track sometimes. " 500321, 500322, 500323, 50032... Where was I?"
<NinjaTrappeur>
Do you have a trick to share a derivation between two computers having their internet inbound firewalled?
<NinjaTrappeur>
s/derivation/nar/
<philipp[m]>
Whats your favorite CAD software in nixpkgs?
<gchristensen>
NinjaTrappeur: can you wireguard?
<__monty__>
philipp[m]: Inkscape and kicad : )
<philipp[m]>
I was thinking about lnkscape but thought I'd try some proper cad :)
<__monty__>
I'm having a unicode display related bug and it only shows up in nix-shell and direnv+lorri environments. Is there some sort of git bisect like tool to narrow it down to which set of env vars matter?
<NinjaTrappeur>
gchristensen: ah, indeed, that might be a way to go.
<NinjaTrappeur>
I was thinking about something around wormhole
<gchristensen>
yeah that could work
<gchristensen>
I wish there was a neat cli utility to do udp holepunching
<gchristensen>
so youcould ssh -o ProxyCommand="nc-holepunch..."
<NinjaTrappeur>
That could be nice indeed :)
<viric>
Anyone using flakes?
<viric>
grmbl. some bash problems.
<viric>
$ echo "$installPhase"
<viric>
make install PREFIX=$out
<viric>
$ $installPhase
<viric>
install -c -d ut/bin
<viric>
what happens here with $out? It's like it's picking "$o" + "ut"
<gchristensen>
that's make for ya
<gchristensen>
$(out)
<viric>
But that line is for bash
<viric>
I need some 'eval' I guess
<viric>
$ eval "$installPhase" #this works
<viric>
thank you gchristensen
<MichaelRaskin>
Why Wine, of all things, refuses to work with non-user-owned (but rwx) home directory??
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<__monty__>
Anyone know why ls might be showing me escaped bytes(?) in nix-shells? http://ix.io/2DjX
<MichaelRaskin>
Well, what are $LANG $LC_ALL $LOCALE_ARCHIVE $MULTIBYTE ?
<__monty__>
LANG and all the LC_* variables are identical and neither of LOCALE_ARCHIVE or MULTIBYTE are not set in either environment.
<MichaelRaskin>
Hmm. $SHELL ?
<__monty__>
fish and bash respectively but ls shows emoji in a non-nix-shell bash.
<MichaelRaskin>
I mean, I did expect better of Trump 4 years ago, because his track record as corrupt high-rise fraudster did look more promising than his run as authoritarian-wannabe-but-incompetent tuirned out to be
<pie_>
MichaelRaskin: ah.
<infinisil>
cole-h: Yesss just saw it too
<MichaelRaskin>
From skimming 5-38, it was kind of on the level ]
<MichaelRaskin>
Pennsylvania is counting bluer and bluer batches, and Biden has been ahead by 24 hours by now, and won Nevada which nobody calls, and probably won Arizona or Georgia or both
<MichaelRaskin>
Just the question of when the news networks consider it better to declare at least one of these clearP
<cole-h>
Let's see how many of these lawsuits they win 🙂
<cole-h>
"Same pen" 🤔
<cole-h>
I wonder how they could tell from 6-12 feet away 🤔
<infinisil>
Lol
<gchristensen>
infirmities? I think he's projecting.
<cole-h>
😱
<cole-h>
Impossible!
<MichaelRaskin>
It's more like, how you can distinguish same-brand mass-produced pens, they _aim_ to be same pen a million times over
<__monty__>
MichaelRaskin: No, in my normal env it's a fish function that wraps apple's /bin/ls (for colors mostly). In the nix-shell it's core-utils ls.
<MichaelRaskin>
(yeah, you can, it takes many minutes and a microscope)
<viric>
why are things so big these days? 1GB of clang, 1GB of mesa drivers, 1GB of gcc, 1GB of qt...
<MichaelRaskin>
__monty__: does coreutils-ls behave the same in the normal env?
<__monty__>
MichaelRaskin: *But* I encountered this first with ranger, ran from source in both environments.
<__monty__>
So I think the difference in ls's might be a red herring.
<MichaelRaskin>
ranger might use ls from environment, though?
<MichaelRaskin>
Can we just override Python's getenv to trace what variables it touches?
<__monty__>
Oh, I can just run the ls from the store. And in my normal environment it displays unicode just fine.
<MichaelRaskin>
Aha, that's nice... Maybe ltrace it to see what it getenv's ?
