<Rotaerk>
hmm, https://github.com/NixOS/cabal2nix indicates that cabal2nix cabal://name-version will automatically download from hackage
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<Rotaerk>
but when I try it, it just complains that ~/.cabal/packages/hackage.haskell.org/00-index.tar does not exist
<Rotaerk>
oh, maybe I need to explicitly update cabal first...
<Rotaerk>
yea nm that was it...
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<taktoa>
I keep reading "plasmashell" as "plasm as hell"
<Rotaerk>
heh
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<jazzencat>
That's not too far off the mark, taktoa. ;)
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<jazzencat>
My /etc/localtime points to the correct timezone file, but the clock displays the time 8hours ahead of the actual time where I am.
<taktoa>
make sure ntpd (or chrony) is running?
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<jazzencat>
Okay, started the ntpd.
<jazzencat>
I guess I need to restart?
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<jazzencat>
Okay, I have tried setting my date correctly with date -s "yyyy-MM-dd HH:MM TZ" but when I check in console it always shows the TZ as UTC. I have made sure /etc/localtime is pointing at the correct TZ file. And after a reboot the date and time are always back to UTC. I have run hwclock --systohc as well, but that doesn't help either.
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<jazzencat>
I have searched NixOS wiki, Arch wiki and the rest of the internet, but nothing I find does the trick.
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<angerman>
wasn't that in /etc/nixos/ or so? But it's a long time since I played with nixos :-/
<osa1>
I'm not on nixos, this is a linux system with nix installation
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<LnL>
osa1: /etc/nix/nix.conf, but it might not exist yet
<osa1>
LnL: I was trying to avoid making changes to / , is there an alternative location? (my /nix is a `mount --bind`)
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<LnL>
you can override it
<osa1>
how?
<LnL>
export NIX_CONF_DIR=/nix/etc/nix
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<osa1>
OK so this documentation is actually wrong: "A number of persistent settings of Nix are stored in the file sysconfdir/nix/nix.conf." it should be $NIX_CONF_DIR/nix.conf
<NixOS_GitHub>
[nixpkgs] vbgl pushed 1 new commit to master: https://git.io/v1H2G
<NixOS_GitHub>
nixpkgs/master 1b6e2b9 Paul Liu: Fix netpbm installation for OS X (#21194)...
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<manveru>
when i have something like `yay = { hi = "foo"; there = "bar"; }` how can i set these in a let scope like `let; with yay; inherit hi there;`
<manveru>
atm i have `hi = yay.hi; there = yay.there;` but there must be a better way, right?
<LnL>
manveru: inherit (yay) hi there;
<manveru>
oh cool :D
<manveru>
thx
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<NixOS_GitHub>
[nix] LnL7 opened pull request #1154: manual: add NIX_CONF_DIR to conf-file section (master...manual-conf-file) https://git.io/v1Hwt
<jazzencat>
So, here is the set of commands that I have run to try to get my clock fixed: date -s '2016-12-16 02:02-08:00' then tzselect and set the timezone to PST, then I ran hwclock --systohc and checked. The timezone linked to by /etc/localtime is correct, but it stubbornly keeps the timezone with UTC. And with a restart simply undoes everything again. I added the TZ='America/Vancouver'; export TZ to my .profile
<jazzencat>
files as well and still nothing helps
<goibhniu>
jazzencat do you not want to use ntp?
<kmicu>
jazzencat: what’s the output of ‘nixos-option time.timeZone’ ?
<goibhniu>
jazzencat: you can see the configuration options in `man configuration.nix` e.g. services.ntp.*
<kmicu>
ntp is enabled by default so I’m assuming time.timeZone is not set for America/Vancouver.
<jazzencat>
The Timezone line in configuration.nix is uncommented.
<kmicu>
It must be ‘America/Vancouver’ and you did not get an error, b/c we ‘love’ stringly typed programming :)
<NixOS_GitHub>
[nixpkgs] fpletz pushed 1 new commit to release-16.09: https://git.io/v1Hr3
<NixOS_GitHub>
nixpkgs/release-16.09 d039ff2 Sebastian Hagen: ImageMagick: Add additional mirror....
<jazzencat>
/etc/localtime links to /etc/zoneinfo/Pacific/Vancouver
<jazzencat>
So change Pacific/Vancouver to America/Vancouver in configuration.nix and rebuild?
<kmicu>
Yep, that ‘/etc/zoneinfo/Pacific/Vancouver’ is probably created by your configuration.nix so if you set time.timeZone = "Stringy/Typed" then it probably set /etc/zoneinfo/Stringly/Typed link ( ͡~ ͜ʖ ͡°)
<jazzencat>
Oh, would you look at that. :D
<jazzencat>
Now it shows the correct time :D
<jazzencat>
\0/~
<jazzencat>
I knew I was missing something simple. Never mind date -s and hwclock --systohc, just update configuration.nix :D
<jazzencat>
Yeah, I'm starting to like NixOS more and more despite the learning curve. Having less and less desire to bother with Debian or any other FHS compliant distro.
<NixOS_GitHub>
[nixpkgs] fpletz pushed 1 new commit to master: https://git.io/v1Hov
<NixOS_GitHub>
nixpkgs/master f3108c5 Luis Pedro Coelho: pythonPackages.natbib: fix for Python 3.5 (#21114)...
<jazzencat>
The GNOME install broke, I go to configuration.nix delete the services.xserver.gnome3 line and rebuild. Problem solved.
<rly>
jazzencat: if I can offer a suggestion, you can also run multiple versions of nixpkgs at the same time for different packages.
<LnL>
my download-from-binary-cache gets stuck in a read :(
<rly>
LnL: enterprise network or flaky one?
<rly>
jazzencat: for some packages I run bleeding edge, but for the base system I use 16.09.
<jazzencat>
Oh, nice. So one version for my DEs one for my Media programs etc, for example?
<rly>
jazzencat: exactly.
<LnL>
rly: no, and curl works fine
<rly>
LnL: so, you are not on an enterprise network?
<LnL>
rly: I'm at home
<jazzencat>
So, I would run nix-env -iA nixos-unstable vlc to make nixos take the vlc package from the unstable channel?
<rly>
LnL: some home routers don't work well with that particular program.
<LnL>
rly: my other machine works fine
<LnL>
never had any issues like that before
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<rly>
LnL: OK, in that case, you could start using perldb? ;)
<LnL>
it should be building locally because it's not available
<jazzencat>
Oh, and the trouble I was having getting my wifi to work with my home router seems to be just limited to my connman not liking my home router. It works elswewhere.
<rly>
jazzencat: I have broken wifi too, because the Dell people decided to put in El Cheapo hardware in a high-end model >.>.
<rly>
jazzencat: I am thinking of just getting something external.
<LnL>
rly: it's a vm if that matters
<jazzencat>
Well, since I can plug in directly to the modem here at home, it isn't such a big deal.
<rly>
LnL: it would be interesting to see if you can make it self-contained.
<LnL>
rly: --fallback gets past it
<rly>
LnL: i.e. the output for a bug report would then be a full Nix file which can be run without any interaction.
<jazzencat>
When I go out to do my work at the local coffeeshop or library I can connect to the wifi there with no problems, so it's only an interesting puzzle. I'll probably use it to practice troubleshooting network connections at some point.
<LnL>
but yes git's commands and flags are pretty inconsistent
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<nekroze>
After removing nixos containers I am left with a directory under it in /var/lib/containers/mycontainer/var/empty and even as root I don't have permissions to remove it. How can I get rid of this? its causing problems
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<rly>
nekroze: please show exact error message.
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<rly>
testp[5770]: segfault at 0 ip 00000000004010d9 sp 00007fffffffce90 error 4 in testp[400000+f8000]
<rly>
Does anyone know what testp is?
