gchristensen changed the topic of #nixos-chat to: NixOS but much less topical || https://logs.nix.samueldr.com/nixos-chat
<energizer> adisbladis: do you have mutable /home?
<samueldr> sometimes I forget I'm old, and that in the olden times some kids used IRC
<energizer> i'm grateful that my first irc messages aren't in public logs
<gchristensen> "Firmware updates to address security advisory . Firmware updates to address Intel security advisories and ." ... HRM
<infinisil> samueldr: Wait aren't you like 25-30?
<samueldr> like 30
<infinisil> "old"
<samueldr> heh
<energizer> btw is there an unlogged nix channel? i find that people often are more willing to have frank discussions in those
<gchristensen> energizer: no official nixos channel is intentionally unlogged
<gchristensen> bad things grow in dark places
<samueldr> I have been using IRC non-stop since before I had my first "own" computer in 2003
<energizer> is there an unofficial nixos channel?
<gchristensen> energizer: none that I know of :)
<gchristensen> samueldr: same
<samueldr> if there are that are unlogged, it's because they didn't ask for it, or that I forgor to do it
<samueldr> forgot*
<cransom> i uhh. i've irc'd since 1996. when we graduated from AOL to GNN (which, was still owned by AOL, but it was a more basic isp/internet experience). I have some logs from way back, but not that far back.
<energizer> gchristensen: sure. on the other hand, check out freenodes guidelines on public logs https://freenode.net/changuide
<energizer> (last paragraph)
<samueldr> and I was half-jokingly saying "old", though I'm an older soul computers-wise considering my first actual job programming was in 2005, with a couple years of self-taught experience playing around with stuff
<energizer> hard to discuss delicate issues in public channels because people reading the logs don't have context. same problem twitter has
<samueldr> while I know other people, as old as I am, that started way later
<infinisil> energizer: Guess you can always just create a temporary channel, inviting those people you wish to discuss with
<energizer> infinisil: unforunately channel switching in the middle of a conversation is pretty disruptive in practice
<samueldr> there is something to consider, too, is that many people will have their private logs
<samueldr> this means that they can cherry-pick context if there is no public log
<samueldr> and still cause harm
<energizer> yes but they don't
<infinisil> I guess you have to trust the participants
<energizer> #python is the largest channel on freenode and has no public logs
<samueldr> it's their perogative
<cransom> imo. once you type something out into the internet, you've lost control of it.
<infinisil> +1
<energizer> cransom: i dont buy into absolutist thinking like that
<samueldr> nixos has, from before my time, decided that the "unwritten quasi-oral tradition" that is log-less channel is detrimental to the collective knowledge
<samueldr> I have received private e-mails, multiple times, from people that are not even on IRC, giving thanks for the fact the channels are logged
<samueldr> since they found solutions to their issues
<energizer> not sure how that applies to chat channels etc
<infinisil> In contrast, I know of a channel that's very much technical in nature, where the owner/main contributor explicitly said that they wouldn't participate anymore if it was publicly logged
<cransom> energizer: whether or not you buy into it, the information is still out an stored acrossed many distributed nodes beyond your control.
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<energizer> cransom: sure. but people who hang out in a channel all day (and therefore have the logs) constitute a *community* of people who know and like each other, and have the context to understand what people were talking about around that time
<cransom> if the log is public and the conversation is entirely in that channel, where do you lose context? if someone cuts up a log to say something else, you can validate that.
<energizer> i dont know how it happens but, see twitter for proof
<energizer> moreover, it can be embarrassing to ask newbie questions if it's gonna be logged
<cransom> that sounds like a particularly toxic environment if newbies are shunned for asking questions.
<energizer> newbies don't know whether it is or not -- they're new!
<lovesegfault> cole-h: What's the distinction between system, local, and user on your zfs pool?
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<ashkitten> the only time i've felt weird about talking in a logged channel is the pdp-10 channel which is publicly displayed on a vax machine in the living computers museum
<ashkitten> and that's just because someone pinged me asking what musicians i was talking about in the photo of that machine on the museum's website, because they couldn't read the names of the artists in the pic
<ashkitten> that is probably the weirdest experience i've ever had on irc
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<clever> ashkitten: lol!
<clever> thats beyond just logged publicly, thats logged publicly in a museum!
<ashkitten> [indiana jones voice]
<ohhaimark[m]> Has anyone gotten hardware acceleration working with intel iris graphics on NixOS?
<ohhaimark[m]> `vainfo` isn't able to dynamically load some libraries, but I'm not sure what to do about it.
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* lovesegfault throws something at cole-h
<lovesegfault> ohhaimark[m]: It works for me
<ohhaimark[m]> Do you have dotfiles on github?
<ohhaimark[m]> Thanks
<lovesegfault> I don't think I do anything special other than that
<lovesegfault> ohhaimark[m]: Did it work?
<ohhaimark[m]> Nope.
<lovesegfault> ohhaimark[m]: :(
<lovesegfault> How do I check if I'm using Iris?
<ohhaimark[m]> Not sure about iris in general, but for video acceleration try vainfo.
<ohhaimark[m]> I probably know less then you do though.
<ohhaimark[m]> I want to get OBS using hardware acceleration so that my laptop fans won't be on full blast when I stream.
<lovesegfault> What does your vainfo show
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<ohhaimark[m]> I guess it may be because it's on 1.5
<lovesegfault> Maybe, idk
<lovesegfault> I'm on nixos-unstable-small
<lovesegfault> ohhaimark[m]: ls /run/opengl-driver
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<lovesegfault> you may be missing this
<ohhaimark[m]> So it's not there
<lovesegfault> ohhaimark[m]: What happens if you get rid of this https://github.com/badly-drawn-wizards/dotfiles/blob/master/nixos/configuration.nix#L123-L125
<ohhaimark[m]> lovesegfault: Checking that out now.
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<ohhaimark[m]> I have a few ideas now. I'll be back if I don't make any progress.
