<andi->
I was honestly just looking for a kettle with temperature regulation.. Mine has a stupid loose connection for about 3y now and I keep on grumping about it....
<samueldr>
dunno, I would like a Free firmware-enabled way to start my kettle in the morning
<V>
andi-: you could always build that yourself
<samueldr>
but not a "smart" "cloudy" thing
<ajs124>
ooh, I've been thinking if I should get a kettle with a temp dial, myself
<samueldr>
that way when I start my day, the water would be ready much quicker for tea
<andi->
I usually just prepare breakfast while I wait for my hot tea water...
<andi->
hasn't been a concern for me
<gchristensen>
the stove works well for me
<samueldr>
I'm not an european with fancy 220V angry pixies, but still, a real kettle is worth it compared to the stove top
<samueldr>
real electric kettle*
<gchristensen>
get 2 kettles and smash together
<samueldr>
I wish
<ajs124>
if you're in the US, don't you have two phases with 180° phase offset and 110V each? can't you hook up a kettle to that, somehow?
<samueldr>
which, andi-, you would have to understand that it takes maybe about twice as long here to boil!
<samueldr>
ajs124: not necessarily 180°
<samueldr>
it could be 120° for three phases
<andi->
so you are enjoying your tea time twice as long?
<samueldr>
then you get ~204V IIRC
<samueldr>
there's no way I can enjoy anything before drinking or eating something in the morning, so I don't think so
<gchristensen>
ajs124: the plug is massive, too, hehe
<andi->
samueldr: you could convert all the sockets to a proper(tm) system ;)
<samueldr>
the socket is not the power, it's what's distributed on the grid :)
<ajs124>
gchristensen: what do you use? IEC 60309?
<samueldr>
the socket is not the problem*
<ajs124>
ah, no. that's what we use for our 3 phase current, but at 220V per phase
<energizer>
not sure if that makes nix more useful or less useful
<energizer>
if everybody's dev environment is the same because it's just in the browser, there's no 'it works on my machine'
<lovesegfault>
the solution was always getting rid of the machines
<energizer>
will be pretty happy to have an application environment with actual sandboxing
<colemickens>
Gitpod is a free-r version
<energizer>
beer or speech?
<colemickens>
Well, it's built with Theia, an Eclipse component
<colemickens>
and then gitpod is (partially) dual licensed
<colemickens>
but if you just want the "vs code in browser", thats Apache Theia
<colemickens>
Theia + Nix is some galaxy brain stuff that I want to get going, but I suck at npm.
<energizer>
i guess nixos isn't really intended as a daily driver so uncontainerized sandboxing isn't as important as it is in windows/macos/android/ios
<energizer>
hell even ubuntu is using snap
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<eyJhb>
energizer: Not intended as a daily driver??
<energizer>
eyJhb: nix is primarily funded by corporations who want nixos on servers. contrast with windows/macos/android/ios
<eyJhb>
Not entirely sure that is right honestly. But it is a good use case
* lovesegfault
uses NixOS on all his systems
<lovesegfault>
desktop or otherwise
<eyJhb>
Same
<energizer>
you use mobile nixos lovesegfault?
<eyJhb>
But places that would like the same config many places, also desktop e.g. hospitals, libraries
<lovesegfault>
energizer: No, I don't fuck with phones
<eyJhb>
But your comment seemed more targeted against desktop
<eyJhb>
Which is not really true...
<energizer>
sorry i dont follow, which part isn't true?
<eyJhb>
Not being intended as a daily driver
<eyJhb>
Not sure how NixOS is not intended for that
<energizer>
if it were it would have prioritized desktop features like gui installer, gui configuration, application sandboxing
<energizer>
(like the daily driver OSes all have)
<energizer>
i'll admit to some circularity in my argument here :)
<colemickens>
"application sandboxing"
<colemickens>
Also, I don't think lack of features is lack of desire of features necessarily
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<energizer>
not sure what you mean by the quotes
<energizer>
sure everything is about priorities
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* colemickens
isn't bought in on flatpak/snap, I guess
<energizer>
maybe someday we'll be running spectrumOS and be secure, but now any app on my computer can do whatever it wants
<energizer>
+1 qyliss
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<eyJhb>
energizer: ehhh, some of us is actually sandboxing quite a lot :p I want to spend more time on it, but...
<energizer>
eyJhb: how are you doing it?
<eyJhb>
nsjail and a module for it
<energizer>
to complete the sentence, ...but tweag isn't paying anybody to work on desktop features
<eyJhb>
I think the money are in server stuff, which is understandable
<eyJhb>
I have a little dream of getting some libraries to use it for frontend desktop computers.
