gchristensen changed the topic of #nixos-chat to: NixOS but much less topical || https://logs.nix.samueldr.com/nixos-chat
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* colemickens wants that
<gchristensen> whats that?
<colemickens> mostly just so I can keep pulling in those cases when pinentry is somewhere running at 100% cpu and gpg gets jammed up :S (cause that's a thing that's been happening recently)
<colemickens> the separate push/pull protos for git
<gchristensen> yeah
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<ashkitten> i figured out how to set up orca
<ashkitten> it does work on wayland, it seems
<ashkitten> it's windowing system agnostic
<energizer> which orca ashkitten?
<cole-h> https://github.com/GNOME/orca I'd imagine
<energizer> ah
<joepie91> it is coming along nicely :)
<joepie91> tonight's project: http://cryto.net/~joepie91/validatem-site/ (the site, not the library)
<gchristensen> it turns out taking firefox out of my PATH is a bit annoying
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<colemickens> Is it worth having a #nixos-flakes?
<gchristensen> imo not really
<colemickens> nice. it has some clarifications that I'm happy to see and answers some of the questions I had!
<hoverbear> It reminds me of my `Cargo.toml`/`Cargo.lock` files in all the good ways
<manveru> so... we're back to epochs?
<manveru> oh, that's a really old draft
<gchristensen> manveru: the RFC should be considered the source, this gist hasn't been updated since Feb 2019
<manveru> whew :)
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<hoverbear> Epochs are cool
<colemickens> Hm. I fell for the "last active" date at the top of hte Gist.
<drakonis> it counts favorites and copying
<colemickens> The draft says that paths are not allowed in pure eval mode, is that still the case in the latest RFC/code?
<colemickens> Maybe I'm reading poorly but I feel like the inputs were better (or maybe just more) spec'd in the draft.
<colemickens> Can an input be optional?
<colemickens> I guess I should TIAS.
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<kiwiirc> hoverbear what're flakes?
<kiwiirc> daddy like
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<bqv> …
<samueldr> I wonder if it's okay with the GPL for a BSP vendor to ship a binary without source that is used to build the kernel, but not part of the kernel
<samueldr> (probably, but I'm definitely not a lawyer)
<samueldr> though mediatek is annoying :|
<c74d> I seem quite to have forgotten how to use `zfs receive`... first it complains that the destination dataset doesn't exist, and then I create the dataset and now `receive` complains that the destination dataset already exists :s
<c74d> gah! if I turn off the dry-run option, it starts working! :|
<elvishjerricco> c74d: Can you show the commands your using? And are you using encrypted datasets? They kinda muck with this a bit
<elvishjerricco> oh
<elvishjerricco> lol
<samueldr> ugh, just realized that this means that, without binfmt, this can only compile on x86_64-linux :x
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<cole-h> Grr. The only thing I really dislike about the GH redesign is that it no longer shows what the most recent commit was -- just the hash and the time
<samueldr> someone griped about that on the orange site and the github founder(?) noted it
<bqv> cole-h: For tofu purposes?
<samueldr> not only
<samueldr> no description!
<samueldr> I only knew who did it
<samueldr> and when
<cole-h> Yep
<cole-h> Exactly
<samueldr> but I have to fish for a mostly hidden ellipsis to know what it's all about
<cole-h> This ^
<Shados> Yeah, that *is* a UX downgrade.
<cole-h> Like, as a whole I guess I don't really dislike it. But that part in particular irks me to no end.
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<energizer> didnt you need to click on the shorthash in the old ui too?
<energizer> to be able to see the full hash
<samueldr> for that yes
<samueldr> the message is what's missing
<pie_> why did anyone think its a good idea to remove information
<pie_> i havent been looking at github for the past few days but i hope they arent learning from the other sites with garbage ui design
<pie_> i mean sure overly high information density is a thing but i dont think github has been suffering from that
<pie_> oh no
<pie_> why the hell are things blobby
<pie_> no no no no this isnt happening xD
<pie_> also im reminded of vs code for some reason
<samueldr> all I know is that everywhere my avatar lives, it ends up living in a cropped circle
<pie_> samueldr: pffff
<samueldr> he, too, lives in a cropped circle
<pie_> i cant decide if ui designers or their managers are ruining the internet
<srk> :D :D
<pie_> seriously what has been going on the past few years
<pie_> im sorry for raging about this by the way
<energizer> the only thing that was removed is the last commit message?
<pie_> yeah im mostly ranting about the damn blob design
<kiwiirc> mega corps are trying to turn the internet into cable tv 2.0, and they're winning
<energizer> there was way too much info stuck in the top bar, so they moved it to the side, seems like a good idea
<pie_> i think the internet is a lost cause
<samueldr> sure, a redesign of one website can be attributed to "cable tv 2.0"
<pie_> but eh well we live here
<kiwiirc> samueldr ya cuz everything exists in a vacuum
<samueldr> exactly
<samueldr> everything exists in a vacuum
<samueldr> pro-tip: I'm right
<kiwiirc> except it doesn't
<samueldr> literally, the whole planet is in the vacuum of space
<kiwiirc> why are you saying irrelevant nonsense? it doesn't add anything
<samueldr> why are you saying irrelevant nonsense? it doesn't add anything
<samueldr> (or, barely relevant)
<pie_> guys can we get back to being angry at the github redesign
<kiwiirc> that's all i was participating in, i dont know what this samuel dumb fuck is on about
<energizer> pie_ the new design is more readable, no? it has more information and uses the space available
<pie_> hey now
<pie_> kiwiirc: thats not warranted
<samueldr> I'm not sure you're fit for this community here
<kiwiirc> i gave an answer to pie's question and samuel felt the need to pick some kind of personal fight
<pie_> escalating to the level you did is not welcome here regardless of whether youre right
<energizer> moving on...
<energizer> what's invovled in getting committer privs on nixpkgs?
<samueldr> energizer: there is no formal process
<pie_> "using the space availible" is not necessarily positiv <energizer> pie_ the new design is more readable, no? it has more information and uses the space available
<samueldr> but generally it's been either by asking (with weight behind yourself) or being recommended
<pie_> energizer: im pretty sure this blobby crap is because of phones and such
<samueldr> I wonder, I think a designer mostly must have liked rounding off both edges
<samueldr> see, it's trendy, gitlab does it
<samueldr> (I think?)
<energizer> pie_: the big whitespace zones on the sides of all websites are so silly, i'm glad to see content go in there
<pie_> energizer: im more annoyed by the decreasing information density in the middle
<pie_> energizer: ever read a book?
<pie_> or look at tables?
<pie_> well im not really sure where im going with this
<pie_> but they dont shove those full of whitespace for the sake of sparsity and or filling the page
<pie_> im constructing a bit of a strawman here
<energizer> pie_: you think they expanded the whitespace between lines in the file listing?
<pie_> ok i just realized i was a bit zoomed in
<pie_> but im not sure that neutralizes everything
<pie_> well whatever its not like my annoyance will change anythign in this regard
<samueldr> I'm pretty sure the information density is the same compared to just before
<pie_> but samueldr i now realize why i find the gitlab ui uncomfortable
<samueldr> except for that commit message line
<samueldr> one thing we have lost, though, is clear delimitations between things
<samueldr> colours are more subdued
<samueldr> I wonder how it looks on a macOS gamma curve
<JJJollyjim> My only issue with the github redesign is that I have to scroll to see the language breakdown colour bar thing, so I can't instantly dismiss a piece of software based on what it's written in /s
<pie_> JJJollyjim: ...i actually dont see the language breakdown at all
<energizer> its on the right side bar
<pie_> and where did the new issue manager ui go i was using that
<eyJhb> The great joys of the mechanic, the waiting.. Only "two" hours
<samueldr> tacking a question mark at the end of a sentence makes it a question?
<samueldr> ^(the fun bit here is that if you remove the question mark, it's a statement of that fact!)
<JJJollyjim> Yeah that repo doesn't have it
<JJJollyjim> Actually idk if markdown ever actually counts?
<pie_> oh i was looking for the notifications page, my bad
<samueldr> I think that's it, there's no code
<pie_> oh ok
<samueldr> the breakdown here is fine https://github.com/NixOS/mobile-nixos
<samueldr> too much C though :/
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<samueldr> not enough nix
<samueldr> oh, it counts those "compiler fix" header files as C
<eyJhb> srhb: ping
<pie_> orthogonally, <x> okay, also because github increasingly makes things unavailable when logged out... crippled search, unability to expand resolved comments, unability to read action logs...
<eyJhb> (need some charity guidance)
<eyJhb> Ohh this new GitHub UI... Why do I need the about to be on the right
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<ashkitten> new github ui looks like, as with all ui redesigns these days, it was designed by someone on a giant hidpi monitor
<ashkitten> computers are basically unusable below 1080p these days
<ashkitten> literally some apps just don't work on screens smaller than that
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<ldlework> ashkitten: to me, the first time I saw it, I thought the CSS was broken
<ldlework> it looks like it lost a margin-left: auto
<ldlework> lol
<ashkitten> ui designers should be forced to test on a 720p laptop
<eyJhb> ldlework: same. Thought my network had borked
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<srhb> eyJhb: pong
<elvishjerricco> Is there a convenient command to say "Take file at `$path` and copy it to `foo/$path`, even if `$path` contains parent directories that would have to be created"?
<energizer> elvishjerricco: mkdir -p foo/$path
<elvishjerricco> energizer: But `$path` is a file, not a directory
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<eyJhb> elvishjerricco: dirname
<eyJhb> mkdir -p $(dirname $path)
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<kiwiirc> does nix have the same kinda marxist anti-white/male/whatever CoC linux and anything infected by frankfurt school has? i just learned linux had one forced on it a year ago so i'm rethinking switching to linux, wanna see how far the rot has gone
<Valodim> wtf?
<Valodim> learn some humility
<kiwiirc> what?
<etu> kiwiirc: What are you on about? The very short TLDR of most CoC's I've seen is "don't be rude to people". How is this a bad thing?
<kiwiirc> if that were true it wouldn't need to include so many "identity" specifiers
<etu> It's not that simple, one need to spell it out what to not be rude about. Because people find ways to be rude.
<philipp[m]> It seems so indeed.
<kiwiirc> i'd maybe agree if i hadn't seen n instances of complaints only taken seriously if they come from "protected" groups, or at least don't come from white hetero men
<philipp[m]> Do you have a complaint?
<kiwiirc> about a person?
<etu> If you're serious about managing such complaints, it should be taken serious in all directions. But it's true that certain "groups" (I don't like to point people out as groups) have bigger problems with people harrasing them. So it becomes a bigger problem for that group.
<etu> And it's a natural human behaviour to focus on the worse problem.
<kiwiirc> subjective
<etu> Correct, most things are.
<philipp[m]> Man, you should read franfurt school about it. It's quite boring to get into but they focus on this stuff a lot.
<kiwiirc> ya that's exactly what this is. frankfurt school cultural marxism
<kiwiirc> veiled as being nice, as always
<philipp[m]> I don't think you appreciate how theoretical and boring frankfurt school really is. Have you ever read anything by them? I can't say I fully grasp Dialektik der Aufklärung but I don't think it says what you think it says.
<kiwiirc> theoretical? you must be joking or uninformed
<sphalerite> kiwiirc: no explicit CoC. But from the way you're describing it it sounds like the nixos community is absolutely not the right place for you
<sphalerite> (IMHO)
<kiwiirc> sphalerite why's that?
<philipp[m]> What has the linux CoC to do with Adorno though?
<kiwiirc> what's adorno?
<sphalerite> kiwiirc: I certainly wouldn't describe it as anti-white/anti-male/anything like that, but the fact that you're describing linux's as that suggests strongly to me that you'll feel the same about the nixos community's "standards" (if you can call them that, being unwritten).
<JJJollyjim> philipp: very little, but the current trend in right-wing conspiracy circles is to decry things as being Frankfurt School
<sphalerite> kiwiirc: would you describe "black lives matter" as anti-white?
<kiwiirc> conspiracy theory, you know you're using a propaganda term created by the cia to discourage scrutiny?
<pie_> see this is why the nix community is awesome, instead of someone getting up and say F you, its an actually reasonable response.
<pie_> im humbled
<sphalerite> kiwiirc: if so, then the answer to your question "does nix have the same…" is yes and I'd suggest you move along :)
<kiwiirc> ya very inclusive n stuff, hypocrite
<kiwiirc> more double speak from ideological leftist psychopaths
<pie_> you on the other hand seem to enjoy picking a fight
<kiwiirc> i'm not surprised you pick the safe side pie
<etu> I think this past 40 minutes in this channel is the most hostile I've ever seen the nix channels.
<pie_> i personally dont care so much about your opinions as opposed to the way you express them
<philipp[m]> Adorno was one of the most influential philosophers in the frankfurt school and generally one of the most important philosophers of the 20th century.
<kiwiirc> like when the samueldr guy that looks like a decrepid zombie was shitting on me earlier and my response was the problem, not him
<philipp[m]> I get the feeling that you don't really want to discuss frankfurt school here...
<pie_> lol ok ban this guy
<sphalerite> kiwiirc: _you're_ the one bringing ideology into this. If you'd opened a pull request updating some package and asked me to review it, I'd have reviewed it.
<sphalerite> srhb: ping?
<kiwiirc> i just asked if nix had a CoC and you get all bent out of shape
<kiwiirc> this is the kinda safe space hug box that turns into a monothink nightmare
<sphalerite> kiwiirc: no, you asked an extremely loaded question.
<pie_> kiwiirc: im not the one throwing ad hominem at respected contributing comunity members :D
<philipp[m]> And then you started to insult people.
<sphalerite> kiwiirc: You could have written "does nix have a CoC?" and we would have said "no" and been done.
<kiwiirc> ok so questions cannot be asked unless i agree with the answer you'd give or?
* joepie91 is quietly ticking off the boxes of abuser behaviour
<philipp[m]> OK, let's not feed that troll any more. Let's just wait for some mod to come around.
<pie_> joepie91: at this point i consider this an exercise
<kiwiirc> such fragile weirdos
<kiwiirc> no need, i'll just leave
<pie_> kiwiirc: that would be appreciated
<pie_> kiwiirc: or just dont be like that.
<sphalerite> kiwiirc: instead you asked an extremely loaded question which was very indicative of your opinion and that's why I answered it the way I did: adjusted to the target audience.
<etu> kiwiirc: "such fragile weirdos" -- that's quite rude you know?
<joepie91> kiwiirc: it's not too late to take a step back, and become a constructive participant in the channel. but your behaviour as it is, is very abusive, and certainly not as 'rational' as you seem to believe it to be.
<pie_> this is channel is not the avenue to splatter your opinions on the walls in an unfiltered manner
<kiwiirc> well it's true, not that you care
<sphalerite> kiwiirc: your question was if you will feel welcome with your ideology, hinting strongly at what your ideology is, and the answer to that question is no.
<sphalerite> kiwiirc: that's not a reason to start insulting everyone.
<kiwiirc> my "ideology" is that technical merit alone matters in software, not who someone fucks or their skin color
<kiwiirc> but idiots assume that if you're not on their side, you're on the "other" side, as if life is binary
<pie_> kiwiirc: youre the one making that assumption here
<pie_> and projecting
<pie_> a lot
<etu> kiwiirc: Now you use words that are discuraged and not very family friendly.
<joepie91> kiwiirc: if you believe that minorities should not be given special consideration, then you're adhering to an ideology of false meritocracy
<joepie91> not actual meritocracy
<kiwiirc> sphalerite i didn't ask if i'd feel welcome. i wouldn't ask such a fragile question i'm not a broken person
<sphalerite> kiwiirc: I'd say that's a reasonably good start, but _you're_ the one decrying things as anti-white and anti-male.