<kmicu>
jazzencat: if you need something that is already in Nixpkgs repo, but still not available in channels then you can create an ad–hoc shell e.g. ‘nix-shell -p enlightenment.terminology -I nixpkgs=https://github.com/NixOS/nixpkgs/archive/master.tar.gz --command 'terminology'’ gives you the latest available ‘terminology’. No git required.
<nekroze>
rly: rm: cannot remove '/var/lib/containers/fronten/var/empty': Operation not permitted
<rly>
kmicu: is that cached?
<rly>
kmicu: (because then I could get rid of my git checkout)
<rly>
nekroze: mount | grep fronten
<kmicu>
nekroze: what are permissions on that folder?
<nekroze>
kmicu: no output
<nekroze>
I think it might have had a mount there when it was a container
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<rly>
nekroze: perhaps it used extended attributes.
<rly>
nekroze: lsattr empty
<nekroze>
kmicu: dr-xr-xr-x 2 root root
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<rly>
Root is not all powerful anymore on Linux, which is a bit weird.
<nekroze>
Yeah I am getting nothing from any methods I can find
<nekroze>
good old reboot included
<rly>
nekroze: did you try the extended attributes suggestion (lsatttr /var/lib/containers/fronten/var/empty)?
<nekroze>
yeah did nothing
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<rly>
nekroze: nothing? As in "no output"?
<nekroze>
yes
<nekroze>
well a blank line
<rly>
I think there should be a command saying rmrly ;)
<rly>
nekroze: and I am just part of the plebs? ;)
<nekroze>
rly: not at all good fellow
<nekroze>
ale for all
<goibhniu>
hehe ... glad it worked :D
<nekroze>
me too. I was at a loss, the googs helped naught
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<NixOS_GitHub>
[nixpkgs] domenkozar pushed 1 new commit to master: https://git.io/v1Hiw
<NixOS_GitHub>
nixpkgs/master 8b9ced0 Domen Kožar: rocksdb: build also static lib for rocksdb-haskell
<sphalerite>
If I want to install a package with some modifications (modifications that can't be done just by passing different parameters to the expression), how should I go about it? Edit it in my local copy of nixpkgs then install from there?
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<joachifm>
sphalerite: that's one way, packageOverrides is another
<sphalerite>
oh right using ~/.nixpkgs/config.nix?
<joachifm>
sphalerite: or nixpkgs.config.packageOverrides, if you're on NixOS
<sphalerite>
oops, forgot to mention that this is for my user environment, not systemPackages
<joachifm>
if it's supposed to be user local, ~/.nixpkgs might be most apropos
<viric>
libreoffice works really slow and bad for me. But I guess it's just a matter of libreoffice
<NixOS_GitHub>
[nixpkgs] joachifm pushed 5 new commits to master: https://git.io/v1HMm
<NixOS_GitHub>
nixpkgs/master 994b243 Michael Alan Dorman: elpa-packages: 2016-12-15
<NixOS_GitHub>
nixpkgs/master c5e64ba Michael Alan Dorman: melpa-packages: 2016-12-15...
<NixOS_GitHub>
nixpkgs/master 01d5fda Michael Alan Dorman: melpa-stable-packages: 2016-12-15...
<viric>
(making 25 slides, with pictures in them)
<rardiol>
did someone put gcc7 in nixpkgs yet?
<viric>
it's super slow, dragging objects paints quite bad on screen, black text sometimes becomes white (therefore invisible), the text background colours don't appear in presentation mode, ...
<sphalerite>
viric: apparently increasing the amount of RAM libreoffice can use, which is somewhere in the settings, can help
<aszlig>
domenkozar: hm, i wonder why it's trying this? testdir.tmpdir.ensure_dir('.cache').chmod(0)
<viric>
sphalerite: really?
<aszlig>
domenkozar: are they expecting tests to be run as root?
<aszlig>
aka "real root"
<domenkozar>
I'm pretty sure not
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<viric>
sphalerite: I will check
<domenkozar>
maybe 0 gets fetched from some get_uid() call?
<domenkozar>
or is that the actualy line in code
<aszlig>
lemme check that
<domenkozar>
I'd guess they detect current user as 0
<gchristensen>
niksnut: ping, I think there are more problems from that change.
<domenkozar>
and then they create cache directory to be sure
<sphalerite>
viric: but yes, those problems also sound very much like libreoffice to me :D
<gchristensen>
oh are you ( domenkozar, aszlig ) discussing hydra?
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<domenkozar>
gchristensen: yes
<gchristensen>
pytest?
<domenkozar>
yes
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<sphalerite>
Hm, I have a mysterious partition lying around on the desktop I intend to install nixos on... Refuses to mount. Anyone know any tricks to help identify that sort of thing?
<gchristensen>
great :) I thought I broke everything when I pushed that... I can't imagine how I caused it though.
<domenkozar>
gchristensen: pushed what?
<gchristensen>
pushed changes to 16.09 causing everything to break
<gchristensen>
just the roundup changes.
<domenkozar>
ah, it's hydra namespacing
<gchristensen>
yeah
<gchristensen>
my preference would be for that to be rolled back until we can at least release with it
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<domenkozar>
it's hard to rollback nix schema changes
<domenkozar>
but I guess namespacing could be reverted if needed
<gchristensen>
oh there was a schema change with that?
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<aszlig>
hm, we could build the older releases on different machines
<aszlig>
... with older nix
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<aszlig>
for example by setting requiredSystemFeatures = [ "legacy-nix" ] on all jobs
<gchristensen>
older releases? I'm just thinking 16.09
<aszlig>
err, with older releases i mean "older than master"
<domenkozar>
so right now every software that does
<domenkozar>
uid = getuid()
<domenkozar>
something(uid)
<domenkozar>
fails to build
<LnL>
gchristensen: I tried to look at the nixos tests but download-from-binary-cache gets stuck
<NixOS_GitHub>
[nixpkgs] joachifm pushed 1 new commit to master: https://git.io/v1HDn
<NixOS_GitHub>
nixpkgs/master f0e77cd Joachim Fasting: grsecurity: 4.8.14-201612110933 -> 4.8.15-201612151923
<aszlig>
domenkozar: we could also use seccomp to forge the uid as well :-D
<gchristensen>
LnL: looks like people smarter than me are on it :)
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<LnL>
allright
<aszlig>
domenkozar: i tried to patch *stat() with seccomp, but that's very difficult to do
<domenkozar>
aszlig: I have no idea what are the implications of that, but for sure we don't want to patch all code doing POSIX
<aszlig>
domenkozar: well, that code assumes that if you're running as uid 0 you can do everything
<domenkozar>
it's assuming your user has permissions to folders owned by your user
<aszlig>
domenkozar: that works
<aszlig>
what's not working is if you make assumptions about uid 0 being something special
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<sphalerite>
Why does allowUnfree = false not prevent firmware-linux-nonfree from being installed?
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<joachifm>
sphalerite: because free != libre
<joachifm>
sphalerite: in this context ...
<domenkozar>
yeah stallman would be angry
<sphalerite>
wait so what is unfree?
<joachifm>
it's come up quite a few times, it is a bit vague
<jazzencat>
*sigh* I forgot the title of a game I was interested in and now I can't find it anymore.
<jazzencat>
I would recognize it if I saw it...
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<NixOS_GitHub>
[nixpkgs] aszlig pushed 1 new commit to master: https://git.io/v1HyH
<NixOS_GitHub>
nixpkgs/master 38ea64e aszlig: qemu_test: Make chown() calls to the store a no-op...
<sphalerite>
jazzencat: describe it? Who knows, maybe someone will know :p
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<peti>
Yo Haskell users, please note that hydra.cryp.to is about to go offline. If you're still using that server as a binary cache for Nix, then you're about to see some error messaes. :-)
<jazzencat>
The game world and it's history is procedurally generated when you start a game, art-style uses cel-shaded/pixel aesthetic. If you die you have to complete a mission to resurrect otherwise your character can permanently die. Multiplayer support and you can host your own instance of the game world if you wish to.
