gchristensen changed the topic of #nixos-chat to: NixOS but much less topical || https://logs.nix.samueldr.com/nixos-chat
<andi-> Is it that abstraction on top of ASM? :-)
<gchristensen> yes :)
<andi-> So it is working as intended
<gchristensen> and should be used sparingly
<samueldr> real abstract
<andi-> Yeah only for critical software. All the toy and research stuff can be written in Python/Haskell ;-)
<gchristensen> troll
<samueldr> trolling us hurd now
<lovesegfault> Was that "guix is full hurd now" thing true?
<samueldr> kind of, that they have a hurd target going
<V> that was an april fools but they have made significant progress
<lovesegfault> is hurd even at 1.0?
<V> no
<V> 0.9 was 4 years ago
<V> initial release: 30 years ago
<lovesegfault> the website is pretty rough on a big screen
<lovesegfault> This thing is older than me
<V> mmh
<makefu> i am sure they are scared of going 1.0 because people would assume that hurd can actually be used
<gchristensen> at least they presumably review patches before applying them to the "stable" release
<andi-> gchristensen: I kinda mean it. It must have a reason none of the software I am running on this box right now is written in a language that isn't C or C++ without me trying to avoid others...
<gchristensen> hubris :)
<gchristensen> we can't keep it all in our head to do it
<gchristensen> it'd be cool to publish a guide on securing nix-daemon as a public thing
<cole-h> "as a public thing" -> ?
<cole-h> Like, public document, or public nix-daemon? :P
<gchristensen> like a shared nix-daemon
<cole-h> :o
<gchristensen> there are a lot of these, more than you might think
<gchristensen> buildkite / ci things, for example
<gchristensen> ofborg
<cole-h> How shared? Around-the-world-shared, or between-users-shared?
<lovesegfault> Huh, the pypy build seems to have frozen
<lovesegfault> I don't see it in nix-top but it hasn't failed
<andi-> wait :-)
<lovesegfault> there's a nix-daemon process pinning a core, maybe that's it
<samueldr> if it's a remote build, maybe compressing the output
<samueldr> to send
<lovesegfault> it is a remote build, but the build doesn't seem completed
<lovesegfault> just frozen at 78%
<samueldr> odd
<lovesegfault> yeah, idk what's going on
<lovesegfault> tempted to ctrl-c it
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<gchristensen> my computer battery is apparently 105% full
<samueldr> about to burst?
<gchristensen> not swelling yet....
<V> forbidden pillow
<gchristensen> spicy tea bag
<samueldr> nothing better than knowing how many spicy pillows there must be in residential units around you
<samueldr> (if you live in a flat or something like that)
<V> There's a pillow at my house that has a battery print on it
<V> it's highly cursed
<samueldr> a pillow that's made to look like those foil pouch batteries?
<V> it looks like a phone battery, yeah
<infinisil> ,permalink
<infinisil> #1000
<{^_^}> https://github.com/NixOS/nixpkgs/issues/1000 (by kevinfish, 7 years ago, closed): aspell dictionary
<infinisil> ,permalink
<infinisil> Ayyy
* infinisil deploys that
<infinisil> But yeah samueldr, you might want to prevent mentions from {^_^} pinging you :P
<samueldr> not as if people didn't link already previously
<andi-> infinisil: thanks! Perfect request to feature cycle.
<infinisil> feature cycle?
<samueldr> "request to feature" cycle
<infinisil> Ah!
<samueldr> probably has a one-word german word to that
<andi-> does it?
<samueldr> don't you?
<andi-> it's kinda late
<samueldr> I don't know german, but isn't half of your words just more words shoved together?
<infinisil> I think it's mainly nouns
<samueldr> yeah
* infinisil will disconnect for a bit because the machine nixbot is deployed to will go through a znc update as well
<gchristensen> sheesh, there is so much to AWS and I am rusty.
<infinisil> Does it have to be AWS?