<joepie91> actual meritocracy doesn't just look at one's current capabilities, but at one's total potential, and helps people equally in achieving that. this means giving special support to those who are societally disadvantaged from achieving that potential in some way.
<kiwiirc> joepie91 ya i think pretending that special rules for some creates equality is mentally deranged thinking
<JJJollyjim> kiwiirc: to be clear I'm making assumptions: your talking points are the same as those of people that want me dead, so I assume you do to
<joepie91> if you care about technical merit, you should care about optimizing for people to be the best they could be, not just attracting people who happen to know a lot right now
<kiwiirc> want you dead? wtf see this hyperbolic fear is mental illness, sorry
<kiwiirc> i've coached plenty of "minorities" into tech i don't need a lecture
<joepie91> so no, your ideology as you have espoused it so far, is not about technical meritocracy at all. it's about disguised oppression.
<pie_> kiwiirc: you know there are countries where they still have honor killings?
<kiwiirc> lol
<sphalerite> kiwiirc: "kiwiirc | no need, i'll just leave" please do.
<kiwiirc> pie_ if you hate muslims take it up with them
<etu> wtf
<etu> kiwiirc: please leave.
<srk> +1
<kiwiirc> well he's obviously referring to muslims
<joepie91> kiwiirc: I don't believe you.
<pie_> Just jumping between threads to keep feeding the fire.
<pie_> while the previous one is still burning.
<kiwiirc> https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18056198 "CoC are political tools to eliminate diversity of ideas and impose an "intersectional" mindset on all contributors, under threat of exclusion."
<pie_> kiwiirc: if people approach it like you do, do you find the reaction surprising?
<joepie91> > There is absolutely no proof a CoC drives "inclusiveness"
<{^_^}> undefined variable 'There' at (string):317:1
<pie_> if you force people into a heavily defensive position
<joepie91> this is false
<joepie91> it only seems to be true when you treat a CoC as some sort of newfangled concept
<kiwiirc> no because i know that to ideologues like you, even if i came pefectly the result would not be different. there is no placating authoritarian psychopaths
<kiwiirc> it is
<kiwiirc> CoCs didn't exist in FOSS until non computer ppl came into tech to make money and get power
<joepie91> but when you understand that it is just a different name for "community rules", there's hundreds of years of community management showing that community rules help to create a more pleasant and inclusive community, by throwing out abusive individuals.
<kiwiirc> they have an obvious ideological skew
<joepie91> kiwiirc: this is complete horseshit.
<kiwiirc> u
<philipp[m]> Now I'm thinking of proposing a minimal CoC as a troll deterrent.
<joepie91> community rules have existed for many, many years.
<JJJollyjim> lmao non computer ppl
<sphalerite> philipp[m]: I wrote a CoC! "1. kiwiirc please leave"
<pie_> philipp[m]: if we start tinfoil hatting, maybe the whole point is to put a bar in the spokes
<JJJollyjim> what color skin do computer ppl have, just checking?
<kiwiirc> JJJollyjim weren't you just afraid of being killed a moment ago? shouldn't you be somewhere shaking? or are you done pretending?
<pie_> JJJollyjim: depends on the PCB material
<JJJollyjim> i didn't say you're going to kill me.
<kiwiirc> and yet you grouped me with ppl who would, nice
<joepie91> anyway, I don't think there's much more useful to say here - kiwiirc: you should now have enough information to think things over, so this is your cue to leave
<JJJollyjim> but all evidence suggests you hang around with people who would like me to not exist.
<JJJollyjim> which suggests you might be one too.
<pie_> kiwiirc: its just bayesian inference bro
<kiwiirc> "all evidence" translation: i'm justifying assuming horrible things about others cuz i wanna
<kiwiirc> ya no false positives there, but there doesn't matter to the grinding machine of oppression
<etu> philipp[m]: It sounds like a good idea, we should have a RFC for that :)
<kiwiirc> all kneel before the wheel of monothought
<kiwiirc> please do add a CoC to nix
<kiwiirc> make it very, very strong in fact, to make sure evil ppl like me don't come anywhere close!
<pie_> etu: philipp[m] i think we"re doing pretty ok here
<kiwiirc> so ur saying CoC is unnecessary?
<pie_> yes, everyone managed to say please leave without needing to invoke a coc
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<joepie91> kiwiirc: I thought you were going to leave?
<JJJollyjim> nix CoC: Section 1 - The Two Factors of a Commodity: Use-Value and Value
<kiwiirc> joepie91 i am
<joepie91> the command is /part
<etu> pie_: Hmm, sure. You say that our community is nice enough? That's what I've always thought. And always experienced before this.
<pie_> slow ping timeout, they had all the lines typed up ahead of time
<pie_> etu: i think some things are worth not making artificial
<srhb> sphalerite: pong. reading backlog.
<pie_> etu: keep the human in the loop yknow? something like that
<kiwiirc> i'll await my ban so the petty group thinkers can feel some empty victory
<pie_> etu: and ironically, it may prevent controversy and polarization
<pie_> but im noob so idk
<pie_> etu: we can just keep asking to leave / banning people who are deliberately irredeemable
<JJJollyjim> pie_: tbh having a file that says "don't be a dick, here's how to privately contact someone if there are issues" is a strong start
<philipp[m]> Agreed. A good CoC is all about having channels for complaints, so that people are encouraged to come forward early when there is an issue.
<pie_> dont be a dick should be an assumption
<pie_> oh im still in -chat
<pie_> geez
<pie_> i thought this was main
<joepie91> pie_: the real point of a CoC (like community rules) is ultimately *not* to provide an exhaustive list of things that you can be banned for (as that just invites rule lawyering); rather, it's a way to communicate to well-intentioned people what behaviour you are not going to tolerate, ie. what shitty behaviour they can be assured will not bother them there
<joepie91> it's about setting expectations more than anything
<sphalerite> IMHO the "don't be a dick" bit was already violated when kiwiirc decided to call samueldr a "dumb fuck"
<pie_> well, my personal opinion is avoid coc if possible
<pie_> samueldr: right
<pie_> this guy was so blatant its not even controvercial
<pie_> they have to resort to more careful undermining if they want to get anywhere
<LnL> as with many things, you'd assume making rules about obvious things is not necessary
<kiwiirc> sphalerite well technically i characterized his response to me as a dumb fuck response, i didn't call him one, but i'm fine either way
<joepie91> for example, if you're a woman, you're probably going to feel more comfortable in a community that explicitly says "we don't permit sexism in here"
<pie_> im saying we have an immune system that means we dont have to resort to cover your ass clauses, but im just some dude
<JJJollyjim> joepie91 +1
<pie_> joepie91: your point is valid
<joepie91> pie_: I understand what you're saying, but that is still about "dealing with abuse", which isn't the point of a CoC; the point of a CoC is to *show to other people* that you are doing so
<JJJollyjim> i can take or leave the explicit rules
<sphalerite> "kiwiirc | that's all i was participating in, i dont know what this samuel dumb fuck is on about " pretty sure that's calling _him_ a dumb fuck
<joepie91> not that this can't be done without a CoC, to be clear
<joepie91> it's just one of the tools to communicate that
<JJJollyjim> but having anything is a strong sign that bullshit won't be tolerated
<joepie91> exactly
<JJJollyjim> which it so often is
<JJJollyjim> but apparently not in linux, which is marxist Actually
<JJJollyjim> :P
<philipp[m]> Having a transparent conflict resolution strategy in place before conflicts arise is also often very handy.
<pie_> i think the only thing that might need improvement here is mod response time
<kiwiirc> ah ya i guess i did. i was referring to his response but didn't communicate that clearly
<joepie91> mod coverage is always a concern
<kiwiirc> but with his shitty comment to me i'm fine with what i said even tho it wasn't my intent
<joepie91> ooo, another tick for my abuser-behaviour list
<pie_> kiwiirc: you have several other points remaining that require some backtracking
<kiwiirc> i'm backtracking on nothing, i thought i was making that clear
<joepie91> ☑︎ suddenly becoming polite and appearing "reasonable, just discussing" when a mod appears
<kiwiirc> i don't care if you get aids and die. convinced i'm not backtracking?
<pie_> joepie91: your insight is appreciated
<kiwiirc> i already said i'd await my ban
<JJJollyjim> you backtracked on leaving
<kiwiirc> i didn't say when, so no i didn't
<JJJollyjim> yes, that was backtracking :P
<pie_> lol gg technicalities
<philipp[m]> First of all you still didn't explain to me what a guy that dies in 1969 has to do with the recent changes in the lkml.
<sphalerite> /ignore kiwiirc
<sphalerite> hey kiwiirc left!
<kiwiirc> ideology of destruction, like alinsky tactics, to put it simply
<pie_> sidenote, im personally ok with banning him from this single channel as long as he remains on topic in te other channels
<joepie91> as an aside, I would recommend everyone to read https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DARVO
<joepie91> you'll see it a lot from people like this
<NinjaTrappeur> joepie91++
<{^_^}> joepie91's karma got increased to 15
<Arahael> Only 15?
<kiwiirc> pie_ why assume i'm male?
<JJJollyjim> joupie91 ✨
<pie_> kiwiirc: because im a white guy and i forget
<JJJollyjim> wait doesn't that do a karma bump too?
<pie_> kiwiirc: i did use they half way through somewhere
<kiwiirc> check your privilege pls
<joepie91> JJJollyjim: wrong vowel :P
<JJJollyjim> there's some way involving a sparkle right?
<JJJollyjim> oh lol
<joepie91> jou -> joe
<NinjaTrappeur> kiwiirc: what's your goal here? What are you trying to communicate?
<pie_> assuming any charity at all in this conversation, he doesnt like whats been going on in the culture war contexts
<pie_> and is expressing his distaste in a destructive manner
<pie_> or he is just a troll
<kiwiirc> NinjaTrappeur well originally i was trying to find out if nix had a CoC
<NinjaTrappeur> no
<kiwiirc> pie_ and you're just a murderer of homeless ppl
<pie_> by the way kiwiirc has a history of bad language here
<JJJollyjim> classic pie_
<kiwiirc> the way i think about it, CoC type stuff scares away more good contributors to projects than it attracts so i see them as doom indicators
<pie_> and until now i said nothing beause im a bit verbose myself
<JJJollyjim> always murdering the homeless
<Arahael> Depends on the CoC.
<joepie91> kiwiirc: let me guess, those "good contributors" happen to primarily include you
<JJJollyjim> whoops i read the irc scrollback and i misunderstood "working on nixos" as "murdering the homeless"
<kiwiirc> Arahael i'd agree, but good CoCs are indistinguishable from projects that get on just fine without them
<kiwiirc> kiwiirc no
<NinjaTrappeur> kiwiirc: this kind of choice is up to the community. And seeing how you are treating several ppl of this channel with ad-hominem attacks, it seems unlikely to me this whole chat is going to help you integrate here.
<Valodim> perhaps we should look into a CoC
<NinjaTrappeur> I think it's time to reflect on this chat and logout
<kiwiirc> why do you weirdo leftists assume so much? it's like your perception of category theory or taxonomy is artificially constrained
<Valodim> if it scares away folks like that
<adisbladis> I have wished for a CoC on occasion. It's much easier to stave off hostile actors if you have a written policy backing you up.
<Arahael> A CoC would be pretty on trend with today, actually.
<kiwiirc> like if you don't vote hillary, you're voting trump
<Arahael> kiwiirc: I didn't vote hillary, and I sure didn't vote trump.
<JJJollyjim> lmao category theory?
<Valodim> ok now it's officially just trolling. can we ban him please?
<pie_> im going to stand my ground on no written coc currently but the longer this guy doesnt get banned the more people are going to rally behind a coc
<adisbladis> Barring inertia I think we'll have a CoC in less than a year
<joepie91> adisbladis: I think that's the wrong reason to have a CoC, tbh
<kiwiirc> just add a CoC now
<pie_> kiwiirc: that seems to be your goal
<pie_> im going to go full tinfoil hat on this
<kiwiirc> if you don't add a CoC you don't want disadvantaged groups to feel safe
<Valodim> pie_: lol you think it's a false flag operation? that would be amazing
<pie_> Valodim: sure why not
<joepie91> adisbladis: it's very likely to lead to a situation where you have a CoC but noone enforcing it. ultimately what you need is moderators willing to throw a banhammer at abusive users who refuse to fix their behaviour, with or without an explicit rule backing them up
<Valodim> I kind of like the thought :D
<JJJollyjim> kiwiirc: in case you're confused, the existence of an identity arrow for each object is not a reference to identity politics
<kiwiirc> :P
<pie_> JJJollyjim: pffff
<joepie91> adisbladis: because if your moderators need an explicit rule to ban an abusive user, it's a matter of time until some abusive user starts rule-lawyering and arguing that you can't ban them because Technically there is no rule that prohibits their particular brand of abuse
<adisbladis> joepie91: Maybe. That's just my personal reason for wanting one.
<joepie91> moderation is always going to be a contextual, subjective thing
<pie_> joepie91: i was trying to come up with how to say something like that
<pie_> joepie91: thanks
kiwiirc was banned on #nixos-chat by gchristensen [*!68c88135@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.]
kiwiirc has left #nixos-chat [requested by gchristensen (kiwiirc)]
<adisbladis> joepie91: I've already seen that argument being used now, because we don't have a CoC.
<joepie91> thanks, gchristensen
<pie_> joepie91: thats also why i think we should avoid having one, but im not on the receiving end of problems so
<gchristensen> good morning
<sphalerite> I love the smell of napban in the morning.
<sphalerite> or something.
<adisbladis> Banning naps?!
<srhb> gchristensen beat me to the banmask. :)
<pie_> about time, phew, i was gettng a little bit uncomfortable there as time went on :D
<srhb> I'm terrified of web irc clients and their weird formats.
<joepie91> pie_: I still think it's a good idea to have a CoC, just not for the reason of "giving ammo to moderators"
<srhb> pie_: Sorry :(
<pie_> joepie91: valid
<pie_> srhb: dont worry about me haha
<sphalerite> ooh could have quieted them, then they would still have had to leave themselves :D
<joepie91> (and the CoC probably shouldn't be one of the typical template CoCs, because those tend to be designed to have explicit rules...)
<pie_> i wasnt feeling uncomfortable with myself in mind
<srhb> fwiw it was definitely not out of lack of agreement with people in here.
<joepie91> (unless that's been fixed by now)
<srhb> Just slowness. Apologies. :)
<pie_> sphalerite: im not familiar with irc infra, didnt realize thats an option
<sphalerite> I think it is?
<srhb> Yeah, same restrictions though.
<joepie91> yeah, you can quiet people
<pie_> thiking about it, ive seen channel quiet and plus v
<pie_> but thats all ive seen
<sphalerite> irc is weird
<Shados> Ah damn, kiwiirc left. I wanted to thank them for giving me a new favourite hilariously insane conspiracy theory.
<joepie91> I think Freenode uses some weird ~q: whatever syntax with bans
<joepie91> UnrealIRCd has a separate user quiet mode, +q I think?
<Arahael> Personally, I like CoC's.
<Arahael> They're particularly good for minorities.
<gchristensen> me too, Arahael
<etu> Yay, the rude person is gone!
<srk> nixos-gaming.. [13:19] < kiwiirc> ban me here too sara
<joepie91> Shados: it was the standard run-of-the-mill "oh no a CoC now all the good developers will leave Linux" nonsense, wasn't it? did I miss something?