<pie_> 15:07 <clever> hyper_ch2: also, ive been writing this util to monitor zfs better: https://github.com/cleverca22/arcstats
<pie_> i think theres patches for htop or osmething that let you do that too
<lovesegfault> Alright, going to reinstall NixOS with ZFS and erase-on-boot; see y'all on the other side o/
<cole-h> lovesegfault: system is system stuff I want backed up. user is user stuff I want backed up. local is system stuff I don't want backed up
<cole-h> :^)
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<eyJhb> And we never saw lovesegfault again
<pie_> btw :O
<pie_> s/btw//
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<eyJhb> How I hate Dropbox. If it fails to install, it will just rm -rf dirs willy nilly
<pie_> 0_0
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<eyJhb> monsieurp: Not that it is okay, but at that point is it then how they are going to spend the day?
<eyJhb> adisbladis , etu: so physlock screwed up my LP, had to restart and apparantly I did not save anything, which is untrue
<eyJhb> None-the-less, no data
<eyJhb> Found it, good
<eyJhb> Don't have to start from scratch
<monsieurp> eyJhb: they = ?
<monsieurp> the protesters?
<monsieurp> on a sidenote, I <3 NY
<etu> eyJhb: Uhm?
<jD91mZM2> I just got Nix installed on a rootless machine that normally sucks with outdated packages everywhere. Be still, my beating heart
<jD91mZM2> Turns out the error I got with proot was documented like 1 sentence under where I was reading, but somehow I missed that all those months ago
<jD91mZM2> So now using proot and PROOT_NO_SECCOMP=1 I got nix and can install things
<eyJhb> etu: there is something funky going on
<pie_> jtojnar: schweet
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<lovesegfault> eyJhb: I survived!
<lovesegfault> It was _way_ harder than I expected
<eyJhb> lovesegfault: so ZFS snapshot + rollback on boot?
<lovesegfault> yeah
<pie_> samueldr: im still botheres by the fact that we have 30 different places to search for information without a single search engine, and the fact that i cant search all the channels at once :P
<gchristensen> phew ... forced my laptop to reboot in "the middle" of a firmware upgrade and it survived
<__monty__> Now why'd you go an do that?
<eyJhb> Living life!
<gchristensen> __monty__: I couldn't give it any more than 12 hours to do the job
<__monty__> Wow, that's a big honkin update.
<gchristensen> nah, it was just not working
<eyJhb> Seems weird
<eyJhb> Reminds me, I should backup my BIOS at some point
<eyJhb> Or maybe flash it as some point, bought all the things to do it
<eyJhb> lovesegfault: but only /, or also $HOME
<eyJhb> ?
<gchristensen> samueldr: is it just me or is inkscape palettes not really usable in nixos?
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<eyJhbV2> Give me my nick back you ghost!
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<sphalerite> eyJhbV2: use the ghost command?
<sphalerite> oh there we go ha
<eyJhbV2> sphalerite: :D
<eyJhbV2> WAIT
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<eyJhb> Finally
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<eyJhb> I hate channels that ban you, and then you cannot change nick
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<pie_> thunderbird manage to corrupt someting
<pie_> all the emails are there when searching but nothing shows up in the frontend
<pie_> only copy of this backup that i have....ffs
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<pie_> JavaScript error: chrome://messenger/content/mailTabs.js, line 419: NS_ERROR_ILLEGAL_VALUE: Component returned failure code: 0x80070057 (NS_ERROR_ILLEGAL_VALUE) [nsIMessenger.msgHdrFromURI]
<pie_> only output i get is
<pie_> so im hoping i can check the source but mozillas code search seems to be down
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<__monty__> Are you sure the backup isn't corrupted?
<pie_> it worked once
<pie_> which is why im so miffed
<pie_> should have made this crap immutable
<pie_> i can probably reimport te messages but ffs
<eyJhb> restoreTab?
<eyJhb> Isn't it just the state of tabs that sucks then?
<pie_> idk, but theres firstTab stuff
<pie_> which sounds reasonable
<pie_> "magic first tab"
<pie_> !#$%#@ i dont have time for debugging this :(
<pie_> yak shaves, yak shaves everywhere
<pie_> this is so stupid
<pie_> i bet its because i upgraded it like 30 versins and it did something stupidd
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<pie_> ok no there is something really stupid happening here because it happens to the other profiles on the device too
<pie_> idk how mozilla stuff cant ever get their session management right
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<pie_> theres some weird artefacts but this was a stupid rollercoaster
<pie_> per some random internet suggestion of using importexporttools to reimport the profile
<pie_> success
<eyJhb> Now you should do a Dropbox adventure pie_
<eyJhb> Because this makes no sense either
<pie_> yeah but i wouldnt trust dropbox to begin with because weird opaque distsys syncing
<pie_> or something
<eyJhb> Never had a problem with it in all the time I have been using it :\
<pie_> oh well thats good ten
<pie_> i never used it
<eyJhb> I have used it since 2010 I think
<__monty__> eyJhb: You've been having problems since switching to ZFS, right? Maybe they discontinued support for it for a reason? Have you tried the suggestion of going with an ext4 zvol?
<eyJhb> __monty__: it works fine, currently I am annoyed that I cannot make a home-manager module , that can start it from scratch (without me having to run it manually first)
<eyJhb> For SOME REASON, it will not work when NixOS starts it. Think it needs some more bins
<__monty__> Hmm, there's something about HM startUserServices being false by default.
<__monty__> IS that your problem?
<eyJhb> Nope, it will run and download the files, fill up /tmp, but will not put the files in my home
<eyJhb> Maybe it is the symlinks that screws with it?
<__monty__> How do you specify your home directory?
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<eyJhb> $HOME is set in the envvars in systemd
<eyJhb> Damn it __monty__ :(
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<eyJhb> Not the envvars
<eyJhb> Guess I just have to accept this
<eyJhb> HA! Works
<eyJhb> talyz: ping
<gchristensen> ohhaimark[m]: oh hi doggie, you'll probably want #nixos for that :)
<ohhaimark[m]> gchristensen: Cool, will ask there.
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<talyz> eyJhb: pong
<eyJhb> Found what I needed, was playing with activation scripts :D
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<bqv> Hey, hot qubits!
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<talyz> eyJhb: okay :)
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<drakonis> hm
<drakonis> another one
<drakonis> a nix derivative
<drakonis> yet another nix in lisp
<drakonis> but light on features and only strives to do packages
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<bqv> Oh neat
<lovesegfault> eyJhb: only /
<lovesegfault> I want to make $HOME erase on boot too
<lovesegfault> but it's _much_ harder
<cransom> make it a tmpfs?