<__monty__>
> pkgs.ltrace.meta.platforms
<{^_^}>
[ "i686-linux" "x86_64-linux" ]
<__monty__>
:'(
<MichaelRaskin>
Well, whatever proper tracing is called on Darwin
<gchristensen>
dtrace
<infinisil>
Reddit is struggling to not be down
<cole-h>
Yeah lol
<cole-h>
I was just trying to browse r/rust
<cole-h>
Kept getting 503s
<infinisil>
Just what could be the cause of this I wonder...
<viric>
clang is 7.1.0 (1GB) and clang-tools is 10.0 (another 1GB)
<MichaelRaskin>
People reading headlines and not even basic trendline projections, I guess
<MichaelRaskin>
Although in the warped reality of 2020, the exact wording of a news headline _is_ news itself
<MichaelRaskin>
viric: and Nix even makes you keep two copies, before and after update!
<viric>
MichaelRaskin: I'm amazed by the amount of disk I need in nix store
<pie_>
MichaelRaskin: i used the patches because i wanted to put wine directories in the store
<MichaelRaskin>
pie_: Yeah, can understand, but I am fine with a prepopulated profile in store getting copied and chmod on start. For Firefox, I do not care enough about Wine profile
<__monty__>
Oh, dtrace, you remain an enigma to me: "dtrace: failed to execute /bin/ls: dtrace cannot control executables signed with restricted entitlements"
<__monty__>
Am I not allowed to dtrace the binaries that come with the system? o.O
<sphalerite>
__monty__: that's just crazy talk, next you'll be claiming that you actually own your computer.
<pie_>
MichaelRaskin: that would probably be simpler than what i was trying to do
<gchristensen>
you might need to reboot and disable SIP
<MichaelRaskin>
pie_: Firefox definitely wants to write to its own profile anyway, too!\
<pie_>
yeah the "simpler" involves not trying to use an overlay fs
<pie_>
which i couldnt get working at the time
<MichaelRaskin>
Yeah, overlays are tricky
<__monty__>
gchristensen: Yeah, it complains about SIP when run without sudo. I'm just not sure of the downsides. I do know I only run into it in situations like this and it's annoying.
<gchristensen>
the reason they do that is a defense in depth against malware which gains privilege, to reduce its ability to deeply examine the system
<__monty__>
Well, dtrace is clearly not for me. I can't find any SO-level explanations of how to use it, especially specifically for env var access.
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<__monty__>
The dtrace documentation and tutorials I can find really sound like "Run dtrace with the probe you need." `dtrace -l | wc -l` -> 24000 probes, okaaaaaay.
<__monty__>
It seems like super powerful tooling but there's no learning curve to speak of.
<MichaelRaskin>
Erm, if you can already just send a SIP packet and NAT will handle it correctly, maybe you do not need the _interesting_ part of slipstream
<pie_>
lol
<MichaelRaskin>
But yes, using some mix of protocols to make sure NAT handles at least one of them properly might become more popular…
<viric>
I have not seen any p2p thing abuse SIP NAT routers that way
<viric>
Moreover, I have barely seen SIP to work ever, if NAT is in the middle.
<viric>
btw what's up with my 'git', that it reports a "new file: ..." in changes NOT staged?
<viric>
And then it reports "Files not followed: ..."
<MichaelRaskin>
viric: what is unacceptably low reliability for a user, is typically critically high exploitation risk when turned around…
<viric>
I imagine some companies might have proper NAT to make SIP work. I don't think a usual home router does anything good about it
<viric>
But does it impact TCP?
<viric>
SIP NAT is already doubtful to me for UDP... for TCP it should be much worse.
<gchristensen>
[grahamc@Petunia:~]$ ls | wc -l
<gchristensen>
562
<gchristensen>
this is bad news
<etu>
gchristensen: tmpfs for /home fixes that for you :D
<gchristensen>
yeah but then I'd have lost some real gems in here
<samueldr>
time to mkdir "old crap" and shove everything in there
<etu>
It just means I have other directories than home for storing garbage :)
<samueldr>
you've never lived until you had to search through old crap/old crap/old crap/old crap to find some old crap
<gchristensen>
I have that across a decade of machines that I just grep through heh
<__monty__>
Note that mupdf the client is basically just a software demo for mupdf the library.
<viric>
none of those frontends has a "Menu bar". /o\
<viric>
uzbl people.
<__monty__>
I guess most of them fit the "minimal" design philosophy.
<__monty__>
Maybe bug the developers of your favorite pdf UI to include support for a mupdf backend? : )
<viric>
the learn-keys philosophy
<viric>
"read the docs and learn keys before use"
<__monty__>
I don't mind it much, both mupdf-gl and zathura have keybinding listing. So once you know the right key you're in business : )
<viric>
Because reading a PDF requires only up and down, right? grmbl. Minimalistic and dozens of keys each to learn reading docs.