<etu> Thank's the rest of you for being awesome
<pie_> one of the most dangerous parts of some of this is that even if there is some truth to some of what they say, which im not going to go into, i learned a lesson once, they like to poison the entire well
<joepie91> yeah
<gchristensen> srk: I think you'll need to ping ldlework for that one
<srk> yup
<Shados> joepie91: The bit about the CIA popularizing the term "conspiracy theory" in order to kill off "legit" conspiracy theories
<Shados> That's just so beautifully tortured.
<gchristensen> hexa-: were you telling me of a way to create a "#nixos-bans" channel and ban in one place?
<joepie91> Shados: oh, I did miss that!
<Shados> I mean, c'mon, the CIA are nowhere near that subtle, for one.
<joepie91> Shados: that's a bit fractal-esque
<Shados> It's very meta
<joepie91> gchristensen: ah I think there is a way on Freenode to have the ban list follow a particular channel
<pie_> even if it was true, you cant use it as a blanket excuse for everything
<pie_> going back to my previous point about poisoning the well
<philipp[m]> There is #nixos-gaming?
<joepie91> gchristensen: https://freenode.net/kb/answer/extbans -- $j I think
<sphalerite> Shados: ooooh, I haven't heard of that before.
<pie_> i could believe the cia comment because i dont have a mental model using which i feel like i could reasonably judge its falsiness, im weird like that
<gchristensen> joepie91: thank you! I will have to practice with this. it is too much work togo through the dozen chanels banning
<joepie91> yeah, makes sense
<pie_> but the argumentation method was unsound regardless of that
<pie_> i havent been keeping track but the guy doesnt seem to have gone off in any of the other channels?
<JJJollyjim> yeah he posted in -security and -gaming
<__monty__> I'm all for advertising points of contact for abuse. But please don't let a CoC be something pointed to as being enough of an explanation when asking someone to change their behavior. "Please refrain from swearing/bawdy jokes, read the CoC." is a lot harder to swallow than "Hey, could you maybe not? We try to keep the channel kid friendly and professional."
<JJJollyjim> saying "ban me here too"
<joepie91> likely a matter of time
<qyliss> And #nix-lang
<Shados> pie_: The CIA have done, like, a LOT of shit over time, but they don't really do subtler informational/propagandist stuff. They're more into assassinations, starting wars, giving weapons to insurgents against democratically elected governments, and funding everything by selling drugs to other countries they want to screw with (because two birds with one stone).
<joepie91> people who are asshats do not tend to scope their asshattery any more than is necesary to get what they want (which is free support)
<gchristensen> and #nixos-chat is just as much the community as it is any other nixos channel
<pie_> http://kiwiirc.com/ huh its some web clint
<pie_> client
<joepie91> necessary*
* Arahael often goes for free support.
<pie_> oh yeah re the coc thing, i dont know who mods are or how to contact them
<sphalerite> Shados: what about the MLK stuff?
<Shados> Plus dosing random people with LSD and other stuff as part of really poorly-designed mind control experiments, yeah
<pie_> so thats the one other thing that might be god to make subtly but highly visible, if that makes any sense
<joepie91> aside; with the recent surge in popularity of NixOS, I'm expecting more people like this to come in soon-ish
<Shados> Which includes accidentally creating the unabomber, which really DOES sound like a conspiracy theory but is extremely well-documented.
<pie_> *good
<gchristensen> pie_++
<{^_^}> pie_'s karma got increased to -2147483648
<gchristensen> whoa
<pie_> lol
<joepie91> so yeah, this is probably the moment to start thinking about ways to keep it out from the start
<lassulus> :D
<Arahael> pie_--
<Shados> ...overflow?
<joepie91> lol
<NinjaTrappeur> :D
<pie_> more like casting unsigned
<pie_> im assuming
* Arahael looks at {^_^}
<pie_> infinisil has amusified the bot points reporting
<srhb> {^_^} is a real joker
<gchristensen> okay I had actually literally just woken up, so I'm going to go make coffee. back in a bit :P
<philipp[m]> I think joepie91 has given the whole CoC topic a lot of thought. I would propose they write a first draft for something (only if they want to of course).
<pie_> the reason im on so much about subtlety is i feel the atmosphere is more colloqual without a threat of wrongting
<qyliss> pie_: /msg ChanServ ACCESS <channel> LIST
<pie_> wrongthink
<gchristensen> btw a bunch of people PM'd me about this person before I woke up and thatwas really helpful
<adisbladis> Fwiw the rust coc is fantastic
<philipp[m]> Also, just a word of warning: If it becomes public that we have/are creating a CoC, it will be a troll magnet for a time and things will get a bit ugly.
<NinjaTrappeur> +1000
<pie_> as i said.
<srk> don't feed the trolls ;)
<philipp[m]> They usually calm down after a few weeks but people will use this as a battlefield for stuff that has nothing to do with this project.
<joepie91> philipp[m]: yeah, moderation coverage should probably be sorted before that
<Shados> I have mixed thoughts on CoCs, from observation they tend not to focus on defining transparent mediation and enforcement processes, which I think are possibly the most important bits to do well.
<pie_> i think we shouldnt let this be the trigger for a coc
<pie_> but im dum
<qyliss> I worry they make it hard to moderate
<joepie91> Shados: that is precisely what you should *not* do in a CoC
<pie_> im going to be the 10th man and say it was a false flag :P
<Shados> pie_: then I may be too
<joepie91> so I'm looking at the Rust CoC now and it references the "Citizen Code of Conduct", which... is a dead link?
<qyliss> I trust gchristensen's judgement in moderation, and don't want him to have to justify himself or let that be a barrier to banning a jerk
<joepie91> Shados: that's basically tying moderators' hands behinds their backs in practice
<pie_> qyliss: concur
<JJJollyjim> i feel comfortable in the nixos community because i have experienced the community. a coc could (among other things) be shortcut to that comfort for others.
<joepie91> yes, basically that
<JJJollyjim> qyliss++
<{^_^}> qyliss's karma got increased to 68
<pie_> so, this might be getting into sketchy territory but
<gchristensen> if anyone gets bizarre PMs from kiwiirc, please send me logs
<philipp[m]> How about just not calling it a CoC but a conflict resolution strategy or sth of the like?
<joepie91> philipp[m]: that's what it shouldn't be :)
<Shados> joepie91: Oh? I think that can be what a CoC becomes if you *aren't* clear about how actual incidents are generally meant to be handled. Ultimately processes are just guidelines for human behaviour; moderators and abuse team members are not machines.
<joepie91> Shados: see my explanation earlier. the point of a CoC isn't to set rules or procedures, it's to communicate to well-intentioned outsiders what you do not tolerate (and therefore what they do not need to fear when joining your community)
<pie_> re: keeping humans in the loop
<JJJollyjim> philipp: fwiw if i see a document named something other than code of conduct, i'll be worried about the trolls in the community that they're trying to placate
<pie_> maybe the nixos community doesnt want such a burden, but im quite trustful from what ive seen that community members here will generally do the right thing
<joepie91> Shados: if you introduce rules and procedures, all you're doing is adding attack surface for trolls, who can then figure out a way to misbehave that Technically isn't covered by them, and which moderators can't do anything about because now the CoC implies they must have a CoC-based grounds for moderator action
<philipp[m]> Fair point.
<pie_> so the question of design goals comes up
<joepie91> philipp[m]: if you want a different name, "community rules" is more accurate I think
<joepie91> (even if still not perfect)
<philipp[m]> pie_: I think we can all agree on that. The question is how to communicate that and how to ensure that it stays that way.
<pie_> how do you make people comfortable without introducing rule lawyering, or alienating otherwise upstanding members that look negatively on a politically charged mechanism
<JJJollyjim> i also don't like the idea that a coc exists to make things "family friendly" or "safe for work" necessarily
<JJJollyjim> like the conflation of "being a dick to people" with "swearing" is kinda shitty
<joepie91> pie_: by being deliberately vague about the exact behaviour that gets you banned, and being explicit about the intention behind it (keeping it a friendly and inclusive place for everyone, etc.)
<pie_> JJJollyjim: right, its the lawyer problem
<JJJollyjim> like i said before, a literal "don't be a dick, here's how to contact gchristensen" is good enough for me
<gchristensen> one thing I don't particularly like about CoCs is it sort of makes it the responsibility of the project to teach what the person should have learned in school at 5 years old
<Arahael> Well, I dunno.
<pie_> JJJollyjim: yeah im fine with that, and just stick some form in the channel topic or something
<joepie91> "we don't allow sexism, racism, or any other form of discrimination, and engaging in this will get you banned" is a pretty clear message while not leaving room for rule lawyering
<gchristensen> (I say this liking CoCs)
<philipp[m]> We shouldn't overload gchristensen though.
<Arahael> They can be good to cut through surprisingly entrenched bad cultural practices, eg, by explicitly calling out against discrimination.
<pie_> sidenote, the scope here at the moment is irc
<joepie91> and, to address gchristensen's point, it doesn't imply any responsibility to teach people proper behaviour either :)
<gchristensen> Arahael: very good point
<pie_> ive seen some bad issue threads and i vguely recall those being moderated in an acceptable manner as well
<JJJollyjim> (yeah, replace gchristensen with "one of the following people" or whatever)
<gchristensen> sgtm :)
<pie_> as long as you have upstanding community members with the capacity and ability to handle situations well, if you take part in the nixos community you will see that it is goo
<gchristensen> it would be very cool if we had a few more people doing IRC +o'ing
<joepie91> I think we're actually in a pretty good place already wrt moderation, and the most important thing is 1) communicating that outwardly, and 2) not adding extra barriers/burdens for the moderators
<pie_> so yeah, ok, how much short circuiting do you want and is it good
<Arahael> As a particularly good example, the WHO's rule not to call a disease by any racial description. (Ie, we won't name the "Spanish Flu" in the same way again)
<gchristensen> and to point a finer point on this, I'm off the grid for like 2-3 weeks at the end of Augist. could we put together that group before then?
<Shados> point of contact + existing processes for mediation, conflict resolution, and/or handing out bans becomes useful.
<Shados> joepie91: I think perhaps you and I have a very different mental model of what we're talking about. I'm not thinking of a list of possible infractions and penalties implied for that; ultimately I have no problem leaving general shitty behaviour up to moderators to manage, my concern is more around: what do people do when they have a complaint about someone's behaviour, that for whatever reason isn't being noticed by others? At which point, having a clear
<pie_> i dont supose anyone has been graphing the main channel capacity
<gchristensen> pie_: /
<srhb> gchristensen: Sure :)
<srhb> gchristensen: Maybe we can test out the ban list thing?
<pie_> s/capacity/ user count
<srhb> gchristensen: Easier to test out at scale then
<joepie91> Shados: ah, yeah, I misunderstood what you meant. in that case, I think the "who to contact" is a good thing to have, but I'm not sure how much it would add to have a formal process
<infinisil> Ban list?
<gchristensen> srhb: a good idea -- maybe we could make a couple of channels and experiment
<joepie91> Shados: (so long as complaints are responded to swiftly)
<srhb> Yeah :)
<joepie91> gchristensen: fwiw, I can volunteer for doing +o'ing, though I can't make any time commitments beyond "I'm around a lot" :P
<pie_> re overloading gchristendsen, !mods to ping mods or something , put that in the topic
<pie_> bam
<pie_> dont even need to state who the mods are
<joepie91> (which seems to work well enough in #Node.js)
<pie_> sorry, catching up with scroll meanwhile
<srk> pie_: better not to state who the mods are :)
<joepie91> pie_: it's important to have a way to contact them privately and know who to contact in that case
<joepie91> or how to contact them at least
<pie_> joepie91: ok valid
<joepie91> (in #Node.js this is accomplished by requiring chanops to stay +o)
<srk> I think ##politics hides the mod list of the channel.. which is quite reasonable considering the topic
<srk> joepie91: that's also discouraged by freenode
<joepie91> I am aware
<srk> better to use ChanServ for that
<infinisil> Since I see everything through bot eyes: How about a ,mods command that PM's a random mod
<pie_> Arahael: the people here seem to be pretty good at saying "your opinion is bad and heres why", but ive never seen anyone here bring up politics like THAT here
<gchristensen> or all the mods, infinisil?
<Arahael> pie_: I do have to agree, #nix-chat is pretty cool. :)
<joepie91> bans are handled through chanserv there
<joepie91> the permanent +o is to provide a point of contact
<infinisil> gchristensen: I was thinking, PM one mod, if they don't comfirm it within a couple minutes, send PM to another mod as well, and so on
<pie_> maybe im not sufficiently inclusive about this, but i feel like people need a little skin to be able to survive. that said, this is -chat and you can tell people to discuss controvercial politics elsewhere
<srk> joepie91: I see
<joepie91> infinisil: you still want a way to privately contact mods
<pie_> fail sentence
<pie_> tell people to discuss controvercial political topics in places that are not mail
<pie_> ffs, main xD
<pie_> i guess im the free speech guy here but thats just like my opinion man
<__monty__> infinisil: How about LRU, so you ping mods in order of most likely to still be actively looking at chat?
<infinisil> joepie91: Then the PM to the mod could include "write a PM to <person who typed ,mod> to discuss things" or so
<Shados> infinisil: pm all mods, give mods a response command to 'claim' the issue, pm the non-claimers to let them know it's handled?
<joepie91> pie_: I don't think that's really the right solution. sometimes, difficult discussions do need to be had in places not dedicated to them (like around topics of institutional discrimination), and redirecting those discussions elsewhere seems like a bad solution to the problem of "some people will be assholes"
<infinisil> __monty__: I like that
<joepie91> infinisil: that still requires someone to *publicly* call for mods through a bot though
<pie_> bottom line is thats just like my opinion and i really trust everyone else here to come up with something better than i would. and at the end of the day what really matters to me is the people that are around here, and the ones that are around here seem to be doing a pretty good job keeping it a good place
<infinisil> joepie91: Hm I see yeah
<gchristensen> <3 pie_
<{^_^}> pie_'s karma got increased to 15
<philipp[m]> Can't you just dm the bot?
<infinisil> philipp[m]: Yeah that would work, though not as onvious
<pie_> so something something i feel like if we need to resort to cocs and stuff we"re already somehow giving in to something
<pie_> thats mostly it from my side
<gchristensen> pie_: I look at the CoC as not giving in, but more writing down what we already all know and do
<LnL> do we actually need a mod list? kind of like how the nixos channels are pretty casual in that regard
<__monty__> joepie91: It doesn't have to be public. Could do it in PM but require #channel to be passed.
<qyliss> The mod list is already available through ChanServ
<pie_> gchristensen: what was the slash about btw
<gchristensen> pie_: graphing #Nixos's members
<qyliss> We could document on the website how to see it, maybe
<pie_> sidenote which is just basically restating the above: if you need a formal process for chat moderation you probably already have a bigger problem
<qyliss> On a page about moderation, etc
<__monty__> The topic could say "PM ,mod #channel to {^_^} to request assistance."
<__monty__> Or something along the lines.
<qyliss> I don't think people read topics
<qyliss> At least they don't read all the way to the end
<gchristensen> people might look at a topic for how to find mods in a pinch
<qyliss> maybe
<Shados> I don't tend to re-read them after I join a channel, usually do on the first time
<Arahael> There's bound to be a regular in the channel who knows what to do.
<__monty__> Hey, I'm people!
<srk> yup, #haskell uses Admins: #haskell-ops
* gchristensen has to remember he doesn't behave like most IRC channel members
<pie_> i guess nix might have just been extremely lucky with its community member so far :P (sorry, still trying to get through scroll)
<qyliss> I'd definitely be uncomfortable with permanent +os. That can communicate all sorts of things and "these are the people who have volunteered to moderate" would not be the first thing I thought of.