<eyJhb>
But we already use NixOS for the backends that support them! Thanks to srhb and the team! :D
<energizer>
right nixos' money is in servers, which is why that's where its priorities are
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<eyJhb>
But still, not being a daily driver is putting it far :p Not being like Ubuntu, debian, etc. is something else
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<srhb>
Dunno, I see Tweags focus as being mostly in dev workflow, possibly leaning slightly towards user flow rather than "things that are good for NixOS" -- but right now the direction is changing very fast and without a visibly coherent plan. I'll reserve judgment for later :)
<srhb>
But yes, probably not "desktop" things unless you count developers in that.
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<eyJhb>
srhb: Yeah, maybe! I haven't been in the game for long enough to know
<Taneb>
If someone told me that they'd pay me full time to make NixOS a good desktop OS, I would tell them that I am probably not the right person for the job, but secretly I would be sorely tempted
<eyJhb>
Taneb: Same... :p I would suck at it..
<srhb>
Taneb: There are loads of people in the community that I think would be great fits :)
<eyJhb>
srhb: pressure them into it!
<eyJhb>
With asking kindly
<srhb>
Are you offering to pay? :P
<srhb>
I don't think much pressure would be involved at all ;)
<eyJhb>
With all the money I do not have :p
<eyJhb>
Maybe if I make a really good case for Nix at LEGO. then!
<eyJhb>
I am actually somewhat sure, that if you can make a good case for them, and why it is useful/what it can be used for, then they would be OK with it.
<eyJhb>
srhb: but when will you be offering a frontfacing PC solutions to our libraries with thin clients or something? ;)
<srhb>
I think that's fairly outside my area of expertise... :P Sorry!
<eyJhb>
Damn it srhb... But maybe it should be inside your area of expertise! \s
<eyJhb>
Also wondering, can you namedrop any of the desktop pros you are thinking of?
<srhb>
I'd rather let them do it on their own if they want to. :P
<pie_>
desktop prose
<eyJhb>
Keep your secrets then! :p
<eyJhb>
srhb: if you have time, I have some nix questions in #nixos ;)
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<ar>
Taneb: "good desktop os" is not a well defined problem
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<etu>
Hmm... I recently started to look into flakes and moving some systems to flakes. I like it so far. But it's one habit I have that I would like to keep which is "nix-shell --run fish -p attribute-name" which doesn't work...
<etu>
Any way to make nix-shell commands like that work while using flakes?
<etu>
I of course don't have any channels set up
<etu>
Maybe just set up a channel? But that feels "wrong"
<cole-h>
I don't think many people follow me, but sure :)
<gchristensen>
thanks :)
<worldofpeace>
gchristensen: ooh u quit?
<gchristensen>
ya
<worldofpeace>
aah, I guess "yay" 😸 I remember u saying u were just waiting for the moment
<gchristensen>
=) yeah, turns out today was the day
<srhb>
gchristensen: Grats on freedom! Straight onwards, no break? :)
<gchristensen>
We'll see :)
* srhb
nods
<srhb>
Anyone using a tiling wm on an ultrawide? I feel like I want an ultrawide, but I also feel like workspaces get strictly less powerful.
<srhb>
In general I'm going for more ergonomics, because eeeverything hurts right now, and I've been twisting for my multi screen setups before.
<srhb>
No centering sucks.
<srhb>
And another ergonomics question -- I think I want to try a keyboard with a softer "impact" when the key bottoms out... I hear I should start having opinions on key switches. What should I look for? any names that are good to try out?
<__monty__>
What sort of keyboards do you use currently?
<__monty__>
And have you considered a monitor that fits your field of view all at once?
<srhb>
I... Type on my chiclet laptop built-in.
<srhb>
Hence the joint pain :P
<srhb>
So I guess I will get something that will at least let me try out different switches.
<__monty__>
Hmm, I prefer scissor switches actually. Have you ever tried just an external keyboard? Positioning can be most of the battle.
<srhb>
Like an idiot I got a chiclet external keyboard because I was used to that style, and I felt like that was way worse, because now I had to move my hand to reach the mouse (rather than just thumbing a touchpad below the keyboard on the laptop) with the typing experience being equally bad.
<__monty__>
Well if you've tried it it's time for mechanical switches I guess.
<srhb>
It's also not my wrists, like at all. So I'm also worried that I will be making positioning worse. Augh. :) Hard.
<__monty__>
Moving your hand to the mouse can actually be a good thing though, rather than straining your hand it gets to relax for a bit and change position.