<gchristensen> yea
* andi- looks at his personal Org account and the overhead it takes to login to the sub accounts without manually adding users there...
<gchristensen> heh yeah it is a lot
<infinisil> For my personal stuff at least, digital ocean is good enough
<andi-> I did that setup while I was investigating creating a proper CI for nixops-aws..
<andi-> I might use it again when I finally use LazySSH to boot on-demand aarch64 builders
<infinisil> Idea: Could you "record" the replies of a server, such that you could e.g. run a pure test against aws?
<andi-> There are mocks for the AWS api
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<infinisil> ,permalink
<infinisil> Oh, didn't go through a znc update after all, it is deployed :)
<andi-> The idea was to actually deploy an instance, test that you can deploy/update/reboot and finally destroy it again
<andi-> AWS gives you only 32GB of RAM for the ARM machines. I hope that will be enough for the next few years of Firefox builds.
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<infinisil> Slap some swap on there!
<andi-> One of the features in Nix I could use for this idea is discovering the max jobs per builder from them instead of from a static config file..
<gchristensen> I have a consul-template thing for that but it got a bit annoying for personal reasons
<drakonis> wooow i hate github's searching
<drakonis> it looked up a commit from may this year instead of september
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<JJJollyjim> I feel like a dynamic jobs-per-builder thing could be useful, which considers current memory usage before accepting a job
<samueldr> really pretty straightforward, and except than requiring data files for layouts/compose layouts, it's all self-contained without X dependencies https://github.com/samueldr/demo-xkbcommon/blob/development/test.c
<samueldr> with a name such as xkbcommon my instinct was that it would be deeply entangled with X
<samueldr> at this point systemd should rename tmpfiles.d to filesystemeditor.d
<nicolas[m]> random question: why is it that my computer fails to hibernate when memory usage is above 50% with 100% of the swap available? (with the swap being 2x the amount of ram)
<samueldr> hibernation works?
<samueldr> ;)
<samueldr> big word of caution: the bootloader, and stage-1, is not aware of the generation it hibernated from
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<nicolas[m]> It works if my system uses less than 50% of my system memory
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<samueldr> (joking aside, I really don't know)
<samueldr> dmesg has anything useful?
<samueldr> can you trivially test it, e.g. a program that reserves a set amount of memory?
<nicolas[m]> that was the next step I wanted to try
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<samueldr> or even the full system journal, rather than only dmesg
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<energizer> what could be happening here? https://bpa.st/U62A
<samueldr> `file ffmpeg`
<nicolas[m]> ownership?
<energizer> ./ffmpeg: ELF 64-bit LSB executable, x86-64, version 1 (SYSV), dynamically linked, interpreter /lib64/ld-linux-x86-64.so.2, for GNU/Linux 2.4.0, stripped
<samueldr> >> interpreter /lib64/ld-linux-x86-64.so.2
<samueldr> ELF binaries, when dynamically linked, have to be started by an actual program, here it's interpreter /lib64/ld-linux-x86-64.so.2
<samueldr> which is not available on your NixOS system
<samueldr> compare with file $(readlink -f $(which bash))
<samueldr> I would hazard a guess that this is an ffmpeg from "somewhere else" and not from a Nix build
<energizer> right
<supersandro2000> IIRC the same happens when you use a shebang which does not exist
<samueldr> similar result, different in how it fails, but basically the equivalent for non-binaries
<samueldr> the interpreter is basically an ELF's shebang, in a way
<samueldr> (more subtle than that, because that's only true for dynamic executables)
<lovesegfault> Does anyone know what STM stand for?