<gchristensen> being always +o'd is also against freenode policy
<pie_> noone needs to think about the mods unless they are necessary
<pie_> people dont like police on the corner of their street
<gchristensen> and they're almost never necessary
<LnL> when was the last time somebody was banned?
* gchristensen doesn't have enough irc-foo to know how to find out
<infinisil> A couple weeks ago there was somebody
<infinisil> Iirc
<LnL> I don't think we need to do anything all that special, just not having a single person (and tz) would be good
<gchristensen> LnL++
<{^_^}> LnL's karma got increased to 74
<Arahael> LnL: Several minutes ago. ;)
<LnL> oh you :p
<JJJollyjim> are there any mods in nixos-gaming btw?
<JJJollyjim> "kiwiirc: graham and sara won't ban me from this channel so they must hate minority groups and want to endanger them cuz i'm evil and stuff"
<gchristensen> JJJollyjim: just ldlework right now. I'm seeing if I can fix that while he's not here
<srk> ldlework as the owner I guess
<pie_> pm a mod bot <joepie91> infinisil: that still requires someone to *publicly* call for mods through a bot though
<pie_> topic says mod bot is called x
<srk> he left already
<JJJollyjim> lol okay
<JJJollyjim> ah right
<JJJollyjim> sorry that isn't reflected in matrix right
<JJJollyjim> shakes fist
<Arahael> What's matrix?
<JJJollyjim> https://matrix.org
<Shados> xmpp, but bloated :P
<JJJollyjim> federated chat thing
<JJJollyjim> which bridges to irc
<Shados> Which is hilarious, given the XML in xmpp...
<pie_> if there is a big problem it seems several people try to pm the mods already :D <qyliss> I don't think people read topics
<JJJollyjim> xmpp, but it's 2020 and people have mobile devices :P
<pie_> aand Arahael already mentioned that. why am i so slow
<pie_> :D
<qyliss> XMPP works great on mooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooobile?
<qyliss> sorry for my input lag issues lol
<joepie91> pie_: that can work. there's some complexity in redirecting stuff to the correct mod though
<srhb> I thought you were making fun of mobile latency issues :D
<Arahael> Intriguing.
<qyliss> And it has done for years at this point
<joepie91> Shados: Matrix is waaaay less bloated than XMPP :p
<pie_> oh the ops channel approach seems pretty decent too i guess
<Arahael> I once accidentialy DOS'ed the jabber server in my country.
<Shados> In theory it almost could be kinda
<JJJollyjim> idk it probably does, xmpp sadly hasn't really been a thing since i was born
<Shados> But in practice, I'll take prosody or ejabbered over synapse any day :3
<infinisil> qyliss: How can you list mods through ChanServ?
<joepie91> pie_: also, Nix *has* been very lucky so far. but that's going to change, most likely, as it grows more popular. and like I said, the CoC shouldn't be a formal process :P
<qyliss> infinisil: /msg ChanServ ACCESS <channel> LIST
<joepie91> Shados: that's more a Synapse issue...
<joepie91> not a protocol issue
<qyliss> JJJollyjim: there's been a big revival in the past couple of years
<Shados> Like I said, "in theory"
<__monty__> I feel like people here might know. Is there a way to kick through chanserv, i.e., without op'ing yourself? I miss that from snoonet.
<pie_> joepie91: yes and i was trying to think about that phase trnasition
<infinisil> qyliss: Ah neat
<Shados> That said, xmpp is also its own clusterfuck
<pie_> joepie91: elitism has some benefits, and nixos is enjoying some of them
<Shados> My general experiences of communications tech is that everything is terrible and nothing is getting better xD
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<pie_> joepie91: and by that i just mean nixos has a barrier to entry
<joepie91> Shados: and noone ever believes me when I say that it's a Synapse issue, but I now have proof :P https://github.com/matrix-org/synapse/commit/91e886d615dd24ff0258e06470bca0cc8ffe22eb
<Arahael> nixos has a huge barrier to entry.
<pie_> and people entering need to either be able to get throgh problems themselves, or pass the community help filter to be able to use it
<JJJollyjim> idk, i'm definitely willing to believe it is impossible to write a performant matrix server
<JJJollyjim> without massive memory tradeoffs etc
<joepie91> JJJollyjim: why wouldn't it be?
<JJJollyjim> i think it's still too early to tell
<joepie91> I don't think it is - the protocol design is pretty clear, and there's nothing in there with inherent performance impact other than the use of a DAG, which various distributed databases have shown can be handled performantly
<pie_> like, can we just take a moment to appreciate what just happened?
<Shados> At this point I kinda want governments to regulate that companies have to implement gateways if they're deploying a public communications network
<JJJollyjim> because the spec might just require too much computation
<JJJollyjim> with stateres and such
<pie_> and how many people got up to say "no, bad"
<JJJollyjim> joepie91: definitely not saying this for certain
<joepie91> JJJollyjim: stateres can be scoped to diverging segments of the DAG
<JJJollyjim> but most of the synapse performance efforts have been "add more caches"
<joepie91> and only needs to be done once
<Shados> joepie91: It probably is, it's also very likely to be a hell of a long time coming, from what I've seen :<
<joepie91> well yes, but that is a Synapse problem :P
<joepie91> I mean, to be clear, I've been working on this a lot, and the big challenge - that Synapse failed to meet - is an efficient database representation
<JJJollyjim> until there is a second matrix server, i don't know for certain what's a synapse problem and what isn't
<pie_> and said "no, bad" in a very measured manner until ops got around for the definitive ban
<joepie91> (and AFAIK this is known, and it is why Dendrite uses a different DB design)
<JJJollyjim> i have had similar thoughts
<pie_> like, that lead up tho hnnng
<JJJollyjim> i still haven't seen empirical evidence that it's possible :P
<joepie91> pie_: I think that is a positive thing, but also an unscalable thing
<JJJollyjim> (and would be keen to see your project and maybe contribute, if you're trying to make it happen)
<__monty__> JJJollyjim: You should take a look at the P2P Matrix blog post, Dendrite's sounding pretty promising.
<pie_> joepie91: mm, reasonable.
<joepie91> your community burns out real quick when people start having to do that every day
<pie_> yeah
<gchristensen> we really hard-pivoted over to matrix lol
<pie_> ooh that sounds nice <Shados> At this point I kinda want governments to regulate that companies have to implement gateways if they're deploying a public communications network
<joepie91> JJJollyjim: it's mainly in the DB design stage currently. I have a performant design for the connected-DAG part, but still need to figure out a performant way to work disconnected graph chunks into it, without a ton of duplication
<Shados> pie_: Yeah, see, then I wouldn't have to care that some subset of the people I know will only regularly communicate over facebook messenger, or something worse
<joepie91> but there's not much code to look at yet
<joepie91> other than some unpleasantly huge SQL queries
<pie_> Shados: but then muh plaform lockin :)
<Shados> And in fact, for a while I didn't because there was xmpp/facebook interop ._.
<JJJollyjim> (like i literally have an incomplete/abandoned project on this computer that's an efficient database for matrix events)
<Arahael> Shados: There is worse than Facebook Messenger, and that something is not Sametime?
<gchristensen> Shados: I used to thought that was the case, but it turns out the people i wanted to talk to were happy enough to text me or call me when I deleted FB
<JJJollyjim> (not abandoned because it's impossible but because adhd)
<Shados> Skype
<Arahael> Hmm. Not sure if skype is worse than facebook.
<joepie91> https://gist.github.com/joepie91/679dbc11bf02ec6fe7eb2a7688206607 is the most recent version of said query I believe
<joepie91> but I'm not happy with the modifiability of the query yet
<joepie91> JJJollyjim: would be interested to know the design
<JJJollyjim> (and i definitely have intuitions about how much faster matrix would be if my project were finished, but i know that my intuitions could be wrong)
<Shados> gchristensen: I have some strangely stubborn friends, but yeah I could probably get half of them onto something else
<__monty__> Shados: Don't the actual big players already do that, it seems like there's econonmic incentives? Facebook Chat's a good example.
<__monty__> MQTT rather than XMPP now but still.
<Shados> MQTT isn't a federated chat protocol
<joepie91> JJJollyjim: oh also, another project to keep an eye on, which is actually moving ahead faster than my project, is Conduit
<__monty__> You didn't ask for a federated chat protocol. You said gateway. Please don't require everyone to implement XMPP.
<Shados> That's true, but it also doesn't act as a gateway into their chat system AFAIK? If you know differently, I'm interested, please give me some relevant links so I can go poke and/or build things
<JJJollyjim> joepie91: sorry, i think 10 minutes of your messages just arrived at once
<JJJollyjim> and i was talking over them
<JJJollyjim> thanks synapse <3<3
<__monty__> Well, define gateway. I receive and send messages to facebook chat through bitlbee.
<joepie91> huh, odd
<pie_> meh, guy seems to have had a half decent conversation in -lang earlier, a shame
<Shados> joepie91: sled is probably a good db choice here, neat
<Shados> Depending on how they use it
<JJJollyjim> (everyone's messages were delayed, not just yours)
<JJJollyjim> (my homeserver is a mess and often thrashes on swapping but my boyfriend is way too burned out to do any sysadminning and i dont have the creds so i put up with it :P)
<joepie91> ah, right :P
<joepie91> Shados: JJJollyjim: anyway, #conduit:koesters.xyz for the project room
<joepie91> lots of discussion in there, maintainer is a nice person, definitely have a chat with them if you're curious about the design or have suggestions
<JJJollyjim> 👍️ ty
<pie_> i wonder if kiwiirc blogs
<JJJollyjim> yeah
<pie_> im waiting for the fallout
<JJJollyjim> wish their name was more googlable lol
<qyliss> I would expect very little fallout from "the project banned me because of my bill gates conspiracy theories"
<pie_> this is what i was referring to earlier btw, but being a good contrarian is a skill i dont have haha https://www.strive.com/post/the-10th-man-rule
<philipp[m]> Jamie: I had lots of trouble with my homeserver, too until I reapplied the pgsql constraints here: https://github.com/matrix-org/synapse/blob/develop/synapse/storage/data_stores/main/schema/full_schemas/54/full.sql.postgres#L751
<Shados> __monty__: Interesting, but no, sadly that doesn't count. There's a large difference between reversing a chat impl and finding out that the mobile version of it is based on a conveniently friendly and well-known protocol that you can implement, and a chat service deliberately operating an interop gateway. Plus, again, I'd rather it be regulated, so that the damn things actually have some longevity instead of just being part of another round of 'embrace,
<Shados> extend, and extinguish'.
<Shados> I guess I'm just tired of the floor being pulled out from beneath me, albeit here in tiny ways.
<pie_> Shados: thats how they start
<pie_> :D
<pie_> trip once? the floor is lava!
<Arahael> Shados: That depends on how much you trust regulation. :/
<pie_> dont trust regulation, but is it better than the alternative? :/
<Shados> "not very much", at least in respect to most countries and most areas of regulation, my own included.
<Shados> But also... it's typically better than nothing.
<pie_> hmm i feel like there has to be some precedent in regulation for longevity of systems
<pie_> this sounds like something that should be researchable
<Arahael> Well, my country has said: "The laws of maths are commendable, but the rule of law is paramount", or something like that. :/
<pie_> and by for im including adjacent to
<Shados> Ah, you're a fellow Aussie then?
<Arahael> Yes.
<Shados> Because yeah, the encryption stuff is hella fucked
<Shados> Our consumer protection regulations are mostly pretty great though.
<__monty__> pie_: Re the conversation in #nix-lang, not really. Very opinionated with very little actual knowledge backing those opinions. (Just my opinion of course.)
<Arahael> Shados: Imagine my surprise the huge penalties for the CovidSafe app, for craccking it and unencrypting it... And then finding out it wasn't encrypted in the first place.
<Shados> Heh
<pie_> __monty__: ah ok. i havent gotten throgh the backlog
<Arahael> Shados: There are some good things yeah, I seem to be pessimistic these days though.
<joepie91> Arahael: the problem with "regulation is bad" in a capitalist system is that the option of "no regulation" is not really on the table... it is either regulation by a company who *certainly* does not have your best interests in mind, or by a government who *quite possibly* does not have your best interests in mind
<gchristensen> anyone do a lot of hackathons?
<Arahael> joepie91: Yes, pure capitalism has problems.
<qyliss> I used to, many many years ago
<gchristensen> I'm going to deregister #hackathons in a second
<joepie91> I don't generally like things being regulated by governments, but I also recognize that for many things it is the lesser evil in the current socioeconomic climate
<Arahael> joepie91: Which one?
<joepie91> lol
<joepie91> gchristensen: is it looking for a new owner?
<pie_> ok i need to undistract myself, thanks for being great guys, please dont ban me when i say something bad :D gotta get back to unf***ing my life
<Arahael> pie_: I'm sure we'd bring up a CoC if that happens. ;)
<joepie91> gchristensen: because if so, I know someone who feels very strongly about hackathons being community events and it being a bad thing that the term has been coopted for commercial purposes :P
<joepie91> not sure if they'd be interseted
<joepie91> interested*
<Shados> joepie91: What do you mean by "generally" there, given you don't mean "in the world currently"?
<Arahael> joepie91: I was being serious, there are a bunch of quite different socioeconomic climates.
<gchristensen> joepie91: I don't know why I have it
<joepie91> Arahael: the neoliberal-capitalist one
<gchristensen> and I'm going to unregister it
<joepie91> gchristensen: oh actually it;s in the wrong namespace anyway, heh
<Arahael> joepie91: Ah, America, and what the west tried to court.
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<joepie91> Shados: trying to find a way to answer that that isn't half a novel in length...
<Shados> Heh, I feel that
<gchristensen> oh actually it is #hackathon
<pie_> <joepie91> i know a guy who is deeefinitely not joepie91and feels strongly about hackathongs being a community event
<pie_> ftfy
<pie_> jkjk
* Arahael points at the missing space.
<joepie91> pie_: no, it really *isn't* me :P
<joepie91> Arahael: how can you point at a nonexistent thing
<joepie91> !
<Arahael> I was pointing at joepie91and
<joepie91> Shados: well, my best attempt at it: I'm opposed to the general concept of geographically-bound, involuntary government, and feel that government should be based on voluntary association instead - but for a very broad definition of "government", which includes *any* form of government including forms of systemic societal oppression that don't take the shape of a formal institution.
* Arahael isn't sure what any of those terms mean.
<Arahael> Right now, my favorite place is probably NZ. I'm thinking of moving there.
<joepie91> Shados: this is also where my general dislike of government regulation comes from; it is unilateral, there's no way to not be affected by it. but in the same vein, I recognize that the de facto situation *without* it, is one where someone else (usually corporations, in neoliberal capitalism) functionally becomes the government
<joepie91> at least unless the concept of government being based on voluntary associations becomes more widely accepted
<joepie91> until*
<hexa-> <gchristensen> hexa-: were you telling me of a way to create a "#nixos-bans" channel and ban in one place?
<gchristensen> sorted it!
<hexa-> gchristensen: yes I was
<Shados> joepie91: You'd probably get on well with my mum, then; she's a syndicalist anarchist
<gchristensen> hexa-: +b $j:#myproject-bans and +q $j:#myproject-bans yeah?
<hexa-> gchristensen: yep
<joepie91> Arahael: very summarized: you live in country X, that means you are bound by the rules of government X, whether they represent you or not, and they effectively claim all of country X as their ownership
<joepie91> you cannot live on that land without being forced to abide by government X's rules
<gchristensen> hexa-: I'd better practice this somewhere. last time I did fancy things with modes I accidentallied the entire channel and it was very bad lol
<joepie91> Shados: heh. I was trying to avoid the word "anarchism" since people tend to have wildly inaccurate associations with it, but yes :)
<Valodim> joepie91: isn't a "government" at some point just "broad societal coordination"? is your point that this coordination should be more strictly opt-in?