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<jazzencat>
The game world will generate a history depending on what happens you might have elves and dwarves living side-by-side or you could have a world with one of the races missing.
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<jazzencat>
And damned if I can remember the name of it. I don't think it was released. Or it wasn't about a year ago...
<aszlig>
domenkozar: oh, that pytest thing chmods to 0000 and tries to see whether failure is happening to create subsequent files
<aszlig>
domenkozar: and if that fails, the test succeeds
<gchristensen>
heh... how did we break that test?
<aszlig>
but i'm not sure how this could not be the case within the builder sandbox
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<aszlig>
ah, wait... we're running as "root" X-D
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<domenkozar>
exactly
<aszlig>
so the permissions are effective, but the inner uid 0 is still able to access it because it is the owner of the outside uid
<aszlig>
so that's perfectly normal, but the tests assume they're not being run as root
<domenkozar>
peti: are you doing haskell updates now on hydra.nixos.org?
<aszlig>
otoh... this is kind of a privilege escalation...
<gchristensen>
aszlig: is there a reason we chose to run them as 0?
<domenkozar>
peti: also, did you see that ghc 8.0.2 fixes ABI determinism?
<domenkozar>
and split-objs on darwin
<aszlig>
as a normal user even if you're the owner you can't just say for example chdir into a dir with perms 0000, but if you're using a user namespace you can
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<domenkozar>
aszlig: maybe we can also fix it upstream
<gchristensen>
:/
<domenkozar>
we have core pytest contributor here
<aszlig>
domenkozar: good idea, who's gonna post it to the LKML? ;-)
<domenkozar>
oh I meant pytest as upstream, not kernel.
<domenkozar>
but feel free :-)
<aszlig>
domenkozar: i guess this is more like a kernel issue, but i'm not quite sure in which situations this could impact fs security
<rly>
I have a load of 40 on my laptop, because a nixos-rebuild is building a lot. How can I limit this to some sane value?
<rly>
I.e., it's probably memory related.
<rly>
I would like it to cap at 8GB for building stuff.
<gchristensen>
aszlig: also this comment: "So all in all, I think this is not worth it" :P
<clever>
rly: did you use -j on nixos-rebuild?
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<osa1>
where can I see nixpkgs.makeWrapper documentation?
<rly>
clever: I think I did set it to use all cores, but that shouldn't result in a completely unresponsive laptop, but then again, it might also have been another program or it's that there is/was an I/O system problem.
<clever>
rly: can you pastebin the contents of /etc/nix/nix.conf?
<rly>
clever: I think I am also rebuilding chrome, while I just want to piggy back on Hydra build outputs.
<rly>
clever: how should NIX_PATH look like when it's just pointing at a channel?
<rly>
clever: I am currently pointing at a git checkout of 16.09.
<clever>
rly: nixpkgs=/path/tp/nixpkgs
<rly>
clever: that results in massive rebuildings.
<clever>
rly: which branch of which git repo are you using?
<rly>
clever: origin/release-16.09
<rly>
clever: of the nixpkgs repo.
<clever>
rly: thats not the 16.09 channel
<gchristensen>
rly: what is the io wait when your load is that high?
<rly>
gchristensen: I have noticed something weird on this hardware, though. Sometimes I need to run emacs 4 times before it runs.
<clever>
rly: line 5 says it can do up to 5 derivations at once, and line 16 says each of those can use 8 cores on make
<rly>
gchristensen: vim doesn't have that problem.
<clever>
rly: so it will run up to 40 things at once
<clever>
correction, 8, and 8, so 64 things
<rly>
clever: I don't particularly care on which it spends X resources, so it seems weird to specify it like that.
<rly>
clever: I would expect the multiplication of those numbers to be bounded.
<rly>
clever: i.e. a configuration option where I can specify N < X*Y.
<clever>
rly: the issue, is that build-cores doesnt always help derivations (some ignore it), so if you go purely with build-max-jobs=1, build-cores=10, it will waste resources
<gchristensen>
I always run with jobs=<cores> and cores=1
<clever>
rly: but on the other hand, build-max-jobs=10, build-cores=1 will waste resources when you have a series of derivations that depend on eachother
<rly>
I am also not sure why build-cores is specified twice.
<clever>
each derivation will only use 1 core
<clever>
rly: you probably added it to extraConfig
<clever>
rly: another issue related to what you said, build-cores simply sets $NIX_BUILD_CORES when a build starts, and the stdenv may run make -j $NIX_BUILD_CORES, or it may just run make
<clever>
rly: so nix-daemon doesnt know how many cores a given derivation is actualy going to use
<clever>
and i saw a bug a few months ago where a derivation ignored that entirely, and used /proc/cpuinfo to max the system out on its own
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<rly>
clever: I think this all should be managed via cgroups.
<clever>
and there is a related problem ive run into on my arm builders
<rly>
clever: on Linux that is, not sure about other platforms.
<clever>
there is a step in the glibc build, that takes a crap-ton of ram
<clever>
so i dont want any parallelization on just that step
<clever>
but there is no way to set that
<clever>
so i either -j 4, and let 3 gcc's fight over the ram with that 1 thing
<clever>
or i -j 1 and wait 4 times as long for the build
<clever>
cgroups wont really help that kind of thing
<rly>
clever: cgroups allows for maximum resource limitations.
<rly>
clever: but for your case, no.,
<clever>
yeah
<rly>
clever: the build system should keep track of the resources used by the builders.
<clever>
and i think using cgroups on a more powerful machine, would just recreate that problem
<clever>
your making it behave like a weaker system, as viewed by a subset of the processes
<rly>
clever: and suspend the right computations.
<clever>
rly: there is a weird thing make doesn, that could be tapped into, at the cost of complexity
<clever>
rly: if you make -j8, it will spawn off children for the subdirs, that also make -j8
<clever>
but it doesnt multiply
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<clever>
the make processes somehow talk to the 1st one, and coordinate sharing those 8 jobs
<rly>
clever: I changed to the right channel, but it's still building firefox.
<clever>
rly: what revision is git on now?, git rev-parse HEAD
<rly>
clever: 81428dd022c2676
<clever>
yep, thats the revision for nixos-16.09
<mpickering>
Is the best way to learn how to use nixos to read the manual or is there a more gentle recommended introduction?
<clever>
and what command are you running that is wanting to build firefox?
<gchristensen>
mpickering: depends on who you ask I guess. I usually learn something by experimentation first and using it, and then going and reading the whole manual. I know some people who really like to read the whole manual first.
<gchristensen>
mpickering: I started by downloading the vbox image and installing nixos
<clever>
rly: that has no effect on the current build, that will only effect the next build
<clever>
rly: so the current value of $NIX_PATH is what matters
<mpickering>
I have a nixos installation already, I guess I need to learn the basics about how to write nix expressions in order to do what I want and the manual will be best then
<mpickering>
thanks
<rly>
clever: oh, that's a rather terrible feature, if true.
<rly>
clever: so, I should manually override the NIX_PATH?
<clever>
rly: all that config option does, is change the default $NIX_PATH in a /etc file, for when you re-launch a shell
<clever>
rly: and that /etc file wont exist until the entire build is done
<clever>
at which point, its too late to have done its job
<clever>
rly: yeah
<rly>
clever: yes, I get it.
<gchristensen>
mpickering: follow some examples, read the nix (separate manual from nixos and nixpkgs,) and ask questions
<rly>
clever: but I can't think of any reason why anyone would want that.