<lovesegfault> cransom: not hard to implement, hard to do correctly (i.e. to keep the appropriate state selectively)
<lovesegfault> gchristensen: I had to eat the bread the devil tramped on to get iwd state to persist
<bqv> drakonis: I've never even heard of Janet, curious
<bqv> I feel like the simplicity they have so far is just due to it being small so far
<drakonis> appears to be part of the goal
<bqv> I saw, but achieving that is drastically easier with 10 basic packages vs 10k
<drakonis> of course
<bqv> I like the aim though
<bqv> Will keep an eye!
<drakonis> we'll see how that goes
<drakonis> it is definitely interesting
<drakonis> but the scope is a lot smaller
<eyJhb> lovesegfault: I just went all in. Tbh. I quite like it, but a lot of folders that need state
<eyJhb> talyz: I will ping you when done and nothing works
<eyJhb> Deleting 30 GB sure is fast
<lovesegfault> eyJhb: is your config public?
<lovesegfault> eyJhb: Can you show me the output of `zfs list` too?
<eyJhb> lovesegfault: https://pastebin.com/A8t5pVkr
<eyJhb> It the list
<eyJhb> And my configs are not public, not even on Git as-of-now :/
<lovesegfault> Ah, I mostly wanted to see which state dirs you had set
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<lovesegfault> and how you set them up for $home
<lovesegfault> Are you using tmpfiles.d to create the links?
<colemickens> eyJhb: so then is rpool/safe/home just what you persist, or is that the volume you check to make sure doesn't have anything important and wipe periodically (maybe eventually on boot)?
<colemickens> That's what I've been thinking about. I want to wipe /home but maybe only "manually" for a while, allowing me to spot check that I didn't miss anything.
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<colemickens> I guess I could snapshot and then wipe on boot, so I could always go back to the snapshot to recover data?
<talyz> eyJhb: please do ;)
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<eyJhb> WELL! Now you can see, that I actually forgot I had a safe/home, and just use persistent... But it is where I keep all the data that is persistent, so I use symbolic links for it to work (and actually use talyz module for this!)
<eyJhb> I can show the dirs as well I think lovesegfault , 2 sec
<talyz> lovesegfault: afaik eyJhb is using my home-manager module to manage persistent state https://github.com/talyz/nixos-config/blob/master/home-talyz-nixpkgs/modules/persistence.nix
<eyJhb> colemickens: Well, I have a backup with all my previous data in, so I have just started clean with everything and then use tmpfs for / and $HOME
<gchristensen> it might be worth noting that my /persist is explicitly different from backed up data
<gchristensen> I never back up /persist because it is mostly host-specific private keys
<lovesegfault> talyz: Oh, nice!
<eyJhb> gchristensen: If I loose my /persistent, then I am a sad panda
<eyJhb> I need to fix not using the home thing..
<lovesegfault> I might want to reshape my pool as local/{root,state} safe/{home,state}
<colemickens> eyJhb: I guess what I'm asking is, say I forgot to add a path to my persisted list, I got a one-time-available token and saved it in $HOME. I rebooted and it got wiped, in your scenario is there any chance of recovery?
<lovesegfault> That way I only back up safe/state
<eyJhb> colemickens: nope, gone forever if not saved in a propper dir
<eyJhb> But I just have my projects/ for that
<colemickens> yeah, I'm thinking of a random dotfile or something, probably droped straight into $HOME of course :P
<eyJhb> colemickens: gone. I did that once
<lovesegfault> talyz: How does that module work?
<eyJhb> "HEY IT WORKS!" *reboots* not so much
<eyJhb> lovesegfault: https://pastebin.com/7JSMB1ax
<ldlework> colemickens: eyJhb have you ever just deleted a file you really needed / have been working on for hours for literally no reason at all?
<ldlework> the regularity at which I do this is too damn high
<eyJhb> ldlework: I once did `rm -rf /*`
<ldlework> linux Garbage Bin when?
<eyJhb> That works wonders
<ldlework> eyJhb: I have done similar
<colemickens> don't know that I've done that lately, but I absolutely wiped out a good hour of work the other day just fumbling the wrong git command :)
<eyJhb> I think I had a sudo as well :p
<eyJhb> I JUST did a rm -rf dropbox
<ldlework> I've done things like rm -fr ~/.config/
<eyJhb> Which was not the right thing
<ldlework> when trying to delete ~/.config/something
<eyJhb> Same
<ldlework> the horror
<ldlework> the sheer horror
<eyJhb> My persistent should have snapshots
<lovesegfault> talyz: thanks!
<lovesegfault> eyJhb++ talyz++
<{^_^}> eyJhb's karma got increased to 5
<{^_^}> talyz's karma got increased to 2
<colemickens> I have done, "ls ~/some/dir/to/wipe" and then "rm -rf *" right afterword in the wrong PWD
<ldlework> done that one too
<ldlework> fuck!
<eyJhb> The only poor program NOT doing what I tell it to is chromium, everything else is lowercase. EVEN DROPBOX! :D
<colemickens> I think I did that one the other day and wiped out my wg priv keys that weren't in git :(
<talyz> lovesegfault: so you tell it where to store the persistent data by defining an attribute in home.persistence with that path, then just list files and directories
<eyJhb> At some point we should not be allowed to rm
<ldlework> should make an alias for rm to mv
<ldlework> mv things to /tmp
<ldlework> lol
<talyz> lovesegfault: directories will by default be created in the persistent directory if they don't already exist
<ldlework> that's actually not the worst idea i've ever had
<colemickens> I think theres a trash command or something? but `rm -i` would work too probably most times :P
<lovesegfault> talyz: really nice
<lovesegfault> I'm tempted :D
<ldlework> colemickens: but get immediately annoying and subsequently removed :P
<lovesegfault> You should upstream that module!
<colemickens> ldlework: exactly
<talyz> lovesegfault: thanks!
<eyJhb> talyz: my very hacky Dropbox module ! - https://pastebin.com/7xLqJFaX
<eyJhb> lovesegfault: Do it, join us!