<lovesegfault> enableParallelBuilding = true; # almost no parallelization without STM
<lovesegfault> context
<lovesegfault> this is the pypy nix pkg
<lovesegfault> Aha
<lovesegfault> gchristensen++
<{^_^}> gchristensen's karma got increased to 375
<gchristensen> bask in the glory aws autoscaling describe-auto-scaling-instances --output json | jq -r '.AutoScalingInstances[] | .InstanceId' | xargs aws ec2 describe-instances --instance-ids | jq -r '.Reservations[] | .Instances[] | "root@" + .PublicIpAddress + " " + .Architecture + "-linux /var/lib/hydra/queue-runner/keys/aws 1 1 big-parallel,nixos-test"'
<energizer> heh
<energizer> shouldnt it be serverless tho, with each build being a lambda?
<gchristensen> I would prefer that yes
<abathur> *grumble intensifies*
<samueldr> hm?
<samueldr> I was curious, and looking at desciptions of lambda... doesn't seem plausible
<samueldr> >> execution time from 1 to 900 seconds
<samueldr> in addition to 128-3008 MB of RAM limits
<samueldr> not sure if it is different than what is listed there, in wikipedia, though
<energizer> i thought there was another aws serverless product with higher limits
<samueldr> I'm really not hip with amazon's offerings, so maybe there is!
<abathur> I'll probably have to wait for Alanis to show up with the right metaphor for how much it's getting under my skin that the commands that run in 10-80ms are all lacking at least one piece of information I need, while the only command with it all in one place takes like a full second
<energizer> fargate
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<abathur> for reference: largest config: 4 vCPU, Min. 8GB and Max. 30GB, in 1GB increments
<samueldr> abathur: all you really want, you oghta know, is perfect
<samueldr> oh wow
<samueldr> I shot way too fast
<abathur> > spongebobify "Pricing is per second with a 1-minute minimum. Duration is calculated from the time you start to download your container image (docker pull) until the Task terminates, rounded up to the nearest second."
<{^_^}> value is a function while a set was expected, at (string):291:66
<abathur> oh oops
<abathur> I'm too tired to figure out how I broke it
<abathur> *too tired to _want_ to
<samueldr> abathur: [Excuses] for [Big Sur]? [Incomplete] [Still]?
<samueldr> uh
<samueldr> wrong first word, somehow I didn't write what I wanted
<samueldr> and now I really don't know what I wanted to write
<samueldr> but anyway, it seems there's so much in there you can use in only the titles to produce sentences
<abathur> "These R the Thoughts"
* abathur twitches
<samueldr> there's even "big sur" to perefectly describe your pain
<abathur> I wonder if I'd finish this or go crazy first if I committed to playing it nonstop until this is done
<samueldr> which?
<abathur> luckily big sur is a bonus track that isn't on spotify
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<elvishjerricco> Finally switched my iPhone Reddit client from Narwhal to Apollo. At launch, Apollo wasn't nearly as good but it's so much better
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<lovesegfault> I love this video so much
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<lovesegfault> When I need overrideAttrs _and_ override which one comes first again?
<lovesegfault> I _think_ it's overrideAttrs, but I don't remember
<energizer> i would think override
<energizer> otherwise you're building twice
<energizer> right?
<energizer> also, override needs a better name
<lovesegfault> Hmm, even with override first I can't get this working
<lovesegfault> The `overrideAttrs` works
<lovesegfault> but the packageOverrides seem to go by unnoticed
<ashkitten> hmmm does darling work on the darwin kernel?
<ashkitten> i guess that is to say, is there a way to run macos apps on the open source darwin kernel without macos
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<lovesegfault> ashkitten: AIUI the answer is ostensibly "no"
<lovesegfault> most macos apps rely on the (proprietary) userland facilities
<ashkitten> yeah but darling attempts to reimplement those proprietary components
<ashkitten> it's like wine but for macos
<lovesegfault> pretty cool then
<lovesegfault> Although, every time I've needed wine it has failed me :P
<ashkitten> wine has gotten a lot better lately
<lovesegfault> Let's see if I can get roon running now
<ashkitten> "all platforms"
<ashkitten> "please visit this page on a mac or windows pc"
<lovesegfault> Yeah, it's a joke
<ashkitten> it is?