<joachifm>
mpickering: look up lethalman's nix pills series
<gchristensen>
read the nix manual*
<gchristensen>
oh my yes, his pills are great
<clever>
rly: to change the default for future builds, or to add custom things
<dash>
yes i had to read those blog posts to understand things :)
<rly>
clever: what is the equivalent NIX_PATH for my nixPath?
<clever>
rly: -I is simpler, nixos-rebuild switch -I nixpkgs=/home/me/src/nixpkgs-channels
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<rly>
mpickering: you can just start with the hello world package.
<rly>
mpickering: go in a nix-shell and actually build it by hand.
<rly>
mpickering: running the command env in that environment will also be enlightening.
<NixOS_GitHub>
[nixpkgs] NeQuissimus pushed 2 new commits to master: https://git.io/v1H5v
<NixOS_GitHub>
nixpkgs/master cb9ff3f Tim Steinbach: linux: 4.4.38 -> 4.4.39
<NixOS_GitHub>
nixpkgs/master 0e8e4a0 Tim Steinbach: linux: 4.8.14 -> 4.8.15
<rly>
clever: it now works according to plan.
<NixOS_GitHub>
[nixpkgs] NeQuissimus pushed 2 new commits to release-16.09: https://git.io/v1H5f
<NixOS_GitHub>
nixpkgs/release-16.09 b2040b9 Tim Steinbach: linux: 4.4.38 -> 4.4.39...
<NixOS_GitHub>
nixpkgs/release-16.09 f23dae0 Tim Steinbach: linux: 4.8.14 -> 4.8.15...
<mpickering>
Maybe someone can help me get unstuck before I read everything. I am using "ghcWithPackages" to setup a haskell environment with some packages already installed. This requires specifying a list of packages you want.
<mpickering>
I want to generate a list of all packages and install them all
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<gchristensen>
oh gosh that is a whole thing
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<clever>
mpickering: nixos has every single package in hackage, that might take a while to compile...
<mpickering>
or just the ones in LTS, some large number which I know will compile together
<gchristensen>
mpickering: is this for a stress test? or do you really need _all_ the packages?
<mpickering>
I work on GHC and want to test the compiler
<gchristensen>
neat!
<mpickering>
So the plan is to make this environment, then in this shell I can use cabal as normal BUT all C dependencies etc will already be installed
<mpickering>
which is usually a pain
<LnL>
mpickering: all the packages in the haskellPackages attribute are from the latest lts
<LnL>
mpickering: if you have a ghcWithPackages function that uses your compiler you could probably just use: ghcWithPackages (p: p)
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<domenkozar>
you might need to filter null, but yeah that's sounds like a good start
<clever>
LnL: error: Package ‘NewBinary-0.2.1’ in ‘/nix/store/jk5dvrv6w9bcgh88g0x7clk19df3q28f-nixos-17.03pre96925.1c50bdd/nixos/pkgs/development/haskell-modules/hackage-packages.nix:12162’ is marked as broken, refusing to evaluate.
<domenkozar>
if you want to work on GHC, you'll have to recompile all packages in this case.
<domenkozar>
mpickering: can you describe a bit more in detail how you plan your workflow?
<LnL>
oh right, you'll also have to filter broken stuff out
<clever>
error: Package ‘Elm-0.13’ in ‘/nix/store/jk5dvrv6w9bcgh88g0x7clk19df3q28f-nixos-17.03pre96925.1c50bdd/nixos/pkgs/development/haskell-modules/hackage-packages.nix:4484’ is marked as broken, refusing to evaluate.
<clever>
oh, maybe it was under meta
<LnL>
clever: yeah I think so
<clever>
nix-repl> haskell.packages.ghc802.ghcWithPackages (p: lib.filter (x: x ? meta && x.meta ? broken && !x.meta.broken) (lib.attrValues p))
<clever>
error: Package ‘Elm-0.13’ in ‘/nix/store/jk5dvrv6w9bcgh88g0x7clk19df3q28f-nixos-17.03pre96925.1c50bdd/nixos/pkgs/development/haskell-modules/hackage-packages.nix:4484’ is marked as broken, refusing to evaluate.
<mpickering>
domenkozar: I plan to recompile all the packages but I first need to setup an environment which has all the right c dependencies
<mpickering>
so I can "nix-env" and then "cabal install" will work for any package
<clever>
mpickering: under nix, your not supposed to install such dependencies, you list them in the package, and nix will just build things for you
<LnL>
clever: perhaps you also need to look at meta.platforms?
<domenkozar>
you'll need two things: be able to tell where ghc source is and filter out all broken/missing packages
<clever>
LnL: oh, i see the problem
<clever>
LnL: you cant inspect the values on a broken package, to see if its broken
<clever>
error: Package ‘Elm-0.13’ in ‘/nix/store/jk5dvrv6w9bcgh88g0x7clk19df3q28f-nixos-17.03pre96925.1c50bdd/nixos/pkgs/development/haskell-modules/hackage-packages.nix:4484’ is marked as broken, refusing to evaluate.
<clever>
but if i set allowBroken, it returns the meta
<LnL>
that's strange, does the derivation get evaluated when querying meta?
<mpickering>
domenkozar: I read that haskellPackages was roughly linked to the LTS?
<clever>
LnL: i think the stdenv is protecting the entire attribute, not just the derivation value
<clever>
mpickering: haskell.packages.ghc802.ghcWithPackages (p: lib.filter (x: x ? meta && x.meta ? broken && !x.meta.broken) (lib.attrValues p))
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<clever>
mpickering: and set allowBroken = true; in ~/.nixpkgs/config.nix
<domenkozar>
mpickering: correct
<domenkozar>
mpickering: do you want the latest packages?
<LnL>
or import <nixpkgs> { config.allowBroken = true; }
<clever>
mpickering: in theory, this will compile ghc 802, and build EVERYTHING with that ghc, then give you a ghc that can use everything at once
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<clever>
error: Package ‘StrategyLib-4.0.0.0’ in ‘/nix/store/jk5dvrv6w9bcgh88g0x7clk19df3q28f-nixos-17.03pre96925.1c50bdd/nixos/pkgs/development/haskell-modules/hackage-packages.nix:16093’ has an unfree license (‘unfree’), refusing to evaluate.
<domenkozar>
clever: don't teach newcomers special functions
<domenkozar>
:)
<LnL>
doesn't nix-repl have :t
<clever>
nix-repl> :t 42
<clever>
an integer
<clever>
though that only works in the repl, cant be used in an expression or nix-instantiate --eval
<gchristensen>
domenkozar: is there a plan on fixing the hydra issue? I don't want to wait until a lot of users get unhappy
<domenkozar>
gchristensen: niksnut needs to decide
<domenkozar>
what path to take
<domenkozar>
can't speak in his name :)
<gchristensen>
does he know?
<mpickering>
I am in the repl now, inspecting the "haskellPackages" set and it seems to be a map from string to string, I expected a map from string to set so I could inspect librarySystemDepends for each package
<clever>
mpickering: http://pastebin.com/17fnXRun all derivations can also be cast to a string, which is the path where that derivation will install to
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<ocharles_>
Does anyone know how to get qtbluetooth for QT 5.5+?
<ocharles_>
It's not a submodule, it seems to be part of base, but we don't seem to have it in our builds. Not entirely sure what you need to do to get it
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<ocharles_>
aha, I think it's in "qtconnectivity"
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<rly>
clever: nix-build now still tries to build the world.
<rly>
clever: env contains a NIX_PATH which looks fine.
<clever>
rly: what args are you giving to nix-build?
<rly>
clever: none, but I do have: pkgs ? import <my-nixpkgs> {} }.
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<rly>
clever: sorry, nix-build foo.nix
<clever>
ah, so it will depend on what my-nixpkgs is set to in $NIX_PATH
<clever>
or the existance of a my-nixpkgs directory in one of the nix-path elements
<rly>
clever: OK, so how can I override that on the command line?