<srhb>
Yeah, I guess that makes sense.
<gchristensen>
srhb: agreed, tiling WMs on an ultrawide are not good
<__monty__>
I do wish my keyboard didn't have arrow cluster and numpad though, would bring the trackpad closer.
<srhb>
gchristensen: Sadface... Guess I'll have to get something asymmetrical.
<srhb>
__monty__: That makes sense.
<gchristensen>
I "float" windows a lot when I'm ultrawide
<srhb>
Maybe I can make xmonad, like, partition one screen into three virtual workspaces.
<__monty__>
You can code up your own layouts so I'm sure that should be possible.
<__monty__>
Whether it's nice UX wise I dunno.
<LnL>
I usually just have 3 vsplits open if I'm on a big screen :)
<__monty__>
I guess my windows are kinda arranged in such a fashion. But I don't use an ultra-wide.
<eyJhb>
Is github just really unstable atm.?
<eyJhb>
Don't think I have gotton any internal server errors, etc. with a nginx frontend before MS took over
<__monty__>
I saw similar complaints yesterday so probably yes?
<eyJhb>
Got a bad gateway, while browsing to my own notificationsk
<cole-h>
Finally got the anu repo cloned :D
<__monty__>
How long did it take?
<eyJhb>
Also, what is it?
<__monty__>
eyJhb: Fwiw, notifications usually seem like the laggiest bit of github outside of huge issues.
<__monty__>
eyJhb: The sequel to Pijul.
<cole-h>
It was very fast. The process, however, took a while because of https timeouts and my gpg-agent not working for SSH authentication (even though it works everywhere else)
<joepie91>
there's already a sequel to pijul?
<__monty__>
No release yet afaik.
<waleee-cl>
it's 1.0.0-alpha, so a flag is needed when installing via cargo
<eyJhb>
I hoped that Docker + NixOS would have been nicer..
<srhb>
cole-h: What's the clone command for the parent repo? :) Took a guess and unwrapped something that wasn't. :P
<cole-h>
srhb: SSH is recommended over HTTPS, so, after adding your SSH key to the nest: `anu clone username@nest.anu.dev:anu/anu anu`
<cole-h>
(note: it clones to the current directory unlike git, unless you specify an output folder)
<gchristensen>
any suggestions on nice laptops? I need to get a new one asap so I'm not stuck typing on my server in the basement
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<cransom>
depending on your inclination, i've went the super simple route and my remote computing is an ipad with a keyboard with tmuxes mostly to the server behind me.
<gchristensen>
wow!
<gchristensen>
I'm thinking the XPS 13, which is what I have now
<samueldr>
those rather inexpensive Ryzen-based HPs
<samueldr>
they are, IIRC, quite serviceable by the end-users, which is a big thing to consider if you don't want to buy future e-waste
<gchristensen>
I don't want to cause ewaste, in fact I don't even want to send this laptop back to ultimately become e-waste.
<samueldr>
HP sells them maxed at 16GB, but RAM vendors (which apparently are to be believed) quotes the machine as 32GB max
<gchristensen>
huh
<hyperfekt>
TIL 'nix' means 'snow' in latin. that makes the logo even better
<cransom>
heh. i remember when i left a company, they gave me the option to buy my mbp. iirc, the cost on a 2 year old laptop was ~3-400 off of new. 'no thank you.'
<gchristensen>
hah
<samueldr>
one added benefit here with that Ryzen platform: no thunderbolt madness!
<gchristensen>
oh good point, I have a thunderbolt dock that I like a lot but wouldn't mind replacing
<__monty__>
As in, thunderbolt just works or as in if it's not there it can't be borked?
<samueldr>
no thunderbolt
<samueldr>
so you don't have to deal with updating the bios of your docks through windows-only utilities
<samueldr>
or deal with DMA
<__monty__>
So it's more of an enforced discipline thing? Since you don't *have* to use thunderbolt even if it's an option?
<gchristensen>
thunderbolt can be a bit scary to have
<samueldr>
you don't have to use it, but it's probably still active by default
<samueldr>
and unless you use the appropriate services under linux, defaults to be open I think
<samueldr>
I'd much rather not have it than have it, especially given the additional headaches it gives compared to USB
<samueldr>
the only reason I would have liked to use it is the external GPU use case, but it seems it's not much of a thing really in the end
<__monty__>
Hmm, so it's more of a security concern than a convenience concern?