<eyJhb> :D
<talyz> lovesegfault: rycee knows about it and said that it looked interesting, but a bit niche, essentially
<eyJhb> Was it when I outed you talyz ?
<talyz> lovesegfault: for consistency, I also have one for NixOS at https://github.com/talyz/nixos-config/blob/master/modules/persistence.nix
<talyz> eyJhb: nah, adisbladis brought it up in an issue before that :)
<eyJhb> Ahh
<eyJhb> Is there any good way to do the ln magig I am doing talyz ?
<eyJhb> Without recreating the links each time?
<sphalerite> ldlework: 5-minutely zfs snapshots ♥
<ldlework> I don't know anything about filesystems so I've been putting that stuff off
<lovesegfault> talyz: Usage example for the NixOS one?
<sphalerite> ldlework: it's very nice to have snapshots, allows you to go back on overwriting files too, not just deleting them, stuff like that
<ldlework> sphalerite: yeah it just seems like a big hill so it's in the background
<sphalerite> at one point I wrote a little project over the space of 12 hours or so without gitting anything, then reconstructed a git history from the snapshots
<sphalerite> (can still recommend gitting from the beginning, but it's better than nothing)
<sphalerite> ldlework: but it's a very good hill
<ldlework> That's why it's on the tapestry!
<talyz> eyJhb: well, you have to recreate the links every time, but you could just use the built-in home-manager support for it - home.file."blah".source
<eyJhb> talyz: It does not nice stuff with that
<eyJhb> Seeing as it does some copy, something I guess and loads my Dropbox into memory
<lovesegfault> talyz: why the bind mont?
<lovesegfault> *mount
<talyz> lovesegfault: just to make it as transparent as possible to programs using the directories
<talyz> lovesegfault: it probably doesn't make a big difference for most uses, though
<talyz> it was mostly a "hey, I can do this, so why not" thing, honestly
<lovesegfault> Got it :)
<lovesegfault> I needed a really ugly hack to get iwd to do the right thing
<talyz> ooh
<talyz> what happens without it?
<lovesegfault> talyz: explosions
<lovesegfault> iwd _REALLY_ doesn't like for it's state dir to be a symlink
<lovesegfault> it just doesn't work
<eyJhb> Damn, I think there is something off with my PIDs...
<joepie91> https://github.com/MicrosoftDocs/intellicode/issues/201 - guess I'm picking a fight with Microsoft today
<{^_^}> MicrosoftDocs/intellicode#201 (by joepie91, 2 minutes ago, open): Licensing issues
<samueldr> gchristensen: assuming stable, I had no trouble last time I did
<colemickens> lovesegfault, ew, also thank you :)
<talyz> lovesegfault: right, maybe a bind mount would solve it, then :)
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<lovesegfault> colemickens: :D
<lovesegfault> talyz: Why would that make a difference?
<cole-h> lovesegfault: How'd it go?
<sphalerite> joepie91++
<{^_^}> joepie91's karma got increased to 13
<colemickens> I feel so... something from the stalebot emails :s
<joepie91> colemickens: something? :P
<cole-h> sphalerite: How do you configure your 5-minutely snapshots, and do they ever expire/get pruned?
<sphalerite> cole-h: with znapzend, and yes
<sphalerite> plan = "15min=>5min,4h=>15min,4d=>1h,1w=>1d,1m=>1w";
<colemickens> joepie91: It's a mix of guilty, forgetful, and easily distracted based on the random things I've sent PR/issues for. They're sort of a reminder of "your abandoned nix projects".
<joepie91> colemickens: ah yeah, I totally get what you mean
<eyJhb> Stupp works yo!
<lovesegfault> cole-h: it was tough but I succeeded
<eyJhb> sphalerite: how do you set it? znapzend?
<cole-h> lovesegfault: What were your pain points?
<lovesegfault> colemickens: Did you get vaapi working with ff?
<lovesegfault> I keep getting [Child 23517: MediaPDecoder #2]: D/PlatformDecoderModule VA-API FFmpeg is disabled by platform
<lovesegfault> cole-h: I had forgotten how hard it is to bootstrap my keys
<colemickens> Only in Nightly.
<lovesegfault> colemickens: lame :P
<colemickens> for sure. I tried quite a bit to get it to work in stable and kept getting confused and stuck. :(
<lovesegfault> cole-h: I also deeply regret not having made my homedir stateless
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<eyJhb> Btw. lovesegfault I remember that my rpool/safe/home was for the two boots I ran a persistent home
<cole-h> sphalerite: Is it possible to configure znapzend to only use `zfs snapshot` and not `send`/`recv`? Does it do that automagically?
<eyJhb> But I shoul slity those two up
<lovesegfault> eyJhb: Yeah, I'm thinking of how to make it stateless now
<cole-h> lovesegfault: Well, since you only did it just now, you can probably start over and fix that... ;)
<lovesegfault> My plan is:
<talyz> lovesegfault: because bind mounts are much more transparent than symlinks - in file listings they look like any other directory or mounted device
<lovesegfault> 1. new dataset safe/home_new
<lovesegfault> 2. use talyz's stuff to set up persistence to /state/...
<lovesegfault> 3. move things to state manually
<eyJhb> lovesegfault: /state/root ** /state/home
<eyJhb> ?
<lovesegfault> 4. rename home_new to home
<lovesegfault> 5. snapshot empty home
<lovesegfault> 6. set up the new mount
<lovesegfault> 7. reboot and hope
<etu> talyz: woo, our madness is spreading :D
<lovesegfault> talyz: Stop tempting me!!!
<talyz> lovesegfault: :D
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<etu> lovesegfault: It's pretty great though
<lovesegfault> talyz: How about we extract those modules into a repo of it's own
<lovesegfault> then at least I can pin them with niv and import without copy-paste
<lovesegfault> :D
<etu> nix-community/stateless-helpers :p
<etu> (suggestion)
<talyz> lovesegfault: yeah, I probably should :p
<talyz> etu: I don't have access to nix-community (that I know, at least)
<lovesegfault> wait, I'm confused, do you bind-mount or do you symlink
<etu> talyz: I do:)
<lovesegfault> FWIW: bind mounting would most likely make iwd work without magic hacks
<etu> talyz: I'm not sure what policies there is. But if we come up with a good name and talk a bit to adisbladis for pointers on how to do this I think it will be fine. I'm willing to maintain it :)
<talyz> lovesegfault: I link files and directories that are put in environment.persistence.etc and bind mount directories in environment.persistence.root
<lovesegfault> etu: Let's do it! I will help :D
<lovesegfault> talyz: what do you do with /var/lib stuff?