<clever>
-I my-nixpkgs=/path/to/nixpkgs
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<NixOS_GitHub>
[nixpkgs] abbradar pushed 1 new commit to master: https://git.io/v1Hhx
<NixOS_GitHub>
nixpkgs/master 664cc49 Nikolay Amiantov: gbenchmark: init at 1.1.0
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<ocharles_>
which is nonsense - why is /tmp there?
<ocharles_>
Any Qt packagers know what's up?
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<ocharles_>
The final step of building has: g++ -Wl,-O1 -Wl,-rpath,/tmp/nix-build-golden-cheetah-3.4.drv-0/__nix_qt5__/lib -Wl,-rpath-link,/tmp/nix-build-golden-cheetah-3.4.drv-0/__nix_qt5__/lib -o GoldenCheetah qtsoap.o QTFullScreen.o
<ocharles_>
So that's where the rpath is coming from
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<NixOS_GitHub>
[nixpkgs] larkery opened pull request #21207: Fiddle LD_LIBRARY_PATH to include GDAL (master...patch-1) https://git.io/v1QJf
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<avn>
ocharles_: cmake based build?
<ocharles_>
no, qmake
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<m`>
Hi! Im trying to get familiar with building nix-expressions. I'm getting the following error when using: 'nix-build myexpr.nix': error: cannot auto-call a function that has an argument without a default value (‘stdenv’), the expression I'm using can be found here http://codepad.org/n6uvgEd5
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<LnL>
how are you importing that?
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<LnL>
m`: oh you can't nix-build that directly because it's a function with arguments
<m`>
in this attempt I tried to build it directly. so it needs a sort of wrapper?
<NixOS_GitHub>
[nixpkgs] Ericson2314 opened pull request #21209: Separate truely top-level code from per-bootstrapping-stage code (master...organize) https://git.io/v1QIG
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<viric>
mpf. I'm downloading at 84KB/s from nixos.org/channels
<viric>
(a cloudfront thing)
<viric>
we should have torrent links
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<viric>
- for isos -
<LnL>
I'm really surprised by how many cloudfront issues we have
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<viric>
60KB/s
<viric>
80minutes for the iso
<LnL>
considering what it's supposed to do
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<m`>
LnL: but that should work normally, no? should trigger the path-literal parsing.. However, when using ".fetch-deps.sh", it complains that the file does not exist..
<viric>
is there any workaround?
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<LnL>
m`: oh the file starts with a dot?
<m`>
LnL: yes
<LnL>
viric: it's usually something regional, so if you have some sort of other connection you can use that might help
<viric>
other connection *out of the region*? no
<viric>
I'll try an hydra result.
<LnL>
the hydra link will most likely not work anymore
<m`>
LnL: it works when removing the dot from the filename!
<LnL>
strange I would expect it to work
<clever>
m`: what about ./.fetch-deps.sh; ?
<mpickering>
So in hackage-packages the distinction between haskellDependencies and systemDependencies is clearly marked but when I look at "haskellPackages.<pkg>" the information in the derivation is quite different with no distinction between the two any more
<mpickering>
How can I get at this system dependency information
<clever>
mpickering: that would be a nix function that combines everything together
<mpickering>
What exactly would be?
<clever>
mpickering: all of the haskell packages run thru a special function, that turns the list of haskellDependencies and systemDependencies into the more normal nativeBuildInputs stuff
<clever>
mpickering: line 157 of the file i linked
<jazzencat>
Hm, looks like if I want the legacy e16wm I will have to compile it myself.
<mpickering>
and line 137 combines them all together
<LnL>
rly: yes, it's not free :p
<clever>
mpickering: looks like all of the haskell stuff goes into the propagated inputs, and the system stuff goes into the native inputs
<rly>
LnL: sure, but it might be that they got a promotional deal or something like that.
<rly>
LnL: such things sometimes happen.
<rly>
LnL: and in that case the "real" clients come first.
<LnL>
don't know the details
<clever>
mpickering: so if you put the haskell package foo into your buildInputs, you automaticaly get every haskell depdency of foo (recusrively)
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<clever>
mpickering: which probably helps ghc find the pieces of the entire closure, and optimize things to death
<NixOS_GitHub>
[nixpkgs] vbgl pushed 1 new commit to master: https://git.io/v1QmW
<NixOS_GitHub>
nixpkgs/master 1946e87 Fatih Altinok: flow: 0.36.0 -> 0.37.1
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<mpickering>
ok this explains what I was seeing, sometimes nativeBuildInputs had exactly what I wanted
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<clever>
mpickering: yeah, line 136 and 137 concat a bunch of things, to make 2 main lists, and then lines 168 and 169 use those 2 lists
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<mpickering>
but that was the case when it is an executable, all the haskell deps are also in the "nativeBuildDeps"
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<clever>
mpickering: also of use, is line 291, passthru
<clever>
mpickering: everything inside the passthru attributeset can be accessed as an attribute on the derivation, but has no effect on the build
<clever>
mpickering: and in there is things like .env, which is a modified derivation for building foo, and the main build of foo doesnt depend on that env
<NixOS_GitHub>
[nixpkgs] FRidh pushed 1 new commit to staging: https://git.io/v1QmA
<clever>
LnL: next thing i need is to do something with the default and example values, add a button to populate the left tree, and handle the xml in the description better
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<NixOS_GitHub>
[nixpkgs] mdaiter opened pull request #21210: stanchion: add Darwin support (master...stanchionMac) https://git.io/v1QGy
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<mpickering>
clever: It seems that the .env.nativeBuildInputs contain infinite loops?
<clever>
mpickering: it shouldnt, as far as i understand it
<clever>
LnL: this removes 1 space from each line, causing the 2nd&3rd line to remain indented
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<rly>
How can I install a local resolver easily? I.e. such that all DNS requests are cached?
<LnL>
clever: oh
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<mpickering>
clever: also I tried the command you said about "env" before and there is an error "error: attribute ‘nixos’ in selection path ‘nixos.haskell.compiler.LibClang’ not found"
<jazzencat>
What is a good backup WM to have incase something goes screwy with my main one?
<clever>
mpickering: the nixos. prefix is only for nix-env, it cant be used with all of the other nix tools
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<mpickering>
So I should use "nix-shell -A haskellPackages.LibClang" ?
<clever>
mpickering: either "nix-shell -A haskellPackages.LibClang" or "nix-shell -A haskellPackages.LibClang.env"
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<NixOS_GitHub>
[nixpkgs] cleverca22 opened pull request #21211: fix indentation in several nixos option descriptions (master...docs) https://git.io/v1QCU
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<NixOS_GitHub>
[nixpkgs] cleverca22 opened pull request #21212: fix 2 xml errors in the description of efiInstallAsRemovable (master...docs) https://git.io/v1QKx
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<Mic92>
clever: merged
<NixOS_GitHub>
[nixpkgs] Mic92 closed pull request #21212: fix 2 xml errors in the description of efiInstallAsRemovable (master...docs) https://git.io/v1QKx
<clever>
Mic92: there are currently no other xml errors that i can see, i wrote a tool to go over the description of everything, lol
<warbo>
I'm currently writing a file then importing it :(
<dan1>
Oh my that's perfect. I love runit or s6 thanks
<clever>
dan1: i have a local fork (need to push it still) that can boot nix-daemon on a raspberry pi, and do sandboxes nix builds, with a 40mb ramdisk
<dan1>
clever: thanks thats awesome
<clever>
dan1: the entire thing compiles down to just a squashfs, kernel, and initrd
<warbo>
I'm using it to fiddle with Haskell packages whilst ensuring that haskellPackages.callPackage passes in the required args
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<clever>
Mic92: heh, looks like i had totally swapped out the http server i was using, and git doesnt merge that kind of thing well
<Mic92>
webserver?