<Arahael> joepie91: THat is a pretty complicated topic.
<pie_> something something "a mans house is his castle"
<joepie91> Arahael: I am aware. hence why I was trying to find a way to describe it without writing half a novel, and trying to avoid the term "anarchism" which is almost always misinterpreted in this context :)
<pie_> wait why am i still here
<hexa-> gchristensen: haha, good choice
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<joepie91> Valodim: my point is that it shouldn't be tied to your existence in a physical location
<Arahael> joepie91: It might be the correct term, regardless. And even so, you tend to be under the laws of *all* the countries you are a citizen of, *and* the country you are in.
<joepie91> Valodim: any(!) forms of government should be opt-in
<Valodim> interesting
<Arahael> And I don't think opt-in works in this case.
<Arahael> G'night!
<gchristensen> hey wai ta sec Arahael
<joepie91> Valodim: that doesn't mean you can't be thrown out of a community if you don't behave within their norms of course, that is normal and fine - the problem is when that extends to not being permitted to being in a *physical location*, as that leads to a situation where all the bits of physical space get claimed by a handful of organizations (the various national governments), which means that you effectively no longer have
<joepie91> the option of choosing to go your own way and build your own community with your own governance system
<joepie91> which means that for a vast chunk of the world population, there is no government that represents them well
<joepie91> and never can be, because we're out of space to claim!
<Valodim> physical proximity and sovereignty do seem like requirements for many forms of cooperation
<joepie91> anyway this is a very superficial description of the matter, there is a lot of complexity behind it
<joepie91> Valodim: physical proximity doesn't require physical *ownership of land*, though
<joepie91> likewise, sovereignty does not require land ownership
<Valodim> hmm
<Valodim> I'm not sure how coordination to build infrastructure - say, streets - could work without some kind of body that has enough sovereignty to do it
<joepie91> and the interesting thing is that land ownership is not actually a universal constant; in human history, it is a relatively recent invention
<joepie91> like, I don't mean 100-years-recent, but relative to the scale of human existence
<pie_> joepie91: we didnt have the capacity to do anything with the land that would warrant it though either?
<qyliss> pie_: you can make people give you things for being on your land
<qyliss> you don't even really need to do anything with it
<pie_> as you gain capabilities the system changes. im not really disagreeing with your point that land ownership is not an inherent property of humanity
<hexa-> gchristensen: [kiwiirc] is logged in as kiwiirc
<joepie91> Valodim: that is a complex topic, and there are multiple proposed models for it. one model, for example, is that one can claim only *use* of land and not ownership; that is, once you stop actively using and maintaining a given piece of infrastructure, your implicit right to it is ceded and anyone else can take it over. another model is built around voluntary cooperation between different communities to build
<joepie91> collectively-agreed-upon infrastructure
<hexa-> gchristensen: so $a:kiwiirc
<pie_> but i dont know yet how to finish my point because i havent figured out that part yet (only some vague ideas)
<joepie91> pie_: sure we did. take fishing for example; there is a lot of warring right now around who's allowed to fish where. it's not like humans didn't catch fish before land ownership was a thing!
<gchristensen> hexa-: I should make a cheat-sheet for this
<pie_> joepie91: overfishing?
<joepie91> pie_: but it involved a different perspective on land; it was seen as a borrowed environment, one you would live off and were expected to care for, and leave better than you found it
<pie_> a lot of things come down to economics and limited resources
<pie_> sorry for not really helping
<joepie91> pie_: as opposed to claiming a monopoly over its bounties
<joepie91> pie_: "limited resources" is much less of an issue than is popularly claimed
<pie_> mm yeah the ceding ownership by lack of maintenance is a concept ive heard of and its....valid
* JJJollyjim uploaded an image: nixos-graph.png (78KB) < https://matrix.org/_matrix/media/r0/download/johnguant.com/VEpZLldfLfLhKDZSvNTGEbJN >
<joepie91> the real problems in current-day society appear to lie in a) poor distribution of resources, and b) artificial consumption (driven by marketing)
<JJJollyjim> pie_: you nerd sniped me
<JJJollyjim> or graph sniped me
<pie_> JJJollyjim: sweet, show us when youre done :D
<JJJollyjim> Arahael: yes come to new zealand
<JJJollyjim> pls dont bring any covid thx
<Shados> joepie91: I'm not sure I'd put "driven by marketing", because there's a lot more to that
<JJJollyjim> wait did it not post?
<pie_> JJJollyjim: no im just bad at reading
<JJJollyjim> do i need to shake my fist at the matrix homeserver again?
<JJJollyjim> lol
<pie_> JJJollyjim: ah well i was more wondeing about all users actually, not just active ones :P
<JJJollyjim> im shocked how little increase there is over time tbh
<joepie91> Shados: it is, nevertheless, a major factor. marketing as an industry specifically exists to exploit cognitive biases and manipulate people into purchasing things they otherwise wouldn't (that is, they have no inherent need or desire for them), or otherwise enrich another at their own cost where they otherwise wouldn't
<pie_> i watched the channel size climb from...im not actually sure how much to now 1100
<JJJollyjim> yeah i'm scraping this from the logs which don't have that :(
<pie_> ;(
<Arahael> JJJollyjim: NZ did very very well there, they have an awesome PM.
<joepie91> Shados: I'm not sure how this translates to English, but in Dutch there's a term, "consumptiemaatschappij" -- a society driven by more and more consumption
<joepie91> almost for the sake of consumption
<JJJollyjim> i need more nix users in nz to help keep the fastly cache warm :P
<joepie91> the marketing industry is the engine of this system (and, more broadly, of growing inequality through capitalism)
<Shados> joepie91: My thought is more that the insanity of advertising came about as a fairly direct result of growth economics as a whole
<pie_> JJJollyjim: consumerism is a thing in english and im preeeetty sure its that?
<joepie91> Shados: sure. but that is because its existence (and I'd call it "marketing" rather than "advertising", as it involves more than just ads) is a prerequisite for that system to be able to function. you cannot endlessly grow by relying on people's natural desires and needs
<Shados> I think you tagged the wrong person there, pie_
<pie_> oops yes wrong tag, meant joepie91
<joepie91> pie_: "consumerism" is more a philosophy, "consumptiemaatschappij" refers specifically to a society that is ailed by it
<joepie91> "consumption society", literally translated
<pie_> aha.
<gchristensen> I think we call it Consumer Culture
<joepie91> coversely, I don't think there's a Dutch translation of "consumerism" :) there's an interesting lesson there about how cultural context shapes language...
<Shados> joepie91: Yeah, but that reverses cause and effect, I think. Marketing came about as a necessary part of maintaining a growth-based economic model, rather than it having already existed.
<joepie91> Shados: I'm not claiming that a growth-based economic model *originates* from marketing! just that marketing is its driver, its engine, the thing that keeps it going
<joepie91> (re: the translation issue, my ten-second hypothesis is that societal problems tend to be viewed as society-wide issues in NL, but as individualistic problems in English-speaking problems, and that is why one language refers to it as a societal ailment whereas the other refers to it as a [personal] philosophy)
<joepie91> err
<joepie91> English-speaking countries(
<joepie91> bit of a freudian slip there...
<joepie91> gchristensen: haven't heard "consumer culture" before btw
<gchristensen> ah, maybe I'm mistaken
<joepie91> it might just be a less common term :P
<joepie91> in totally unrelated, less off-topic news, I am considering doing a proof-of-concept for Nix documentation with MDX
<joepie91> does anyone happen to know a section of the Nix{,OS,pkgs} docs that has a lot of 'special' documentation? eg. blocks of text that go "note if you're using X, then Y", "this only applies to NixOS on <architecture>", etc.
<joepie91> the sort of thing that is typically difficult to represent consistently in documentation systems
<joepie91> cc gchristensen
<joepie91> seems like your kind of wheelhouse :D
<gchristensen> I think like <note> https://tdg.docbook.org/tdg/5.2/note.html
<pie_> joepie91: would lack of such be reflective of the current doumentation infra? i really really really havent been keepng up :/
<pie_> im probably the guy that would be putting crosslinks everywhere if i tried
<Shados> Can anyone suggest me a good CLI or TUI tools for mass editing of music tags, across a variety of filetypes?
<joepie91> pie_: quite possibly. but I'm trying to find the most complex case of custom consistent-formatting requirements in the docs, because I think that MDX is a good solution to this problem, that is left on the table by most other doc infra
<joepie91> even if that requirement is currently solved with a bunch of bold text
<joepie91> gchristensen: do we have specific places in the docs where this is used extensively, that you know of?
<Shados> This reminds me that NixOS documentation stuff being slightly overly smart bit me recently
<pie_> joepie91: whats mdx btw?
<gchristensen> I'm not sure :/ https://github.com/grahamc/docbook.rocks uses notes a few places
<pie_> mozilla documentatin extensions or something? (just made that up)
<joepie91> pie_: https://mdxjs.com/
<pie_> aha
<joepie91> pie_: so Markdown, but instead of embedding HTML, you can embed custom JSX components, which can (experimentally) include Markdown again
<pie_> uhhh, i wouldt mind not needing js to view docs with relatively high functionality
<joepie91> pie_: this does not require JS
<pie_> but ok im getting too far ahead
<pie_> ok
<joepie91> pie_: http://cryto.net/~joepie91/validatem-site/ is built with MDX
<pie_> oh jsx is something else, i was just looking at the url
<joepie91> pie_: the benefit here is that in your documentation/site, you can specify your own custom components for special call-outs etc. that you need in the docs
<joepie91> and use them throughout the docs
<joepie91> without giving up the easy writability/readability of Markdown
<pie_> ok it is js, well nevermind heh
<Shados> joepie91: the nav links are broken
<Shados> so that may have just been an anti-example heh
<pie_> anyway my point is kind of irrelevant if theres renderers for different formats
<joepie91> gchristensen: alright, thanks
<joepie91> Shados: aware, that's just a quickly rsynced copy of the thing I'm still workling on
<joepie91> it's not done yet :)
<joepie91> working*
<joepie91> it will eventually live at https://validatem.cryto.net/ and then the URLs are correct
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<joepie91> pie_: JSX is based on JS, but that doesn't mean it requires *browser-side* JS
<joepie91> in this case I'm using Shayu, a friend's project, basically a static site gen that uses MDX as its authoring format
<joepie91> so the build process uses JS and then it just craps out a pile of static generated HTML like any other static site gen
<Shados> The only think I've documented recently I used mdbook for
<joepie91> pie_: this is the current default layout, for example: https://gist.github.com/joepie91/0fff1eb786eda75e60c4ffc5392ba1fa?ts=4
<pie_> ok
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<pie_> whelp https://www.python.org/dev/peps/pep-0622/ python pattern matching
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<gchristensen> PHP is getting a match operator too
<pie_> or, wlel, i dont actually know what the status of this is
<pie_> everyone is getting these coolio fp gimmicks how will i be the cool kid anymore
<pie_> at least i can have my algebraic data types until everyone switches to rust
<pie_> :P
<joepie91> I think the JS match operator proposal is still stuck somewhere halfway purgatory
<joepie91> if only we could have set literals... then I could just roll a userland match implementation
<joepie91> err. Map literals
<infinisil> Ahhhhhhhhh
<infinisil> I spilled liquid over pretty much my whole
<infinisil> desk
<infinisil> And I just spent like an hour cleaning it up
<infinisil> And another half an hour disassembling my keyboard, because it went all in
<infinisil> Miraculously it still works, but I suspect it will soon die because of this
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<infinisil> Lol, it's startingc already, wthicht you can see from the weird spellings
<infinisil> I can reproducibly type "which" antd it snhtows as whticht
<gchristensen> lol
<gchristensen> oh no I'm sorry infinisil
<cransom> if you want to save it, you should unplug, pull apart what you can, and get to rinsing with alcohol or distilled water and let it dry for a few days
<infinisil> Coding cis gcoing cto wbe a nigchtmare until I gcot a new keyboard!
<pie_> and so infinisils incorporeal eigenself begins to deteriorate
<pie_> i love the failure mode of your keyboard
<infinisil> cransom: I wanted to gcet a kinesis advantage anyways, so I'm just gcoing cto take this as a sign to finally cget it :P
<infinisil> Alternatively, I could write a program to unmess whtat mwy keyboard types
<ajs124> infinisil: if you type enough like this, we can probably figure out your keyboards complete matrix :P
<infinisil> Yeah lol
<pie_> and where on it he spilled things
<infinisil> Only the rigcht side of it (it's an http://ergodox-ez.com/)
<philipp[m]> Tired: Clean the keyboard
<philipp[m]> Wired: patch usb-hid, so that it works again with the new inputs.
<JJJollyjim> omg cursed
<ajs124> With that keyboard, you can probably just flash a firmware hack that detects this and works around it
<gchristensen> I would like my keyboard to detect that I typed :PU and elides the U
* ajs124 is having flashbacks to when he implemeted switch debouncing in software with a median filter that shifted bits through integer variables
<philipp[m]> Oh, is it a special fancy keyboard?
<gchristensen> woof
<adisbladis> infinisil: Don't use it :/
<adisbladis> Wash it off with alcohol
<infinisil> I'll probably try that later today
<cransom> while it's still wet is better. i don't know what was spilled, but once sugar type stuff dries out, it's super hard to get off and corosion starts right away. especially when you have dc voltage across things.
<infinisil> Hmm darn, okay I'll do that right after I finish eating
<infinisil> Oh it looks like the glitches are gone for now at least :o
<infinisil> I spilled a vitamin tablet + water drink
<infinisil> joepie91: Interesting!
<ajs124> RE the experimental feature discussion in #nixos-dev (don't want to spam there): https://i.imgflip.com/466r1u.jpg
<joepie91> pie_: see above page, the "For NixOS users:" block especially, which is represented with a <DistroSpecific> wrapper tag in the source
<joepie91> that is what I meant with markdown inside JSX inside markdown
<joepie91> for comparison, https://nixos.org/nix/manual/#ch-basic-package-mgmt is the original
<joepie91> (the <Placeholder> thing is something I'm still working on)
<infinisil> ajs124: Lol
<pie_> ajs124: ahahahaaha
<joepie91> source/setup so far: https://git.cryto.net/joepie91/nixos-manual-mdx
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<jtojnar> joepie91: that looks good, now I just need to import docbook tags
<jtojnar> and we get best of both worlds
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<joepie91> jtojnar: I mean, *in principle* there is no reason why you couldn't do inline docbook in MDX...
<joepie91> that I know of
<joepie91> whether it's a good idea... eh :P
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<jtojnar> hmm, Nix manual does not use `<prompt>` 😞
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<infinisil> adisbladis: cransom: Well heck, i have no idea how to fully disassembly this keyboard!
<infinisil> I can't get the lowest layers of the key switches off
<__monty__> When all you want to do is provide a default configuration to UTC and end up having to learn about the ins and outs of the tzdata database...
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<ajs124> TIL: IANA still runs a public rsync server at rsync://rsync.iana.org/
<ajs124> It only hosts assignments(?) and the timezone database
<gchristensen> any people here very familiar with +o'ing channels on Freenode?
<infinisil> I shall conclude that I can't fully disassemble my keyboard without more appropriate tools
<cransom> the best reason to acquire more tools.
<qyliss> gchristensen: what do you mean? There's no +o channel mode afaict?