<talyz> etu: ah, maybe adisbladis can give me access, then :)
<etu> talyz: No real need, If I make a repo I can invite you to that repo
<etu> So, more suggestions for names of the repo?
<lovesegfault> nix-stateless
<lovesegfault> nixos-stateless
<lovesegfault> Oh
<lovesegfault> It's a bit confusing that "root" and "etc" are handled differently
<etu> Yeah, one is a home-manager module and the other is a nixos-module
<etu> But we're at least three people running the same module copy-pasted
<cole-h> nix-community/stateless-nix ?
<etu> So it's getting to a point where it would be worth to share it
<talyz> lovesegfault: yeah, it's not super pretty - it's because we don't have the niceties of environment.etc outside /etc
<eyJhb> etu: We are like FOUR!
<eyJhb> etu, talyz, adisbladis, me :D And lovesegfault soon
<etu> cole-h: nix-community/stateless-root maybe? Counter offer
<energizer> funny calling it stateless when the point of the module is having persistent mutable data :)
<etu> yeah
<cole-h> etu: But it doesn't only apply to /, it also applies to /home, right?
<etu> true :/
<cole-h> (Granted /home is a descendant of /, but usually most people have stateless / and stateful /home)
<etu> And it doesn't rely either on tmpfs or zfs rollbacks :p
<energizer> nix-community/persistent
<cole-h> Ooh
<etu> nix-community/persistent-paths ? :)
* talyz uses btrfs with a new subvolume for root on each boot
<talyz> everyone has their own way :p
<cole-h> nix-community/impermanence
<Valodim> nix-community/ephemerality
<cole-h> I walk back my support of /persistent because this module isn't really about making this more persistent, but collecting all/most those persistent things in a single place
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<energizer> /persistent-tree
<etu> nix-community/persistent-helpers
<eyJhb> nix-community/know-your-state-helpers
<cole-h> I kinda like stateless- more than persistent-helpers because you're helping the system become more stateless, rather than more persistent, IMO.
<cole-h> How about:
<cole-h> nix-community/erase-your-darlings
<cole-h> :D
<eyJhb> cole-h: Thought about that
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<talyz> nix-community/save-the-state
<talyz> nix-community/tax
<energizer> nix-community/church
<lovesegfault> nix-community/decl-state
<eyJhb> Moving files between datasets is slooow
<eyJhb> THere must be a faster way
<pie_> nix-community/help-this-is-the-only-way-i-can-get-a-message-out-im
<gchristensen> opt-in-state
<Valodim> managed-state
<cole-h> Nice
<gchristensen> Valodim, cooking with fire
<Valodim> cooking-with-fire?
<gchristensen> no, managed-state is perfect
<pie_> xwok
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<pie_> *wok
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<energizer> what's managed about it?
<etu> I like managed-state
<cole-h> My favorites: /erase-your-darlings, /opt-in-state, /managed-state, and my own /impermanence :P
<gchristensen> it isn't stateful by default, you're managing your state
* energizer puts down my paintbrushes
<lovesegfault> I like impermanence!
<lovesegfault> it's a hip jive name
<lovesegfault> 😎
<cole-h> B)
<lovesegfault> let's do eeeet
<energizer> why is there an option specifically for "/etc"?
<energizer> and another for /root
<energizer> but not one for /var
<talyz> energizer: because it allows you to also manage files (it uses environment.etc)
<energizer> yeah also why does environment.etc exist..
<talyz> energizer: the "root" one is for /
<eyJhb> Done. Splitted them in two now
<eyJhb> Enough for today, someone is getting annoyed at me for sitting here
<lovesegfault> eyJhb: split who?
<energizer> why are there different options for each top-level directory
<etu> impermanence is a good one though
<lovesegfault> let's make a repo and collaborate!
<energizer> instead of just one option
<lovesegfault> ^
<etu> I'm gonna make a repo called impermanence and invite some people, I don't have time to poke around with it today
<lovesegfault> I think the reason is you can't bind-mount /etc
<lovesegfault> etu: <3
<cole-h> <3 etu
<{^_^}> etu's karma got increased to 18
<cole-h> Why can't you bind-mount /etc?
<lovesegfault> <3 etu
<{^_^}> etu's karma got increased to 19
<energizer> i dont want to bind-mount /etc, that's too much stuff
<energizer> the whole point is to specifically select directories
<etu> cole-h: too many random files :p
<cole-h> Oh, so it's more a "you don't want to", rather than a "you literally cannot even if you wanted to"
<cole-h> First star >:)
<drakonis> impermanence?
<cole-h> impermanence.
<lovesegfault> talyz: do you want to push your modules as-is to that repo?
<eyJhb> lovesegfault: into the two datasets
<lovesegfault> I guess any further discussion can happen there :D
<eyJhb> HOME and ROOT
<lovesegfault> eyJhb: Ah, nice
<talyz> lovesegfault: sure :)
<energizer> in other words, i want to be able to persist files/directories in /var /root /etc /home, but i dont see the reason for those to be in separate options
<lovesegfault> energizer: What's your proposal?
<lovesegfault> i.e. how to do that
<cole-h> Is there a historical reason we only have `environment.etc` and not `environment."/"`, `environment.var`, etc? Is it because there's typically no reason to need to drop files into those locations?
<talyz> energizer: everything not in /etc or /home/you would go in environment.persistence.root
<talyz> Oh, you mean generally
<energizer> lovesegfault: systemd.tmpfiles.rules would do it i think. but to be clear i dont understand why it's done the way it is, so i'd guess there is a reason that i just don't understand
<lovesegfault> energizer: FWIW those don't fully work, they get created kind of late
<lovesegfault> also some things (e.g. iwd) don't like symlinks
<etu> I added a readme
<etu> to get the repo started
<lovesegfault> for state directories bind >>>> link
<lovesegfault> but for single files link is best
<etu> We have to document how to use the modules in the readme
<etu> :)
<energizer> lovesegfault: ok so yeah why isn't it environment.<name>.