<samueldr>
kind of both, type-c is an horror, this is part of that horror
<gchristensen>
the pervasive crashes of hot-plugged PCIe is a thing
<__monty__>
samueldr: Because of the unpredictability of whether a particular combination of devices and cables will work as you intend?
<samueldr>
yes
<samueldr>
that's my main gripe with type-c
<samueldr>
if it fits, it statistically probably doesn't work!
<samueldr>
(I can't stats, it probably statistically works because of usb 2.0)
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<samueldr>
(and most smartphones have a usb 2.0 type-c interface)
<__monty__>
Ok, thanks for explaining your position.
<samueldr>
but eh, you have a dock for your desk, a shiny new dock with a 20cm long cable
<pie_>
universal segfault bus
<samueldr>
looking for a replacement cable?
<samueldr>
basically impossible to find a replacement cable
<samueldr>
since it needs to be able to do the alternate modes for eDP
<samueldr>
so you have this wonderfully standard thing that works with that single short cable it shipped with
<samueldr>
so now you have to have that dock basically in the middle of the place instead of tucked away
<__monty__>
I've heard of electrically off-standard USB-c cables so I agree the situation's far from ideal.
<gchristensen>
I think I might just stick to the devil I know and go for the XPS
<gchristensen>
now isn't a good time to be risking anything
<energizer>
is there a reasonable threat model where it makes sense to encrypt the root partition on my vps?
<joepie91>
energizer: yes; the provider improperly wiping your disk after service termination
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<samueldr>
there's also the whole not-intel thing with the ryzen laptops :)
<__monty__>
gchristensen: You never miss a bigger screen/keyboard/battery? Now might be kind of a good time to get a bulkier laptop for a while.
<gchristensen>
I don't, not really, heh
<elvishjerricco>
I do really like the idea of Thunderbolt though. LTT put his workstation in a closet and used a fiber optic thunderbolt cable to connect all his peripherals in another room. Silent, and super powerful
<elvishjerricco>
And if you're a laptop user, having one cable for all the goodies on your desk is cool. Though USB C gets most of the way there for that
<pie_>
huh. nice.
<pie_>
probably $$ but that soudns pretty rad
<elvishjerricco>
like I said; it's the *idea* that I like :P
<samueldr>
yeah, if thunderbolt worked, it would be nice
<samueldr>
but since it's part of the type-c thing, in addition to being extremely finnicky...
<samueldr>
and there's the whole thing where the implementation is backed by only one silicon implementation _by design_
<pie_>
crash all the thing :D
<__monty__>
samueldr: How? Licensing?
<elvishjerricco>
Won't USB 4 basically roll thunderbolt into USB?
<pie_>
its a real shame
<samueldr>
[citation needed] somewhere months, possibly years in whitequark's feed
<samueldr>
elvishjerricco: yes, but it's basically rolled-in the spec by saying "see thunderbolt 3 spec"
<samueldr>
which actually is scary
<elvishjerricco>
Yea
<elvishjerricco>
Scary how?
<pie_>
i saw this whitequark post <samueldr> elvishjerricco: yes, but it's basically rolled-in the spec by saying "see thunderbolt 3 spec"
<samueldr>
since I think it means you might have usb 4 without thunderbolt 3 support
<pie_>
how did they manage to make usb 3 so bad
<samueldr>
but nothing to tell them apart, compared to how thunderbolt 3 differs lightly from usb 3 & knuckles featuring dante from devil may cry
<pie_>
or thunderbolrt
<pie_>
or whatever is even the difference
<pie_>
well, besides "deliberately"
<samueldr>
usb 3 isn't bad, it's the type-c connector that is
<supersandro2000>
usb3 requires a chip in each cable and is way more complicated than 2
<samueldr>
which is required for the latter usb 3 whatever name they are known as right now
<cole-h>
Why? I really like not having to deal with the 4 dimensional USB-A connectors
<samueldr>
supersandro2000: false, no chip required for usb 3
<samueldr>
usb 3 predates type-c
<supersandro2000>
no extra chip in the cable
<supersandro2000>
was that C then?
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<samueldr>
not C outright, but some usages of
<supersandro2000>
but you can still do USB 2.0 type c
<samueldr>
C just how complex it is?
<supersandro2000>
usb standard is just a mess
<elvishjerricco>
samueldr: If you could design the perfect port, what would it be like?
<samueldr>
obviously one-sided, like HDMI
<samueldr>
since type-c sometimes can be mis-implemented and work differently depending on the orientation!!!!!
<samueldr>
or, by design, SBU lanes are dependent on the orientation!!!!!!!!