<infinisil> I feel like i need to unsolder things
<gchristensen> qyliss: I mean being a +o :)
<qyliss> Oh I see
<philipp[m]> I'm usually only oO
<joepie91> gchristensen: depends on your definition of "very familiar with" :P
* joepie91 moderates #Node.js, but doesn't know all of the ins and outs of Freenode's moderation tools
<gchristensen> I'll PM anyway :)
<joepie91> ok :)
<philipp[m]> Moderating #node.js sounds like... at least more work than here ^^
<joepie91> philipp[m]: currently, yeah. but I don't expect that to remain the case
<joepie91> somehow ##javascript seems to work as a reasonably effective pincushion for abusive asshats, so relatively little filters through for the popularity of Node
<joepie91> there's still more abuse in there than currently in Nix channels, but as Nix grows more popular and well-known and starts attracting the Certain Linux People, that balance is probably going to tip
<philipp[m]> Yeah, I'm dreading it a little, tbh.
<joepie91> for illustration: the biggest problem in #Node.js is people asking bad questions and not picking up on the cue of "you're asking people for their time, the least you could do is try to respond quickly"
<philipp[m]> Of course I want nix to succeed and many people making use of it and all.
<joepie91> (which is actually considered a violation of community norms in #Node.js, and can result in someone getting banned if they persistently refuse to improve their attitude)
<joepie91> philipp[m]: yeah.
<gchristensen> the best way to keep a culture is to have the community reward good behavior and disincentivize poor behavior (but not punitively, with kindness)
<joepie91> to a degree. there are unfortunately also people who just won't pick up on it
<gchristensen> yeah
<gchristensen> I say "best" but who am I to claim "best"
<hoverbear> Someone gave me a cross compiler
<gchristensen> oh hoverbear we had a lovely chat about CoCs here this morning, you might be interested in the logs (about 5h ago in the logs ,in the topic)
<joepie91> and they're not even necessarily ill-intentioned people, they just genuinely do not catch the hint. in those cases you sometimes have to be a bit more firm and exact about what is expected from community participants (and most of them will actually improve their behaviour after that!)
<philipp[m]> And it's very hard to do with exponential growth at some point.
<joepie91> like, just telling someone "when you ask a question, you are asking people to dedicate a part of their time to your problem - so in return, it is expected that you do your best to understand the answer, and respond quickly enough that it doesn't end up taking someone's entire day" can be enough to fix this issue in many cases
<joepie91> it's kind of an interesting social phenomenon, how many people don't quite 'grok' the social meaning of their asking a question
<cransom> i need to communicate that to some of the devs i work with :(
<joepie91> once it happens in an IRC channel rather than in meatspace
<hoverbear> gchristensen: Will it make me feel angry?
<gchristensen> hoverbear: I don't know what makes you angry, so I can't say no
<gchristensen> hoverbear: but I found it to be a useful and positive conversation
<hoverbear> Fascism :)
<joepie91> as in, a lot of people seem to perceive IRC channels as a sort of search engine that you just have to phrase the question right for :)
<gchristensen> hoverbear: if you scroll back to the inciting incident (banning a person for violating our community norms) that part will be upsetting
<hoverbear> Ok :)
<gchristensen> at least, it was upsetting to the community in general
<gchristensen> (the person's behavior, not the ban)
<drakonis1> ah CoC talk happened earlier today
<gchristensen> drakonis1: yeah!
<gchristensen> it was cool, it went well
<drakonis1> cool beans
<hoverbear> This is great because I think I need `depsHostBuild` to have protobuf
<joepie91> okay, I am legitimately impressed at the 'shell' highlighter in highlight.js
<joepie91> impressed by*
<gchristensen> hoverbear: nice
<joepie91> see the bottom-most code block on https://nixos-manual-mdx.cryto.net/introduction/about-nix/
<hoverbear> gchristensen: It didn't solve it... :(
<gchristensen> oh dang
<hoverbear> My x86 machine can't exec the aarch protoc so I need to provide the x86 one during build time :think:
* gchristensen looks at docs
<hoverbear> This is what I am doing =D
<gchristensen> the triple makes almost no sense to me and this list of ways to provide inputs would probably be better as a table
<__monty__> hoverbear: What's your compiler cross about?
<hoverbear> __monty__: All of my ARMS
<__monty__> You heard it here first people, hoverbear is a suspected spider.
<hoverbear> gchristensen: I agree this could be a map
<hoverbear> __monty__:
<hoverbear> Ohhh maybe it's nativeBuildInputs
<hoverbear> gchristensen: btw did you see openebs is using nix? https://github.com/openebs/Mayastor/blob/develop/nix/pkgs/mayastor/default.nix
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<infinisil> oeuoaeurchrchsnvtw- ch
<infinisil> Whoops
<infinisil> ignore that
<gchristensen> sameeeeee infinisil
<infinisil> xD
<joepie91> mood
<infinisil> I should have the bot say completely random strings from time to time, followed by "Oh sorry, ignore that"
* bqv sees a cool app that works on linux
* bqv smiles
* bqv sees that it uses electron
* bqv cries
<bqv> rinse and repeat
<cransom> yeah. 'oh, it works on mac, linux, android, ios, and windows? ok... just point me to the web interface'
<gchristensen> infinisil: it turns out those get creepy/weird
<philipp[m]> What is the best strategy for a package that got a new update that introduced a pretty big bug?
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<philipp[m]> Start a upgrading PR with a note that this should only be merged when said bug is fixed, so that nobody else upgrades it?
<gchristensen> open an issue upstream, and revert the update with a reference
<philipp[m]> Already filed an issue upstream. I caught the bug trying to package the update, so the version currently shipped in nixpkgs is fine.
<gchristensen> cool, open the PR and put a "do not merge" in there
<philipp[m]> Will do.
<infinisil> philipp[m]: Could also add yourself to .github/CODEOWNERS for the packages files, so you get notified if anybody else makes a PR for it
<__monty__> Isn't putting yourself in meta.maintainers enough for that?
<infinisil> Oh yeah that should work too, I think
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<__monty__> Last time I checked using CODEOWNERS for it was frowned upon : )
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<infinisil> It was? Why so?
<__monty__> Too many people who might want to keep an eye on a couple packages. CODEOWNERS' for bigger things.
<qyliss> CODEOWNERS is a pretty horrible experience also
<qyliss> You get CCed on every PR where somebody accidentally targets master instead of staging or whatever
<infinisil> Hm I see
<gchristensen> do I write this thing in bash against `ii` or do I write this thing in rust with a mediocre irc library ...
<infinisil> I guess codeowners is currently the best option for watching non-packages, but for packages, meta.maintainers is better
<infinisil> gchristensen: "do I write this thing in bash or .." the other one!
<gchristensen> lol
<__monty__> gchristensen: Depends on the thing. Once-off, bash.
<qyliss> It might be easier to just construct the IRC messages yourself if the library isn't very good
<gchristensen> qyliss: true
<gchristensen> I wonder if the library supports alis in some meaningful way
<hexa-> what is "this thing"?
<hexa-> very unlikely
<hexa-> alis is something atheme/shalture have implemented
<gchristensen> I want to enumerate all the #nix-* #nixos-* channels and get information about ban/quiet/access lists
<hexa-> services in general are just a late addition that have been attached to irc
<gchristensen> (and then modify them)
<srk> in declarative way? :)
<gchristensen> that sounds like a great idea, and I would love it if somebody built that tool :P
<srk> there's also Sigyn (limnoria based) used by Freenode, you can also try asking #freenode
<gchristensen> isn't sigyn mostly for spam management?
<hexa-> sigyn requires oper permissions to work
<gchristensen> we've used sigyn many times
<hexa-> there is limnoria with chantracker, but.
<hexa-> tbh, use some language that has a decent library around irc
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<cole-h> infinisil: Curious why you're switching away from an ergodox to a kinesis advantage? Is the kinesis advantage better in some way?
* cole-h was contemplating getting an ergo keyboard soon
<ashkitten> augh
<gchristensen> overall, ergo stuff is very personal and works for some but not others. the ergodox never worked for me
<ashkitten> so planet computers replied to my email
<ashkitten> asking what keyboard layout i wanted since i selected "other"
<cole-h> I see. I was mostly eyeing the ergodox because it uses QMK, which means I can do my caps->esc if tapped, caps->ctrl if held stuff relatively easy.
<infinisil> cole-h: Not switching just yet, but I just heard a lot of good things about the kinesis
<cole-h> Right now, I'm using the interception-tools' caps2esc (with a patch making the aforementioned functionality work)
<ashkitten> they already sent out a survey to every backer that selected "other" asking what keyboard layout they want, months ago
<philipp[m]> I don't want to be that guy but switching my keyboard layout really helped me.
<philipp[m]> THe first few months were an unproductive hell though.
<cole-h> (btw gchristensen you're still +o in nixops)
<srk> philipp[m]: to which one?
<cole-h> (and -borg)
<hoverbear> Lol now you can watch me fail to build with nix live! https://www.twitch.tv/a_hoverbear
<philipp[m]> neo2. Optimised for German but also works well for English.
* srk wants to try building https://github.com/JesusFreke/lalboard/
<infinisil> I'm not sure if switching keyboard layouts helped me type in any way, but it sure made me think about the whole keyboard mapping problem a lot more!
<philipp[m]> I need my Ümläüts!
<infinisil> I currently don't have umlauts on my keyboard, instead I have a file ~/notes/umlaute just containing äöü which I copy whenever I need them :P
<samueldr> philipp[m]: easy, download a heavy metal album and copy-paste from the IDv3 tags
<qyliss> you don't have a compose key?
<samueldr> (that's the real answer)
<qyliss> I just type <compose>"u and out comes ü
<infinisil> qyliss: Nope, I have a very custom layout
<philipp[m]> It helped me not cramping up and also what might have been early symptoms of cts went away.
<infinisil> Which is actually just programmer dvorak with like one change
<philipp[m]> ι χαν εεν ωριτε ιν γρεεκ λεττερσ!
<infinisil> gchristensen: ... unexpected!
<__monty__> Greek alphabet but not greek? >.<
<gchristensen> haha
<bqv> it's transliterated
<philipp[m]> Yeah, I'm just a poser.
<bqv> "I can ??? write in greek letters!"
<__monty__> even
<philipp[m]> neo2 was made by mathematicians, I believe so they made a layer for greek letters.
<bqv> oh 'een'
<bqv> ok
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<bqv> this is my mobile keyboard http://imgur.com/4FgnZRc
<bqv> it even has greek letters!
<bqv> just, not all of them
<__monty__> That 404's for me.
<philipp[m]> That link is not working for me.
<philipp[m]> This is the layout in all it's 6 layer glory: https://neo-layout.org/
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<infinisil> That's packed
<__monty__> How nice is it to use? I've had a very similar idea for keyboard design.
<bqv> it works remarkably well
<bqv> i don't think i could go back to a pc104 layout
<bqv> i wish people would be as creative as this more often
<philipp[m]> Oh, so you just press combinations to get letters or how does it work?
<bqv> swipe
<__monty__> Why do mobile phone keyboards reproduce the silly standard layouts anyway? Alphabetical would be so much simpler.
<philipp[m]> How is it called?
<philipp[m]> Preach!
<bqv> messagEase keyboard
<bqv> it's about as hard to learn as dvorak etc
<bqv> annoyingly it's not open source
<bqv> or i'd star and contribute
<philipp[m]> Yeah, also was surprised by that. It certainly looks like it's FOSS.
<bqv> yeah, heh
<bqv> i mean i'd bet it's simple enough to reverse engineer, if feeling impolite
<bqv> and it's not like it has had an update in the last many years i doubt they'd care
<infinisil> Japanese mobile keyboards also work like this btw
<infinisil> You tap and swip up/down/left/right to produce different results
<bqv> tenkey, yeah
<bqv> there's a few gold additions that tenkey doesn't have
<bqv> like the capitalisation is also a swipe, all the additional accent and symbol characters, the numbers on the other side, if you swipe northeast from space it's CTRL, and northwest is ALT, there's a middle button for copy, cut, paste, and select all, and enter's in the middle too
<bqv> it has an emoji keyboard bottom middle swipe up diagonal too, but it's a very old unicode set
<etu> gchristensen: [php-match-operator] ohmy, that's something I've really liked when I've looked into Rust.
<etu> gchristensen: But the vote didn't pass :(((
<gchristensen> aw :(
<philipp[m]> The feeling when you think emacs is crashed, but magit is just working on nixpkgs for half a minute.
<neeasade> lol
<cole-h> I felt that
<bqv> same
<bqv> so it's legal to decompile an apk, but it's illegal to then publish that source compiled to the app store
<bqv> but is it then legal to at least post it to github?
<bqv> where my legal trolls at
<bqv> the app is all but abandoned, but i want to avoid being sued
<qyliss> it is probably not legal
<qyliss> unless the license of the software says you can
<pie_> something something copyright
<qyliss> or possibly the license of the store
<qyliss> *EULA of the store
<qyliss> Just like you can't rip a bluray and put it on github
<qyliss> Actually, more like how you can't do that with a CD, because with a bluray copy protection comes into it
<bqv> argh
<bqv> there's no real way around that is there
<bqv> what if i port the entire thing to kotlin
<bqv> then none of the original work is in there
<bqv> technically it's inspired
<qyliss> would be a derivative work
<qyliss> best you could do is reverse engineer it
<bqv> fscking copyrights....
<qyliss> Very very unlikely you'd get sued though
<qyliss> They'd probably just send a DMCA to GitHub, and then GitHub would take it down
<qyliss> (IANAL)
<bqv> hmm
<bqv> i mean i am in a different country
<bqv> so yeah that makes it even less likely
<qyliss> That's not to say that you *couldn't* be sued, and lose, though
<bqv> danger is the spice of life eh..
<bqv> i dunno, i might. i have the source at least, and it'd be a fun way to learn kotlin
<qyliss> If you do this you should be very clear where the code comes from, so other people don't mistake it for code they have permission to use
<bqv> fair point
<jtojnar> I am starting to like the thought of MDX more and more
<jtojnar> I just cannot find how to use rst roles within rst inline code literals
<energizer> jtojnar: what are you trying to do there?
<energizer> why does it say <code>
<jtojnar> energizer: have an inline code literal that mentions an option
<jtojnar> not sure how the nesting could be even possible when restructured text uses the same character for opening and closing literals
<jtojnar> that is one thing markdown did right with links
<energizer> jtojnar: so you want something like (pseudocode) :code:{:option:{environment} = [];}
<energizer> ?
<jtojnar> exactly
<energizer> you could write a role that supports that, but i think a better idea is to just write a role that supports :nix:`environment = [];` and which already knows about nixos so it can provide the link itself
<bqv> oof, packages being removed.
* bqv adds perl and rsync to systemPackages
<joepie91> <infinisil> I should have the bot say completely random strings from time to time, followed by "Oh sorry, ignore that"
<joepie91> make sure to strt them with cccjgjgkhcbb
<joepie91> start*
<infinisil> What's that?
<joepie91> bqv: that keyboard does the thing where you press a key and then swipe it in a given direction to select a letter?
<bqv> yes
<joepie91> infinisil: yubikey OTP :P
<joepie91> infinisil: it's what a yubikey craps out as a 'keyboard' when you press it unprompted
<jtojnar> how good is MDX tooling?
<bqv> ccccccktufbhcejnknftndkefhlrclninclgrkbgdkhl
<joepie91> bqv: nice. one to add to my list of keyboards that work like this
<bqv> oh shit
<bqv> so it does
<bqv> ...i wasn't expecting the enter too
<infinisil> Hehe
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<joepie91> bqv: (list currently contains DSOrganize and Steam Big Picture mode)
<joepie91> bqv: and this is why ccc codes are a meme on IRC :D
<bqv> heh
<infinisil> Hm what other random-looking strings are there
<joepie91> jtojnar: there is an MDX implementation. :P I'm starting to see it used in a few places by now
<infinisil> I guess something base64 encoded
<samueldr> I *think* I have a binary file with debug symbols, what tools can I use to best prove this was built from a specific codebase?