* energizer waits for a nixos historian
<lovesegfault> If I knew I'd tell you :P
<eyJhb> lovesegfault: add Dropbox to that list
<etu> gotta head off now though, but talyz, add your modules there when you have the time :)
<etu> talyz: and we can document and clean things up to make it nicer for everyone
<lovesegfault> TEAM WORK
<cole-h> I can help with documentation! Probably.
<cole-h> (Since I don't run it yet myself.)
<energizer> fwiw you can bind-mount a regular file, not just directories
<etu> energizer: wait, you can?
<etu> :O
<etu> I have to try this
<lovesegfault> energizer: you can?!
<lovesegfault> This changes everything
<energizer> touch x; mount -o bind x y
<talyz> energizer: bind mount all the things \o/
<energizer> otoh nix style seems to be symlinking, which has the advantage that looking at the file makes it obvious what it's pointing to. bind mounts are pretty "transparent" (read: opaque)
<talyz> etu: I will :)
<etu> energizer: I just tried
<etu> energizer: It worked
<etu> wow
<etu> TIL
<etu> ✨ energizer
<{^_^}> energizer's karma got increased to 16
<etu> energizer: That is *much* better than symlinks everywhere
<etu> bind-mounts everywhere instead
<energizer> what do you like better about it etu?
<etu> symlinks comes with weird side effects, like tools following symlinks etc
<pistache> energizer: I get "No such file or directory" when I try your command
<lovesegfault> So does everyone agree with the API of environment.persistence.{directories,files} = [...]
<energizer> following symlinks is what we want, no?
<etu> So I tell emacs to open /etc/nixos/... and then it's like "but ya know, /etc/nixos is a symlink, do you want to follow it?"
<lovesegfault> maybe `entities` instead of dirs and files
<lovesegfault> and that all gets bind mounter
<lovesegfault> *mounted
<pistache> ah right I need "touch y" as well
<etu> energizer: Sure, but bind mounts becomes more transparent
<Valodim> etu: is that an emacs-specific bias though?
<talyz> lovesegfault: the separation comes from the need for automatic creation - mkdir for directories and nothing for files
<etu> Valodim: No, bash also does that
<energizer> pistache: right, my example was incomplete
<etu> Valodim: but silent
<energizer> etu: is transparent an advantage?
<Valodim> hmm
<etu> energizer: maybe? That can be discussed :D
<energizer> etu: i set emacs to follow symlinks by default (which should be the default imo)
<etu> oh well, I'm heading off for tonight. We'll get something together for our new repo :)
<talyz> The output of `mount` would be glorious
<pistache> is there a way to "follow" bind mounts ?
<energizer> pistache: what does that mean?
<pistache> as in, to know the original path it is mounted from ?
<etu> pistache: No, since it's actually "not moved"
<etu> pistache: It's abstracted in the filesystem
<pistache> yes I wasn't clear in what I asked
<talyz> pistache: mount, the command
<pistache> but when bind-mount x to y, is there a way that y is x ?
<pistache> talyz: it doesn't show the original path, though
<talyz> But otherwise, not really
<etu> pistache: /etc/fstab will tell that :D
<etu> pistache: when configured declaratively that is
<pistache> yes, true
<pistache> when I use mount I get :
<pistache> tmpfs on /tmp/y type tmpfs (...)
<pistache> ah, findmnt does tell it, so it must be accessible somewhere
<pistache> yep, /proc/self/mountinfo shows it
<lovesegfault> talyz: you still need to create files for bind-mounting, right?
<energizer> lovesegfault: yes
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<lovesegfault> infinisil++
<{^_^}> infinisil's karma got increased to 308
<samueldr> git bisect, while good, sorely needs more, like a way to ignore commits found in a branch (e.g. bisect only staging-next exclusive changs)
<samueldr> or tag *why* a commit was skipped, I have skips for 3 different distinct reasons, it would help in the end to see the reasons and know where problem A stopped and problem B started
<cole-h> Maybe you could use tags for that? I also remember reading about a way to add notes to commits, but I don't remember how...
<samueldr> tags are quite dangerous in git in my experience
<samueldr> easy to accidentally push
<samueldr> and IIRC I've been told tags don't scale
<samueldr> though that wouldn't be much of an issue
<cole-h> man git-notes
<cole-h> ^ That's what I was thinking of
<samueldr> but that won't show in the review of a bisect, won't it?
<cole-h> I guess it would add more complexity, but then couldn't you just view the notes of the skipped commits to verify the reasons for doing so?
<samueldr> the real issue is it needs to be "skip because of problem A" so that *bisect* at the end shows it
<samueldr> I must have about 100 skipped commits already
<cole-h> Maybe you could output the bisect status thing to a file and check every skipped commit for a reason and then add that reason to said file?
<samueldr> probably, with enough work everything is possible
<cole-h> :P
<energizer> there was a bisect merges-only option PR but it stalled out iirc
<energizer> you can still emulate it with rev-list --merges --first-parent
<samueldr> I kind of want the inverse of that, merges are likely all good, so I want to ignore the "foreign" branch
<energizer> exactly
<samueldr> but what do I do with that list? can git bisect work only on a list of revision?
<samueldr> git's tools are poorly composable
<cole-h> How often do you guys garbage-collect old generations?
<samueldr> whenever necessary
<energizer> when i run out of space. i think grahamc does it automatically on a timer
<samueldr> meaning that they take too much space
<cole-h> Yeah, I ask because that just happened to me x)
<samueldr> though on my main machine the store is on another drive than my home
<samueldr> so it ends up that only nix builds are affected
<samueldr> I don't feel the squeeze for my other uses
<{^_^}> gitgitgadget/git#439 (by Denton-L, 31 weeks ago, open): Teach git bisect `--first-parent`
<samueldr> though thinking a bit more, what I need is "multi-bisect", where it would also bisect sub-problems to find when new problems are introduced and fixed
<LnL> cole-h: "pretty recent" 2020-02-04 :)
<cole-h> How big is your /boot?!