<clever>
Mic92: the old code used QHttp for the server, the fork used websocketpp
<clever>
then i did more work on the QHttp variant, having forgotten about the websocketpp one
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<NixOS_GitHub>
[nixpkgs] domenkozar created haskell-parallel-builds (+1 new commit): https://git.io/v1QHt
<NixOS_GitHub>
nixpkgs/haskell-parallel-builds 2e626a5 Domen Kožar: Haskell generic builder: enable parallel builds for GHC 8.0.2...
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<NixOS_GitHub>
[nixpkgs] domenkozar opened pull request #21214: Haskell generic builder: enable parallel builds for GHC 8.0.2 (master...haskell-parallel-builds) https://git.io/v1QHl
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<dan1>
clever: What's the easiest way I could play with not-os or what's the minimal set of changes to a vanilla nixos install to replace systemd with runit like you have done? Just running ssh works for me ;)
<clever>
dan1: part of the problem is that every single service in nixos uses systemd stuff to define itself
<clever>
dan1: so with a single nix-build command, i can change all of the firmware the rpi runs, even if its unresponsive, without having to change the SD card out
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<dan1>
clever: clever indeed ;)
<clever>
oh, and half of those files are outside of the git repo, unfinished work that got interupted by a power outage and then forgotten
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<clever>
dan1: i also wired up a large arcade machine button to the reset pin on the rpi, so i could just punch that to test a build
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<t2>
hi! I'm working on an utility, which converts clojure-boot projects into nix-expressions. Basically a builder bash script is created, which curls all the needed packages froma repo. I'm looking for a strategy to check their sha in the nix-expression.
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<t2>
is there a better approch than specifying a wrong sha, let nix build it, and then re-enter the suggested sha?
<gchristensen>
t2: you can do nix-prefetch-url -A hello.src (as an example)
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<t2>
gchristensen: actually I just found out that the repo provides me with a sha1 for each file. is that helping or do we need sha2?
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<clever>
t2: nix usualy takes the hash of the NAR archive, not the bare file within it
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<clever>
t2: so no hash that upstream provides will work
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<t2>
alright. at the moment it's like this: a builder bash script just fetches the dependencies, and then I thought of checking the hash of the eintire content of $out by the help of the outputHash property in the nix-expression. However, this looks inpossible when having only the shas (received by nix-prefetch-url) for each individual file.
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<t2>
so would I check the sha's already in the bash script or could I use some nix-facilities for it?
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<clever>
t2: it may help if you look at the nix-prefetch-git scripts
<clever>
t2: and nix-store --add-fixed
<clever>
that allows fetching something outside of nix, then adding it to the /nix/store, and getting the hash of it
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<toogley>
hey. i have 'programs.zsh.interactiveShellInit = "$HOME/.dotfiles/zsh/zshrc";' in my configuration.nix. but when i start zsh, i receive "/etc/zshrc:51: permission denied: /home/toogley/.dotfiles/zsh/zshrc" - how can i fix this?
<clever>
toogley: i think you want the source command
<clever>
toogley: the current code is trying to start a new process, with zshrc (which isnt +x'd), and all variables that sets will be lost when it quits
<toogley>
ideally, i would like to not use any symlinks and only reference the file in the configuration.nix
<jazzencat>
I think I need to print out the Nix Manual and read through it. Reading online is awkward.
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<toogley>
clever: ah, it does work - i just forgot to rebuild my config. thanks!
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<t2>
clever: alright, I'll check it out. Just as a rough direction: Am I right in the assumtion, that a bash builder that just fetches sources does not make sense here?
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<clever>
t2: pkgs.fetchurl already does exactly that
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<jazzencat>
Questions questions, WeeChat or irssi or hexchat?
<toogley>
jazzencat: i love weechat
<clever>
jazzencat: i always use irssi
<MichaelRaskin>
I read this conversation in a screen with "tail -f" of ii log…
<peti>
jazzencat: Weechat is pretty much irssi with many essentials features included that irssi needs external plugins for. No idea about hexchat.
<toogley>
jazzencat: but i guess that depends on whether you like using an terminal or not^^
<toogley>
MichaelRaskin: nice :D
<t2>
clever: great, where can I get the documentation of this function?
<toogley>
MichaelRaskin: what is the reason for that setup?
<MichaelRaskin>
But then, I pretty much configured mcabber to behave like ii
<clever>
t2: fetchurl should be in the nixpkgs manual
<avn>
Also curious about hexchat, do it have some nice features?
<MichaelRaskin>
I guess the real real reason is that my setup «everything goes to log and then tail -f» makes it easy to do flexible notifications in the way I want
<jazzencat>
Hmm, I'm using hexchat right now, but weechat looks nice because I can use it as a relay and connect to my home computer with my smart phone as well.
<jazzencat>
And apparently WeeChat suppots external HTML5 interfaces as well.
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<jazzencat>
So I can have terminal or GUI, depending on what I want.
<NixOS_GitHub>
[nixpkgs] domenkozar force-pushed haskell-parallel-builds from 2e626a5 to d0250ad: https://git.io/v1QAs
<NixOS_GitHub>
nixpkgs/haskell-parallel-builds d0250ad Domen Kožar: Haskell generic builder: enable parallel builds for GHC 8.0.2...
<toogley>
jazzencat: you could maybe also use some bouncer and use different clients.
<jazzencat>
That's true. Signing up for a free bouncer can be a bit of a hassle.
<toogley>
jazzencat: but commercial ones don't cost a lot. i know one for about 3 € per year or so?
<toogley>
jazzencat: but i have no experience with that.
<jazzencat>
Quassel is another possibility. If I had an external box I could install Quassel Core and then connect to it with the client from different devices.
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<jazzencat>
Ah.
<jazzencat>
My preferred browser is only available in RPM or .deb packages for linux, is there a way to have nix-env handle and install those formats as well?
<jazzencat>
I think they might have released the source-code so I could use that if I can find it.
<toogley>
jazzencat: but i have no real experience with it.
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<jazzencat>
Well, WeeChat might be a good intermediate solution and easier to set up for the same features as quassel-irc which I also really like. WeeChat is hard to set up on Windows unfortunately and that's what my Desktop is.
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<toogley>
jazzencat: xchat might be also a solution, i think.
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<jazzencat>
HexChat and XChat are the same family.
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<jazzencat>
Hm, Vivaldi source code downloads is a bit outdated.
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<bennofs1>
jazzencat: I think nixpkgs-unstable has a package for vivaldi
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<jazzencat>
Is there a way to rename my channels without having to unsubscribe and resubscribe?
<clever>
jazzencat: not that i know if
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<jazzencat>
Okay. Well, unsub/resub to rename isn't too onerous.
<jazzencat>
Hm, says vivaldi is unfree. I guess they have stopped releasing their sourcecode again.
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<clever>
jazzencat: one weird thing that always trips up new comers, the nix-env search commands wont show unfree things, until you enable unfree
<jazzencat>
Would nix-env -qaA nixos-unstable.vivaldi search for it as well.
<clever>
jazzencat: and you wont know how to enable unfree, because it doesnt tell you
<clever>
until you force the whole name with -A
<jazzencat>
Yeah.
<jazzencat>
I see that. I need to put the allowUnfree in the configuration.nix
<t2>
clever: alright, I checked out fetchurl. Still not 100% sure, if this is the thing I need. The general thing that the utility should do is this: Extract all the outside clojure dependencies from the project, determine for each one a nix-compatible sha via e.g. nix-prefetch-url. finally I need to feed this to the clojure build tool. E.g by setting up a particular environment variable(BOOT_LOCAL_REPO), that points to
<t2>
a directory. then runt the tool for the building. So inbetween that a nix-expression must generated. The problem here is: that to me it looks like fetchurl fetches finally a source string. but I need them sort of in a directory. also what I'm fetching are jars(=zips), which may contain several files...