<energizer> i really think that annotating code like that is just busywork
<joepie91> jtojnar: VS Code has syntax highlighting for it, dunno about others
<joepie91> github seems to render it? minus components
<samueldr> I need to ring some OEMs up and make them beat some sense into mediatek (if at all possible)
<joepie91> or maybe with components and it just quietly ignores nonexistent ones, not sure
<cole-h> sphalerite: Just read your recent Windows-on-NixOS part 2 blog post for Mayflower -- re: "the caches didn't improve boot speed" have you tried dropping memory cache?
<joepie91> but yeah, MDX is not as widely supported as markdown proper, but it seems widely-supported enough by now that it's a viable option for docs
<jtojnar> the GitHub rendering will not work for any format that we will extend, unfortunately
<cole-h> sphalerite: Maybe this is only applicable since I don't use my Linux host while the VM is up (due to only having a single GPU), but may be worth looking into
<joepie91> jtojnar: not sure if you saw my earlier effort on a docs-in-MDX proof-of-concept and this was in response to that, or you just happened to be thinking of MDX?
<samueldr> looks like objdump --syms confirms it has debug symbols
<sphalerite> cole-h: oh, cool :)
<sphalerite> cole-h: hm, I'm not sure how that would help?
<cole-h> I also had multiple minute startup times, but after doing that, it sped up significantly.
<sphalerite> Rather on the contrary, if it's bottlenecked by IO
<sphalerite> cole-h: are you using huge pages for your memory backing?
<cole-h> sphalerite: I don't really understand either. I just know that it *did* work :D
<cole-h> No, I'm not.
<jtojnar> joepie91: yeah, liked it more than Asciidoc and rST so far
<sphalerite> aah that'll be why then
<joepie91> right :)
<jtojnar> joepie91: it can combine the conciseness of markdown with the flexibility of docbook
<joepie91> jtojnar: yep, that was exactly my line of thinking
<joepie91> opt-in complexity
<sphalerite> cole-h: try using huge pages, that'll allow the VM to get its memory in big contiguous chunks and should improve the time-to-POST a lot — similarly to dropping caches, but without losing the caches :)
* cole-h needs to look into dynamic hugepages
<cole-h> I only have 16G, and regularly consume nearly that amount, so I can't afford to lock away 24G like you :P
<sphalerite> cole-h: time-to-POST was insignificant in my case, what I was trying to improve was the time for which the windows spinner was showing
<jtojnar> joepie91: the thing I want most is a markup inside code literals (e.g. https://github.com/NixOS/nixpkgs/pull/91213#discussion_r445103443, https://github.com/NixOS/nix/pull/3741)
<{^_^}> nix#3741 (by jtojnar, 2 hours ago, open): doc: Add prompt elements
<cole-h> Oh, I see. I misunderstood
<energizer> jtojnar: you want links, not markup, right?
<cole-h> sphalerite: Interested in reading the next blog post(s) on that -- I've had some (maybe IO-related) slowdowns after switching the VM to run on zfs, so interested in seeing if you ever find a way to resolve them
<cole-h> (e.g. audio crackling/popping)
<bqv> ah damn, i've just realised a sideffect of me now having a static home ip is that i can't run a public tor node without risking being blacklisted by every site under the sun
<sphalerite> cole-h: oh, interesting — previously you were using raw block devices?
<jtojnar> energizer: not just links, also callouts (side notes associated to a place in the code listing)
<cole-h> No, I was actually using a raw disk image on my Arch system as well
<cole-h> e.g. /var/lib/libvirt/images/windows10.raw
<sphalerite> but on ext4?
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<cole-h> Yep
<joepie91> jtojnar: I'm currently working on that with MDX
<joepie91> + Shayu
<jtojnar> energizer: and masking shell/repl prompts
<joepie91> jtojnar: trying to see if I can convince react-syntax-highlighter to let me do this :)
<sphalerite> ah right, and you moved it to a file on zfs, or a zvol?
<joepie91> jtojnar: my testcase for this currently is the third code block in https://nixos-manual-mdx.cryto.net/basic-package-management/, that currently shows a `<Placeholder>` thing - that should at some point be interpreted as a special marker
<cole-h> sphalerite: I'm still unclear on the difference, but I have rpool/system/var (and also rpool/system/libvirt-images for testing)
<energizer> jtojnar: ok. that's not built into sphinx but probably a few hours of work
<jtojnar> energizer: the which one?
<sphalerite> cole-h: but those are both filesystems?
<cole-h> They were both created with `zfs create` and appear in `zfs list`, so maybe? :x Sorry, still unclear on the meanings of the various terms
<sphalerite> cole-h: maybe try using a zvol — `zfs create -V 50G rpool/vm/windows` for example. Then you'll have a 50GB block device at /dev/rpool/vm/windows, and that might have better performance characteristics
<energizer> jtojnar: any of these. i think putting <option> into a code block is a mistake though. less work to just parse the code
<sphalerite> cole-h: filesystems and zvols are different types of dataset — a filesystem can contain files, while a zvol is a "virtual" block device that lives in the pool
<cole-h> sphalerite: Have you done any tuning of the recordsize?
<sphalerite> no
<cole-h> sphalerite: OK, I understand now. Thanks for the explanation.
<sphalerite> they can be used in much the same ways as qcow2 images, but live directly in zfs
<cole-h> sphalerite: I see, so `zfs create -V ...` is creating the VM image itself... How would I copy the contents of my current image to the new zvol?
<energizer> jtojnar: for inline code, i'd use intersphinx, not :code: like this https://trio.readthedocs.io/en/stable/reference-io.html
<jtojnar> energizer: I am not sure parsing the code is that easy. if someone proves me wrong by implementing it, I will be more than happy, but I do not want to muck with pipelines
<energizer> jtojnar: you're going to be parsing code either way
<jtojnar> energizer: I do not need to do that with Docbook, and I suspect I would not need to do it with mdx either
<jtojnar> I want to have the nix-specific code as minimal as possible
<energizer> jtojnar: can you give an example of this feature in docbook?
<jtojnar> intersphinx looks like it needs to be standalone too
<energizer> standalone?
<energizer> i see
<cole-h> Oh, I guess I could probably just pipe the image into `zfs recv`
<energizer> jtojnar: that is a good example of busywork imo
<jtojnar> 🤷‍♀️
<jtojnar> I like hyperlinks
<joepie91> I do think the NixOS docs are overspecified in places with special tags, but I also think that the "what documentation system are we going to choose" bikeshed should probably be painted before we stock up on paint rollers for "should we annotate all syntactic elements"
<energizer> hyperlinks are good, yes, but computers can parse code by themselves, we dont need to tell them how to do it
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<energizer> joepie91: deciding on a list of requirements is a good first step to picking a doc system
<jtojnar> if someone teaches computers how to do that, I will be more than happy to leave it to them
<joepie91> energizer: I think that in this case, it actually isn't. IMO, a *good* documentation system should support the answer to that going in any direction, now *or* in the future.
<joepie91> we might decide in the future that actually, annotating things is stupid, and then we don't want to be stuck with everything in a documentation system that's overly complex for the now-simpler requirements
<joepie91> or vice versa, we might decide in the future that we want to annotate more, and not be stuck with a format that cannot support that requirement
<joepie91> this is a big part of why I'm suggesting MDX; the opt-in complexity
<joepie91> so that it can likely deal not just with the current requirements, but also future ones, without needing to rebuild the entire docs infra again
<energizer> i'm looking at https://mdxjs.com/getting-started and i see no syntax highlighting
<joepie91> syntax highlighting is implementation-defined
<joepie91> (which I'm quite happy with, considering my experiences with many different syntax highlighting implementations over the past several years)
<joepie91> energizer: the syntax highlighting is a bit more obvious at the bottom here: https://nixos-manual-mdx.cryto.net/introduction/about-nix/
<energizer> is it all statically built on the server side?
<energizer> (no clientside js)
<joepie91> energizer: correct (there is no server-side involved either in this case though, I am building locally and just deploying the build to a remote server)
<joepie91> I'm building the proof-of-concept with Shayu, which is a static site gen that uses MDX
<joepie91> energizer: another thing I'm working on, that actually has some navigation :P is https://validatem.cryto.net/
<joepie91> built the same way
<joepie91> (yes I totally reused the design for the PoC)
<sphalerite> cole-h: using dd/pv/cat/cp/your choice of tool that copies data from A to B :)
<energizer> ok
<cole-h> Can I `dd if=img of=rpool/...`?
<sphalerite> cole-h: yep
<energizer> joepie91: looks pretty good
<cole-h> I figured that would try to write to the file `rpool/...`
<sphalerite> cole-h: well, /dev/rpool/... but yes :)
<cole-h> Oh, right
<sphalerite> or cd /dev first ;)
<joepie91> energizer: anyway I am currently working on the annotating-things-in-code-blocks thing. since syntax highlighting is implementation-defined, it's somewhat dependent on the highlighting implementation being used, but I *think* it is possible with the one I am using right now
<savanni> Is there any documentation on setting up gnupg on nixos? I'm needing to do things like key generation and signing and whatnot, so it's not totally passive. But I'm having a terrible time with pinentry and the agent.
<sphalerite> savanni: have you set programs.gnupg.agent.enable = true; ?
<savanni> In /etc/nixos/configuration.nix? yes.
<bqv> if y'all had to get a cheap linux laptop / thin client these days, what would you go for?
<savanni> Also added gnupg to `environment.systemPackages`, and I set `programs.gnupg.agent.pinentryFlavor = "gnome3"` and `programs.gnupg.agent.enableSSHSupport = true`
<bqv> i have a chromebook but i might donate it to my partner and get something a tad more powerful
<samueldr> (in what's available in canada) I haven't found anything remotely fitting inexpensive and passable
<sphalerite> bqv: I'd say chromebook, but that might not be the answer you're looking for :D
<cole-h> Anybody with a kinesis keyboard know if it's possible to have different actions based on tap vs hold of a key?
<samueldr> other than a chromebook
<samueldr> if you're in the USA there may be that ryzen walmart laptop
<sphalerite> bqv: "a better chromebook" :p
<bqv> heh. fair enough
<bqv> i guess there's always larger, newer chromebooks
<samueldr> I found there's a drought of non-premium non-cheap chromebooks, at least available here
<__monty__> joepie91, jtojnar, energizer: Just FYI I *think* the format for the docs was decided to be reST. The docs RFC was closed and a new one proposing reST is being written afaik.
<samueldr> there is also a drought of premium chromebooks available here
<bqv> let's see what amazon has to offer
<bqv> praise be to bezos
<samueldr> if you're un the USA, I'd really look at reviews of that inexpensive ryzen wal-mart laptop
<bqv> __monty__: oh, no more xml? that's an excellent move
<bqv> samueldr: i am british, fortunately
<joepie91> __monty__: that is not my understanding
<bqv> or unfortunately
<samueldr> hard to know :)
<bqv> :p
<__monty__> joepie91: The comment you linked clearly shows the RFC is closed and a new one's being written proposing reST. I didn't say you can't propose your own RFC putting forth MDX.
<gchristensen> I think the potential misunderstanding was "the format was decided"
<__monty__> Well, if you read between the lines...
<jtojnar> yeah, we decided that reST is the best we are aware of but still leave a space for competing RFCs
<__monty__> Call it decided in all but name if you will.
<savanni> Rebooted my machine and all of those settings worked.
<gchristensen> savanni: nice!
<gchristensen> __monty__: I think your "decided" could sound like it is a "fixed" process, but it isn't
<savanni> I suppose... I'd rather understand why it wasn't working, but I also don't really understand what I'm working with.
<jtojnar> I do not think MDX was evaluated and I might switch to support that instead
<jtojnar> though I am not sure on the specifics of multiple competing RFCs
<__monty__> gchristensen: Sure, I hope it's clear by now that that's not the case.
<gchristensen> I hope so too :)
<joepie91> jtojnar: it wasn't evaluated, AFAIK. I brought it up once I think, and was asked to produce a proof-of-concept, but until now hadn't actually gotten around to it
* joepie91 has too many projects
<gchristensen> joepie91: hard same
<jtojnar> multiple shepherds including myself were not fully convinced by reST but we agreed that it is the best way forward from the formats considered
<pie_> I bought some label paper from the store and I have no idea what the template for it is :I
<gchristensen> jtojnar: thanks for that
<jtojnar> if MDX proves to be good enough, it might still be chosen in a different RFC
<joepie91> jtojnar: speaking of which, do you see any obvious concerns with MDX / the proof-of-concept as it is so far, that need to be addressed for it to work for Nix* docs?
<joepie91> so that I can keep them in the back of my mind
<joepie91> (other than the annotation requirement in code blocks)
<gchristensen> (is that a requirement?)
<jtojnar> link management is major pain point in other formats
<joepie91> well, I'm treating it as one anyway :P
<joepie91> jtojnar: in what sense? inter-page references?
<jtojnar> that will be handled by Shayu, I would guess?
<jtojnar> both interpage and interdocument
<gchristensen> I think even plain commonmark would be fine
<joepie91> jtojnar: can you give an example of each?
* joepie91 is not sure what the difference is
<jtojnar> we want to be able to link to sections, paragraphs, definitions
<jtojnar> so there needs to be a way to reference them (in Docbook xml:id)
<joepie91> right. so just general-purpose anchor references?
<joepie91> possibly cross-page
<jtojnar> yes
<joepie91> right.
<jtojnar> in docbook it is nice you can just add xml:id attribute to anything
<jtojnar> in Pandoc markdown you can add `{#foo}` after headings and some other elements
<joepie91> jtojnar: so inter-page references (by path, with title autofill) are a possibility already, pending a change in the Shayu internals (whose author is a friend of mine, so :P) - I need to look into anchors, because pandoc's conversion output suggests that there exists some form of anchor definition in some dialect of Markdown... but work, it did not
<jtojnar> I guess we could just have `Anchor` component
<andi-> What is the bus factor on Shayu? (First time I hear of it)
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<joepie91> jtojnar: sure. but if there's native Markdown syntax for it, that'd be nicer
<jtojnar> yeah, commonmark does not have one
<joepie91> andi-: depends on how you count. it's currently maintained by one person (said friend), but a good chunk of the internals design is based on my input, and it's a static site gen so the internal complexity isn't that high to begin with
<gchristensen> I don't know why we need all these features that so many projects can produce high quality documentation without
<joepie91> andi-: most of the complexity is in the MDX implementation, which has a higher bus factor
<samueldr> don't forget that any change to anchor IDs **have** to have a plan for migration, so links don't end up broken
<andi-> do you have a link? Can't find one after brief google / GH search
<joepie91> andi-: Shayu itself is https://shayu.it/, but the site is a bit outdated, as it is still relatively experimental
<andi-> joepie91: thanks
<joepie91> samueldr: I think that for a static site gen type of setup, that's more a sysadmin concern than anything
<samueldr> meaning?