<ashkitten> it wasn't very funny then :p
<lovesegfault> :P
<ashkitten> brb gonna release my software on all platforms (haiku and tizen)
<insep_> are you releasing it on plan9?
<ashkitten> what's plan9 /s
<insep_> when everything else fails
<lovesegfault> uh, what attrs do I want to have wine + winetricks in an nix-shell?
<lovesegfault> there's a few different wines
<ashkitten> when will hydra build wineWow...
<lovesegfault> ashkitten: it works!
<ashkitten> lovesegfault: congrats
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<patagonicus> Soo. After verifying that I have the original charger for it the Dell support gave me a master password for my bios - but it doesn't work.
<patagonicus> Also there's some really weird spelling and typing mistakes in the messages. No way is that a native German speaker doing the support, but I'm more surprised they are not just copy and pasting phrases.
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<andi-> nice!
<gchristensen> about 100 lines of python and 300 lines of terraform
<joepie91> is there a NixOS wiki page yet with an exhaustive answer to "I have installed this thing, I want a newer version than is in nixpkgs, now what"? that's really written from the perspective of answering that question for different scenarios (simple source tarball patch, needing different build instructions / deps, a module being involved...)
<sphalerite> Is there a tool that can analyse a shell history file and suggest aliases?
<infinisil> sphalerite: Oh that would be neat
<gchristensen> I think I've seen something like that come across lobsters in the past few years
<gchristensen> but if you don't mind trivialness sort and uniq -c
<sphalerite> yeah I've done that before, but wasn't really satisfied with the results
<sphalerite> I've been thinking maybe I should implement a compression algorithm, with relevant debug prints
<gchristensen> maybe abathur could point you in the dircetion to using oil's parser to create an AST of your history and find similar trees
<sphalerite> oooh
<infinisil> grep -oP '(^| +\| +)\K[^ ]+' "$HISTFILE" | sort | uniq -c | sort -nr | head -n100
<infinisil> This is a command I got from lobste.rs :)
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<gchristensen> hrm. it seems aws is too cowardly to take my scaling group to 0
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<gchristensen> anyone doing a monorepo thing but with a set of packages which are kept private?
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<andi-> I have a few of those repos that are private and that qualify as monorepo.
<andi-> not sure what you are asking
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<andi-> I guess I missed the sweatspot to buy the Logitech BRIO *again*. It spiked up to 200€ again
<gchristensen> ouch
<__monty__> In preparation for black friday maybe?
<gchristensen> to make it look cheaper?
<__monty__> To give a "black friday discount" that isn't really a discount at all.
<sphalerite> pretty sure that's not allowed in a number of countries
<__monty__> That doesn't always stop people though.
<joepie91> not like anyone does anything against it when it happens though
<__monty__> Maybe they can work around such limitations by saying this was a limited time discount and the next one's a limited time discount too?
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<abathur> sphalerite: I've had a similar curiosity, though I don't actually use many aliases so I haven't tried to make anything really happen there
<abathur> though I have been databasing my history for a while, which I see as a helpful precursor to all sorts of fun
<sphalerite> abathur: I don't use many either, but I feel like there are a lot of things that I _should_ use aliases or similar for
<abathur> I guess if you broke the commands down into ngrams, the counts of those might be useful; maybe some way to distinguish between ngrams that start with a command first-word and those that don't (parser would help with that (but other parsers, like the one driving shfmt, may be fine--I'm using Oil's parser because it's aspiring to handle nearly all of bash correctly...)
<abathur> oh sure, yeah
<abathur> I just queried my database for my top 50 commands and there are quite a few that probably wouldn't make a bad alias
<abathur> my memory isn't amazing, so attaching new terse and likely non-semantic names to common commands just doesn't strike me as something that will be a non-trivial improvement for me
<__monty__> I'm not big on aliases because it'll be like typing dvorak, whenever you need to do something at another machine you look like you don't even computer.