<pie_>
i think people usually say it should have just been ethernet or PCI <elvishjerricco> samueldr: If you could design the perfect port, what would it be like?
<samueldr>
I say "obviously one-sided", as you can plug an HDMI cable in a port with your eyes closed relatively easily, compared to usb A
<supersandro2000>
RJ4X jacks are worse
<supersandro2000>
HDMI port is similar to DP
<samueldr>
ethernet is the protocol on the wires, no?
<samueldr>
you could have ethernet on something else than RJ45 Cat-n cables
<supersandro2000>
wheren't you at ports?
<__monty__>
I definitely don't agree about HDMI being a nice port.
<samueldr>
pie_ talked about ethernet, I didn't :)
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<samueldr>
__monty__: how?
<elvishjerricco>
samueldr: What features would your perfect port support? And would they be optional in implementations?
<samueldr>
elvishjerricco: first, strong identification rules on everything
<supersandro2000>
elvishjerricco: if it is optional half of the implementations won't do it to save money
<__monty__>
samueldr: Just shitty implentations, tolerance-wise.
<samueldr>
__monty__: ah, as with anything :) that's not HDMI
<samueldr>
uh
<samueldr>
I misread you
<samueldr>
maybe?
<samueldr>
did you mean: people make garbage cables/receptacles that don't really fit?
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<samueldr>
or s/people/manufacturers/
<__monty__>
No, I'm talking about physical tolerance. I just haven't experienced it to the same level with USB-c. Like, not even close.
<__monty__>
Maybe that's because cheap implementations opt for micro-usb rather than usb-c though.
<samueldr>
possibly
<samueldr>
but yeah, clear identification of what the devices and cables support
<__monty__>
My No would've been a yes if I'd read your last statement before sending, btw.
<samueldr>
and uh, even then, all cables should support everything unless permanently attached
<samueldr>
and uh, even then, don't permanently attach a cable
<samueldr>
__monty__: lol
<__monty__>
Are there usb-c cables that support everything? Cause that seems like a viable solution to your woes?
<samueldr>
probably not
<elvishjerricco>
Do thunderbolt 3 cables function as usb 3 type c cables?
<elvishjerricco>
For devices that don't have thunderbolt
<samueldr>
I don't even know :)
<samueldr>
that could be part of those cables that require identification
<samueldr>
and even then, thunderbolt 3 cables are not equal
<samueldr>
if you have two thunderbolt computers, and use the thunderbolt 3 cables for ethernet, you can test them
<samueldr>
and get varying results
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<energizer>
i just ran nixos-infect without any extra config on a vps. it said 'installation successful' and logged me out of my ssh session. am i locked out now?
<energizer>
nah i think it just restarted the network or something. all good
<energizer>
if i luks-encrypt my partition on a vps, can i shrink it later?
<etu>
It is possible, but it's not super convenient
<etu>
I have shrunk luks partitions in the past
<samueldr>
you have to handle knowing the size of what is inside the luks container
<etu>
energizer: The steps you have to do is to pretty much... shrink filesystem, shrink cryptsetup volume, shrink partition.
<energizer>
alrigth
<etu>
Mic92: Thanks! That helped a lot :) It will for sure "ease" the transaction a bit :)
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<pie_>
i added an iptables rule and its listed in -S but it doesnt seem to have taken effect? am I missing something
<sphalerite>
pie_: is it maybe coming after a rule that rejects everything?
<pie_>
hm maybe but it looked like it ended up in a similar place as another allow rule
<pie_>
i just worked around it by putting the service on an already open port :V
<pie_>
i should learn to use thiss stuff at some point properly...
<elvishjerricco>
Is the kernel aware of things like CPUs with multiple dies that have separate caches? It'd be most efficient to keep threads with access to the same memory on the same die, right?
<__monty__>
As a rough first order heuristic that sounds sensible.
<gchristensen>
I guess it'd depend on if the CPU has the m appear as multiple numa nodes?
<elvishjerricco>
Hm... I've got a CPU with multiple zen1 dies, how do I check that?
<elvishjerricco>
numactl says one node
<gchristensen>
do the chiplets give traditional performance tiers?
<elvishjerricco>
gchristensen: I do not know what that question means :P
<gchristensen>
well, like cores and threads always had L1/L2/L3/L4 caches which performed at different levels. does your CPU's caches perform at equivalent speeds?
<gchristensen>
because it might
<elvishjerricco>
gchristensen: It's a 1950X Threadripper. So it's got 3(?) cache levels
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<elvishjerricco>
and two die each with 8 cores
<elvishjerricco>
Not sure which cores share which cache levels...