<clever>
jazzencat: configuration.nix only effects nixos-rebuild, it has no effect on nix-env
<clever>
jazzencat: for nix-env, you need ~/.nixpkgs/config.nix, the error should give example contents
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<jazzencat>
I saw that.
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<jazzencat>
allowUnfree = true; has to go in /.nixpkgs/config.nix
<jazzencat>
Looks like I don't have a ~/.nixpkgs/config.nix
<bachp>
I would like to parse the version field version = "1.3.1"; into multiple variables: versionMajor = "1"; versionMinor = "3"; and versionPatch = "2"; . Is there a function to do this in nix? I wasn't able to find somethin with a quick search.
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<jazzencat>
We just won't tell RMS that it tells me how to install unfree stuff...
<clever>
bachp: one sec
<bachp>
I found splitString "." "foo.bar.baz" which I could use but I tought maybe there is an other more specific way to parse versions
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<clever>
bachp: ah, id just use the expression i pasted above, its a bit more complex, but the next person to bump the version only has to edit 2 things (the version, and hash)
<eacameron>
Has anyone combined vagrant and nixos?
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<dash>
eacameron: probably :)
<dash>
eacameron: but since you can run nix without nixos there's probably not been much particular need for it
<eacameron>
dash: I suppose that's a good point.
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<jazzencat>
Looks like I need to add ~/.nixpkgs/config.nix to my system. I use root to run the nix-env installs usually. Would I want to put it in /root?
<clever>
jazzencat: yep
<bachp>
clever: Is the "lib." necessary? Isn't elemAt a built in?
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<clever>
bachp: elemAt is a built in, so you can also reference it via builtins.elemAt or __elemAt
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<clever>
bachp: a lot of nix files also have with lib; (or in this case, with stdenv.lib;) in them, so its just simpler to use the lib version
<bachp>
clever: SO just elemAt wouldn't work? I think I misunderstud how builtins work
<bachp>
clever: So best practice in this case would be to import lib or to use stdenv.lib?
<clever>
bachp: just elemAt doesnt work in the repl, havent really checked to see how nix files handle it
<clever>
yeah, you already have stdenv being passed in, and stdenv.lib is there for this reason
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<bachp>
Ok got it. Thanks for the help
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<jazzencat>
Vivaldi isn't too badly out of date. Version 1.5, and the current version is 1.6
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<c0bw3b>
plus 1.6 was published only yesterday :)
<c0bw3b>
or 2 days ago maybe
<jazzencat>
Yep, so not really out of date ;)
<jazzencat>
I guess they moved to git for their source-code?
<jazzencat>
I'm not sure why Vivaldi is considered unfree, seeing as they did publish source code... unless they have changed that policy again and only distribute binaries...
<c0bw3b>
jazzencat : the base code is chromium but some additional components are under copyright
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<c0bw3b>
see vivaldi://credits if you have one running
<c0bw3b>
for example Breakpad for crash reporting
<jazzencat>
Oh, I see.
<jazzencat>
Well, it's a good tool so I use it. I don't really care about the "purity" of my OS.
<clever>
the linux steam also happens to use breakpad
<jazzencat>
If RMS and the FSF Zealots want me to only use free software then they can damn well make tools that work properly.
<jazzencat>
^,^
<c0bw3b>
I also use Vivaldi on windows at work and at home as a secondary browser after firefox
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<simpson>
jazzencat: I believe that you may have misunderstood the Free Software ideology. We want you to use Free Software not because we want you to suffer, and not because we want you to be enthralled by some Free Software brain worm, but because we believe that you have a *right* to Free Software.
<jazzencat>
Breakpad is Apache Licence. Isn't that considered a FOSS Licence.
<simpson>
You also have a right to use non-Free Software. There's some ethical considerations beyond this, but we won't force you to conform to our ethical worldview.
<simpson>
Apache 2.0 is a great license.
<jazzencat>
Yeah, I get that, and given a choice I use the FOSS versions, but I have other stuff I want to do with my time and fixing non-functional FOSS programs ain't one of them at the moment.
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<rardiol>
what's the proper way to separate a library between a qt4 and qt5 version? Append a _qt4 to the attribute name and use 2 separate nix files? find some way to use an argument passed to the derivation?
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<jazzencat>
simpson, that snarky crack about RMS and the FSF zealots wasn't aimed at you, I was referencing the instances of RMS flat-out telling someone they shouldn't use Photoshop for work because it's unethical and that they should use the sub-optimal GIMP instead for their work and take more time (Though GIMP is getting there and is a very good tool for hobbyists)
<simpson>
jazzencat: It *is* not-very-ethical to support the PS empire, to participate in its piracy-extortion racket, and to ignore the provenance of one's tools.
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<simpson>
But, again, most of us are *not* going to force others to adhere to our personal ethical compasses.
<jazzencat>
Which makes you one of the non-zealots ;)
<simpson>
Well, I used to work as an evangelist for a FLOSS shop. I would describe myself as zealous.
<jazzencat>
Well, then...
<simpson>
Perhaps we're not like you think we are~
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<rardiol>
I honestly think a real free zealot would be running guixsd
<jazzencat>
And if you mean the price paid by for the software = piracy extortion, I'm not sure I agree. Brian Lunduke made this point as well, that $300'000 budget per year would pay for maybe 4 full-time developers, and that's not counting QA, marketing and all the rest that goes with it.
<jazzencat>
$60/copy of a Triple-A game means they have to sell more than 330'000 units to break even for a development budget of $20 million which is on the low end for that type of game.
<Ralith>
you don't spend $20 million on a game if you're not expecting far more sales than that, of course
<Ralith>
(also, I hear kiva is pretty competitive these days, 2d artwise)
<jazzencat>
That's just the break-even for it, and yeah you'd expect more than to just break even.
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<MichaelRaskin>
I think extortion is about the ways to make unsubstuntiated parts of lawsuits prohibitively expensive to litigate
<NixOS_GitHub>
[nixpkgs] Mic92 pushed 1 new commit to master: https://git.io/v17k4
<jazzencat>
MichaelRaskin, you mean the patent issues? Yeah the laws could use some reforming and fixing, but remember also that under the current system they have to defend their patents and that companies like that have to deal with patent trolls.
<MichaelRaskin>
Copyright infringement lawsuits also sometimes include interesting parts, to say the least
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<MichaelRaskin>
Well, as for the patents, they are a problem, not a solution
<MichaelRaskin>
And not a victim
<MichaelRaskin>
They are not even saying they want software patents to be unenforceable
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<jazzencat>
True, but even FOSS has to be prepared to defend the copyright (copyleft, hyuk punny) when someone distributes a GPL program in binary form without providing the corresponding sourcecode in a timely manner... or alters the orginal author's licence.
<jazzencat>
Depending on how hardline they are, they don't want software patents to exist at all.
<MichaelRaskin>
Well, unenforceable is the same as not existing except you can use the paperwork as a proof of timestamp
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<NixOS_GitHub>
[nixpkgs] Mic92 closed pull request #21160: ntp: make timesyncd the new default (master...timesyncd) https://git.io/v1yfq
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<MichaelRaskin>
Technically speaking, translating the original idea of invention patents to software yields something already covered by the current state of copyright
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<jazzencat>
Send a copy to yourself in registered mail once you have completed the code, that will serve as a timestamp as long as the seal on the package isn't broken.
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<MichaelRaskin>
(Well, it depends on translation, of course)
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<MichaelRaskin>
jazzencat: I just wanted to say that my position is equivalent to nonexistence
<jazzencat>
Ultimately for a user like my Mom or Dad, FOSS ends up being no cheaper than proprietary as they have to hire a developer to make the program to their specifications and would be dependent on this dev doing the job they want, just as they are dependent on MS or Adobe making the tools they need. All that's changed is whether the licence allows them to share the program with their neigbours or not.