<abathur> part of the reason I'm databasing the commands though is that I have been thinking I'd like 1) some sort of contextual "show me the things I run here, I've forgotten one" command; and 2) to identify common *sequences of commands* and propose a shell function or script wrapping them (semantically!)
<__monty__> That would be cool. Added a git subcommand recently because I found I was doing repetitive things.
<__monty__> Fish's directory-based history takes care of the first part mostly though.
<abathur> I mean ~here on a few different axes and in a few different ways, but yeah, directory gets part of it
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<__monty__> Like, not suggesting git commands unless you're in a git repo?
<abathur> yes, or like, suggesting commands that very often get run next after your previous command, etc.
<__monty__> Hmm, I find the mental model of a mostly static history stack useful often. "Up 3 times gets me that command again; type another command; ok now it's up 4 times." If history gets too smart you have to check each time you press up.
<__monty__> Bit of an uncanny valley.
<abathur> yeah
<__monty__> If it's only the current suggestion and history isn't mucked with too much that wouldn't be a factor though.
<abathur> I roughly agree so I'd probably use a separate command or only sit on a specific bind or something
<abathur> haven't thought that far :)
<sphalerite> I do use reverse-i-search a ridiculous amount
<__monty__> I like fish's implementation of that, you're doing a reverse search as soon as you enter anything and press up.
<sphalerite> tried it, wasn't such a fan
<sphalerite> though maybe I just didn't give it enough time
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<insep_> i love fish, use it on everything including my phone
<sphalerite> I love fish. I had the tastiest salmon the other day.
<patagonicus> The only slightly annoying thing for me is that I either have to rewrite stuff before sharing it with coworkers or add a comment saying that it's fish syntax. But that's well worth it.
<patagonicus> And my bash skills are still good enough to rewrite stuff without running into any of the pitfalls. :D
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<lovesegfault> So, what do I do if I have a pkg that, for aarch64-linux, takes like 4h to build? Isn't hydra going to time out the build every time?
<lovesegfault> (The culprit is pypy)
<lovesegfault> (It's a single-threaded build the whole way)
<lovesegfault> (cc. andi- )
<hexa-> set meta.timeout
<hexa-> not sure if that is the knob
<andi-> hydra has a bit of an issue with build timeouts. If you have a build target that has a timeout of 1 second and that depends on pypy then pypy will time out after 1 second.
<lovesegfault> O.O
<gchristensen> wow
<cole-h> uh
<andi-> look at 1464a412ff08e30469767d13f5295504a4b6ef07
<lovesegfault> Uh, also, this is confusing:
<andi-> and the corresponding hydra job
<lovesegfault> this eval has my commit in it
<lovesegfault> but pypy isn't being built for aarch64-linux
<lovesegfault> or at least if I search "pypy" it only shows the x86_64 jobs
<lovesegfault> (commit is 7edf1ced82d7ff951fce735ee60e48f4e34b0066)
<andi-> leons: easy, aarch64 is not a supported system
<andi-> err lovesegfault ^
<andi-> limitedSupportedSystems contains it but that only pulls in nixos tests for aarch64 (and their dependencies0
<lovesegfault> Huh
<andi-> that is why there is an aarch64 jobset
* lovesegfault goes looking
<lovesegfault> Oh, but there's no `unstable*-aarch64`?
<andi-> which builds all of nixpkgs
<lovesegfault> TIL there's a trunk job
<lovesegfault> I thought it was just trunk-combined
<andi-> and there aarch64-linux is supported architecture
<gchristensen> legacy, babbbbbbbbby.
<lovesegfault> what the heck does trunk-combined combine then?
<andi-> flakes will surely improve all that ;)
<gchristensen> (exxxxxxxxtra b's pppppppppprovided by my laptop's IO being sssssssssssssssssssssssssssss eventssss)
<gchristensen> -combined means nxos + nixpkgs combined
<cole-h> lol
<andi-> lovesegfault: supportedSystems nixpkgs + nixos tests and also nixos tests for limited supported systems
<andi-> so if you run any aarch64-linux machine tracking any nixos channel is most likely not fun.