* cole-h regrets making it only 512M
<LnL> never had any problems with that
<cole-h> Well, I have built a few kernels in the past few days...
<LnL> but I use the release and just pull in specific stuff I want from unstable
<samueldr> my /boot is my /
<samueldr> oops, no, it isn't
<samueldr> 2.0GiB, though it was "overkill" only to allow experimentation as it's the ESP for UEFI
<samueldr> e.g. I'm using clever's thing that makes a bootable option that is basically the installer iso
<cole-h> That's cool.
<samueldr> though it's not *that* useful, but it did save me that one time I tried (foolishly, but I wanted to see it break) to force delete something sitll anchored to the GC and it collected all generations
<cole-h> lmao
<samueldr> it saved me from digging up a usb drive
<cole-h> Well, I have my USB drives literally a couple inches away, so I don't feel any of that pain :P
<samueldr> now, imagine if you had to *bend down* to plug that usb drive to the computer
<cole-h> x)
<samueldr> the horror
<pistache> samueldr: oh that's a neat modul, thanks for the link
<pistache> module*
<cole-h> sphalerite++ I've started using znapzend with your plan, thanks for the recommendation :) Just gotta keep an eye on it and see how disk usage piles up
<{^_^}> sphalerite's karma got increased to 93
<Valodim> talyz: pardon the uninformed question, but how do you actually use the configuration.nix files from your nixos-config?
<pistache> cole-h: if you're using ZFS 0.8.x, take care to not fill up your pool with snapshots
<cole-h> Why's that?
<pistache> as that can completely break your pool, and make it unrecoverable
<cole-h> :o??
<Valodim> I'm confused because https://github.com/talyz/nixos-config/blob/master/machines/zen/configuration.nix#L10 seems to say it lies in /etc/nixos/configuration.nix. but then it references files via ../../ 7 lines later
<pistache> yes. I completely broke a pool using "zfs snapshot -r rpool"
<pistache> cole-h: as in, you cannot destroy the snapshots because the pool is out of space
<cole-h> Huh
<pistache> which is silly..
<{^_^}> openzfs/zfs#9849 (by fake-name, 20 weeks ago, open): Cannot destroy snapshots on full drive: "internal error: Channel number out of range"
<pistache> and there is absolutely nothing you can do to recover it
<pistache> you can still read data, but changing anything on the pool is impossible (any write fails, changing properties fails, etc)
<pistache> deleting datasets fails, deleting snapshots fails, etc
<pistache> it can also happen when you fiddle with refreservation at the pool level
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<pistache> I've had it happen on a pool with less than 60% allocated space (lots of empty zvols)
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<pistache> it was really a... surprising moment (permanently wedging a pool just by running zfs snapshot)
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<cole-h> Uh
<pistache> I think the pool can be recovered by reverting to an earlier TXG, but did not try that as I wasn't sure, and just used new disks to recreate the pool
<cole-h> That's a little scary
<pistache> yes it is
<cole-h> How do you revert to an earlier TXG?
<joepie91> begrudgingly bought a portable airco unit
<joepie91> the manual was extremely "draw the rest of the fucking owl"
<pistache> cole-h: with the -T argument to zpool import
<pistache> but if it's your root pool, that implies rebooting
<pistache> and since at that point I wasn't even sure that I would be able to import the pool again, I just split my mirror, and moved everything to a new pool made from the detached device
<pistache> (it implies rebooting because the pool can not even be exported at that point)
<samueldr> joepie91: I'm curious what's to draw on a portable aircon, though I don't know how, and if, european designs differ
<joepie91> samueldr: too high
<talyz> Valodim: On most machines I simply symlink the right configuration.nix to /etc/nixos/configuration.nix
<joepie91> 1 kW for this one
<samueldr> joepie91: sorry, not "the power draw", but "what's unexplained", e.g. drawin the owl :)
<joepie91> this is a stopgap measure; I want to look into a proper split unit but right now I already have too much on my mind to deal with that also
<joepie91> oh
<joepie91> :p
<Valodim> talyz: does that just work for the "../../" paths in the configuration.nix-es?
<joepie91> samueldr: so the manual basically went "please make sure that all the parts are present before you install it, there are three ways to take out the hot air <end>"
<joepie91> it didn't even list the three ways!
<joepie91> it just came with a bunch of unlabelled parts, no instructions on how to attach them
<samueldr> oof
<joepie91> a separate difficult-to-understand manual for the window mounting kit
<talyz> Valodim: yes, the paths are relative from the location of the real file
<joepie91> I still don't know what half the parts are for :P
<Valodim> talyz: cool! thanks for the info. that explains a lot of things :)
<joepie91> but the hose was round, there was what seemed like a square attachment bracket on the backside at one of the exhaust points
<joepie91> so I figured that I should put the square-to-round converter thingem there
<talyz> Valodim: no problem! :)
<joepie91> and the hose clicked into the thingem so I GUESS that it's now correctly set up
<joepie91> and I'm currently test-running it
<talyz> Valodim: on evals I instead put the configuration file path in nix.nixPath, so I wouldn't have to symlink it :)
<joepie91> the window mounting kit is also super disapppointing
<samueldr> 1kW isn't that bad though, depending on the BTU, the one I have (second hand, a bit older) is 1.5kW
<samueldr> (but yes, way worse than a "proper" one)
<joepie91> it's basically a hood of the cheapo-polyester-tent material
<joepie91> which doesn't insulate at all... so that's gonna be a project
<joepie91> samueldr: "9000" BTU
<joepie91> by an unspecified standard of measurement
<joepie91> so I assume they are like camera manufacturer pixels
<joepie91> or chinese mAh
<samueldr> "12000" here
<samueldr> likely the same standard, or similarly cheatable
<joepie91> also the cheapskates didn't even include batteries for the remote <.<
<samueldr> rude!
<samueldr> CR2030?
<joepie91> nah, AAA at least
<samueldr> at least!
<joepie91> so at least it's something people probably have
<samueldr> tip, for anyone with an IR blaster, if the brand can't be found, check for the actual manufacturer on a regulatory body's database, e.g. UL or Intertek for North America
<joepie91> on a 450 EUR device
<joepie91> so yeah, not too impressed with the packaging :D
<joepie91> but it does seem to work
<joepie91> but two AAAs cost like what, a few cents to include?