<viric>
Minimalistic for the PROGRAM WRITER, not the user
<__monty__>
Horses for courses.
<__monty__>
I use them because the rendering is both faster and of higher quality.
<viric>
what is that?
<viric>
about horses
<__monty__>
An expression, different people prefer different things.
<viric>
ahh
<__monty__>
I'm pretty sure you can just scroll with a mouse in zathura? I do prefer a keyboard based UI both when reading and when searching through books.
<viric>
I'll give a try to llpp
<ashkitten>
hmm i need to figure out how to make netbsd output to this monitor
<ashkitten>
it's currently only outputting to serial
<samueldr>
use a raspberry pi which's sole task is to display the serial output on its hdmi output
<samueldr>
wait, you meant a _practical_ way?
<ashkitten>
samueldr: that's kinda what i'm trying to do, but with netbsd on a jetson tk1
<samueldr>
haha
<ashkitten>
like, i want to have a program running on my computer that just pipes stuff to this crt through the jetson
<ashkitten>
need ky0ko to help me but she's asleep
<ashkitten>
i'm also potentially gonna write some code for the netbsd framebuffer driver that trims the usable screen area down and moves the image around by a pixel at a time to reduce burn-in
<ashkitten>
i kinda wish i just Had A VT220
<gchristensen>
what would it look like for ~ to be a unique directory for every new launched gui, named for the current time, with old ~'s aging out
<MichaelRaskin>
Actually, quite a bit of things just sign and move on when they have literally no ~
<MichaelRaskin>
Also, quite a few things, like LibreOffice, have annoying first-run pop-ups
<gchristensen>
yeah
<MichaelRaskin>
And for some things you probably want not just a fresh home, but something partially prepopulated
<gchristensen>
right. probably some things bind mounted in
<MichaelRaskin>
Bind-mounted, bind-ro-mounted, or copied
<MichaelRaskin>
Liked Firefox profile you probably want copied
<samueldr>
I previously thought about per-program $HOME for bad programs, but since environment is simply inherited in sub-processes rather than asking a session process to launch a new process, it could get annoying e.g. starting a gui program from another gui program
<MichaelRaskin>
I am considering giving my contained sessions stubs to request a launch of a differently contained thing
<gchristensen>
yes, I do that
<samueldr>
yeah, that's the solution, but last time I thought about it I didn't really know about how systemd could help out
<samueldr>
so I really didn't know how to approach doing something like that
<samueldr>
inheriting environment is so messy
<samueldr>
*especially* with the (lack of) environmental hygiene in Nixpkgs
<gchristensen>
+1 running all my GUIS with empty paths has revealed ... things.
<samueldr>
I wasn't even thinking about PATHy things, but wrapped binaries
<samueldr>
how do those fancy things like appimage deal with a container'd process wanting to execute a system's binary?
<samueldr>
e.g. if I ran an appimage'd firefox and opened a libreoffice (not appimage'd) document?
<samueldr>
substitute appimage with any other similar tech
<gchristensen>
portals I assume
<samueldr>
now you're thinking with portals
<samueldr>
but memes aside; I was hoping for someone that knew to point out the methods :)
<gchristensen>
did you see the portal reloaded?
<samueldr>
no
<samueldr>
I know next to nothing about xdg portals
<gchristensen>
it is a mod which adds a third portal which goes 20yrs in to the future
<samueldr>
oh, that's not xdg then
<pie_>
that would be a pretty cool operating system feature
<ashkitten>
im still just unpacking source tarballs
<abathur>
viric I do; I meant pressured to clean up old crap by not having the space to deeply nest copies
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<viric>
ouch what is that thing required to build in 'nix develop' or shell without debug info?
<viric>
some env var
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<viric>
hardeningDisable = [ "fortify" ];
<viric>
that's still valid?
<viric>
it looks like so
<viric>
mpf. I have a segfault that happens only with -O2. And I have no clue with gdb what happens, given the O2.
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<lovesegfault>
lovely
<pie_>
viric: i think there is a separate O option for debug symbols or something
<pie_>
like -g or -Og and i think it also has multiple levels
<pie_>
dunno if that helps
<pie_>
like, maybe you can enable some amount of debug info even though youre optimizing
<viric>
I was a bit stupid - not testing the branch with the bug together with disabling optimisation.
<viric>
I had to set NIX_HARDENING_ENABLE="" first to disable the nix -O2, but this project (poppler) ALSO uses a hidden override that sets -O2 in Debug. Easy to go mad with such traps.
<viric>
same aboveI wrote "to build ... without debug info", and I meant "with"