<gchristensen> presumably named that from back when nixpkgs and nixos were different repos
<gchristensen> it is not ufn
<lovesegfault> nice
<lovesegfault> they're there
<lovesegfault> but they gon timeout
<andi-> I think it is a nice rabbithold of knowledge that I do not know how I acquired it... I shouldn't have to know it. :(
<gchristensen> +1
<lovesegfault> andi-++
<{^_^}> andi-'s karma got increased to 44
<lovesegfault> for acquiring this cursed knowledge
<andi-> back to writing an update script for cacerts...
<andi-> Can't I have your problems lovesegfault?!?
<gchristensen> hehehe
<lovesegfault> andi-: I will sell them to you
<gchristensen> bash should have a nice function for windowing over a list
<lovesegfault> gchristensen: Oh, you don't know? It's the {[@&*^^](#@**&^&()())[]} operator
<andi-> bash should be used to bootstrap a compiler only and that compiler shall be used to bootstrap haskell and then that is all you need ;)
<cole-h> lovesegfault++ Hehehe
<{^_^}> lovesegfault's karma got increased to like 38, I think
<gchristensen> andi-: haskell? too unsafe. idris or tla+ only
<andi-> gchristensen: here is some bash for you to debug: https://gist.github.com/andir/81945abe0c18f8411540b6afe4744e46
<andi-> why does bash go full escape me on me? Is that revenge for yesterday?
<gchristensen> have you considered going outside?
<andi-> I was thinking about taking a walk in the sun a few hours ago..
<cole-h> heh
<andi-> now the sun is gone.
<andi-> printf debugging also know as bash.
<gchristensen> maybe try it with osh
<gchristensen> its -x output is different
<andi-> I wonder if a setup hook is aware of it's place in the store after travelling through our gigantic stdenv setup...
<andi-> the cacerts derivation has great potential for microptimisation
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<eyJhb> I know this is easy, but our teachers have used 1 so many times for the variance, that we never noticed that our functions need the standard deviation. So 20 courses, where no one really saw it, not even them. An example of if it works it works, but not really
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<abathur> andi-: I don't know why it does that escaping thing, but it doesn't affect matching that I've noticed
<abathur> (and I have noticed it previously)
<andi-> yeah, it was an unrelated issue (the store path containing a nix-support folder that contained the folder again and thus they'd always be different)
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<samueldr> >> 2b) Some firmwares change how they behave, exporting a different DSDT to the OS dependending on if EFI/Boot/bootx64.efi is signed or not (even with secure boot disabled) and their behavior is totally broken when it is not signed. I will post another rant ^W blogpost about this soon. For now lets just say that you should use workaround 1. from above since it simply is a better workaround.
<samueldr> I hate implementations
<samueldr> and people look at me like I'm wrong when I tell them you should be able to replace the boot firmware of your systems with whatever you want
<LinuxHackerman> gchristensen: how is babbbbbbbbby formed
<LinuxHackerman> (I know you already explained to, but I can't just pass on a stupid joke like that when the opportunity presents itself)
<gchristensen> :D
<drakonis> how is babby formed
<drakonis> this one's old
<drakonis> oldie but goodie
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<colemickens> I'm ****ing done with Discord.
<colemickens> Tired of it changing my input device and leaking my asdlfkjalsing audio when my headset is muted.
* colemickens closed source software, not even once.
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<colemickens> Actually, I am willing to go to great lengths to prevent this. Maybe I can permanently hobble the input from this device.
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<makefu> Richard Stallman would approve colemickens' message.