<joepie91> I have also already lost the remote
<samueldr> a classic
<joepie91> found it again :P
<lovesegfault> gchristensen: When should I add elevator=none to kernelParams?
<gchristensen> don't do that, I just haven't deleted it from my post yet
<lovesegfault> Ah
<lovesegfault> What was it supposed to achieve?
<cole-h> It was supposed to set the disk scheduler to none, since ZFS manages scheduling itself, I guess
<cole-h> lovesegfault: ttps://gist.github.com/mx00s/ea2462a3fe6fdaa65692fe7ee824de3e#gistcomment-3315870
<lovesegfault> I see mine has defaulted to none
<cole-h> oops
<lovesegfault> Ah, interesting
<infinisil> So I thought I was being smart by setting chmod o-r on a directory, which would allow access only to those people who know what items are in it
<infinisil> Because with o-r, you can't list directories anymore
<ldlework> What was the gotcha?
<infinisil> Turns out that doesn't quite work, as people can just brute force all possible strings: Accessing a non-existant directory gives "No such file or directory", while everything else indicates an existing directory
<ldlework> Just make all your filenames 1024 character random strings
<energizer> there was a proposal to do that for /nix/store
<ldlework> Hmm I was joking because doesn't that then hide the information from yourself
<ldlework> unless you can remember arbitrary semantics for random 1024 strings
<ldlework> ^_^'
<infinisil> ldlework: In my case, I have permissions set up so only those users can even access those files
<energizer> to do the o-r, not the random strings
<infinisil> energizer: Hmm it would work there because you can't brute-force the strings
<infinisil> Hehe, I could add some hashes to my directory layout
<energizer> infinisil: right. there's still concern the paths would appear in other places, like pstree
<infinisil> How about having a file system that only gives temporary access to files
<infinisil> It will expose a file under some hashed path, which you need to know to access it
<infinisil> After the first process accesses it, the file system essentially deletes it from view
<ldlework> energizer: oh lol
<energizer> infinisil: that would be neat
<joepie91> infinisil: that's starting to sound a lot like a capability-based system :P
<infinisil> joepie91: Kinda does indeed! I don't know capability systems too well, but I heard good things about them
<abathur> hmm
<infinisil> For context: I'm working on a secret module for nixus, and the secrets are structured like /var/lib/nixus-secrets/active/per-user/<username>/<secretname>
<abathur> I guess you could implement that with FIFOs for read-only stuff
<infinisil> I set o-r on `per-user`, such that other users can't know whether you even have secrets or not
<infinisil> But since linux tells you whether the directory exists or not even with o-r, that's kind of pointless, since you can just go through all users of the system
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<infinisil> I'm considering adding a hash to make that impossible
<qyliss> This sort of thing is something that systemd could probably do well
<qyliss> On startup, open all the secret files, then bind mount over them or something, so nothing else can get them from disk.
<qyliss> Then hand out the file descriptors to each secret file to subprocesses as required
<infinisil> That might work indeed
<qyliss> Of course, anything with root could undo the bind mount
<qyliss> But you can't really protect against root
<energizer> yup
<infinisil> Ideally only the administrator can run commands as root, and only manually
<qyliss> Yeah
<infinisil> (I wish no NixOS services would require root..)
<abathur> can a FUSE serve different files to different processes out of the same namespace?
<abathur> maybe, a fuse that pretends every path is valid
<abathur> as a denial of knowledge?
<samueldr> fuse can differentiate processes I think, at least I abused knowing the PID to get the UID to show a different view for a test
<infinisil> Neat
<samueldr> I'm not sure it's supported, but it worked well enough to show the xdg application folder of that user merged with the system ones
<infinisil> Although, pid's can change and be reused
<samueldr> it's not during mount time, it's during runtime, though I guess TOCTU
<samueldr> oops, TOCTOU*
<infinisil> toctou?
<samueldr> though I guess it's not strictly TOCTOU, but could look like it
* samueldr thinks
<samueldr> nah, it shouldn't be an issue, the PID is currently opening the file, it's not like the PID will vanish during that operation, won't it?
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* infinisil has no ieda
<infinisil> idea
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<samueldr> I thing git bisect has a pretty poor UX
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<samueldr> it's been dozens of commits that it's been telling me "40 commits left"
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<samueldr> I mark one good, 39 left...
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<samueldr> I mark another good, 40 left...
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<samueldr> I don't event know what it the maximum amount of revisions actually left to try, since it apparently doesn't change on skip, and can go back and forth on an actual action :(
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<infinisil> I guess bisecting with a non-linear history isn't trivial
<danderson> I thought git bisect handled that
<danderson> it might take a thousand more steps, but I thought it got the correct answer eventually
<samueldr> I would have hoped that a maximum amount of revisions to test is trivial to compute
<samueldr> since... you know... you can list all revisions in the search space
<energizer> samueldr: do you have a script to check good/bad or are you doing it manually?
<samueldr> so I don't know what "commits left" is... steps, I know, but *revisions left* I don't
<danderson> sure, but at which point does it stop being a bisect and start being a linear scan of all possible changes
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<joepie91> isn't it supposed to do a binary search
<samueldr> energizer: I can't script it as different kind of failures happen that are unrelated, and no trivial way to disciminate
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<samueldr> danderson: I think that's it, revisions left should have been the max, and steps binary in that search space
<samueldr> but I guess I'm wrong
<danderson> with a very branching history, how much work you eliminate with each test can get complicated, but it should still require scanning less than "everything"
<samueldr> exactly, but I don't know what you're getting at
<samueldr> what I'm saying is that there is a number which should be the total number of revisions to test, and that number changes in unpredictable ways
<samueldr> so it must not be that, but if it isn't it's not clear what it is
<danderson> oh, that is confusing.
<samueldr> for now two dozens revisions, I've been told I'm left with 40 revisions to test, approximately 5 steps
<samueldr> the 5 steps I know I broke by skipping
<samueldr> but the first number I'm entirely confused by
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<samueldr> :/ just listed commits using master..staging-next, to get the list of commits not in master, dropped them in a text file and bisected by hand, and I'm already at a 3 commits range in 10 minutes
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