<joepie91> that is, if you decide to change a path, you're probably going to need a redirect setup in the httpd or in a .htaccess file or whatever
<samueldr> a plan still needs to be drafted and part of the migration process
<joepie91> since it's all static files
<samueldr> and you can't 301 anchors
<gchristensen> anchors aren..^
<joepie91> yes I was trying to get to that :p
<samueldr> and note: this is not about a specific format :)
<samueldr> only a concern that is true
<joepie91> for on-page anchors, it's probably more a process issue; leaving the old anchors in place when 'changing' one
<samueldr> when gchristensen made that first attempt at splitting pages, it was part of the plan
<joepie91> you could do some fancy external mapping if you don't want to keep the full history of anchors in the doc itself
<joepie91> but rather in a separate history file
<samueldr> joepie91: that also implies we can produce specific anchors on the format, which i think the discussion was saying some formats don'T allow it
<joepie91> samueldr: right. I can only speak for MDX - it is possible in MDX for certain, the question is more whether it can be done with native syntax or needs component syntax
<jtojnar> yeah, pure commonmark does not (without escaping to HTML)
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<joepie91> so that only the most recent anchor name actually needs to be in the file
<joepie91> in either case a custom hook could be implemented that automatically adds historical anchors during the generation phase, based on a separate history file
<joepie91> in the doc*
<joepie91> or alternatively you can just keep the old anchors and add a new one below it :)
<joepie91> gchristensen: that structure is definitely an improvement over the current manual, heh
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<gchristensen> it is the current manual
<joepie91> gchristensen: structure, not content
<joepie91> :P
<gchristensen> it is the same structure
<joepie91> no? it is not one huge file
<gchristensen> that is a rendering concern :) it is the same documentation input rendered slightly differently
<gchristensen> also, the search actually works three
<gchristensen> there*
<joepie91> that is what I meant with 'structure'
<joepie91> it's definitely not 'slightly' from a usability perspective :P
<gchristensen> samueldr: I had forgotten how really very nicely we got these docs to look
<gchristensen> a shame xsltproc was so slow :(
<pie_> woo time to work on label printing
<pie_> turns out yo can manually input the sizes into libreoffice in the new ->label thing
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<pie_> gotta have or take measurements tho..
<gchristensen> hey hey jmarhee
<pie_> or use math
<gchristensen> fancy seeing you here
<joepie91> you seem to be having decidedly more fun with label printing than I ever have, heh
<jmarhee> helloo
<pie_> joepie91: meh not really
<pie_> i might have to come up with a nonobnoxious scheme of not printing over already removed labels from the a4 page
<samueldr> gchristensen: they can still look like those whatever the input format is :)
<__monty__> joepie91: Would this setup be restricted to HTML as output?
<__monty__> Anyone here happen to know how I'd go about either reporting or fixing a typo in a freedesktop.org spec?
<jtojnar> __monty__: they have specs on their gitlab now
<joepie91> andi-: btw, for an example of a recent Shayu setup, you can have a look at the repo for my PoC :P https://git.cryto.net/joepie91/nixos-manual-mdx/
<joepie91> __monty__: unsure. in principle neither Markdown nor JSX are tied to HTML as output, but I don't know if there exist MDX implementations that render to a format other than HTML
<qyliss> Markdown is if you include the part where you can include arbitrary HTML
<jtojnar> according to https://mdxjs.com/advanced/ast#mdxast, it uses JSX instead of HTML
<joepie91> qyliss: that gets replaced with JSX in MDX
<joepie91> yeah, that
<gchristensen> qyliss: yeah we definitely couldn't do that, since we almost definitely need to target man pages
<jtojnar> so we could just not import HTML elements (not sure if the implementation allows disabling that)
<jtojnar> I imagine we would have a HTML variant of the elements and then docbook one (and make man pages from the docbook set)
<joepie91> is there a particular reason why that would work better than HTML -> manpage?
<joepie91> (possibly simplified HTML output)
<jtojnar> not sure how rich the groff syntax is
<__monty__> Not very.
<jtojnar> I would expect HTML might be poorer (since groff has even a math element apparently)
<joepie91> HTML being as widespread as it is, I feel like someone must have at some point implemented a to-manpage converter; and that seems like it would involve a lot less tooling stacked together, and a lot less requirements on each individual bit of tooling
<joepie91> eg. "output different HTML" is going to be a much easier requirement to fulfill than "output a different format entirely that is not HTML"
<pie_> headline a bit misleading
<jtojnar> but if there is good and easy HTML → groff conversion, omitting docbook would be great
<bqv> at a glance, and from checking out nix.dev, i very much like reST and sphinx
<pie_> what its saying is that you cant create a local account on installation unless you disconnect the internet first
<joepie91> anyway, brb bath time
<pie_> which isnt much better
<pie_> oh how i hope these companies die a terrible death
<pie_> they wont though
<pie_> or are they deliberately trying to undermine themselves
<bqv> you're trying to use windows
<pie_> no
<bqv> that's literally your entire problem
<bqv> oh
<samueldr> that's not a helpful reaction anyway
<pie_> also thats not how tihs works
<pie_> samueldr: thats what i meant, thanks
<pie_> not that i disagree
<pie_> but it doesnt help
<bqv> i mean economic threats don't help either :p
<samueldr> but, why would you use a $computing_device without an internet account?
<bqv> there is no reaction that would be helpful, unless i'm missing something
<samueldr> it's just as useful as a coffee maker without a subscription!
<__monty__> jtojnar: Well, a crucial part of HTML, it claims the two distinguishing letters in the acronym after all, is links imo. And groff doesn't have those so imo it's a poorer format.
<__monty__> Seriously, why do we still not have man pages with links to other man pages? : ( (I know info exists.)
<samueldr> bqv: personally it's the tone of blaming the user on their action in what is almost a stereoptypical manner
<samueldr> people may need windows
<samueldr> even if they don't want or like it
<bqv> i thought that was kind of endearing in these kind of communities
<samueldr> sometimes it's hard to tell, that's why :)
<bqv> nobody really wants windows, so we poke fun at those who have to use it
<bqv> hmm, ok
<samueldr> don't yuck another person's choice, and it's probably going to be fine
<pie_> makes me want to, to borrow a hungarian phrase, stab myself in the nuts
<bqv> i don't think that's unique to hungary...
<energizer> all operating systems have major problems
<pie_> not like this dot f l v
<bqv> im sorry for starting whatever discussion happens from here on
<pie_> maybe windows and mac are just trying to maximally milk everything before they die
<energizer> for example, nixos doesn't have the concept of multiple users with access to different files
<samueldr> energizer: uh?
<energizer> world readable store
<philipp[m]> pie_ Aren't we all?
<energizer> why
<samueldr> ah, secrets in the store, I see
<energizer> not secrets in the sense of keys, but opsec material: source code, config, data
<gchristensen> truth
<philipp[m]> Those things should all be considered public knowledge in opsec, imho
<gchristensen> some orgs may want to consider it public but handle it very carefully anyway
<pie_> compartmentalization works pretty well
<gchristensen> for example some companies work hard to keep internal teams from seeing each other's code
<energizer> philipp[m]: depends on the threat model. some common ones have multiple users on the same machine who dont trust each other
<pie_> also something something rate limiting
<philipp[m]> That threat model gave me nightmares back in my university times...
<philipp[m]> Without any involvement of nix or it's store, just plain old debians.
<sphalerite> you'd think that nowadays internal teams that can't see each other's code also don't work on the same (virtual) machine
<sphalerite> but of course, that sort of thing has to exist somewhere in the world :D
<philipp[m]> It's everywhere in science, but their code is illegible anyway :D
<philipp[m]> (still love you, my dear meteorologists)
<energizer> what's the point of open sourcing windows?
<jtojnar> __monty__: yuck looks like almost no semantic markup https://www.man7.org/linux/man-pages/man7/groff_man.7.html#Description
<joepie91> energizer: same answer as "what
<joepie91> oops
<jtojnar> crosslinks are just .BR mandb (8)
<joepie91> energizer: same answer as "what's the point of open sourcing software" in the past
<joepie91> because it's become an expectation
<joepie91> if you want to compete
<energizer> joepie91: but people are paying for windows
<joepie91> energizer: decreasingly so
<joepie91> Microsoft has been sprinkling around "free" Windows 10 licenses left and right
<__monty__> jtojnar: Yeah, it's really only suited for actual printed man pages afaict.
<joepie91> there isn't some sort of inherent ideology of Microsoft to keep things proprietary at all costs; they do whatever makes sense to keep the business maximally profitable... and if that means playing along with the open-source game to a point, then that is what they do
<joepie91> and they are increasingly having to do so, which is why they've been switching over to service models, which aren't threatened by open-source as much
<gchristensen> bingo
<bqv> there's a bit of a corporate magic trick there too, with most people buying windows only because it's basically builtin to the computer at time of purchase, and because it's the expectation and they're not aware of any viable alternative. as soon as those veils fall, it'll stop being a sensible market plan
<joepie91> the logical conclusion of this is that, at some point, when some kind of open-source OS has gained enough momentum to start seriously threatening Windows (and Linux is getting there - see: Proton, WSL, etc.), that too will become open-source... if that is what they have to do to retain the customers and tie them into services instead
<energizer> sure, but still they make billions selling windows every year, i dont see the reason theyd give that up
<joepie91> energizer: the point is that they won't have the choice
<joepie91> there comes a point where increasingly many - especially corporate - customers start saying to their account reps "hey, uh, we have this free open-source thing, and it seems to be just as good, why would we pay for a proprietary system that we cannot see inside of?"
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<joepie91> and at that point Microsoft has the choice of either playing the game, or losing those customers entirely
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<joepie91> Microsoft isn't stupid; I'm sure they've seen this coming, and pivoting to a service model is an obvious solution
* bqv manually constructs a visual studio .sln file (whoever said i don't cater for windows-fans...)
<__monty__> Wouldn't that open sourcing come way too late? If a linux distro had that kind of momentum, there's already tons of people familiar with its innards. While the number of people that might be able to modify an oss windows is probably in the low thousands?
<__monty__> So wouldn't they have to open source it *very* preemptively? At a point when there's still heaps to be made from selling it?
<joepie91> __monty__: Microsoft already *is* gradually open-sourcing parts of what is functionally Windows, such as .NET core, other bits and pieces
<joepie91> but first the pieces that have a chance of turning the tide and keeping people in Microsoft-land
<pie_> theyre selling services now
<joepie91> and indeed, they started pivoting to services years ago
<pie_> its recurring revenue
<pie_> the new oracles
<bqv> i don't think windows licenses has been their primary revenue (or even close) for a long time now
<pie_> what brought it upon us is probably ubitquitous bandwidth
<joepie91> they have a lot of runway before things *really* fall over, due to all the old crap running on Windows, but all their actions in the past few years make total sense from the perspective of "they see the trouble coming and are preparing"
<jtojnar> weird, the closing tags are separate AST nodes in MDX
<jtojnar> looks closer to a token list with markdown ASTs interspersed
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<__monty__> Sounds a bit like lisp macros.
<__monty__> nn, peoples
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<joepie91> jtojnar: I suspect that's due to remark being used
<joepie91> extensible parsers are weeeeeird
<joepie91> night, __monty__!
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<ldlework> been playing some music today
<ldlework> having fun :)
<energizer> what's your instrument ldlework?
<ashkitten> microsoft would have to open source the entire nt kernel for me to even consider that they might've changed their tune
<ashkitten> oh, that discussion was an hour ago
<samueldr> thinking chaotic evil, they could make the source available, in a non-OSS, non-Free way
<samueldr> where it'd make more work for some projects e.g. wine into ensuring no contributors peeked
<ldlework> ashkitten: mandolin
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<ashkitten> samueldr: yeah that's a worry
<pie_> oh i totally expect the licenses to be you can see the source BUT
<pie_> not that im an analyst or anything
<pie_> joepie91: ?
<joepie91> ?
<pie_> what kind of license is MS gonna OSS under
<pie_> (presumably to maximize evilÖ
<ashkitten> i mean, they've so far put some stuff under bsd license right?
<ldlework> err energizer
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<bqv> a world where the NT kernel is on github sounds so bizarre
<bqv> it would be a hell of a power move
<samueldr> CONFIG_GENERIC_CPU_VULNERABILITIES=y # yes, I want generic cpu vulnerabilities in my kernel please
<joepie91> pie_: "whatever the market demands"
<bqv> :D
<joepie91> it's worth noting that there is already a way to access a lot of proprietary Microsoft code, under contract, including kernel code AFAIK
<ldlework> bqv: a world with open source .net and WSL2 is ... not one I anticipated
<joepie91> these Windows source code leaks generally originate from there
<samueldr> CONFIG_MEDIATEK_SOLUTION=y # where there is a solution, there is a problem
<joepie91> ldlework: I have to admit I hadn't expected them to seriously do something like WSL either, but in hindsight I can understand their motivations
<joepie91> .NET core was a fairly predictable move though
<bqv> i think at the time i was surprised by WSL and thought it was an april fools but it quickly became clear it was at least the first two of the triple e pattern
<joepie91> oh, 100%
<joepie91> what surprised me most was how many people received it with open arms as some gift to open-source
<joepie91> rather than the obvious power grab it was
<joepie91> "Microsoft is embracing Linux!" -- for a death hug, yeah...
<pie_> i cant search my backlog because reasons
<pie_> can someone tell me what the qr code alternative format michaelraskin recommended some days ago was?
<pie_> joepie91? sorry for all the pings today :P
<c74d> pie_: IIRC it was Data Matrix, but I'll check
<samueldr> joepie91: that "debian on macOS" during the keynote felt a bit samey to me. LOOK, WE LOVE LINUX TOO (hopefully you don't mind running it as a guest)
<joepie91> samueldr: I've only experienced that second-hand, through chatter about it in 23489023890 IRC channels
<joepie91> so no idea :P
<qyliss> WSL was part of the embrace, now we're seeing the extend with stuff like DirectX on Linux, which only works on Windows.
<joepie91> anyhow, it is bed time for me
<samueldr> joepie91: I meant samey as in EE
<pie_> c74d: sodns right
<samueldr> embracing it just enough to appease
<pie_> joepie91: argh how do i keep forgetting about basic stuff like that
<joepie91> samueldr: right, yeah, sounds about right
<joepie91> pie_: what, the log search?
<pie_> joepie91: yes
<joepie91> pie_: eh, I was halfway through a log search before I remember that :P
<samueldr> CONFIG_USB_TRANCEVIBRATOR=y # what even is that phone?
<samueldr> (btw it's totally innocuous, I think https://cateee.net/lkddb/web-lkddb/USB_TRANCEVIBRATOR.html )
<bqv> oh i used dmtx in a previous job
<bqv> or at least was adjacent to it
<bqv> didn't even think of it as an alternative to qr
<bqv> it's just "another barcode type"
<c74d> setPrio doesn't do anything to resolve filename conflicts when building environments, right?
<samueldr> (this is not a help channel!)
<samueldr> well, not a nix/nixpkgs/nixos and nix/nixpkgs/nixos accessories help channel at least ;)
<c74d> (I apologise!)
<samueldr> (and since I spoke, I don't know)
<samueldr> no worries, trying hard to make sure it doesn't become accidentally a channel where people think you end up being helped better
<pie_> maybe its time to split main into smaller subchannels ;P
<pie_> unrelated
<pie_> anyone know any good solutions for streaming camera from android to machine, that i can pipe places_
<pie_> kinda wish there was a UI like qjackctl for piping stuff around places
<samueldr> there are spooky closed source apps that give you a feed
<pie_> *piping arbitrary data
<samueldr> there is something on f-droid that purportedly works, but didn't work on a recent android version
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<Ashy> weird, my desktop machine's btrfs drive was read only again this morning
<Ashy> reboot and the uefi is not detecting the mp600 nvme though it is detecting the other samsung 960 nvme (win10 drive)
<Ashy> wonder if it's the mp600 having hardware issues
<Ashy> this happened last week too and i "fixed" it by doing a uefi update after which it just detected everything again and booted as normal
<Ashy> ryzen 3600 machine with dual rx580 gpus
<Ashy> wow, just "fixed" it this time by fully powering off for a few minutes and booting up again
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