<makefu> colemickens: for you from my almost endless trove of stallman memes: https://img.devrant.com/devrant/rant/r_1002484_qJj6i.jpg
<ashkitten> makefu: homophobic slur? not cool
<gchristensen> oofta
<pie_> this article is terrible https://www.theverge.com/2020/11/17/21571069/microsoft-pluton-processor-security-windows-pc but something about drm and remote cloud updates for your pc
<pie_> please kill this
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<samueldr> it's really unclear how pluton actually does anything from what I've read
<makefu> ashkitten: that was not supposed to be the message but yeah, you are right
<samueldr> at the time it can either be good for everyone, us included, to terrible to everyone, everyone included
<pie_> aha
<ajs124> ashkitten: makefu: I can recommend rms.sexy, if you just want pictures of rms. he's enough of a meme without any text.
<gchristensen> just an TPM in the cpu
<samueldr> "just" a TPM, maybe not
<pie_> what, sgx and whatever wasnt good enough? :P
<samueldr> from what I've gathered, it could be used for DRM too
<ashkitten> i don't want to look at rms or be aware of his existence in general honestly
<gchristensen> “We provide the same APIs as TPM today, so the idea is that anything that can use a TPM could use this.”
<samueldr> or it could be extremely tied to microsoft things
<ashkitten> rms fucking sucks
<ashkitten> sorry, language
<makefu> ajs124: i am sure i went through all of rms.sexy more than once
<samueldr> yeah, even the quote gchristensen quoted really doesn't mean anything :)
<samueldr> but if it really is _only_ a TPM, but in your CPU, and the same in all CPUs
<samueldr> then it's a win
<pie_> drm is literally given as an example
<colemickens> I suspect/hope that chip is about enabling a "reboot into xbox mode" for windows 10 to fix cheating on PC.
<samueldr> yeah
<samueldr> that's the main problem imo, the next step is loss of control to boot anything you like
<ashkitten> it seems like the article is saying that's what it is, just a universal tpm implementation that can be updated
<pie_> its the microsoft uefi debacle all over again?
<pie_> ashkitten: from the cloud~~ (wtf does that even mean? i hope it doesnt mean it automatically tries to update its code using management engine infra :P)
<ashkitten> it said windows update
<samueldr> the microsoft uefi debacle was, imo, never a thing
<samueldr> because it always included the verbiage about requiring it to be able to be disabled by the end-user
<ajs124> I'm still not secure booting, but at least I can still boot third party OSs
<samueldr> but yeah, at the very worst we'll have to waddle through layers of FUD
<pie_> samueldr: right
<samueldr> and you're even able to secure boot third party OSes!
<ajs124> yeah, but it's effort
<pie_> from what i hear uefi is still pretty garbage though
<samueldr> sure
<samueldr> well
<ajs124> also, didn't they suspend something weird recently?
<samueldr> no
<samueldr> it's implementations that are
<pie_> aha
<ashkitten> nothing in the article makes me suspect it's going to be anything special besides just "tpms in consumer devices either don't exist or are broken in various ways and standardizing the implementation will allow us to update the firmware via usual update channels"
<ajs124> so it's just like RSA samueldr? :P
<ashkitten> Irenes[m]: interested in your take on this
<colemickens> I mean, let's remember, the Internet told us for a decade that UEFI was Microsoft's way to kill Linux. And I still don't buy that.
<colemickens> And I don't buy that this chip is about stopping Linux either.
<samueldr> yeah, from the details _known_, I'm not too concerned, but there is space for concern
<samueldr> because not all details are obvious
<samueldr> yeah, UEFI has been depicted as many things, but it certainly not a microsoft thing
<samueldr> UEFI in itself is not perfect, but is not bad
<samueldr> implementations can be and are terrible
<ashkitten> there's always space for concern, and i think there's valid concerns about even the basic act of trying to make all devices use one tpm implementation. but the fact is i've been told that tpms built into consumer devices are usually insecure and untrustworthy anyway
<samueldr> exhibit n: [14:57:37] <samueldr> https://hansdegoede.livejournal.com/23851.html
<pie_> ashkitten: i was *just* thinking whats it going to take them to not make a bad implementation anyway
<samueldr> pie_: courage
<pie_> to be fair this is a bit facetious but these people gave us spectre meltdown and sgx
<pie_> (maybe they even learned from it)
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<pie_> ok im going to be quiet now and wait to see what this brings
<pie_> im such a downer :p
<ajs124> they also brought us x86 in 4g modems in iphones. which isn't relevant, just kind of weird.