<MichaelRaskin>
Re: registered mail — I guess notarized copy has a benefit of better reusability
<jazzencat>
And you can do that with hard-copies anyway.
<viric>
there are quite enough timestamping mechanisms though
<viric>
cryptographic timestamping
<jazzencat>
Registered mail can also contain a USB drive with the program or code on it rather than a thick paper printout.
<viric>
jazzencat: nand memories vanish after some months
<viric>
unpowered.
<MichaelRaskin>
And the notion of unopened quickly becomes complicated with electronics
<Ralith>
jazzencat: what changes in the circumstance you describe is that you can bring in a different developer in the future if the original one becomes unavailable
<jazzencat>
The crypto has an issue of whether the devs know what they are doing or know enough to select the right tools. But yeah that can work too. For printout like blueprints the registered mail trick is simple and holds up in Canadian court at any rate.
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<jazzencat>
But the point is that the cost would still not be significantly cheaper all told that the proprietary solution.
<jazzencat>
You spend time or you spend money.
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<Ralith>
the cost of being dependent upon a sole IP owner can be very high indeed
<jazzencat>
Which isn't all that different from switching from Corel to Adobe or something.
<MichaelRaskin>
Also ther is a question of being able to _continue_ using exactly the same setup as you use
<jazzencat>
I did audio mastering work and I was using Audacity for that. But the audio effects plugins were not up to scratch for quality. When I asked around for devs to help develop better ones and I'd pay them, everyone I asked just flat out refused to do it.
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<jazzencat>
When I asked in the Pidgin IRC channel how I could switch input languages on the fly without having to go into the system language settings each time, I got the response of "why would you want to anyway?"
<MichaelRaskin>
Well, with proprietary software you get the situation where buying one more license for the thing that already exists is impossible
<jazzencat>
Why is buying another licence impossible? Unless the software is out of production...
<Ralith>
the fact that you can't afford to hire/aren't very good at hiring developers does not negate the fact that it can sometimes be immensely valuable to have the option to :P
<MichaelRaskin>
jazzencat: and so what if it is out of production?
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<MichaelRaskin>
I mean, I have been the person buying Windows 98 leftovers in weird places
<Ralith>
I have a friend who studies nuclear physics
<jazzencat>
Then I burn copies of it and use those if I need to. I still use Adobe Master Suite CS6.
<Ralith>
his university's lab is full of equipment that is in constant danger of becoming useless, because it is operated by software that is no longer maintained
<Ralith>
some of this equipment cost millions of dollars and cannot, practically speaking, be replaced
<MichaelRaskin>
In my case, we had hardware older than Windows 95 with very good and tested drivers for DOS and for Windows 9x.
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<MichaelRaskin>
The hardware costs mere thousands of dollars, though
<jazzencat>
There are banks that have computers that still use magnetic tape for their storage, that still do what they are supposed to do, and the banks hire companies to custom-build replacement parts.
<Ralith>
labs across the country have to share hacks and work-arounds to eke out just a little more life from gear that would be working fine if not for the fact that the control systems were proprietary to companies that no longer exist
<Ralith>
the source code to which has almost certainly been destroyed
<Ralith>
not everybody has the resources and negotiating position of a bank, unfortunately
<jazzencat>
Yeah, so there we have a problem, and that's where the OpenBSD team's insistance on good documentation helps, because it makes reverse-engineering things possible.
<clever>
MichaelRaskin: the development hardware for the sega genesis? console only works on windows 95
<clever>
MichaelRaskin: and this crazy guy is trying to make a game on it
<jazzencat>
Yeah. And when you don't have the coding skills and no resources you're not in a much better position to be able to hire someone to fix GIMP to your specifications either.
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<jazzencat>
You just have to wait until someone, maybe, comes up with the idea and implements it.
<jazzencat>
Haha.
<jazzencat>
Nice.
<clever>
MichaelRaskin: and i think the interactive debugger is raw dos, only windows95 lacks the security that allows dos to control isa cards directly
<MichaelRaskin>
Did you say reverse engineering?
<jazzencat>
Local game store sells consoles that run NES, SNES, SEGA Genesis games.
<MichaelRaskin>
Because software licenses are allowed to prohibit it
<jazzencat>
Yeah, depending on where you are EULAs aren't enforcable unless you show the person the EULA before they purchase the software.
<clever>
jazzencat: the video i linked, is the original sega development console, with specialized hardware to allow you to set breakpoints and inspect the state of the game
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<viric>
I worked in a company that produced private software. Unlike Windows, though, we used very strong counter-copy mechanisms. So when the licences had been discontinued, noone could get any new copy.
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<clever>
viric: that reminds me of a /r/talesfromtechsupport/ post i read a week ago, the software in question would brick itself if you try to read the licensing key files
<clever>
viric: and backup software often reads those keys
<MichaelRaskin>
Well, in any remotely reasonable interpretation of informing the user, most Windows installer versions qualify as computer viruses
<clever>
viric: the user kept reporting that it was broken, they kept asking, "do you have any backup software" and he kept answering no
<MichaelRaskin>
In the criminal code sense
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<viric>
:) not that kind. It was not self-destructing, but used smartcards and crazy code wrapping
<clever>
viric: months down the road, he starts the convo with 'do you think its my backup software?'
<MichaelRaskin>
In the sense that they can change the boot sector without asking and before showing the license, then fail to install and leave an unbootable system
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<MichaelRaskin>
Windows 10 brought this to an art form by sometimes managing to do this via autoupdate
<viric>
MichaelRaskin: a few weeks ago... Installing some software caused BSOD, and it started on boot and it caused BSOD in boot. You go to the special blank boot, click some kind of "repair", and the outcome was a boot that reported "No operating system found"
<clever>
viric: many years ago, i discovered that if you plug a teensy microcontroller into a usb hub, and into the special charging ports, you get a BSOD
<viric>
That was just the naive path of "please fix the system, bring it to the usable state" pressing of buttons
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<clever>
viric: that was the ONLY time i was able to track down the cause and fix it, the mobo vendor has a special driver for the "charging" usb ports
<clever>
said driver was probably having a segfault in kernelspace
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<clever>
and was easily uninstalled
<viric>
yes, the goal for that system I told was also to uninstall that just-installed thing
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<viric>
plenty of software reminds you of backups
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<MichaelRaskin>
I had a notebook HDD that had a special way of reminding about backups…
<clever>
viric: another more anoying bug i ran into on windows, certain games detect the lack of a mouse wheel, and decide to mess with how the wheel event behaves
<clever>
in my case, i was using synergy, with zero mice connected
<clever>
so it thinks i lack a wheel
<MichaelRaskin>
The point is that after it died, it was possible to make it work again (for some time) by various magic passes (including just waiting a day, actually)
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<clever>
then it gets a wheel up event, and infinitely scrolls to the top of the list, even when i try hitting the down arrow key
<clever>
and if it gets even 1 wheel down event, it infinitely scrolls to the bottom of the list
<clever>
the menu's are now 100% imposible to navigate
<MichaelRaskin>
Maybe middle-click would help?
<clever>
the solution, was to connected a device that claims to be a usb mouse with a wheel, and never touch it again
<clever>
in my case, it was a teensy microcontroller setup to emulate a combo keyboard+mouse
<clever>
but any wheeled mouse would have worked
<MichaelRaskin>
It would be fun to use a mouse with a mechanically broken wheel
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<jazzencat>
That was a fun discussion :)
* kmicu
ಠ_ಠ
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<jazzencat>
Hm, looking for more icon themes.
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<jazzencat>
That video's HW and program looks like what speedrunners would use when doing Tool-Assisted Speedruns.