<ashkitten> i just want my ps5 controller to work good ;-;
<pie_> samueldr: well...
<samueldr> lol, there's not much that can be done at this point
<pie_> tbf we have all this amazing technology around us
<pie_> but something is always a bit off with the taste...
<samueldr> and it's not like _that_ is the only thing they need to stop third party OSes
<pie_> (maybe i should stop chewing on FR4)
<samueldr> they could just... lock secure boot to microsoft's certs and be done with that
<pie_> like cmoooon lets just build stuff that isnt constantly user hostile FFS
<pie_> would be nice if github could take down the RIAA but hollywood is a strategic cultural interest so :P
<gchristensen> I'm of the opinion that encryption and trustable platform modules are good for the user
<colemickens> pie_: if it doesn't limit my freedom, Pluon seems like a win to the desires that I have from my PC (I want to be able to optionally use it for secure gaming)
<gchristensen> I'm really glad microsoft requires manufactures to include a tpm
<samueldr> gchristensen: when the user is given acces to it
<gchristensen> yea
<samueldr> really, everything hardware should follow the lead of the chromeos hardware team
* samueldr will go through that an n'th time it seems
<samueldr> nah I won't, but basically go read on how the firmware (e.g. bios) is user-replaceable in a trustable manner
<gchristensen> :D
<colemickens> Can you enroll your own keys in a chromebook though? My Pixel 3 (supposedly) lets me enroll my own keys and gives a softer warning on boot.
<samueldr> colemickens: yes, since you can change the whole firmware with whatever you want
<makefu> colemickens: with the latest version of android you however lose safetynet attestation ...
<samueldr> colemickens: but not directly through the default firmware
<colemickens> hm! neat!
<samueldr> colemickens: you could build depthcharge with your own keys
<samueldr> colemickens: or build tianocore for the best UEFI experience
<samueldr> colemickens: or anything else coreboot does, since it's all built on coreboot
<samueldr> colemickens: replacing the firmware is even "safe"!
<samueldr> colemickens: there is a bit of "scary" trust you need to give to a chip that you cannot update, but you can observe its alleged firmware source
<samueldr> colemickens: and if the firmware doesn't work, that chip still allows you to update it
<samueldr> [in recent chromeos devices]
<colemickens> I guess I had kind of known some of this, I had flashed SeaBIOS on one once to boot Linux|Win10.
<samueldr> at that point in time it was less safe, probably, if you flashed SeaBIOS
<samueldr> but same idea, complete control by the end-user
<colemickens> actually it was the newer uefi payload mrchromebox made, but I guess I didn't realize that was replacing depthcharge.
<samueldr> the "safe" part requires Cr50, which is "relatively new"
<samueldr> or uh, you can still open the device and clip on the chip I guess
<colemickens> oh yeah I've not heard of any of this. but wait, they allow disabling write protecting without opening the case? I thought that was the whole point?
<colemickens> maybe you have to do something special to enable "closed-case debugging". anyway, thanks for the rundown again, I do enjoy thinking about this verified booty stuff.
<samueldr> a new process that attests ownership in a safe manner
<samueldr> it still requires presence, and some kind of authority on the hardware _if_ the machine was secure e.g. if it's running the original software
<samueldr> you need to be logged-in as the owner, and run commands in dev mode to do so, those commands use the power button, which is attached directly to the Cr50 as a proof of presence
<samueldr> it takes ~5 minutes
<samueldr> you need to press it multiple times
<samueldr> so it's really hard to do remotely
<colemickens> very cool